{"error":false,"id":["153435"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153435,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153435","日期":"2024-05-31","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-16","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第16次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":16,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第16次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-31T15:15:02+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-31T15:45:51+08:00","影片長度":"00:30:49","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63981a741ba438d06a3fb1a5cc9c71e7e212215d61b9ffb2389ed5ff4c6e923b6ec955fd4b0c23b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"15:15:02 - 15:45:51","會議時間":"2024-05-31T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第16次會議（事由：一、行政院院長報告施政方針並備質詢。\n二、5月31日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、本次會議不處理臨時提案。）","gazette":{"lineno":926,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（15時15分）本席剛好是林口的立委，大家好。謝謝院長，請卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長好。院長，您有一個稱號叫「大師兄」。"],["卓院長榮泰：不敢當。"],["洪委員孟楷：金庸小說裡面大師兄令狐沖桀驁不拘、瀟灑自在；棒球場上有個大師兄叫林智勝，他是帶動氣氛的老大哥，也是中華隊的強棒，都非常有特色。您自己怎麼看「大師兄」院長，您自己的特色是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：不敢當，我只能接受人民的付託，在這裡向立法院負責。"],["洪委員孟楷：向立法院負責？"],["卓院長榮泰：嗯。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以做任何事情向立法院負責，重點在於立法院是代表全國的民意最高機關。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以行政機關向民意機關負責，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。那我想請教，現在我們的民主，你認為臺灣的民主是死、還是活？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣民主蓬勃地發展。"],["洪委員孟楷：蓬勃地發展嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：要走向一個健康的方向。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席也非常認同，因為我覺得我們韓院長講得很好，臺灣的民主有自癒的能力，我也說臺灣的民主會自己找到出路，如同生命會找到出路。但很可惜、更遺憾的是，像上個禮拜幾次國會改革的時候，我們看到執政黨委員頭上綁的布條寫著「民主已死」，我們想這是一個蓬勃發展、生機的時候，怎麼會是執政黨委員講的民主已死？不過現在看到國會改革法案通過之後，傳出有可能行政院會提覆議，有可能民進黨會提釋憲，賴總統有可能在還沒有釋憲結束之前不會依法來到立法院做國情報告，看起來執政黨府院黨都要來杯葛國會改革法案，是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，不是「杯葛」兩個字。如果我們看到民進黨立法院黨團的委員先進們在國會裡面這樣的表現，能夠去體會到是不是在審查相關法案的過程當中他們有表示的機會，不容許他們充分地表示他們的意見，或者是在過程當中他們感受到應該可以更進步……"],["洪委員孟楷：其實並沒有不容許啊！院長，您在這個過程……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以他們這種表現，我予以尊重，但我希望不管是兩院之間或是國會內部，都能夠很平順地進行。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我請教、我確認一下，您今天會提出覆議，最主要的理由是因為民進黨黨團在國會裡面沒有充分地表達，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：我今天沒有提出覆議。"],["洪委員孟楷：我知道，我是說未來你有可能提出覆議，最主要的理由是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然還是要看整個大院的來文，但是外界、國人關切它是不是在程序上不夠完整、它是不是有侵害到個人的權益、它是不是有違憲的部分，以及它對於將來兩院互動當中是不是會產生一些不良的效果。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，請容許本席提醒您，第一，議事如果有問題的話，我們今天的院長及秘書長就不會讓議事進行；如果今天有違憲與否的話，也不是您、我說了算，而是大法官。我們尊重民進黨黨團如果要提違憲的釋憲說明，但是在還沒有釋憲之前，對於依法通過的法律，行政院如果要提出覆議的話，其實要對自己的決策負責……"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員理解。"],["洪委員孟楷：您有看到高達五成八的民眾對於公務員藐視國會罪是希望能夠支持的，您有聽到六成五的民眾是希望國會能夠改革的，您知道過去的民意會認為一黨獨大，連民眾的聲音都沒有辦法清楚明白表達的時候，這樣子的政府是危險的，這些民意您有聽到嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，如果憲法的程序是允許行政機關對相關條文在執行過程當中有所疑慮的時候，准許行政機關提出這樣的覆議程序的話，這個就是行政機關所應該有的責任。