{"error":false,"id":["153364"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153364,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153364","日期":"2024-05-30","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-30T11:12:05+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-30T11:18:25+08:00","影片長度":"00:06:20","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebaffc5d642e0fa135d1766e5648a1e6b71beba37a180c9b1cdf2f4c7b5986f42ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:12:05 - 11:18:25","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":484,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時12分）謝謝主席，我們請主委。"],["主席：好，我們請主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：李委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主委好，其實也辛苦了，其實剛剛就是讓你先喝一下咖啡。請問一下，我相信也很多委員都有請教你，因為最近你在跟媒體茶敘的時候提到對於核能的看法，你有三個原則，第一個是看電夠不夠；第二個是低碳電夠不夠，還有如何減碳；第三是2050的淨零目標。你這三個原則可不可以再花點時間說清楚一點？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我解釋一下，其實我是從企業來的，因為企業其實在意的是有沒有安全穩定的電、夠不夠電，為了這個，其實一開始我們有遇到台電的時候，我也大概都有提出來，台電其實告訴我的是他們的電力準備是非常完備的，我也看到一些數據，所以它是夠的，坦白講，我在內部會議的時候，我就有提出來核電已經不是一個重要議題，因為夠不夠才是一個重要議題。接下來我們要做的是怎麼做淨零碳排的路徑的執行，那……"],["李委員坤城：因為你有提到AI發展會增加到3成的電力需求。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那個是對機房的部分，不是總體電力，總體電力的話應該不到1%，將近3%，現在是調到3%的總體增加。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我覺得這個要講清楚啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那個是機房的部分。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，我一看就說：哇，為什麼AI發展就需要3倍的電力，所以是指機房的部分……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：機房的部分。"],["李委員坤城：所以全部的電力來講呢？就增加百分之……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：全部電力，從昨天經濟部出來的是總體會增加3%，它是有上調了。"],["李委員坤城：所以電是夠用的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：電是足夠的。至於核電的部分，我的看法是要經過一個公開的討論，然後讓新的國會跟新的政府去取得一個共識，這個共識還要得到人民的共識，接下來我們必須確保安全無虞，這個安全的準備，就我瞭解要好幾年，接下來是法律要能夠核准，這個核准大概還要5年。"],["李委員坤城：本席提醒一下主委，2025的非核家園不是說是民進黨的目標，這已經列在法律裡面了，而且公投也通過了。你有提到核能是低碳的能源，是否能成為綠能，有賴於核廢料有無良好的貯存，有良好的貯存，有機會成為綠能，這段話我不太理解。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是這樣的喔！在歐盟來看的話，第一個、你的核廢料必須要有一個良好的貯存……"],["李委員坤城：是良好的貯存，還是你要找到最終處置的地方？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，最終處置場，然後……"],["李委員坤城：這個要講清楚喔，因為貯存現在……比如說現在核廢料也是有暫時的貯存啊！比如說放在新北，跟找到最終的處置場是兩個不一樣的概念喔！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，也因此其實歐盟到現在還沒有核准過綠能。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！因為現在核電還不算是綠電嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它不算綠電，它只是低碳，它不是綠電。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我們的RE100裡面，百分之百用再生能源也沒有包括核電嘛！對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有包括，因為它不是再生能源。"],["李委員坤城：它不是再生能源？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["李委員坤城：它也沒辦法找到最終的處置場啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["李委員坤城：好，再請教一下……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它找到也不會是再生能源。"],["李委員坤城：好，國民黨有提出來有關花東的3個法案，這3個法案都沒有經過大家合理的討論，2分鐘之內就通過大概上兆的、兩兆以上的法案，包含花東快還有環島高速鐵路，還有國六東延花蓮，請問一下主委，在國發會的規劃裡面，對於花東，因為我看到你們花東有推動花東離島地區永續發展，我問一下主委對於三大錢坑建設的看法是怎麼樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個部分是交通的專業，我們沒有這個專業去評估，我們……"],["李委員坤城：對，當然不是，但是……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們的作法是要它送上來……"],["李委員坤城：但是它也是在國發會裡面，對於花東的建設裡面，國民黨認為如果沒有這3個交通建設，花東就沒辦法發展，那我是問國發會的態度？