{"error":false,"id":["153415"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153415,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153415","日期":"2024-05-30","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-30T12:28:24+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-30T12:36:32+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:08","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba6a822a6a68ef04291766e5648a1e6b71446d6a815e913744420fad759d9e24575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:28:24 - 12:36:32","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":823,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時28分）謝謝主席，有請劉主委。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委，我想跟你請教一下，現在我們看到很多的企業，包括台積電、聯電及鴻海，他們都宣示要加入RE100，所以加入RE100的臺灣企業可以說是愈來愈多，甚至有些企業還自我要求，包括台積電本來預計是2050年達到RE100，它說要提早10年，如果以這樣來說的話，為什麼這些企業都要積極的進入RE100的自我要求呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我的前公司也是RE100的企業，主要都是基於企業社會責任，第二個是大家認為對於地球暖化必須扮演重要的責任，所以大家就加入。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以大家會加入。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：請教主委，RE100所包括的其中一個是承諾100%使用再生能源，這個再生能源到底包不包括核電？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：再生能源不包括核電。"],["蔡委員易餘：再生能源不包括核電，也就是這些企業未來使用的電就是不使用核電，他們會100%使用再生能源，再生能源不包括核電，也不包括火力發電。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：也不包括部分的水力發電，只要水力不能抽蓄回來，它也不是再生。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，抽蓄，就是那個水力發電。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：抽蓄的就可以，因為水可以再抽上來，沒有抽上來的、流掉的也不是再生，風力、太陽能都屬於再生。"],["蔡委員易餘：以這樣的定義來說，事實上我們這幾年來努力推動的包括風力、太陽能正是RE100所需要的能源，是這樣嗎？沒有錯吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：台積電等好多企業未來要用的電如果要達到RE100，就是要百分之百使用太陽能或是風電，或是其他更新、更環保的能源出來，沒有錯吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，這是第一個。第二個，現在歐盟已經陸續把核電認為是綠電的一種。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有，還沒有，它是要得到最終貯存的才可以提出來，目前還沒有。"],["蔡委員易餘：前提就是要有最終貯存。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，它只是有機會，還沒有……"],["蔡委員易餘：當核電有最終的貯存，才有辦法進入到綠電。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：它有這個前提在這邊，以目前臺灣整體大小、人口密度，我們有辦法找到一個適當的最終貯存地點嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我不是那麼理解，可能要再問……"],["蔡委員易餘：主委，這個可以理解，當我們沒有辦法處理，因為最終貯存也不可以到國外，必須在國內，要在國內。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前我們只能做乾式貯存，還沒有到。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們目前都是乾式貯存，沒有一個地方是最終貯存。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：而且乾式貯存還沒有解決全部。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以在這個前提之下，我們的核電也沒辦法進入歐盟成為它認為已經有最終貯存的核電，有辦法最終把這個東西處理得比較好。