{"error":false,"id":["153388"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153388,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153388","日期":"2024-05-30","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-28","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":28,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-30T11:29:38+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-30T11:42:10+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:32","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebaa3dd52209bd13f964869c0f3e297fc60446d6a815e91374488766db62afb6ce35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:29:38 - 11:42:10","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":808,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時29分）謝謝，麻煩法務部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長好！部長，我今天本來想直接跟你討論一下司法的輔導問題，但是因為剛才你又講了一堆，我本來以為這國會改革已經翻頁了，我們今天大家都不要來談這件事，今天早上有記者問我想法，我就說完全尊重行政院要不要覆議，以及民進黨團要不要聲請釋憲，我說這個是憲法的規定，我完全尊重，我們也不應該有一句說不可以這麼做的話出來，因為這就是法治，我們是法治國，我是唸法律，我非常尊重法律。但是我覺得翻頁就翻頁了，為什麼還要在那邊扯這個？部長，我在司法圈20年，我比其他112位立委更瞭解您的狀況、更瞭解您的想法以及您的一些想法的傾向，我想我比誰都更瞭解，但是我一直希望，一個新的內閣，我都期待我們就依法行政，然後能夠中立的處理任何一件事情，而不是一搭一唱的那樣回答。好，沒關係，我覺得就算了，我還是尊重你是部長。","今天我來講一個事情，我覺得國會改革到現在如果真的還要再來講的話，我跟你講，我真的覺得執政黨是創意大賽，這段時間從毀憲亂政，一路延伸到抗中保台，舔共習近平，到現在連世界人權都跑出來了，這根本就是創意大賽，這不是在討論法條，我就說了，90%我們討論法案的時間都在講抗中保台，沒人跟我談法條，然後現在對外說黑箱立法都不談法條，我說真的我沒有辦法理解，還好現在國會都有直播，大家可以回去一條一條拿出來放出來聽，是誰在亂說話？","再來我還要再講一個東西，可不可以不要再秀下限了？你拿一個國會特偵組來談是不是違反權力分立，我覺得這真的是笑死人！中天電視台有一個節目叫《民間特偵組》，你說民間怎麼可以私設刑堂搞特偵組？它是一個理念，是一個名詞嘛，那你不要叫立法院的什麼特偵組，那你叫「超級特偵組」可不可以？改個名字嘛！這跟權力分立有什麼關係？部長，你可以這樣一搭一唱，我真的服了你！特偵組的法律依據是法院組織法，它是一個法制設計下的機關，立法院依據如果立法成立後的真相調查權所進行的調查，把自己叫作……，我們組一個團體叫「立法院的在野特偵組」，這個跟權力分立有什麼關係？部長，你不能講這種話，我們都唸法律的。我剛剛在那邊聽，我不會去打斷正在發言立委的說話時間，但是我沒有辦法接受你剛剛那樣的回答，這跟權力分立有什麼關係？你這樣講，中天的《民間特偵組》賴麗櫻主持的節目，是不是那個就叫民間私設刑堂？叫做私刑正義嗎？這就不是嘛！這是一個名詞，如果今天國會改革法案過了，它就是去行使一個法律上面給它的調查權，讓立法委員去行使這個權力，至於在野的立法委員他們想叫什麼名字，這個也沒有設在法院組織法裡面，也沒有設在任何一個法律裡面，請問這個違反什麼權力分立原則？部長，從你嘴巴講出這種話，我甚至不知道接下來我要怎麼去面對你，跟你談接下來這些法律的事情，因為我覺得基本上你的立場就不中立啊！