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：身為憲政機關，我覺得我們還是要研議來文之後，做最終的決定。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，院長，您剛剛有提到責任，看起來現在國民黨、民眾黨加起來的席次相對是比較多的，如果提出覆議還是沒過，您認為您自己會負什麼樣的責任？"],["卓院長榮泰：還是在憲法的條文裡面，我們來做以後的一些研判跟決定。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以您沒有任何政治的責任？"],["卓院長榮泰：我的責任是每一個來到這裡的官員，每一個進到國會的人民、團體、法人，甚至軍隊，都能得到合理的照顧，我的責任是經過行政院送出去的任何法案都是經過合法、合憲的程序。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實院長，國會改革是人民高度的期盼，也是過去民進黨在野的時候一直念茲在茲希望能夠推動的。我們只要說一件事，如果您的政治責任，只要告訴你的內閣官員，大家來立法院就是不要說謊，不要虛偽陳述，不要偽造不實，這樣子國會改革就能夠順暢地走下去。所以是不是能夠跟國人承諾，您的團隊裡面至少不會再像過去一樣那麼的戰狼性格，不會再像過去一樣那麼的跟民意機關、民意代表針鋒相對？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的提醒。其實從4月10號到現在，跟每一位首長，我都經過大概有五、六次以上的個別談話跟公開聚會，我一再告訴他們，未來面對國會任何的質詢跟答復，我們要秉持專業，要誠心誠意，所以我一直拜託他們，也要求他們誠意溝通、人民優先。我想我們每個部會首長目前都遵照這樣的原則在進行，我當然要以身作則，更澈底去落實。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長跟本席的想法就是中華民國國家至上，臺灣2,350萬人民優先，是一樣的看法，我們就繼續來檢視。","現在本來有傳出6月赴陸的禁團令能夠解除，因為其實民間大家都期盼有更好的兩岸互動，但今天賴總統在臺北旅展的時候，本來還以為有機會翻盤，但終究還是讓觀光業者失望。我現在想請教，傳出是國安會堅決反對所以沒有開放，請教國安會堅決反對的理由是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：這沒有哪一個單位、哪一個部門堅決反對，這是經過集體的思考，跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：誰主持的會議？集體的思考？"],["卓院長榮泰：3月到5月當中，我們的團客11萬去到中國大陸，來的是零，所以這11萬比零的數字，我必須透過委員讓社會知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我先請教是誰主持，讓集體確認這樣一個決策？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是共同討論，沒有主持人是誰。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有主持人是誰？"],["卓院長榮泰：十一萬比零……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們行政院開會什麼時候變成大家坐下來討論，然後沒有主持人，可以作出決議，這不是不用負責嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是行政院的院會，這是一個討論，就這個單一事件的討論，我們的立場是說雙方應該對等。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，有沒有看到過去這一段時間，臺灣不管是飯店、旅遊、住宿、觀光、餐飲、運輸業者都非常殷殷期盼兩岸有更春暖花開的時候？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們希望6月1號以後，讓以前已經組團的1,000團，將近兩萬的旅客可以繼續執行，這樣我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，你這樣根本就是懲罰好學生。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，我絕對沒有這樣的意思。"],["洪委員孟楷：過去你怎麼有辦法瞭解舊團可以出發，2月聽到政府髮夾彎，頒布赴陸禁團令之後，就停止招攬客人的旅行業者，難道就是乖乖的被耍嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我們的交通部觀光署也有做相關的、比較朝放寬的原則來看，只要舊團還在，它能夠把它組團完成，我們願意個案來處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：過去為什麼會有所謂的舊團、新團，就是因為民進黨政府的政策髮夾彎、大轉彎啊！從原本的開放，又說5月31號不能再前往中國大陸，到現在很多的觀光業者就說明明可以開大門、走大路，現在逼大家要用小門、避小路。"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員能夠體諒兩岸的關係、國際的情勢。"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是委員……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是政府正常在維持國家尊嚴上必須做的作為。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們都支持中華民國自己的主權立場，所以不用抹紅，但重點在於觀光這件事情上面，如果現在突然髮夾彎的話，有多少人、舊團跟新團，你有辦法分辨嗎？2月7號到5月31號私下攬客有罰一萬到五萬的罰則，請教到目前為止，有罰過多少人？抓到多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：我先跟委員報告，我希望委員跟我有同樣的想法，11萬比零的觀光客，這個部分政府要不要做一些努力？"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，剛剛本席開宗明義講了，您既然願意用誠心誠意的方式來跟立法部門溝通，本席願意跟您對等相談。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們就是以中華民國優先，2,350萬人至上，但重點在於觀光業者過去這段時間，大家都叫苦連天，這難道沒有聽到嗎？