{"error":false,"id":["153394"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153394,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153394","日期":"2024-05-30","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-28","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":28,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-30T11:42:25+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-30T11:56:35+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:10","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebaa0e4ed2ce86227944869c0f3e297fc60446d6a815e913744020e7f4b4ca561565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"11:42:25 - 11:56:35","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":826,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（11時42分）主席，今天本來是要討論一個蠻嚴肅、值得社會關懷的議題，我想召委今天排這個議題非常值得大家讚嘆，也就是「鐵窗裡的少年──如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」的專報，但是我剛剛聽到部長的答復，我真的覺得政治在這個地方可以無限上綱，是不是請部長來一下？"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長就職多久了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：還沒滿兩個禮拜。"],["傅委員崐萁：應該說還沒有滿十天。部長，您所在的位置是全國檢調體系都唯你馬首是瞻，你要特別謹慎你的言行，尤其這是神聖的國會殿堂，不要在這裡配合執政者來營造你的立場跟帶一些錯誤的社會示範，讓下面起而效尤、逢迎拍馬、迎合上意。司法的風氣要調整，我想部長首當其衝要以身作則，你認為對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：司法本來就不是逢迎拍馬，我想這是我們堅守的一個信念與原則。"],["傅委員崐萁：謝謝，那請問一下，您今天是部長還是大法官？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我是部長。"],["傅委員崐萁：你可以取代大法官的職務在這裡發言嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：大法官有大法官的職權，我是針對委員的詢問，我們必須要……"],["傅委員崐萁：立法院的修法提案、三讀通過的案子，是可以由你來決定有沒有符合三權分立嗎？有沒有符合毀憲亂政嗎？是你可以決定的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個在社會上是有一些意見，我們是希望整個法律上的一個……"],["傅委員崐萁：社會上有意見？一個法律人在沒有明確的法律出來以前，你可以在國會殿堂以部長的名義取代大法官來表示大法官的意見嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們沒有要取代大法官的意見。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，那請你謹言慎行。部長，我請教一下，現在你接任部長，目前有這麼多的青少年犯罪越來越嚴重，包括孩子可以去把人家割喉，臺中捷運有隨機的傷人案，我們的教育出了問題，這八年的教育已經出問題，針對我們的法制面，部長有沒有一些想法？針對今天的主題，有沒有什麼想法？能夠讓青少年的犯罪降低而不再犯，有沒有什麼想法？請簡短說明。"],["鄭部長銘謙：法務部所收治的就是屬於非行少年刑事案件觸法的一些少年，在整個社會安全網我們是收治這些少年，至於預防少年犯罪的部分，那可能就是整個社會安全網由各權責部會大家共同來做。以法務部來講，既然有非行觸法的少年，我們在少觀所或者是在少年矯正學校，就是依照社會安全網的這些理念，針對就學的部分，我們希望他能夠做一個銜接，而不是在收治的過程中讓他失去就學的權利，所以我們用108課綱來幫助他們銜接，不要因為收治而失去學習的一些權利。另外，我們的矯正學校也希望培養他們技術性的技能，同時也協助他們考到證照。"],["傅委員崐萁：矯正的部分本來就是法務部非常重要的一個課題跟一環，針對毒品防治的部分，現在青少年的犯罪也是持續在61.94%，未成年的犯罪率還是達到61.9%的占比。今天時間有限，你是新任的部長，要有新的氣象，針對青少年毒品的防治，究竟該如何嚇阻？請部長針對這個部分給本席一個正式的書面報告，因為這個事情已經講了很多年，但是毒品的問題一直沒有降下來，而且再犯率不斷的發生，從一個叫做防治、一個叫做矯正之後，如何再回籠？部長，本席這樣講清楚嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：清楚。