不然你告訴我，這個違反什麼權力分立原則？","再來，我上次也很欣賞你講的一句話，法務部在釋憲之前，你們不能講什麼法條是不是你們不能做，或者是你法務部跳出來說：這個違憲，我不幹！這是不行的嘛，一定是大法官宣告違憲，我們才說這個違憲所以不能做。既然我們都是唸法律的，我們都非常重視程序正義以及各種東西，那法務部對於國會改革法案的批評可不可以麻煩我們依照一般的程序來？如果行政院要提什麼覆議，那我們欣然接受，因為這個是憲法增修條文裡面的權力，如果要釋憲，我們也欣然接受，因為這個是國家法律給予的權力，那我們都這樣做就好了嘛，而不是你在這邊講這個。對於你剛剛的那個講法，你會認定說這個是違反權力分立，我真的不能接受，我完全不能接受。也不要在那邊騙我，而且部長我跟您報告，在座好多法官、檢察官，會看直播的也很多法官、檢察官，很多法律學者，你這樣講，他們聽了以後會怎麼嘲笑我們今天在這邊做的這件事情？所以我沒有辦法接受你認為如果在野自己成立一個特偵組，這個叫做違反權力分立，我沒有辦法接受！而且這個東西也是在如果今天國會五法、立法院調查權成立生效之後，才有可能依據法律去做這個事情，那這個又違反了什麼權力分立？這個是法務部可以講的嗎？你要講的話，至少改天您當大法官的時候，那您再來跟我們上課，告訴我們這個為什麼違反權力分立，我沒意見，因為大法官本身就釋憲。那今天我真的要說，我沒有辦法接受您的這個說法！","我剛剛也講了，我說真的是創意大賽，說這些法案是違反世界人權、說什麼毀憲亂政，我說這真的是創意大賽。今天林濁水會出來講那一句話，說這個東西是民進黨奮鬥30年，2016年以前的民進黨的法案也是這樣，結果你突然8年之後告訴我這個東西這麼的該死，十惡不赦，不但違憲，還跟習近平勾串，然後還違反世界人權，我說：天啊！那2016年以前，你這個執政黨在幹什麼？你既然要立這個法出來，你既然要搞這樣的立法，結果8年後在野黨完成你當年的志願，你現在回過頭來說在野黨這麼做是不對的！我真的聽不下去。","不好意思，部長，我剛講話比較重一點，我還是非常尊敬您是我以前的長官，但是我真的覺得行政還是要中立啦，我覺得不管什麼作為，國家能夠穩定一定是制度長治久安，制度長治久安的狀況就是不管任何政黨執政應該就是走同一套制度。今天我不管在哪一個政黨，但我覺得我們應該一起對付的是壞人，而不是協助執政的人，這是我對於司法的見解。所以這段時間不管其他的同事跟我談什麼司法的案件，我第一件事一定是維護法院以及檢察署的立場，我說這不能干涉，這種個案都不能干涉，不能多說，一直以來我個性都這樣。","部長，不好意思喔！我說的比較重，但是我剛說的都是憑我良心講的話，因為我從心裡就是不認為怎麼講一個名詞就叫做違反權力分立，所以我才會引了中天電視台那個節目的例子，如果你要這樣子，我們就說那是不是我們改個名字嘛，就不要叫「特偵組」，叫「超級特偵組」！"],["傅委員崐萁：讓部長回答嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，請問一下為什麼違反權力分立？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我是認為法律的制定，我們都要去遵守，尤其是這種的法律應該是屬於有憲法爭議、五權憲法爭議的部分，有一些不同的意見，我們是認為要能夠符合權力分立的原則，這是五權互相制衡的。"],["吳委員宗憲：你剛不是這樣講啊！所以部長我跟你說，這是公開直播的，我們沒有任何人在帶風向，這是公開的，如果您敢在這邊直接講，那沒關係你就講。我現在看出來一件很明白的事情，就是有人非常的無聊，司法特偵組是法院組織法依據它所設立的，至於民間或者是其他黨派，或者是在野的人，或者是誰喜歡自己組一個說我們大家來搞一個兄弟會叫做特偵組，這個跟違反權力分立都沒有關係。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個特偵組跟權力分立是沒有……，法院組織法有沒有規定特偵組跟權力分立沒關係……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，沒有錯，但是他剛剛問你的不是這樣，他剛剛問你的是說在野黨要成立一個在野的特偵組，然後你在那邊扯權力分立。部長，不然你今天回去再看一下剛剛他問你的，然後我就當作你剛剛答錯了，但是我跟你講我從心裡就不這麼認為，如果今天立法院的這個修法過了之後，在被大法官宣告違憲之前，其實他的任何作為都有其法律依據，至於在野的這些人他們要組一個團隊，自己要叫什麼名字，那個是他高興就好嘛，這個跟權力分立根本沒有任何關係。關於立法院的調查權跟司法的調查權彼此之間有沒有五權分立上的矛盾，這個由大法官來解釋，部長，應該是這樣吧？