我只請教一句話，您去年也是跟著賴清德總統候選人全省跑透透，到底有沒有聽到我們觀光業者認為應該觀光歸觀光、政治歸政治，有沒有聽到這樣的訴求？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們做了這個初步的措施，改變原來的決定，我們恢復了舊團，我早上在行政院會我都說過了，只要看執行的情況，我們一定適時地做滾動的檢討。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼樣的狀況可以滾動檢討？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個預測性的、預判性的，我現在當然不知道，我只希望兩岸對等、執行順利。"],["洪委員孟楷：一定有指標吧！院長，我們做任何的決策一定有指標，如果我們是怎麼樣的情況……如同您剛剛說11萬比0，那未來什麼樣的情況或是什麼樣的事件可以讓你重新思考能夠做開放？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果能夠雙方對等，而且我們能夠執行順利，每一個團客出去品質都很好，我們願意在善意上堆疊，但一定要兩岸對等。"],["李部長孟諺：也跟委員報告，其實現在對臺灣有開放……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，院長，本席再請教……沒關係，部長，因為我現在請教院長。院長，如果以這樣子的一個方式的話，你覺得有可能，我們很樂觀地也希望陸生明年恢復來臺，你有多少把握能夠做到？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個部分教育部正在研擬明年或是……"],["洪委員孟楷：教育部現在正在研擬，我也在教育及文化委員會，我今年來詢問部長相關問題的時候，部長直接講5月開始來公告簡章、7月招生、9月入學，但是多少比例能做到？感覺教育部也沒有辦法負起相關責任啊！因為對於兩岸的問題來講，其實也不是單一部會能夠確認的事情，還是看上位，可能是您、可能是賴總統，那到底要怎麼樣可以讓我們國人看到或說讓臺灣的大學看到明年陸生來臺的計畫，可以讓賴清德總統來兌現這樣的支票？你有多少把握？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是朝向這樣的方式思考，雙邊一定要對等，在這裡每個國會議員應該跟我們有同樣的聲音，這樣才是臺灣團結。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們如果分裂就等於……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席會站在這邊就代表我們都是以中華民國青天白日滿地紅為榮、為傲，所以一定是對外一致，我們要求對等這毋庸置疑，所以也不用試圖要扣紅帽子。本席講現在執政的是你民進黨，你掌握的是執政權，所有不管是觀光、不管是求學，大家都認為兩岸是往兵凶戰危還是往春暖花開，這是你們一念之間，所以可不可以不要再用這種推卸式的言語來談……"],["卓院長榮泰：絕對沒有推卸。"],["洪委員孟楷：而是真真正正能夠負起溝通之責？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們即時在6月1號以前……"],["洪委員孟楷：過去8年馬政府時代能夠在平等、對等的情況下讓兩岸來順利交流。過去8年蔡英文政府時代下一樣是平等，我沒有講蔡英文政府的時候不平等，但是兩岸就停滯了。現在是賴清德總統的第二個禮拜，他要怎麼樣在平等、尊嚴的情況下恢復交流，這才是你應該做的事，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們很誠實地去面對6月1號的這個政策，我們做了最重大的決定。至於剛剛您提到的一些問題，交通部一定有相關的數字可以跟委員報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我想看來院長也沒有辦法跟我們明確地回復了。院長，我再請教，因為今天問題準備比較多，感謝各位部長，沒有辦法讓大家回答到的地方敬請見諒，並不是不願意讓大家回答，未來在委員會我一定都會請教各位。院長，我們臺灣的能源也會讓大家擔心，即便您昨天有在民眾黨黨團說臺灣不是缺電是跳電，但今天柯文哲主席馬上出來說不要再耍嘴皮子了。不管怎麼樣，我們沒有興趣講這些嘴皮子的話，本席比較有興趣的是以專業論專業。以前我們的經濟部長也是從產業過來的，產業之前都一直講臺灣有五缺，其中缺電、能源的問題，不只是我們產業的人講，外商的報告也都有提到臺灣的能源是相對不穩定的。AI未來的趨勢、半導體未來的趨勢也都認為，經濟部長自己也評估，每年以年增率3%提高用電需求，3%什麼概念？就是6年要增加18%，6年將近2成現在總體的發電量。剛剛你也講到了2024年7月核三廠一號機會除役，2025年核三廠二號機會除役。我現在想請教，一來一往之間，臺灣的能源缺口多了百分之二十幾，我們該怎麼做？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個數字我請部長來說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這一部分我們在之前就已經有規劃其他的燃氣機組……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我在經濟委員會都有質詢過您，我就直接請教，您提到法令通過後，如果有需要的話，核三能夠延役變成備用電源，是不是？但是經濟部不會主動提出修法，因為你認為修法的責任在國發會，是這樣嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我曾經講過這個話。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，這就是一個政治判斷，未來4年，我假設您這個院長的任期至少跟賴總統一樣，4年內會不會由國發會提出核三廠的延役計畫？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，照目前的核管法來看，目前是沒有這樣的可能性，未來修法之後，我也不知道法會修到什麼程度。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在修法，一個是立法院主動提，一個是行政院提出院版來立法院做修法，我現在只想請教的是……"],["卓院長榮泰：很抱歉……"],["洪委員孟楷：行政院會不會提出相關的修法建議，要求讓核電能夠延役、核三廠能夠來做使用？"],["卓院長榮泰：非常抱歉，跟委員報告，因為核管法是5年之前就要提出延役……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以您未來4年內都不會提，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經超越這個期限，現在再來提有所不當。