所以看起來臺灣目前的核電，除非又有更先進的核融合的技術產生，不然以現在這樣的核電，沒有辦法最終貯存的話，基本上就不符合歐盟定義的綠電，也不屬於RE100要求企業要使用100%再生能源的電力，沒有錯吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：以這樣的前提之下，我覺得臺灣整個用電的發展，目前走的這條路就是正確的，主委？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得我們要對自己的腳步有信心，很多事業的發展，風電、綠電的發展也許在開發的過程中，有些生意人用了比較不乾淨的手段，必須要被繩之以法，我們都主張這要嚴辦，他如果用不乾淨的手段取得發電的資格，這個要辦，要把他發電的資格拿回來，我們都支持。但是你不能因為這幾個老鼠屎，就說以後我們都不要吃粥了，以後我都不吃粥，因為吃粥可能就會有老鼠屎，怎麼可以變這樣呢？所以我覺得我們產業的用電政策還是要抓緊方向，不能夠一直調整、一直調整，然後又找不到最好的方法，這反而是讓我們好不容易跨出的這一步，而且已經走到再生能源比例一直在攀高的時候，我們反而說這樣起來是不對的，不能這樣，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個就是我想跟主委聊一下，畢竟國發會於國家而言像是開車時你是掌握方向盤的，整個方向是由主委來訂定。我一直覺得臺灣有一個單位特別保守，就是食藥署。食藥署的保守在於，先不說是藥品還是保健食品，這都由他們未來去定義，可是我們看到臺灣很多人會到國外去買藥品回來，包括現在有很多人說，我們先不要說療效，就像褪黑激素、像現在很有名的NMN（β-煙醯胺單核苷酸）療法，好多人會去國外買回來，為什麼呢？因為食藥署不允許在國內銷售，又因為不允許在國內銷售，就創造很多騙局，主委可以去網路google一下，你打NMN這3個字，就會出現NMN騙局。這個騙局是怎樣？因為臺灣沒辦法合法銷售，所以有很多不肖廠商，也不知道裡面的成分有沒有，但是標籤就這樣貼上去，便有很多人趨之若鶩，因為這個東西要去國外買回來，如果是水貨回來再轉手賣都好貴，很多人趨之若鶩說好棒，有這種可以買到又比較便宜的，我去跟他買，結果後來發現療效又沒有符合應該要有的標準，食藥署把很多東西一些比較先進的、科學的一些技術都拒之千里之外，不讓它進來，後來就會變成有一些不肖廠商，反而是對人民不利，但是食藥署這個門就是一直關著，我不知道為什麼要這樣關。","主委，你大概簡單講一下我剛剛講的這幾個，我覺得你都可以去查看看。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我們會去檢核並請食藥署回復給委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我覺得這個應該是可以去討論一下，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔）：謝謝。","現在請賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員不在現場。","報告委員會，發言登記的委員除了不在場之外，其餘都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。林岱樺委員、陳冠廷委員所提的書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":402,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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的前提之下我覺得我們台灣的整個用電的發展目前走的這條路就是正確的"},{"start":264.341,"end":286.416,"text":"主委,我是覺得我們要對大家的腳步,我們要有信心。我們不能說大家,就是說很多事業的發展,你說風電、綠電的發展,也許在開發的過程中,有些生意人他已經用了一些比較不乾淨的手段,然後他必須要被繩之以法。這個我們都主張,這個要研辦。"},{"start":288.086,"end":297.531,"text":"他用不乾淨的手段去取得到發電的資格,這要他頒,這要他發電資格,要他拿回去,這我們都支持啊。但是你不能因為這幾個老鼠屎,你知道我們整個醫療都沒得吃嗎?"},{"start":306.752,"end":307.212,"text":"議員：蔡易餘：蔡易餘："},{"start":337.548,"end":339.249,"text":"我一直覺得台灣有一個單位特別保守就是食藥署"},{"start":360.698,"end":389.587,"text":"十二屬的保守就是說事實上我們看到有好多齁所謂我們先不要說是藥品還是保健食品這些都讓他們未來去定義可是我們看到台灣人很多會到國外去買藥品回來包括說現在有很多人說因為不要說療效我們就說像退黑激素像現在有很有名的叫做NNN這個叫做什麼燕瘤這名字我不會念NNN療法喔好多人去國外買"},{"start":391.349,"end":401.261,"text":"去國外然後去買回來為什麼呢?就是我們食藥署不允許在國內銷售那又因為不允許在國內銷售就創造了很多騙局"},{"start":403.421,"end":429.771,"text":"你只要主委你可以去網路你去google一下你打這三個字NNN他就會出現的叫做NNN騙局這個騙局是怎樣?因為台灣沒辦法合法銷售所以就有很多不肖的廠商他就在裡面的身份有沒有也沒有但是他就那個標籤在你logo這樣打起來就很多人趨之若鶩因為這個東西現在要去國外買回來然後如果水貨回來再轉手賣都好貴"},{"start":432.582,"end":458.324,"text":"就好多人會趨之若鶩說好有這種可以買的比較便宜我去買結果後來發現說他的療效又沒有符合應該要有的標準就變成說我們的食藥署把很多東西聚資一些比較先進的一些科學的一些技術我們都把他聚資千里之外都不讓他進來然後後來就會變成說有一些不孝的廠商"},{"start":459.448,"end":459.468,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}