{"error":false,"id":["153368"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153368,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153368","日期":"2024-05-30","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-30T09:29:32+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-30T09:40:44+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:12","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba2a617fc7f54b54ed4622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e91374462a95f0ae2b031845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:29:32 - 09:40:44","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":166,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時29分）主席，麻煩請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：主委好。今天要討論這個議題，我覺得那個範圍很大，尤其是節能減碳中間這個「碳」，現在是一個很夯的話題了，可是你瞭不瞭解，其實並不是大家都朝著一致的看法，像美國總統拜登他當然非常重視這個議題，民主黨很重視這個議題，因為從高爾開始，就一直在講全球暖化的問題；但是川普卻認為這是一個假議題，當然川普的講法有點極端，但這是兩種完全不同的思考方式，我們臺灣照現在的講法，都一面倒地朝向淨零這個方向，這樣子是對的嗎？有沒有另外一種思考？是不是要稍微平衡思考一下呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。其實有關減碳，就我所知，就學術或是在很多方面，其實是有爭議的，不過，現在的主流思維還是跟我們現在所做的方向是一致的。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，主流思維要減碳，然後現在碳權要買賣，有人就說這真是一筆好生意啊！比爾蓋茲在美國買了非常多的農場，他準備要大賺一筆，因為農場只要有種樹，只要種綠色植物，在碳的買賣上，他就可以有源源不斷的收入，也有這樣子的講法。","同一個時間、全世界也沒有一致的標準，如果臺灣對碳權的要求這麼的先進、這麼的前衛，甚至要達到跟歐洲最先進地方一樣的標準，它的優勝劣敗，有沒有評估過？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個部分的話，現在以金管會的立場，我們大概會從兩個方向走，一個就是金融業的本身，另外就是我們透過上市櫃公司的管理去導引大家往這個方向走。"],["吳委員秉叡：有，你的報告裡面就是這樣講。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，當然我們的目標其實設得比較遠以後，但是我們希望，既然這是國家的政策，我們就逐步來推動。當然評估的部分，我們是按照我們金管會自己規劃的進程在進行。"],["吳委員秉叡：好。你有沒有聽過一個概念叫綠色通膨？因為這一些都是要成本的，我舉個例子，我剛剛為什麼說全世界標準不一樣會產生問題，你拿這樣簡單的標準要求發展中國家，它有能力可以遵守嗎？要求中國，它有辦法可以遵守嗎？要求非洲、中亞這些國家，它有辦法可以遵守嗎？顯然短期之內不可能，當它不遵守的時候，臺灣的貿易處在一個先天不利的地位，被中國長期欺負、打壓，所以很多國際之間的貿易組織我們是進不去的，我們臺灣本身的製造業的關稅平均起來就比別的地方的製造業要再高，當其他國家不用這些碳費、不用這一些成本的時候，臺灣就急著要把它抓進來，這在某一個角度，是不是在大戰略上面，要讓臺灣的製造業離開臺灣？因為成本墊高了之後，當然有一部分會說，我在技術上可以超越，我是非常先進的企業，我不受這個控制，我不受這個影響，但是，還是有一些為了2%、3%利潤在苦苦求生、謀生存的這些中小企業，在這個被墊高之後，它如何生存呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們在推動永續金融裡面，有一個很重要的就是要協助企業永續轉型，透過我們的投融資貸放來協助，所以像我們推動一些所謂綠色的放款、綠色的金融商品，其中某一部分就是要協助我們的企業來達到轉型，當然誠如委員講的，有一些在所謂轉型上會有比較大的困難的產業，我想這個可能不全然是金管會所能主政，但是我們就從永續金融角度，我們會儘量提供一些投融資的貸放……"],["吳委員秉叡：轉型跟理論講起來都很容易，在學術殿堂或是國會裡面，這樣誇誇其談都很容易，問題是到了製造業、到了這些中小企業，它面臨的就是生存的問題，淨零轉型貸款給它，要求它要升級，有這麼容易嗎？