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，我只請教未來四年都不會提嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們現在的努力是在這個法的規定底下，我們儘量去補充這個核三廠1號機的電、發電能源，跟未來2號機能夠把數量補上來，包括我們的大潭電廠、包括我們的綠能……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，可不可以聽清楚本席的問題？我現在只說今年7月核三廠1號機會除役，這是現況，40年到了嘛！本席只想請教，未來這4年行政院都不會主動提出核電廠延役的相關修法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在在法的規定下是沒有那個立場來談論這個問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：您會不會主動提？不會？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前沒有考慮到這樣的……"],["洪委員孟楷：目前沒有考慮，但未來不保證？"],["卓院長榮泰：未來？"],["洪委員孟楷：我就問你的任期內、你的判斷，如果照今天部長的講法、主委的講法……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們到7月27日……"],["洪委員孟楷：都說臺灣現在不缺電，本席為什麼會問這個問題？因為外界一直講啊！民進黨的人也在抹黑造謠說國民黨就是擁核，錯了！我們是要以核養綠，我們當然知道能源是選擇，我們當然希望能夠用再生能源，但重點是現在過渡期沒辦法使用的時候，核能可能是相對選擇性上面，第一，它是比較低碳的；第二，是相對比較乾淨的能源，所以我們用以核養綠的概念。有委員已經提案希望做相關修法，馬上就有民進黨的委員說：你看！國民黨就是要擁核。但等到修法通過之後，其實真正使用的是誰？是政府啊！是政府解決了能源缺口、能源危機啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，公共政策就是一個價值的選擇。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以國民黨也不一定需要當這個煞車皮，我們當煞車皮太久了。"],["卓院長榮泰：公共政策的決定就是一個選擇。"],["洪委員孟楷：我想請教，負責任的態度是行政院會不會在這個議題上面，在這4年內有所表態？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，公共政策就是一個選擇，委員剛剛說的以核養綠，我們認為現在行政團隊有能力不在這個權衡底下去做其他的選擇。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以未來4年你們不會主動提？就一句話。"],["卓院長榮泰：目前沒有這個規劃。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我只想請教院長，非核家園跟非碳家園，在你心目中哪一個比較重要？"],["卓院長榮泰：非核家園是定在環境基本法裡面，非碳的……"],["洪委員孟楷：非碳家園。"],["卓院長榮泰：非碳家園是我們朝向2050淨零轉型一個重要的、臺灣跟國際接軌的……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以哪一個比較重要？"],["卓院長榮泰：同樣的重要。"],["洪委員孟楷：對你來講，沒有先後順序，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：同樣的重要。"],["洪委員孟楷：但會相互牴觸喔！如果你要追求非核家園，你就是火力全開。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們對能源的政策……"],["洪委員孟楷：這就是現在牴觸的地方。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們對能源的政策有三個原則……"],["洪委員孟楷：2025年非核家園有高達八成是用火力發電，而20%再生能源如果沒有趕上的話，你會有八成以上都是火力發電，這才是讓大家現在沒有辦法接受的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們有三個原則，第一個是安全穩定的供電，第二個是全面發展綠能，第三個是依法朝向非核家園的目標。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，謝謝您再一次確認您的三個原則。","接下來，人事的任命也很重要。院長，之前我們看到NCC 4位委員的名單，是由陳建仁院長在最後卸任前不到1個月的時間送出來，當然我們那時候就講了，臺灣、中華民國是所謂的責任政治。","主委、部長可以先請回。","因此本席想請教，到目前為止，我們沒有把這個人事案排入委員會做審查，因為其實我們也是尊重卓榮泰院長，其實行政院長有提名人事權，並且送立法院同意、審查。所以我們想請教現在4位人事的同意權，您會不會再提新的名單？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，謝謝委員的提醒。我也很遺憾，4月份的時候這個名單提出來之後，沒有按照一定的程序來完成，現在有一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：並不是沒有按照一定的程序來完成，因為在臺灣我們還是希望是能夠有責任政治嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們現在想要確認的是，您願意幫這份名單背書嗎？還是您會再跟朝野溝通，提出適合的專業人選？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員能夠理解我們10天以來，花了很多時間在看一些重要的場域，花了很多的時間在準備跟大院的施政報告，所以真的這10天當中，我們還沒有深入到提名通傳會委員的名單當中。但是我跟您承諾，我們一定會在最近的時間內，將這件事情做一個圓滿的解決，那麼請大院能夠同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：意思是要重新提出名單？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會檢視名單。"],["洪委員孟楷：檢視名單。所以你到目前為止，還不知道名單這4位是誰？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是您覺得這4位委員適合擔任NCC委員嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會以行政院立場來檢視名單。