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，請將完整的正式資料送給本席，本席一定還會再請教。另外，對於矯正的部分，本席還是要拜託部長，關於現在我們矯正處遇整體的情況，為什麼很多人再犯率還是這麼高？原因就是這些人到了社會上之後，還是要有一技能夠謀生，現在在裡面包括摺紙蓮花這些東西，在社會上它是沒有辦法銜接的。我過去在花蓮縣政府服務，我讓地方所有的公務機關，甚至軍營、軍人、國防部我們都合作，不用到四十五歲退伍，我們在營就給他第二專長訓練，都由縣政府來支援，不管是烹飪，不管是汽修，甚至修飛機，很多大廚，甚至園藝，甚至有機農業栽種，都培養他們能夠有一技在身，當時也協助國防部讓更多的人願意從事軍旅，未來不只四十五歲、四十八歲以後的終身俸，還有第二專長，他可以有其他的收益。所以部長，本席提醒你，如果要讓這些人不要再犯，你一定要讓他有一技之長能夠在社會上生存下去，要去思考現在的矯正教育到底是哪裡出了問題，為什麼再犯率會這麼高？有沒有問題？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我來努力，我對這個議題很有興趣，我本來就有在做，針對預防的部分，我本來就是長期一直都在關注，委員提到的這些具體的部分，我們會再來檢視。"],["傅委員崐萁：請部長將完整的計畫給本席，本席很樂意跟你一起來討論，把再犯的防治提升起來。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：另外，法務部本來就應該要中立，本席再強調一下，司法是國家社會正義最後的防線，一定要秉持公正。部長及秘書長，本席要請教一下，透過中央社這麼多媒體報導，本席不請教不行啦！郭台銘的事件，參選總統預備賄選罪全國發生數十起，幾乎都是易科罰金就了事，唯獨現任屏東縣的議長，這不是重罪，為什麼收押了五個月？而且現在起訴以後，依然在收押，賄選的事件有需要起訴以後還要收押嗎？秘書長請回答。"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員說明，這個涉及到個案……"],["傅委員崐萁：不是、不是，你不能永遠以個案來回答，今天既然已經起訴了，如果起訴的資料不齊全，為什麼可以起訴？既然已經起訴，證據齊全，那為什麼還要收押？請問一下秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為這個……"],["傅委員崐萁：國際人權兩公約不是無罪推定嗎？是不是？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為羈押有……"],["傅委員崐萁：秘書長，本席請教你，國際人權兩公約是不是無罪推定？是不是？"],["吳秘書長三龍：無罪推定應該是一個大原則。"],["傅委員崐萁：一個大原則，好。既然已經起訴了，應該證據齊全，為什麼還在收押？"],["吳秘書長三龍：至於說個案要收押，法官有裁量權啦！"],["傅委員崐萁：你現在一直在強調個案，那本席現在不跟你談個案。在此請教秘書長及部長，根據各媒體報導，這不是誰講的，而是在法院正式公開審理，從錄音檔有聽到檢察官對偵訊人說：大局為重，給點時間來處理、查證。這一句其實也還好啦！但請問一下部長，檢察官講的「大局」，什麼叫大局？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不瞭解這個個案，這個大局……"],["傅委員崐萁：不是，這不是個案。本席請教你，一個正常的檢察官會不會講什麼叫大局？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我對案情不瞭解，這個大局……"],["傅委員崐萁：這個媒體已經報導成這樣子了，這不是說你瞭不瞭解，即使不瞭解你還是要給本席答復，今天沒有回答，還是要有書面回答。這是貴部的檢察官對著偵訊人錄音、錄影的情況之下講的，所以才在法院開驗的時候聽到錄音檔是這樣公開審理，在場所有的記者都聽到，所以共同予以報導，國會當然要關注。什麼叫大局？請部長回答。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們再來瞭解。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，你再瞭解。再過來第二句話：涉及政治案件，不是一個人可以決定的。什麼叫政治案件？檢察官心裡還有政治嗎？不是依法辦案嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們再來瞭解。"],["傅委員崐萁：還要再瞭解？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，因為這個……"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，每一天的資訊這麼多，但是關於法務部的就這麼一、兩件，你也關心一下嘛！你知道社會對這個質疑，你是不是第一時間就要趕快瞭解清楚，不然你怎麼到國會來備詢呢？已經引起軒然大波，你可以置若罔聞嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：凡是社會注意的事情，我們都會……"],["傅委員崐萁：再講一次，檢察官說：這是政治事件，不是一個人可以決定的。那請問誰可以決定？是部長可以決定還是誰可以決定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不清楚這個，所以我必須要再去瞭解……"],["傅委員崐萁：錄音檔就這樣播出來了，檢察官就是這樣說的。