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10:44:50","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":304,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（10時33分）主席，首先有請劉主委。"],["主席：我們再請劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：陳委員早。"],["陳委員超明：劉主委好。劉主委，你從企業界來到政府機關，尤其來到重要的內閣單位，我剛剛聽到大國發會的時代要回來了，因為我們的賴總統有特別指示，以後參加國發會，部長都要參加你所主持的各部門的討論，這個非常重要，你一定要堅持下來。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：不是謝謝我，要堅持、要做事情！你是從資誠管理顧問公司過來的，我看了天下雜誌的一篇報導，它說你常常看到別人看不到的問題，大家稱讚你。資誠會計師事務所跟資誠管理顧問公司，可以說是在國際上有名的一種聯合會計師，當然看的場面非常多，今天我要請教你一個問題，你說答應入閣的一個主要原因是你對下一代感到憂心忡忡，你為什麼會對下一代感到憂心忡忡？從民進黨執政8年，賴總統都把年輕人帶來非常有希望，結果臺灣的青年非常優秀，那你怎麼會對臺灣的下一代感到憂心忡忡？你告訴我原因，企業界要講實話，不要像政治人物這樣，講來講去，那邊一套這邊一套，來，你跟我講，為什麼你對下一代憂心忡忡？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其實這世界本來就沒有完美的時刻啦，所以我是一個比較希望不斷的改善，我自己的小孩剛好也是年輕人，我就很想說，能不能弄一個更好的未來，更好的未來，不是說現在不好，只是更好的未來，因為臺灣其實明顯的是一個幸福社會，可是在長期的發展裡面，我們怎麼去讓大家過得更好。"],["陳委員超明：我相信你也碰到很多我們下一代的問題，今天你站這個位置不敢講出來，我為什麼特別提醒你這句話？下一代你憂心忡忡，國發會主委講是這一代，表示我對我們臺灣的整體環境非常擔憂，這是第一點我要提醒你的，政治現在已經是非不分了，企業是以利潤為基礎，經營管理為基礎，政治是以選票為基礎，你先要認清楚這一點。第二點，你自己講說，在業界打滾已經有具備我們產業的實務跟前瞻趨勢的條件，那個標題幫你寫成這樣，你要把自己變成鯰魚，推動公部門的平靜池水。你有講到你太太是高層公務文官出身的，說我們文官裡面的人才非常多，水準非常高，但你怎麼說你進來要變成一個鯰魚，把公務機關攪動它平靜的池水，因為你手中握有重要資源，要好好改善，我認同你的觀點，但是你站在這裡，我要跟你說一些事情，你這句話請闡釋給我聽。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我是沒有看那篇報導啦，我不知道它為什麼這樣寫喔，但是從我過去每換一個職務的話，我都希望這個職務跟過去不一樣，我們都希望去更進化嘛，所以我……"],["陳委員超明：你是這麼重要的人物，他寫完稿一定要給你過目啊。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：媒體不會給我過目。"],["陳委員超明：天下雜誌也不是媒體，天下雜誌也不是隨隨便便的雜誌，我現在跟主委講，好好提拔你國發會的人才，這幾年他們被壓制得很慘，多做多錯，少做少錯，他們已經不願意發言，你上級指示我才來做，你要瞭解他們的心態。大家都很優秀，大家都想為臺灣、為這個國家盡一分的心力，但是政治把他們搞得無所適從，我相信在下面的官員，你們心有戚戚焉啦，我都瞭解、都談過。我要強調的是既然你是從企業界過來的，資誠會計師事務所我也很熟，所以我大概瞭解你的觀念，從這裡面去好好提拔優秀的人才，裡面很多人才，但是大家也沒有必要為這個國家現在要這麼努力，政治，我告訴你裡面的原因，你有困難可以來請教我，搞不好我點出你幾個問題，能替你解決問題。","再來，你談到賴總統有兩次跟你見面，要你在內閣會議裡面開處方，說我們不但要有點線，我們還要全面，你為我們國家經濟的發展，你處方要如何開？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：關於這個處方，我們現在就是，在我剛剛的報告有特別提到，第一個，我們要拉成長的核心主軸，我們現在拉兩個核心主軸是半導體跟AI。第二個部分，我們從我們在臺灣市占率超過15%的企業裡面，將產業撈出來，我們現在挑了六個產業，它的市占率超過，在全球市占率超過16%，我們希望把這些產業都拉到市占率超過30%以上，造成對全球的影響力。創造比較高，就是規模比較大的企業以後，讓臺灣得到更大的保障之外，也可以提供員工更好的薪水。"],["陳委員超明：我有看到裡面在談的，你說臺灣的晶圓製造、封裝測試，包括你們這邊提的，已經占了整個世界百分之六十幾，機械製造業占了IC產業，臺灣的電子產業裡面，你說要發展AI的一個設計能力，現在占全世界24%，可以翻成48%，這個比較快。但是你要知道，除了你講的AI跟臺灣晶圓的製造業要持續維持一個領先的地位，但你知道現在其他的產業不怎麼好過嗎？我不曉得傳統產業、機械產業等產業你有沒有深入了解，現在大家都一窩蜂追著改，會不會產生荷蘭病？我請你特別注意這點。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，這個的確我這邊有在注意，產業的均衡裡面我們有做過數據分析，的確有不均衡的問題。"],["陳委員超明：我有看到你做這個分析……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們需要去改善。"],["陳委員超明：我還特別去讀，看到你頭腦的思維是怎樣，結果這點不錯，要占就要占世界的首要地位，占了最起碼30%，你在那邊是這麼寫的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["陳委員超明：我講的你聽得清楚嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我聽得清楚。"],["陳委員超明：我怕我國語不標準。