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有看到那個時候傳出來的時候有媒體大亨出手，所以原本的劉姓主委，搖身一變又換了，那有沒有看到裡面有羅姓委員，他曾經講過新聞自由是什麼？能吃嗎？這一些言行你認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我跟委員一樣，我們要檢視名單，當外界很多對這次名單的一些傳聞，我現在應該有一些方法去瞭解它的內容。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我想請教，因為那個時候4月30號，本席如果沒有記錯的話，我記得已經宣布您是賴清德總統的院長了。"],["卓院長榮泰：那不在其位，不謀其政。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，沒有錯。所以陳建仁院長提出名單的時候，都沒有跟你討論過？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照慣例是不需要……"],["洪委員孟楷：是沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為他是現任的院長，他當然不需要跟我討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是他知道他的任期就到520，那520之後就是您，結果他提出名單，看起來那個時候也是沒有辦法那麼順利在20天裡面，即便我們用最快的速度，立法院要開院會也沒有辦法20天裡面就通過。所以換言之，這個名單其實是在你任內的，陳建仁院長都完全沒有跟你討論過，蔡英文總統也沒有跟賴清德總統討論，然後他就把名單送出來了，那當您就任之後，立法院要同意這個名單？"],["卓院長榮泰：陳院長有他作業的時程，跟委員報告，我們當然沒有討論過這個名單，我再一次強調不在其位，不謀其政。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你到目前為止……好，可不可以確認一下，什麼時候會確定？您的屬意名單什麼時候會出來？"],["卓院長榮泰：今天跟大院完成施政報告之後，我想我的工作會比較減少一部分，所以我會去好好的看這個名單。"],["洪委員孟楷：下個禮拜會出來嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會去開始認真的檢視名單，在最短的時間內讓委員看到。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，問一下一個俏皮的啦！7月31日，如果NCC委員沒有補上的話，我們臺灣買得到iPhone嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我一定努力不讓這個後果發生。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實是不會啦！但這是之前的一個謬論，跟之前執政黨委員在攻擊啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：通傳會不是在賣手機而已啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：絕對不要用這種民粹的講法去……每一件事情我們都很認真的去看待，我也期待院長能夠提出一個真的專業、適才適所的NCC委員名單。我再強調一點，提出真的好的名單跟人選，在野黨沒有反對的理由，但如果在野黨有反對、有嚴格監督的時候，那代表的是我們對於行政部門有高度的期待，也請院長一定要記得這句話，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，接下來這個我一定拜託要請您檢視一下你的態度，廢死的議題現在大家都關注，而且講說可能是蔡英文總統要卸任的時候，希望能夠讓大法官釋憲來影響我們立法權的進行，最新的民調高達84.6%反廢死，八成五的民眾反廢死，院長，您個人支持廢死嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有37位相關的人現在在做各種的努力當中，我們都看到了，我沒有能力……"],["洪委員孟楷：你是說37位死刑定讞的死刑犯正在提出釋憲嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，他們在做各種的努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：但本席問的是您個人支持廢死嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然沒有能力去影響、左右大法官會議，但是身為行政院的負責人，在大法官做出任何決定之前，我不宜說出太多個人的主張。"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是您「不宜說出太多個人的主張」，你應該講的是您要支持依法行政。我國到目前為止，如果還沒有廢除死刑之前，就是有死刑……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有廢死。"],["洪委員孟楷：而剛剛你提到的37位也是死刑犯三審定讞，換言之，到目前為止，這些死刑犯有人是三、四十年還沒有執行的。行政院院長最主要就是要依法行政，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在沒有廢死的法令，但是大法官解釋的位階是很高的，但是我的責任在於，不管……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以您認同用大法官的解釋來剝奪立法權的制定？立法委員在立法院、最高民意機關，民進黨黨團都不敢提出反廢死這樣的提案了，結果您認同用大法官釋憲的方式來剝奪立法權，讓立法權的死刑能夠拿除，是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：大法官解釋有它的國家法律、憲法的位階。"],["洪委員孟楷：能夠超越我們的權力分際嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：它一定有它的法律位階，一定會產生它的影響跟效果，但是行政院甚至國會、大院的功能，我們怎麼樣把臺灣治安做到最好，不管有沒有廢死，把治安這件事情做好是我們共同的責任。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，非常好，您提到了治安，因為本席特別看到了五打七安，我覺得某種程度上也代表過去蔡英文政府還是有可以再更精進、不足的地方，所以一定要加強。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也可以在好的基礎上……"],["洪委員孟楷：其中詐騙非常重要，也非常地惡劣，有沒有看到新任的經濟部長，但看起來他的「新經部」跟經濟部有點不同，被冒名詐騙。