再過來是「上面都同意」，所謂「都」就不是一個人，他的上面不是一個人，他說「都同意再放人」，上面有哪些人？要都同意是哪些人？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚個案。"],["傅委員崐萁：現在已經不是個案了，這已經是矚目事件，已經涉及司法調查是否公正，這是很嚴重的問題，這已經涉及司法調查是否公正，部長今天你可以回答你不清楚，但請你針對這個案子給本席一個正式的書面回答，本席今天正式提出，在這裡錄音錄影，我們在國會正式詢問這樣的問題，檢察官可以這樣做嗎？檢察官可以這樣做嗎？檢察官可以這樣做嗎？政治辦案的檢察官？還是國家的檢察官？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們再瞭解，再做一個釐清，這部分委員要我們……"],["傅委員崐萁：儘速給本席書面回答，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員。","郭昱晴委員、郭昱晴委員、郭昱晴委員。","沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員。","所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束，委員質詢時要求提供之相關資料或書面答復，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","部長，還是一樣要提一件事情，我還是蠻肯定您的一個政策，就是對於三專生再留任的政策，這在基層檢察官反應非常好，這真的可以留下目前戰力最強的檢察官，因為戰力強的檢察官很多都走掉，而您的這個制度真的可以有效留下很多有戰力的檢察官，光就這一點，我不敢叫做給你肯定，我沒有那個資格啦，但我真的是非常支持以及感謝您的這個制度。因為很多我們以前的同仁都有跟我說這件事，所以我在這邊要謝謝部長這個非常棒的政策，謝謝部長。","委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或書面答復，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員陳俊宇、謝龍介、沈發惠所提書面質詢均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-28","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","林月琴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","陳俊宇","謝龍介","沈發惠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─\n如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135401_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.41909375000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.99971875,"end":14.290343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.15096875,"end":18.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.70721875,"end":22.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.57596875,"end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那請你謹言慎行部長我請教一下現在你兼任部長現在有這麼多的這個青少年犯罪越來越嚴重包括這個孩子啊可以去把人家割喉台中捷運有這個隨機的這個傷人案"},{"start":196.786,"end":219.996,"text":"我們的教育就出問題這8年的教育已經出問題我們的法制面上面法制面上面部長有沒有一些想法針對今天的主題有沒有什麼想法能夠對青少年的犯罪能夠降低而不再犯有沒有什麼想法簡短說明"},{"start":222.045,"end":239.61,"text":"我們法務部所收治的就是屬於非性的一個少年少年刑事案件的一些的一些的處罰的少年那我們所掌管我們在整個社會安全網我們是在收治這些少年至於整個少年的一個預防的這部分"},{"start":240.185,"end":268.861,"text":"那可能我們就是整個社會安全網有各權責的一個部會大家來共同來做那以法務部來講我們就既然有非性有觸犯這個少年我們在少關所或者是在少年矯正學校那我們就是依照這些的社會安全網的這些一個理念我們就在就學的這部分我們希望他不要有能夠做一個銜接而不是說來在一個收治的過程中"},{"start":269.581,"end":273.703,"text":"這個矯正的部分本來就是法務部非常重要的一個課題跟一環"},{"start":299.153,"end":327.108,"text":"現在這個毒品防治的部分在青少年犯罪也是持續在61.94%這個青少年未成年的部分現在還是這個犯罪率達到61.9%的佔比毒品防治今天時間有限本席要求你是新任的部長要新的氣象對青少年毒品的防治"},{"start":328.53,"end":352.918,"text":"如何賀詞請部長這個部分給本席一個正式的書面報告因為這個事情你講了很多年但是毒品的問題一直沒有下降下來而且再犯率不斷的發生這個從一個叫防治一個