{"error":false,"id":["153395"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153395,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153395","日期":"2024-05-30","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-30T11:46:57+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-30T11:58:09+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:12","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba3b11567edc2a93421766e5648a1e6b71446d6a815e913744d538382fbf97c6c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:46:57 - 11:58:09","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":638,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時47分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請劉主委。"],["主席：我們再請劉主委。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委好。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：今天本席特別看了一下業務報告，第一點就是創新經濟，其中包括五大信賴產業，昨天我在教育及文化委員會也討論到關於用電的概念、能源的部分，經濟部自己親口說現在因為考量到半導體及AI用電的需求大，因此預估2023年到2029年整體用電需求年均成長率已經上修到3%，一年的成長率是3%。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：2023年到2029年，我們不算複利的概念，至少6年的時間要上升18%，然而18%的部分，到目前為止，即便是賴清德總統到2028年的任期都要有15%的用電成長，這是第一個。第二，今年7月核三廠的1號機要停止運轉，核三廠的2號機在明年也要停止運轉，到目前為止、此時此刻，臺灣的核電發電量占全體臺灣用電的6.2%。剛剛我們講到2028年要上升15%的用電量，但是現在又要降低6.2%的用電，加起來有20%的缺口。還有淨零減碳也是國發會非常重要的目標，之前上一任主委在上一任政府的任內是2050年淨零碳排的規劃者，主委，你清楚我們到2030年的減碳路徑、減碳目標要達到多少的下修嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們要達到24%加減1%的目標。"],["洪委員孟楷：24%加減1%就是25%嘛！對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：23%至25%。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在全國的發電排碳大宗，其中就是燃煤、燃氣發電，也就是我們的台電。2025年的非核家園規劃有高達八成是用火力發電，所以到了2030年你要再下修四分之一的排碳量，但是我們現在又是火力發電、火力全開，我想請教，一來一往之際，這樣的數據沒有任何政治因素，完全都是數學、完全都是數據，我做夢都會驚恐，因為這代表臺灣在未來五年內將面臨到非常大的能源缺口，主委，你怎麼看？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：分兩個階段，第一個是電的部分，其實我在幾次會議中都詳細問過……"],["洪委員孟楷：你要講三方面嘛！第一，電夠不夠。第二，低碳電夠不夠。第三，淨零的目標。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：根據目前台電的規劃，它很肯定是一定夠的。其實包括院長當時也問過，電是夠的，因為我本身不是主管機關，但我相信……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你是相信台電的講法？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我一定相信，因為我沒有什麼……"],["洪委員孟楷：你只能相信。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我沒有什麼資料，但是我們回頭看，至少從我出生到現在還沒看過台電有跳票的時候。"],["洪委員孟楷：台電沒有跳票嗎？台電連跳電都來了！蔡英文政府時代4次、5次的大跳電都來了，台電沒有跳票嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：應該是電網的問題吧！至少聽到的都是如此。我比較有在負責的是路徑的問題，其實我們正針對路徑的問題進行盤點，盤點完的差異有幾條路徑在走，第一個路徑是我們會實驗藍、綠氫的發電，我們現在只是填充而已。藍、綠氫的發電是一個零碳排的發電……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席都理解，你也說6月6日要與中研院再做進一步的討論，但是現在藍、綠氫的部分，兩個部分，第一是技術成不成熟，還待商榷。第二，它的發電成本高不高。