我們再看下一個，詐騙集團也很厲害，他可以把現在最紅的黃仁勳、在逛夜市非常火紅的CEO，這也變成是詐騙。現在當然我也支持我們有打詐相關的法令，我們也支持應該要用打詐四法，能夠嚇阻詐騙集團囂張氣焰的我們都支持。但看到這樣的詐騙狀況，數發部、金管會、警政署、內政部在哪邊？院長，看到這樣子你有什麼感覺？"],["卓院長榮泰：非常地深惡痛絕。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望打詐四法能夠儘速通過，通過之後，我們法務部相關的檢調、檢警機關就可以有更多的力氣，至於怎麼做，是不是請部長來跟委員做說明？"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，部長，我們之後再在司法及法制委員會做相關討論，好不好？","但是院長，本席要提醒，其實死刑在某種程度上，大家也說有死刑能嚇阻一定的犯罪，有死刑能夠讓犯罪的人多一些思考，因此這也是為什麼從過去到現在做了那麼多的民調都高達八成、八成五以上，甚至有九成民眾，臺灣、中華民國國民2,350萬人有高達八成五的民眾都認為不宜廢死，這一點請院長、請相關部會首長一定要謹記在心。","最後，院長，我想再跟您確認一下，首都治安也非常重要，但這兩天傳出警察局局長……","抱歉，沒有讓部長回答到，請見諒。","首都的治安非常重要，這兩天傳出警察局局長的一個人事爭議，本席認為很奇怪，就是如果部長真的有打給臺北市市長蔣萬安，徵詢他的意見，照理講就應該是尊重臺北市市長的意見。我先請教劉部長，過去一個禮拜，您打了幾通電話給蔣萬安市長？"],["劉部長世芳：我跟蔣市長大概是兩次的電話。"],["洪委員孟楷：兩通電話。一通是在禮拜一晚上，一通是在禮拜二晚上，是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：就是這個禮拜嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["劉部長世芳：還是上個禮拜？這個禮拜，對。"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：第一通電話，您是請教蔣萬安市長他有沒有屬意的警察局長人選，還是怎麼溝通的？"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員報告一下，我應該是跟蔣市長說，因為張榮興、原來臺北市警局的局長要榮升，而因為過去一段時間在立法院周遭有一些陳情的活動，所以比較忙一點，但是未來的一週，其實我在行政院院會有跟他提到，我需要來拜訪他，他說再來安排，但是我覺得時間上比較……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，部長，我只是想要確認是不是蔣萬安市長有提出他屬意的人選可能是方局長，之後您給他兩個人選來讓他選擇，後來蔣萬安市長跟你說他希望是方局長，但是到最後你們還是選擇李局長，是這樣嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我想在溝通的過程當中，我一再地強調兩……"],["洪委員孟楷：你沒有提出兩個人選嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，兩位都是非常優秀的人選，但是我們認為……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有提出主動提出兩個人選給蔣萬安市長來選擇？"],["劉部長世芳：不是主動，因為他有提到他屬意的人選，但是我跟他提到我們任務的需求，他需要知道另外一位人選的學經歷是什麼，我就把兩位的學經歷一次送給蔣萬安市長參考。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是蔣萬安自始至終有沒有很清楚表達，他希望是方局長？"],["劉部長世芳：在第二次之後，但是因為時間上的關係，我在第二次跟他通過電話之後，我已經簽文了。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你到最後不尊重蔣萬安市長的理由是什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我非常地尊重、非常地尊重！我說這是任務需求，我們認為打詐是最重要的一件事情，所以新任的臺北市警局局長比較有能耐可以處理打詐的議題。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席謝謝院長，我們希望一起為中華民國、為臺灣2,350萬人努力。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢、謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，我們休息10分鐘，謝謝。","休息（15時45分）","繼續開會（15時56分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":27,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-16","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-31"],"gazette_id":"1135101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第16次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1135101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.6040937500000005,"end":7.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.114093750000002,"end":8.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.430343750000002,"end":10.223468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.544093750000002,"end":12.130343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.61971875,"end":13.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.01909375,"end":22.