我記得之前有政治人物說2030年所有的燃油機車都不能用了，就引起多大的風暴，你知道嗎？","好，我現在再問你，就先不講中小企業了，講中鋼就好，中鋼一年的碳權要繳多少錢？照目前這樣算起來，是不是至少幾十億以上？因為中國的大量傾銷，我們的鋼本來就已經很難生存了，在全世界幾乎都沒有競爭力了，因為中國是用國家在外面補貼了，它是一個不公平的貿易，這時候我們再把自己加上去，跟你競爭的那個企業不用，它不用去負擔這些成本，到底要如何競爭呢？現在要問的是這樣的問題，當然，我今天問的這個問題可能跟顯學、通識說的大家就是要走淨零轉型，要走淨零轉型也是可以談，問題是你有沒有思考到另一面的問題？這個速度如果太快或是這些配套如果不足，每一家中小企業就是面臨這些員工的生存問題，臺灣到底要不要製造業，你是要趕出去嗎？還是臺灣都不要低階製造業？或是像美國一樣，過去因為全球化，讓它的製造業到全世界去發展，現在才開始用大量的政策補貼來要求製造業重返美國。所以這個思考不是這麼簡單，就是要淨零轉型，大家都希望環境越來越好，有誰希望環境壞？但是問題是要做得到啊！在這一方面如果你們催太緊、太快的時候，我很擔心臺灣社會到底受得了受不了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：從金管會的立場，對於剛才講的金融機構和上市櫃公司的管理上面，我們現在也有體察到這一點，所以我們都是採取鼓勵的措施，而不是用強制的措施，針對剛剛講的ESG評鑑或永續金融評鑑，我們都是採用鼓勵、導引的方式，畢竟牽涉到碳權、碳費及碳稅問題，都不是金管會所能主政的。"],["吳委員秉叡：我知道不是你們能主政的，但是因為今天要談這個問題，我在財政委員會主要就是要問你，因為你要瞭解、思考的是全體，而不是……，政治這個東西，你要走在眾人前面一步，可以引導眾人，讓眾人看得到你，走得太遠看不到的時候叫先知，自古先知都是寂寞的，因為跟不上。","同樣的邏輯思考方式，我再請教你另外一個問題，獨立董事新制上路，2024年要先適用初次申請股票上市櫃公司、實收資本額達新臺幣100億公司以及金融保險業上市櫃公司，你們現在規定獨立董事人數不得少於3人，且不得少於董事席次三分之一，獨立董事半數以上連續任期不得超過三屆。當你們提出這樣的政策，學界立刻就說人才荒，獨立董事的人要從哪裡來？哪裡有這麼多的獨立董事可以用？是不是要思考這個問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，其實我們對於獨立董事任期有一個上限規定，是要考慮到其獨立性的維持，再來，證基會有一個獨立董事人才庫，上面也有協助上市櫃公司去尋找獨立董事。"],["吳委員秉叡：夠不夠？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在應該有1,500位符合資格的候選人在那個資料庫上面。"],["吳委員秉叡：你總共要用多少人？如果照這個標準，你總共要用多少人？一千七百多家上市櫃公司，到2027年的時候全部至少要有3個以上，那就要五千多人，而且有一半以上不可以連任三屆以上。"],["彭主任委員金隆：主要是現在根據法律規定，1個人可以兼任4個獨立董事，我們有1,500人，我們初步評估現在的量能應該是夠的，只是適不適合是由他們各個公司來評估。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個人才庫有一千五百多人，他們就可以成立獨董俱樂部，跟公司沒有關係，我有這個資格，你們就得來聘我，不然會發生人才荒，不夠啊！這是供給和需求的問題，這是簡單的數學問題，所以我具備這個資格，假設有一天我不當立委了，我是律師就可以掛進這個人才庫，不相干、不認識的這些公司就來請我當獨董，是這樣的概念嗎？我在公司完全沒有股份，公司的經營好壞我要如何負責？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛那個人才庫只是提供一個資訊給上市櫃公司參考，至於適不適合、專長符不符合是由……"],["吳委員秉叡：律師哪有專長不符合？公司的董監事，律師、會計師都是非常符合資格的條件，我只是要跟你講，制度的推行有它的合理性，但是要循序漸進，你要抓住那個tempo，有時候太急太趕。另外，過去公司法的設計，我大學時候唸的公司法，他會去當董監事是因為對這間公司有比較大的持股，所以公司好他也會跟著好，公司不好他會跟著不好，因為這是我的財產。如果現在公司都大量用獨董，在公司沒有持股也可以，都用這樣的概念的時候，公司的經營成敗我就不care了，公司垮了，我只是獨董沒得做而已，對我的財產沒有損失，所以這個也是要思考的點。