叫做矯正之後如何再回籠"},{"start":355.398,"end":382.153,"text":"本席這樣講得清楚嗎請這個正式的資料完整一點給本席因為本席一定還會再請教另外對於矯正的部分本席還是要拜託部長現在我們整體的矯正處遇的整體的情況為什麼很多再犯率還是這麼高原因就是這些人到了社會上以後"},{"start":383.704,"end":409.502,"text":"還是要有一計能夠謀生現在在裡面是包括什麼指責那個什麼指連花這些東西在社會上他是沒有辦法銜接的我過去在我過去在花蓮縣政府服務我讓地方所有的這些公務機關甚至軍營軍人、國防部我們都合作不用到45歲退伍"},{"start":411.308,"end":440.169,"text":"我們在在營就給他第二專長訓練都由縣政府來支援不管是噴刃不管是汽修甚至修飛機很多大廚甚至園藝都甚至有機農業栽種都培養他們能夠有一技再生當時也協助國防部讓更多的人願意從事軍旅"},{"start":441.243,"end":463.037,"text":"未來不只45歲、48歲以後的鐘聲鳳還有第二專長他可以做其他的收益所以部長本席提醒你要讓這些人不要再犯你一定要讓他有一技之長能夠在社會上生存下去要去思考現在的小鎮教育到底哪裡有出問題為什麼再犯率會這麼高"},{"start":465.032,"end":491.81,"text":"有沒有問題這部分我來努力我想我對這個議題是很有興趣我本來就是在做預防的這部分我本來就是有一直在長期做一個關注希望部長一個完整的提到的這些計值的這部分我們會來再檢視完整的一個計畫給本席本席很樂意跟你一起來討論把這個再犯的防制能夠把它提升起來另外我們還是要問一下"},{"start":493.467,"end":520.271,"text":"法務部本來就應該要中立本席再強調一下司法是國家社會最後正義的防線一定要秉持公正我們請秘書長一起好嗎?抱歉抱歉部長、秘書長本席請教一下這個透過中央社這麼多媒體報導本席不請教不行"},{"start":522.264,"end":550.404,"text":"一個郭台銘的事件參選總統預備賄選罪全國發生數十起幾乎都是醫科罰金都了事唯獨現任的屏東縣的議長這不是重罪為什麼收押了五個月然後現在起訴以後依然在收押"},{"start":552.34,"end":578.754,"text":"會選的事件有需要起訴以後還要收押嗎?秘書長請回答向委員說明說這個涉及到個案不是不是不是我們一個政堂你不能永遠以個案來回答那今天既然是已經起訴了那如果起訴的資料不齊全為什麼可以起訴?"},{"start":580.134,"end":585.239,"text":"那既然已經起訴證據齊全那為什麼還要收押請問一下秘書長"},{"start":589.447,"end":609.602,"text":"國際人權兩公約不是無罪推定嗎?是不是?是不是?不是。秘書長,北溪請教你嘛。國際人權兩公約是不是無罪推定?是不是?無罪推定這個應該是一個代言者。一個代言者。好。那既然已經起訴了,應該證據齊全了。"},{"start":611.741,"end":626.312,"text":"為什麼還在收押?因為那質疑說個案他要收押好好好你現在一直在強調個案那本席就不現在不跟你談個案也請教秘書長也請教部長請問一下各媒體報導這不是誰講的是在法院正式公開審理錄音檔有聽到檢察官"},{"start":643.073,"end":667.061,"text":"對偵訊人說大局為重給一點時間來處理查證這句其實也還好啦那請問一下部長部長檢察官講的大局什麼叫大局我不了解這個個案這個大局不是這不是個案本席請教你一個正常檢察官會不會講什麼叫大局"},{"start":668.911,"end":694.389,"text":"什麼叫大局?我對案情不了解,這個大局...這個媒體已經報導這樣子了,這不是說你了不了解了不了解你還是要給本席今天沒有回答還是要有書面回答這是貴部的檢察官對著偵訊人錄音錄影的情況是要講的所以才在法院開宴的時候聽到錄音檔是這樣公開審理在場所有的記者都聽到"},{"start":696.269,"end":717.724,"text":"所以共同的報導 國會當然要關注什麼叫大局請部長回答我們再來瞭解好好 你再來瞭解再過來第二句話涉及政治案件不是一個人可以決定的什麼叫政治案件檢察官心裡還有政治嗎不是依法辦案嗎這部分我們再來瞭解"},{"start":722.472,"end":724.113,"text":"反正社會注意的事情我們都會"},{"start":747.915,"end":777.177,"text":"再講一次檢察官說這是政治事件不是一個人可以決定的那請問誰可以決定是部長可以決定還是誰可以決定我不清楚這個所以我必須要再去了解錄音檔就這樣播出來了檢察官這樣說的檢察官這樣說的再過來上面要同意不是要同意上面都同意都那不是一個人他們上面不是一個人都同意再放人上面有哪些人"},{"start":778.359,"end":806.933,"text":"要都同意是哪些人部長這個我不清楚個案好現在已經不是個案了這個已經是矚目事件已經涉及司法調查是否公正這是很嚴重的問題這不是個案這司法調查是否公正部長今天你可以回答你不清楚請你"},{"start":808.288,"end":826.973,"text":"把這個案子給本席一個正式的書面回答本席今天正式提出在這裡錄音錄影我們在國會正式的來詢問這樣的問題檢察官可以這樣做嗎檢察官可以這樣做嗎檢察官可以這樣做嗎政治辦案的檢察官還是國家的檢察官部長"},{"start":838.612,"end":845.796,"text":"我們再了解 再做一個釐清這部分委員要我們來做 建訴給本席書面回答"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}