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","st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桀驁不拘 瀟灑自在棒球場上有個大師兄叫林志勝他帶動氣氛老大哥也是中華隊的強棒都非常有特色您自己怎麼看給自己大師兄院長您自己的特色是什麼不敢當我只能接受人民的附託在這裡向立法院負責"},{"start":52.236,"end":55.937,"text":"台灣民主蓬勃的發展,要走向一個健康的方向。"},{"start":77.964,"end":105.271,"text":"本席也非常認同,因為我覺得我們韓院長講得很好,民主,台灣的民主有治癒的能力。我也說台灣的民主會自己找到出路,如同生命會找到出路。但很可惜跟遺憾的是,像上個禮拜幾次的國會改革的時候,我們看到執政黨的委員頭上綁的布條叫做民主已死。我們想說這個是一個蓬勃發展的生機的時候,怎麼會是執政黨委員講說民主已死。"},{"start":105.832,"end":108.647,"text":"不過現在看到國會改革法案"},{"start":110,"end":134.855,"text":"現在有傳出有可能行政院會提復議有可能民進黨會提釋憲賴總統有可能在還沒有釋憲結束之前不會依法來到立法院做國情報告那看起來是執政黨府院黨都要來杯葛國會改革法案是這樣嗎?跟委員報告不是杯葛兩個字如果我們看到民進黨立法院黨團的委員先進們他們在"},{"start":137.127,"end":156.316,"text":"國會裡面這樣的表現能夠去體會到他們是不是在審查相關法案的過程當中他們有的表示的機會不容許他們充分的表示他們的意見或者是在過程當中他們感受到應該可以更進步所以他這種表現我予以尊重但我希望"},{"start":157.199,"end":174.032,"text":"不管是兩院之間或是國會內部都能夠很平順的進行所以院長我請教我確認一下您今天會提出復議最主要理由是因為民進黨團在國會裡面沒有充分的表達我今天沒有提出復議我知道我是說未來如果有可能你提出復議最主要理由是什麼"},{"start":175.285,"end":200.446,"text":"我當然還是要看整個大院的來文但是外界國人所關切的他是不是在程序上不夠完整他是不是有侵害到個人的權益那他是不是有違憲的部分以及他對於將來兩院互動當中是不是會產生一個不良的效果請龍許本席提醒您第一議事如果有問題的話我們今天的院長以及秘書長就不會讓議事進行"},{"start":201.827,"end":227.648,"text":"如果今天有違憲與否的話也不是您我說了算而是大法官我們尊重民進黨團如果要提違憲的這樣的一個釋憲的一個說明但是在還沒有釋憲之前依法通過的法令行政院如果說要提出復議的話這其實要對自己的決策來負責你有看到有高達五成八的民眾對於公務員藐視國會罪是希望能夠支持的"},{"start":228.388,"end":243.559,"text":"您有聽到有6成5的民眾是希望國會能夠改革的?您有知道說過去的民意大家會認為是說一黨獨大的時候連民眾的聲音都沒有辦法清楚明白表達的時候這樣子的政府是危險的?這些民意您有聽到嗎?"},{"start":247.182,"end":247.903,"text":"院長,所以您剛有提到責任嗎?"},{"start":268.564,"end":297.041,"text":"那如果說提出復議之後看起來因為現在國民黨民眾黨加起來的一個席次相對是比較多的如果提出復議還是沒過您認為您自己會負什麼樣的責任還是在憲法的條文裡面我們來做以後的一些研判跟決定所以您沒有任何政治的責任我的責任是每一個來到這裡的官員每一個進到國會的人民"},{"start":297.961,"end":301.363,"text":"其實院長國會改革是人民高度的期盼也是過去民進黨在野時候一直念茲在茲希望能夠推動的"},{"start":319.244,"end":345.305,"text":"我們只要說一件事如果您的政治責任只要告訴你的內閣官員大家來立法院就是不要說謊不要有虛偽陳述不要有偽造不實這樣子國會改革就能夠順暢的走下去所以是不是能夠跟國人承諾您的團隊裡面至少不會再像過去一樣那麼的戰狼性格不會再像過去一樣那麼的跟"},{"start":346.175,"end":374.193,"text":"民意機關、民意代表、針鋒相對謝謝委員的提醒其實在4月10號到現在跟每一位首長我都經過大概有5、6次以上的個別的談話跟公開的聚會我一再告訴他們未來面對國會面對國會的任何的質詢跟答覆我們要秉持專業要誠心誠意所以我一直拜託他們也要求他們誠意溝通人民優先"},{"start":375.37,"end":404.313,"text":"我想每個我們部會首長目前都遵照這樣的原則在進行當然要以身作則更徹底的去落實好 院長跟本席的想法中華民國國家至上臺灣2300萬2350萬人民優先是一樣的看法我們就繼續來檢視現在有傳出本來有傳出6月說復錄的這個禁團令能夠解除因為其實民間大家都期盼有更好的兩岸互動但"},{"start":405.356,"end":423.026,"text":"今天賴總統他在臺北旅展的時候本來還以為是有機會翻盤但終究還是讓觀光業者失望我現在想請教傳出是國安會堅決反對所以沒有做開放請教國安會堅決反對的理由是什麼"},{"start":424.039,"end":446.925,"text":"這沒有一個哪一個單位哪一個部門是堅決反對這是經過集體的思考我先跟委員報告誰主持的會議集體的思考3月到5月當中我們的團客11萬去到中國大陸來的是0所以這11萬比0的數字我必須透過委員跟社會知道誰的主持讓"},{"start":449.927,"end":463.219,"text":"這是一個共同討論,沒有主持人是誰?沒有主持人是誰?我們行政院的開會什麼時候變成是大家坐下來討論然後沒有主持人然後可以做出決議?這不是行政院的院會,這是一個討論,就這個單一世界的討論。"},{"start":468.323,"end":469.023,"text":"所以我們希望6月1日以後"},{"start":484.305,"end":509.267,"text":"讓以前已經組團的一千團將近兩萬的旅客可以繼續執行。繼續執行。院長馬上就有人講是說你這樣根本就是懲罰好學生嗎?沒有我絕對沒有這樣的意思。因為過去在過去你怎麼有辦法了解說舊團可以出發那二月聽到政府法轄灣頒布了附入的進團令之後就停止招攬客人的旅行業者難道就是乖乖的被耍嗎?"},{"start":511.771,"end":533.07,"text":"謝謝這個委員我們的交通部觀光署也有做相關的比較朝放寬的原則來看只要舊團還在他能夠把它組團完成我們願意個案的來處理所以過去為什麼會有所謂的舊團新團就是因為民進黨政府的政策髮夾彎大轉彎啊從原本的開放又說5月31號不能再前往"},{"start":533.61,"end":561.368,"text":"中國大陸那到現在很多的觀光業者就講說明明可以開大門走大陸現在逼大家要用小門閉小門。警務委員能夠體諒兩岸的關係、國際的情勢。這不是委員。政府在維持國家尊嚴上所必須做的作為。我們都支持中華民國我們自己的主權立場所以說不用抹紅但重點在於是說在觀光的這件事情上面你如果說現在突然髮夾彎的話有多少人舊團跟新團你有辦法分辨嗎?"