說實在我不認同你剛剛說的，如果你要用這種態度一路走下去，那沒關係，我們也不是傻子啦，大家都是念法律出身的，那我們就依法論法。","我的個性就是這樣，如果我今天在這邊講錯任何一句話，歡迎你們拿法律學者的話來打我，我這個人不喜歡說謊，我不喜歡亂講話，我更不喜歡明知故問，或是明明知道是這樣卻故意裝作不懂的來帶風向，我很不屑幹這種事情，對於所有的事情，我的個性是直來直往，做錯事就認錯，我的個性是這樣子！而不是像有一些人，今天法律規定明明不是這樣、人家做的明明不是這樣，然後可以帶風向、扯一些五四三，我今天看到的就是這樣子啦！所以上次人家問我問題，我才會說……說真的，我以前辦過的壞人，可能沒有……算了，那個話不講下去了！謝謝部長，還是一樣要說部長您辛苦了，我知道您的位置是真的不容易、真的蠻辛苦的，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：下一位請傅崐萁委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-28","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","林月琴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","陳俊宇","謝龍介","沈發惠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─\n如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135401_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.8615937500000004,"end":5.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.636593750000003,"end":12.653468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.653468750000002,"end":12.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.73784375,"end":13.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.10471875,"end":15.454718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.77096875,"end":31.840343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.49846875,"end":35.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.16034375,"end":46.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.85909375,"end":48.799718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.900968750000004,"end":54.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.672218750000006,"end":58.384718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.67159375000001,"end":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謝謝 麻煩 法務部長"},{"start":12.957,"end":35.009,"text":"委員好好 部長好 部長 這樣啦齁本來我本來想直接今天要跟你討論一下司法的輔導這個問題齁但是因為剛剛你又講了一堆我本來以為說這國會改革已經翻頁了我們今天大家都不要來談這件事我們就今天早上有記者問我問我想法我就說 