過去的制度有其存在的原因，新的制度有要達到的目的，這個要如何能夠融合在一起，有勞你們多多費心了，好不好？謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：在未來的制度設計，我們會納入來考慮，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員的質詢。","請賴委員士葆質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 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"現在要問的是一個這樣的問題當然我今天問的這個問題可能說跟這個顯學啦 跟同事說大家就是要走淨零轉型走淨零轉型 要談也可以談啊問題是你有沒有思考到另一面的問題這個速度如果太快或是說這一些的配套如果不足"},{"start":355.885,"end":374.852,"text":"每一家的中小企業就是面臨這些員工的生存問題製造業到底 台灣到底要不要 你是要趕出去嗎還是說台灣都不要低階製造業還是要像美國一樣過去全球化讓它的製造業到全世界去然後現在才開始用大量的這個政策補貼要求製造業重返美國"},{"start":377.712,"end":396.457,"text":"這個思考不是這麼簡單說我這個淨體轉型大家都希望環境越來越好有誰希望環境壞但是問題是要做得到啊那這一方面如果你們吹太暗的時候吹得太快我很擔心台灣社會到底受得了受不了"},{"start":398.518,"end":422.279,"text":"我們從金管會的立場我們對剛才講金融機構跟上市櫃公司的管理上面我們現在也有體察到這一點我們採取都是用鼓勵的措施而不是用強制的這樣措施就剛剛那個講這個ESG評鑑或永續金融評鑑我們都是採用鼓勵的方式用導引畢竟剛才牽涉到比如說我們的探權、探費還有探稅的問題都不是金管會所能主政"},{"start":423.021,"end":445.223,"text":"我知道不是你們的主政我今天因為今天要談這個問題在談這個問題我就主要要問你嘛因為你要了解你要思考的是全體而不是政治這個東西你要走在眾人前的一步可以引導眾人眾人看得到你走得太遠看不到的時候比較先知啊自古先知都是寂寞的因為跟不上啊"},{"start":446.072,"end":453.114,"text":"我在同樣的邏輯思考方式回來請教你另外一個問題你獨立董事現在要弄心智嘛"},{"start":453.956,"end":454.756,"text":"有提出這樣的政策嗎"},{"start":481.53,"end":489.601,"text":"然後學界立刻就說那人才荒啊你獨立董事的人要從哪裡來啊哪裡有這麼多的獨立董事可以用啊是不是要思考這個問題"},{"start":493.099,"end":515.106,"text":"謝謝委員那其實我們對於這個獨立董事任期就有一個上限規定是要考慮到他的獨立性的維持那再來我們有那個政績會有個獨立獨立董事人才庫上面也有協助上市櫃公司去尋找他的獨立董事的現在應該有1500位符合資格的候選人在那個資料庫上面"},{"start":515.691,"end":529.787,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":530.748,"end":558.599,"text":"有一半以上不可以連任三次以上喔對對不能連任三屆那現在是主要是我們現在根據我們的法律規定一個人可以兼任四個獨立董事所以我們有1500個人這樣我們初步的評估應該是現在是量能是夠只是說適不適合那是由他們各個公司來評估那所以這個人才顧1500多人他們就可以成立獨統俱樂部跟公司沒有關係我有這個資格你們就得來騙我不然你人才方不夠啊"},{"start":559.981,"end":581.141,"text":"這是供給跟需求的問題啊這個是簡單的數學問題嘛所以我具備這個資格假設有一天我不當立委了我律師我就掛進人才庫那不相干不認識的這些公司就來請我當讀董是這樣的概念嗎那我對公司完全沒有股份公司的經營好壞我要如何負責"},{"start":582.23,"end":587.311,"text":"律師哪有專長不符合公司的董事、董監事、律師、會計師都是非常符合資格的條件那我只是要跟你講說制度的推行"},{"start":604.255,"end":631.984,"text":"有它的合理性但是要循序漸進你要抓住那個tempo啦你有的時候太急、太趕另外一點過去公司的設計就我大學的時候念的公司法回去當董監事是因為我對這間公司我有一個比較大的持股所以公司好我會跟著好公司不好我會跟著不好因為是我的財產那如果現在都大量用獨董公司沒有持股也可以都用這樣的概念來的時候那公司經營的成敗"},{"start":634.744,"end":636.985,"text":"吳秉叡委員的質詢接著我們請賴世保委員質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}