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：立法院如果通過的話會經過我們的……就我瞭解會經過交通部的可行性研究，然後也有環評等等的問題以後，他們做出專業才有辦法針對……送上來……"],["李委員坤城：目前至少它沒有可行性的研究、沒有環境影響評估，當然在委員會沒有實質討論，所以當然交通部會再做專業性評估，我只是就教主委，就是在國發會的施政方向裡面，交通對於花東來講，它不是唯一發展的必要性，交通很重要，但是對於花東有更多的一些資源投入進去可以促進花東的發展，如果像這個三大交通建設，第一個、錢坑法案，不知道錢哪裡來；第二個、它是不是對於環境、自然會造成破壞，都要經過嚴密的評估，所以我只是問一下國發會主委你的看法？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我還是覺得可行性評估一定要專業的交通部來做以後，然後也要有一個很完整的環境評估，然後再經過討論，然後才會有機會來探討。"],["李委員坤城：對啦！因為國發會就是有關於全國的重要性，不論是交通建設，所有的發展藍圖其實都在國發會裡面，像我們很多的交通建設也是需要國發會的整體性評估，所以我是說看一下國發會主委的態度，對我們來講，花東的建設很重要，但是第一個是錢坑法案；第二個、對於花東的環境、自然人文都會造成影響，我請主委要多加考慮，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來我們請陳亭妃委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":402,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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主委好 其實也辛苦了 其實剛剛就是讓你先喝一下咖啡了那請問一下 我相信也很多委員都請教你 因為最近你在跟媒體查序的時候提到說對於核能的看法 你有三個原則 第一個看電夠不夠 第二個是低碳電夠不夠 還有如何減碳 第三是2050的這個淨零目標 你這三個原則可不可以再花點時間再說清楚一點"},{"start":47.791,"end":69.964,"text":"我解釋一下,其實我是從企業來的,因為企業其實在意的是有沒有安全穩定的電,夠不夠電。那其實為了這個,其實我一開始我們有遇到台電的時候,大概我們都有提出來。那台電其實告訴我的是他們的電力準備是非常完備的,那我也看到一些數據。"},{"start":71.545,"end":84.977,"text":"所以他是夠的所以坦白講我在內部會議的時候我就有提出來那核電已經不是一個重要議題因為夠不夠才是一個重要議題那接下來我們要做的是我們做怎麼做淨零碳排的路徑的執行"},{"start":85.663,"end":112.223,"text":"因為你有提到就是說這個AI發展會增加到三成的電力的需求那個是對基房的部分不是總體電力總體電力的話應該不到1%將近3%現在是調到3%的總體增加我覺得這個要講清楚那是基房的部分對啊我想說這個我一看就說為什麼AI發展就需要這個3倍的電力所以是指基房的部分基房的部分全部的電力來講就增加1%全部電力從昨天經濟部出來的是總體會增加3%"},{"start":114.604,"end":114.905,"text":"﹚李坤城"},{"start":138.74,"end":138.94,"text":"是這樣的喔﹗"},{"start":166.284,"end":190.209,"text":"在歐盟來看的話第一個你的核廢料必須要有一個良好的儲存是良好的儲存那還是你要找到最終的這個處置的地方對最終處置場然後呢所以要講清楚喔你要儲存現在比如說現在核廢料也是有暫時的儲存啊比如說放在新北啊阿跟找到這個最終的這個處置場是兩個不一樣的概念喔對對也因此其實歐盟到現在還沒有還沒有核准過綠能"},{"start":191.998,"end":209.967,"text":"對阿,因為現在這個核電還不算是綠電嗎?它不算綠電,它只是低碳,它不是綠電。對阿,我們的R1的100裡面百分之百用再生能源也沒有包括核電嘛,對不對?也沒有包括,因為它不是再生能源。它不是再生能源。對。它也沒辦法找到最終的組織廠啦。對。好,那再請教一下。它找到也不會是再生能源。好。"},{"start":211.356,"end":234.732,"text":"國民黨提出有關花東的三個法案這三個法案都沒有經過大家合理的討論兩分鐘之內就通過大概上兆的兩兆以上的法案包含花東快還有環島高速鐵路還有國六東延花蓮請問一下主委在國發會的規劃裡面"},{"start":238.536,"end":249.513,"text":"我看到你們花東有推動花東離島地區永續發展那我問一下主委對於三大乾坤建設的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":251.356,"end":269.375,"text":"這個部份是交通的專業,我們沒有這個專業去評估,我們的做法是要他設上的。但是他也是在國發會裡面對於花東的建設裡面,國民黨認為說如果沒有這三個交通建設,花東就沒辦法發展,那我是問說這個國發會的態度。"},{"start":272.076,"end":274.819,"text":"目前至少他沒有可行性的研究沒有環境影響評估當然在委員會沒有實施討論"},{"start":291.079,"end":317.595,"text":"當然交通部會在做這個專業性評估那我只是就教這一個主委就是說在國發會的這一個這個施政的這一個方向裡面交通對於花東來講它不是唯一發展的必要性交通很重要但是對於花東有更多的一些資源投入進去可以促進花東的發展那如果像這一種這一個三大交通建設第一個"},{"start":318.155,"end":322.497,"text":"我還是覺得可惜性評估一定要專業的交通部來做以後然後也要有一個很完整的環境評估然後再經過討論然後才會有機會來"},{"start":344.288,"end":344.309,"text":"來探討"},{"start":365.511,"end":376.537,"text":"對我們來講花東的建設很重要但是這個第一個是淺坑法案第二個對於花東的這個環境自然人文都會造成影響那我請這個主委要多加考慮好不好是好謝謝謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}