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我聽得懂。"],["陳委員超明：最後一個問題，主委，你說有朋友跟你講，說你當這個官叫做流水的官，這些你手下的公務人員叫做鐵打的兵，我欣賞哪一點？大家都在捧台積電，說它最棒、最好，其實我跟你講，賺的錢都是外國人拿去，我們只占了24%，但是我欣賞你講的一句話，你說台積電吸走我們臺灣大量的人才和資源，業界怨聲載道。真的是怨聲載道，它的薪水一高，第一個抓聯發科的人到台積電，聯發科又要抓其他產業的人到聯發科，我都碰到，但上一次我一直在講這個問題，大家馬耳東風，只要有錢賺，一直往前衝，我不反對，甚至我們也設立半導體學院要培養人才，結果到歐洲、美國，我們自己人才不夠了，我們還要送給他，這個是國安資料，是臺灣維持命脈的一個方式。還有一點我最不滿，我在立法院常常講，高通7億美金的罰款，我們竟然用它來投資的名義弄掉，結果它薪水特別高，高通又把台積電的人才拉到它那邊去，7億的設備我們臺灣人都用不到，7億美金！我們臺灣的政府不給家奴，寧與外人，我就不知道國家怎麼那麼怕美國，這個你好好瞭解一下。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["陳委員超明：你是產業界出身的，高通那7億美元，臺灣到底能得到什麼，能有貢獻出來，把罰款變成它的投資，然後它去補貼，薪水非常高，反而打我們臺灣的產業，我不知道政策在哪裡。你是企業界來的，我希望你講實話，官場還有很多那個，不要怕，做對的事情、為臺灣的事情，做出正確的一條路，要企業這麼想。我是把你整個讀完，我要瞭解你的邏輯，好好的發揮一下，我講的你聽懂嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：聽懂，謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：到底是有還是沒有？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有啦！"],["陳委員超明：雖然國會五法通過，但是我們都不會這樣，那實在有些太可惡的事情我們才會這樣做，但是你來好好做，我們會支持，國發會很重要，規劃國家未來的發展及前景，我希望你好好努力。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：謝謝。"],["主席：我們現在休息3分鐘。","休息（10時44分）","繼續開會（10時48分）"],["主席（陳委員超明代）：現在我們繼續開會。","請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":402,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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這個的確我這邊有在注意產業的均衡裡面我們有做過數據分析的確有不均衡的問題我們需要去改善看到你頭腦的思維是怎樣結果這點不錯"},{"start":469.637,"end":497.749,"text":"要站就要站世界的首要地位站了最起碼要30%你是在那邊這麼寫的啊是的我講的你聽得清楚嗎我聽得清楚我怕我國語不標準我聽得清楚好最後一個問題那個主席李毅所有朋友跟你講說你當這個官叫做流水的官公務人員這些你手下叫做鐵塔的兵"},{"start":498.871,"end":520.713,"text":"我欣賞那一點大家都在捧台積電說他最棒最好其實我跟你講賺的錢都是外國人拿去我們只佔了24%但是你又講了一句話我欣賞你說台積電吸走我們台灣大量的人才和資源"},{"start":522.653,"end":549.006,"text":"業界怨書宰盜真的是怨書宰盜他薪水一高第一個抓蓮花客人到台積電蓮花客要抓其他產業的人到蓮花我都碰到但上一次我一直在講這問題大家馬爾東風只有有錢賺這個一直往前衝我不反對甚至我們也把人才設立的一個"},{"start":554.196,"end":564.533,"text":"我們自己人才不夠的我們要私送給他們這個是國安資料是台灣維持命脈的一個方式還有一點我最不滿"},{"start":565.831,"end":591.277,"text":"我在立法院常常講我們高通的7億美金的罰款我們竟然用他來投資的名義把他弄掉結果他薪水特別高高通又把台積隊的人才拉到他那邊去7億裡面的設備我們台灣人都用不到7億美金咧咱台灣的政府不給我們這個"},{"start":592.898,"end":618.045,"text":"不給家農領以外人我就不知道說到這點怎麼還怕美國你這個好好瞭解一下你產業界出身的你跟高通那7億錢臺灣到底得到什麼能有貢獻出來把法緩變成他的投資然後他去補貼薪水非常高變成了把我們臺灣的產業我不知道政策在哪裡"},{"start":619.165,"end":638.299,"text":"我希望你7月就來講實話觀察還有很多那個不要怕做對的事情為臺灣的事情做出正確的一條路要7月這麼想我是把你整個我需要了解你的邏輯啊好好的發揮一下好不好"},{"start":639.059,"end":661.604,"text":"我講的這樣聽得到嗎?聽得到,謝謝到底是有還是沒有?聽得到,聽得到雖然那個無法通過,但是我們都不會這樣那時候有一些太誇張的事情在裡面,我們才這樣做但是你來好好做,我們會支持,國安會很重要規劃國家未來的發展及全球,我希望你好好努力是,謝謝委員好,謝謝感謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}