完全尊重"},{"start":36.229,"end":64.896,"text":"行政院要不要復役要不要那個以及民進黨團要不要申請釋憲我說這個是憲法的規定我完全尊重我們也不應該有一句不應該的說不可以這麼做的話出來因為這就是法治我們是法治國我是念法律我非常尊重法律但是我覺得翻頁就翻頁了為什麼還要在這邊扯這個那部長我在司法圈20年您的狀況我比其他112位的立委更了解您的狀況"},{"start":66.416,"end":91.897,"text":"更了解您的想法以及您的一些想法的傾向我想我比誰都更了解但是我一直希望一個新的內閣我都期待我們就依法行政然後能夠中立的處理任何一件事情而不是一搭一唱的這樣回答沒關係那我覺得就就算了我還是尊重你是部長但是我覺得"},{"start":93.589,"end":115.727,"text":"今天我來講一個東西我覺得國會改革到現在如果真的還要再來講的話我跟你講我真的覺得執政黨是創意大賽這段時間從迴憲亂政一路延伸到抗中保台、舔共習近平到現在連世界人權都跑出來了"},{"start":116.648,"end":145.31,"text":"這根本就是創意大賽這不是在討論法條啦我就說了90%我們說討論法案的時間都在講抗中保台沒人跟我談法條然後現在對外說黑箱立法都不談法條我說真的我沒有辦法理解還好現在國會都有直播大家可以回去一條一條拿出來放出來聽是誰在亂說話好那再來我還要再講一個東西可不可以不要再秀下線了"},{"start":147.045,"end":173.607,"text":"你拿一個國會特徵組來談是不是違反權力分立我覺得這是不是笑死人中天電視台有一個叫民間特徵組那你說民間怎麼可以私設集團搞特徵組他這是一個理念是一個名詞嘛那你不要叫立法院的什麼特徵組那你叫做超級特徵組可不可以改個名字嘛這跟權力分立有什麼關係部長你可以這樣一搭一唱我真的服了你"},{"start":175.102,"end":197.658,"text":"特徵組的法律依據是法院組織法他是一個法制的機關法制設計下的機關這個立法院他依據自己如果立法成立後的生效後的調查權所進行的調查他把自己叫做我們組一個團體叫立法院的"},{"start":199.136,"end":224.598,"text":"在野特徵組這個跟權力分立有什麼關係部長你不能講這種話我們都念法律的我剛剛在那邊聽我不會去打斷在發言的立委的說話時間但是我沒有辦法接受你剛剛那樣的回答這跟權力分立有什麼關係那如果你這樣講中天的民間特徵組賴麗英主持的那個節目是不是那個就叫民間失色行堂"},{"start":225.643,"end":253.14,"text":"叫做施行正義嗎這就不是嘛這是一個名詞他如果今天國會改革法案過了他就是去行使一個法律上面給他的調查權讓立法委員去行使這個權利嘛那至於在野的立法委員他們想叫什麼名字這個也沒有設在法院組織法裡面也沒有設在任何一個法律裡面請問這個違反什麼權利分立原則部長從你嘴巴講出這種話"},{"start":254.341,"end":271.506,"text":"我這甚至不知道接下來我要怎麼去面對你跟你談這些接下來法律的事情因為我覺得你基本上你的立場就不中立啊不然你告訴我這個違反什麼權力分立原則再來我上次也很欣賞你講的一句話"},{"start":272.788,"end":287.732,"text":"法務部在釋憲之前你們是不能講什麼法條他是不是你們不能做或者是你法務部跳條這個違憲我不幹這是不行的嘛一定是大法官宣告違憲我們才說這個違憲所以不能做所以"},{"start":289.076,"end":289.256,"text":"主席"},{"start":307.236,"end":307.256,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":327.366,"end":350.184,"text":"我真的覺得你會認定說這個是違反權利分立我真的不能接受我完全不能接受那也不要在那邊騙我而且部長我跟您報告在座好多法官檢察官會看直播的也很多法官檢察官很多法律學者你這樣講他們聽了以後會怎麼再嘲笑我們今天在這邊做這件事情"},{"start":352.148,"end":364.83,"text":"所以我沒有辦法接受你認為再也如果成立一個再也自己成立一個特徵組這個叫做違反權力分離我沒有辦法接受而且這個東西也是在如果今天國會無法"},{"start":366.428,"end":388.937,"text":"的立法院調查權成立生效之後他才有可能依據法律去做這個事情那這個又違反了什麼權力分立這個是法務部可以講的嗎你要講至少改天您當大法官的時候那您再來跟我們上課告訴我們這個為什麼違反權力分立我沒意見因為大法官本身就釋憲那今天我真的"},{"start":389.977,"end":404.249,"text":"我跟您報告,我沒有辦法接受您的這個說法另外我剛剛講的,我說真的是創意大賽那另外,說這些法案違反世界人權、違反什麼我剛剛