目前看起來它的發電成本是與再生能源、太陽能的發電差不多，平均1度電差不多是4.5元左右，對比其他的發電模式，成本都還是比較高，所以我們才會想到，即便藍、綠氫的發電技術能夠在短時間內成熟，當然這個非常的困難，國際趨勢在目前還沒有，即便日本是氫能發展最前面的大國，到目前為止日本的氫能發電也都沒有占到他們的十分之一。","主委，現在我很務實的請教，講了那麼多，我要務實的請教，如果你們今天的報告或是你為賴清德總統四年任內規劃國家發展策略要做國家希望工程，第一個首要是創新經濟，而創新經濟裡面的半導體、人工智慧，你又把它變成是五大信賴產業的其中兩大項，它是如此的需要能源，但現在能源的缺口每年都在成長，再加上核三廠的1號機與2號機在今年及明年都要停止運轉，我們到底哪裡有底氣可以做得到？本席當然希望我們的產業要發展，但重點是如果到目前為止國發會都還沒辦法主導或建議賴清德政府要不要捨去非核家園這個神主牌，我們有其他管道可以做到嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其實我們得面對現實，按照現在的法令，如果……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席就是很面對現實，才會提出這個問題來請教你的意見。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：如果現在的法令沒有任何改變的話，核電依法必須要shot down，這是現實的問題嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：你會不會建議政府部門提出修法的要求？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為我們現在的電以台電的規劃是夠的，如果是夠的就沒有提出修法的理由。"],["洪委員孟楷：有把它算入每年成長3%，未來五年內將成長15%的需求嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：依據台電在開會時的說法是有的。"],["洪委員孟楷：也有？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有的。"],["洪委員孟楷：你相信嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：至少從過去我自己……"],["洪委員孟楷：根據你在產業的經驗，主委，本席非常尊重專業，如果你只是丟給台電，說它認為是15%，我們常講一句話是眼見為憑嘛！它的15%要從哪裡來？尤其是過去，無論是電網的韌性不足，國人會懷疑我們的電到底夠不夠或者是捉襟見肘，否則怎麼會一個小小的跳電或事件就變成全臺電網的停擺。如果未來五年要成長15%，今年及明年又少了6%的核電，一來一往是20%，你認為五年內台電有準備多出20%的發電量嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：按照它的說法，其實它準備的量是有的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是夠的，就是火力發電、火力全開，所以我們沒有辦法減碳。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：減碳的部分，另外向委員報告，現在已經有一些廠商開始裝設藍、綠氫的儲能作為備援，這個東西也是另外一種綠電的發展，如果我們將來鼓勵往這方面走的話，它會讓我們的淨零路徑應該是有機會達到的。我們現在已經有安裝了、已經在用了。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，那個比例有多少，我都不好意思戳破啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，的確是剛開始。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我很務實的提出來，我只是想請教，因為你在這幾次的媒體報導中都已經講得非常好，我也認同你務實的想法，看起來你是沒有擁抱非核家園這塊神主牌，還是你有？本席不要誤會。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：如果按照……"],["洪委員孟楷：你會不會堅持非核家園？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：按照2025年的計畫，在2025年shot down之後，其實就沒有核電廠了，以目前的現實面來看就是如此。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你也不會建議？以國發會主委的高度，你來自產業界，你也不會建議這四年要重啟核電？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它決定於我們的電準備得夠不夠，看起來……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！所以我剛剛講了，你相不相信台電說他們的準備是夠的？如果會有二成的用電缺口，第一，你相信台電就代表你認為準備是夠的，在這四年的任期，假設你可以做滿，在這四年的任期內你不會建議重啟核電。但如果你認為這二成的電力缺口是有疑慮的、是不夠的，或是你再進一步去了解台電的狀況，發覺可能會有缺口，可能你就會建議重啟核電。但政府現在是你們在當家、你們在執政，最重要的是不管你用再生能源或其他能源，產業能不能相信這個能源是穩定的，進一步說服產業投資在臺灣。你來自產業、你一定更了解產業的想法嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有，其實我們都不斷的在溝通。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你到底現在……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：今年的供電狀況是……"],["洪委員孟楷：你不要講今年嘛！我們現在是講到2028年，至少賴清德總統的第一任任期結束嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們得面對一個實際的現實，假設缺電的話，其實要重啟核電，按照整個法令程序，最起碼要再五年，絕對是緩不濟急。如果是我的話，我不會建議。"],["洪委員孟楷：你不會建議重啟核電？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：為什麼？我們要建議的是一個能盡快先達到供電穩定的方式，基本上，我從台電的計畫來看，它一直有在monitor這一段。因為來不及的問題，你根本來不及啊！其實它已經沒辦法再考慮了。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席今天只是想確認國發會主委的態度，我不帶任何預設立場，因為個人都有各自的預設立場，但是如果今天這個是你的態度的話，那麼就要準備充足，未來有一天如果產業認為臺灣的能源不夠或是能源有缺口而導致你們的政策改變，你就要負起相關的責任。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的、是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我們期待你剛剛講的。我希望如果之後有機會，主委可以進一步去了解台電。因為你是國家發展的火車頭，產業的部分、能源的部分以及你過去講到的這三方面，我都希望你站在產業的角度好好思考並做整體評估，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請謝衣鳯委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":402,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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望我們的產業要發展但重點在於是如果到目前為止我們國發會都還沒有辦法去主導或說建議賴清德政府要不要捨去非核家園這個神主牌的話我們有其他的管道可以做到嗎"},{"start":360.372,"end":361.253,"text":"您會不會建議政府部門提出修法的要求"},{"start":379.782,"end":380.742,"text":"您相信嗎?"},{"start":401.617,"end":427.884,"text":"您產業的經驗本席非常尊重專業所以如果說你只是丟給台電說他認為15%我們常講一句話眼見為憑嘛他的15%哪裡來尤其是過去確實我們不管是電網的韌性不足以及相關的國人會懷疑是說我們到底電夠不夠或是捉襟見肘否則怎麼會一個小小的跳電或事件就變成是全台電網的一個停擺"},{"start":429.155,"end":440.231,"text":"那如果說未來5年要成長15%今年明年又少了6%的核電一來一往是20%你認為5年內台電有準備多出20%的發電量嗎?"},{"start":443.647,"end":468.619,"text":"按照他的說法,他其實準備的量是...是夠的,就是火力發電、火力全開所以我們沒有辦法減碳減碳另外跟委員報告,現在還有一個就是現在已經有一些廠商也開始裝藍綠青的這個除能做備援那這個東西也是另外一種綠電的發展那如果我們將來在鼓勵上面走的話他會讓我們的金融路徑應該是有機會達到"},{"start":471.121,"end":487.762,"text":"現在已經有安裝了,已經在用了。這個比例有多少?我都不好意思戳破了。我只是想請教,因為您在這幾次的媒體報導都已經講得非常好。我也認同你務實的想法。看起來你是沒有擁抱非核家園這樣的神主牌。"},{"start":489.838,"end":512.371,"text":"還是你有?粉絲不要誤會。你會不會堅持非核家園?按照2025年的計畫,其實2025年shutdown之後就沒有核電廠了。以目前現實的面子。所以你也不會建議以國發會主委的高度,你來自產業,你也不會建議這4年要重啓核電。他決定在於我們的電準備夠不夠。"},{"start":513.251,"end":541.012,"text":"是啊,所以我剛剛講啦我剛剛講的是說你相不相信台電說他們準備是夠的嘛如果說要有兩成的用電缺口第一你相信台電那就代表是說你覺得準備夠所以你這四年的任期假設你可以做滿四年這四年的任期你不會建議重啟核電但如果說你認為說這兩成的電力缺口是有疑慮的是不夠的或是說你再進一步去了解台電的狀況發覺可能會有缺口"},{"start":541.392,"end":559.811,"text":"那可能你就會建議衝擊核電但是政府現在是你們在當家你們在執政啊所以你一定要讓而且最重要是什麼最重要的是不管你用再生能源或其他能源來講產業能不能相信這個能源是穩定的進一步來說服產業投資在台灣"},{"start":561.752,"end":578.518,"text":"您來自產業,您一定更了解產業的想法嗎?有,其實我們不斷都有在溝通是,所以您到底您現在今年的供電狀況是大家知道你不要講今年嘛,我們現在講到2028年至少賴清德總統第一任的任期嘛對,我們得面對一個實際的現實是就是說"},{"start":581.259,"end":606.603,"text":"如果今天假設缺電的話其實要重啟核電那按照整個法令程序他起碼要在5年他絕對是緩不及急所以我如果是我我不會建議你不會建議重啟核電為什麼因為他得我們要建議的會是一個怎麼樣盡快達到先達到供電穩定那基本上我從台電的計畫來看他是有有很他一直有在在在在monitor這段"},{"start":610.359,"end":624.373,"text":"本席今天只是想要確認我們國發會主委的態度我不帶任何預設立場因為有些個人都有各自的預設立場但是如果說您今天這是您的態度的話"},{"start":625.154,"end":625.554,"text":"是的是的"},{"start":642.264,"end":667.327,"text":"好,我們期待你剛剛講的我希望啦還是可以諸位如果說之後有機會可以再跟台電進一步的瞭解因為您是國家發展的火車頭所以說產業的部分、能源的部分以及您過去講到這三方面我覺得都希望你站在產業的角度來好好的思考做整體的評估好不好好謝謝,謝謝諸位謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}