講的什麼違憲亂證,我說這真的是創意大賽"},{"start":410.339,"end":428.335,"text":"今天林卓水會出來講那一句話說這個東西是民進黨奮鬥30年2016年以前的民進黨法案也是這樣就你突然8年之後告訴我這個東西這麼的該死、十惡不赦不但違憲還跟習近平勾串然後還違反世界人權"},{"start":429.176,"end":454.841,"text":"我說天啊那2016年以前你這個執政黨你在幹什麼你竟然要立這個法出來你竟然要搞這樣的立法結果8年後在野黨完成你的當年的志願結果你現在回過頭來說在野黨這麼做是不對我真的聽不下去喔不好意思部長我剛剛講話比較重一點我還是非常尊敬您是我以前的長官但是我真的覺得"},{"start":457.896,"end":474.785,"text":"就是說行政還是要中立啦因為我覺得不管什麼作為國家國家能夠穩定一定是制度是長治久安制度長治久安的狀況就是不管任何政黨執政應該就是走同一套制度"},{"start":476.271,"end":504.194,"text":"我自己今天我不管在哪一個政黨但我覺得我們應該一起對付的是壞人而不是協助那個執政的人這我對於司法的見解啊所以這段時間不管其他的同事跟我談什麼司法的案件我第一件事一定是維護法院以及檢察署的立場我這不能干涉這種個案都不能干涉不能多說我一直以來我個性都這樣所以部長"},{"start":507.796,"end":533.898,"text":"不好意思喔 就是我說比較重但是我剛說的都是憑我良心講的話因為我從心裡我不認為你講一個名詞就叫做違反權利分立所以我才會贏了中天電視台那個節目的例子那如果你要這樣子 那我們我們就說 那是不是 那我們改個名字嘛就不要叫特徵組 叫超級特徵組部長回答嘛 你要回答部長 請問一下 為什麼違反權利分立"},{"start":539.954,"end":540.294,"text":"你剛剛不是這樣講嗎?"},{"start":569.215,"end":596.924,"text":"所以部長我跟你說啦齁你現在我跟你講這是公開直播的我們沒有任何人在帶風向這是公開的我現在就如果你敢在這邊直接講那沒關係你就講齁我現在我現在知道一件我現在看出來一件很明白的事情啦就是有人非常的無聊司法特徵組是法院組織法依據他所設立的"},{"start":598.035,"end":625.621,"text":"那至於民間或者是其他黨派或者是在野的人或者是誰喜歡自己組一個說我們大家來搞一個兄弟會叫做特徵組這個跟違反權力分立都沒有關係這個特徵組跟權力分立是沒有關係法院組是要有沒有規定特徵組跟權力分立沒關係對沒有錯沒有錯但是他剛剛問你的不是這樣他剛剛問你是說在野黨要成立一個在野的特徵組然後在那邊扯權力分立部長"},{"start":627.264,"end":627.284,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":636.363,"end":659.483,"text":"你今天立法院的修法過了之後在被大法官宣告違憲之前其實他的任何作為都是有他的法律依據至於說在野的這些人他們要組一個團隊自己要叫什麼名字那個是他高興就好嘛這個跟權力分立根本沒有任何關係至於"},{"start":660.524,"end":687.658,"text":"立法院的調查權跟司法的調查權彼此之間有沒有權力上面的五權分立上的的矛盾這個由大法官來解釋部長應該是這樣吧所以我說這種我不認同你剛剛說的啦那我覺得如果你要用這個態度一路走下去那沒關係我們也不是傻子啦大家都是念法律出身的那我們就依法論法那"},{"start":690.285,"end":716.335,"text":"如果我的個性就這樣如果我今天在這邊講錯任何一句話歡迎你們就拿法律學者的話來打我那我這個人我不喜歡說謊我不喜歡亂講話我更不喜歡明知故問或明明知道是這樣故意裝作不懂的來帶風向我其實很不屑幹這種事情我所有事情我的個性直來直往嘛做錯事就認錯我個性是這樣子啊"},{"start":717.866,"end":735.578,"text":"不是說有一些人今天法律規定明明不是這樣人家做的明明不是這樣然後可以帶風向扯一些五四三我今天看到的就是這樣子啦所以我上次人家問我問題我才會說說我以前辦過的壞人可能沒有算了那個話不講下去了"},{"start":742.057,"end":748.939,"text":"謝謝,謝謝部長,還是想說部長您辛苦了,我知道您的位置是真的不容易,真的蠻辛苦的,謝謝部長。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}