},{"start":563.116,"end":588.05,"text":"二月七號到五月三十一號私下攬客有罰一萬到五萬的罰則請教到目前為止有罰過多少人有抓到多少我希望委員跟我有同樣的想法十一萬比零的觀光客這個部分政府要不要做一些努力院長剛剛本席開宗明義講了您既然願意用誠心誠意的方式來跟立法部門來溝通本席願意跟您對等相談"},{"start":589.091,"end":601.005,"text":"我們就是以中華民國優先以2350萬人來至上但重點在於是觀光業者過去這段時間大家都叫苦連天這難道沒有聽到嗎我只請教一句話"},{"start":602.349,"end":628.754,"text":"您去年也是跟著賴清德總統候選人的時候全神跑透透到底有沒有聽到我們觀光業者認為應該觀光歸觀光政治歸政治有沒有聽到這樣的訴求所以我們做了這個初步的改變原來的決定我們恢復了舊團那我早上跟當行政院院長我都說過了只要看執行的情況適時的我們一定做滾動的檢討什麼樣的狀況可以使滾動檢討"},{"start":631.374,"end":631.614,"text":"如果能夠雙方對等"},{"start":654.946,"end":678.892,"text":"而且我們能夠執行順利每一個團客出去品質都很好我們願意在善意上堆疊但一定要兩岸對等當然沒關係院長本席再請教沒關係部長因為我現在請教院長院長如果說以這樣子的一個方式的話那你覺得有可能我們很樂觀的也希望陸生明年恢復來台"},{"start":680.063,"end":681.303,"text":"你有多少把握能夠做到?"},{"start":701.528,"end":703.229,"text":"我們還是朝向這樣的方式來做思考。"},{"start":726.211,"end":753.769,"text":"雙邊一定要對等在這裡每個國會議員應該跟我們有同樣的聲音這樣才是臺灣團結我們如果分裂就等於對手加盟議會站在這邊就代表我們都是以中華民國青天白日滿地紅為榮為傲所以一定是對外一致我們要求對等這無庸置疑所以也不用制度要扣紅帽子本席現在實際上講現在執政的是你民進黨你掌握的是執政權所有不管是觀光不管是求學"},{"start":754.429,"end":762.996,"text":"大家都在認為兩岸是要往冰凶站圍還是往春暖花開這是你們一念之間所以各位不要再用這種"},{"start":765.697,"end":792.006,"text":"推卸式的言語。而是真真正正能夠負起溝通之爭。過去八年嘛政府時代能夠在平等對等的情況下讓兩岸來順利交流過去八年蔡英文政府時代下一樣是平等我沒有講蔡英文政府的時候不平等但是兩岸就停滯了現在是賴清德總統的第二個禮拜他要怎麼樣在平等尊嚴的情況下能恢復交流這才是你應該做的事不是嗎"},{"start":792.586,"end":814.605,"text":"所以我們很誠實的去面對6月1號的這個政策我們做了最重大的決定那至於說剛剛您提到的一些問題交通部一定有相關的數字可以跟委員來做報告我想看來院長這也沒有辦法跟我們明確的回覆了來院長我再請教因為今天問題準備比較多感謝各位部長沒有辦法讓大家回答到的地方敬請見諒"},{"start":815.906,"end":843.363,"text":"並不是不願意讓大家回答,未來委員會我一定都會請教各位。來,院長,我們台灣的能源啊,也會讓大家擔心啊。即便您昨天有在民眾黨黨團講說,喔,台灣不是缺電,是跳電。但馬上今天柯文哲主席就出來講說不要再耍嘴皮子了。不管怎麼樣,我們沒有興趣講這些嘴皮子的話。本席比較有興趣的是以專業論專業。"},{"start":845.885,"end":861.768,"text":"以前我們的經濟部長也是從產業過來的。產業之前都一直講臺灣有五缺。其中缺電、能源的問題不只是我們產業的人講。我們有外商的報告也都有提到臺灣的能源是相對不穩定的。"},{"start":862.711,"end":886.478,"text":"AI未來的趨勢半導體未來的趨勢也都認為經濟部長自己也評估每年以年增率3%來提高這用電需求3%什麼概念就是6年要增加18%6年將近兩成現在總體的發電量剛剛你也講到了2025年7月和三場一號機會除役2025年和三場二號機會除役2024對"},{"start":892.742,"end":897.975,"text":"我現在想請教一來一往之間臺灣的能源缺口多了20幾%我們該怎麼做?"},{"start":902.474,"end":926.269,"text":"這個數字我請部長來說明。報告委員這一部分我想我們在之前就已經有規劃其他的這個燃氣機組。部長我在經濟委員會都有諮詢過您我就直接請教您有提到是說法令通過如果有需要的話河山能夠演繹變成是備用電源是不是?但是經濟部不會主動提出修法因為你認為說修法這個責任是在國發會是這樣嗎?"},{"start":929.725,"end":944.472,"text":"我曾經講過這個話是那院長這就是一個政治判斷未來四年我假設您這個院長的任期至少跟賴總統一樣四年四年內會不會由國發會提出河山場的研議計畫"},{"start":945.836,"end":970.391,"text":"首先照目前的核管法來看目前是沒有這樣的可能性那未來修法之後我也不知道法會修到什麼程度現在修法一個是立法院主動提嘛一個是行政院能夠提出院版這邊來立法院來做修法我現在只想請教的是行政院會不會提出相關的修法建議要求讓核電能夠研議核三廠能夠來做使用"},{"start":970.931,"end":994.992,"text":"非常抱歉跟委員報告因為這個核管法是要五年之前就要提出所以您未來四年內都不會提我們已經超越了這個期限我只請教您未來四年都不會提嗎所以我們現在的努力是在這個法的規定底下我們盡量去補充這個核三廠一號機的發電能源跟未來二號機能夠把它數量補上來"},{"start":995.592,"end":1023.731,"text":"包括我們的大潭電廠包括我們的綠能院長可不可以聽清楚本席的問題我現在只講是說今年7月核三廠一號機會除役這個是現況40年到了嘛那本席只想請教的是未來這四年行政院都不會主動提要核電廠研議的相關修法我們現在在法的規定下我們是沒有那個立場來談論這個問題那您會不會主動提不會目前沒有考慮到這樣的目前沒有考慮但未來不保證"},{"start":1025.683,"end":1025.703,"text":"未來﹖"},{"start":1043.638,"end":1061.007,"text":"國民黨就是擁核啊,錯了,我們是要以核養綠,我們當然知道能源是選擇,我們當然希望能夠用再生能源,但重點是在現在過渡期沒有辦法使用的時候,核能可能是相對選擇性,第一它是比較低碳的,第二是相對比較乾淨的能源,所以我們用以核養綠的概念。"},{"start":1061.767,"end":1089.437,"text":"有委員已經有提案希望能夠做相關修法馬上就有民進黨的委員就講是說你看國民黨就是要永和但等到修法通過之後其實真正使用的是誰是政府啊是政府解決了能源缺口能源危機啊所以國民黨也不一定要需要當這個煞車皮啊所以我現在只想請教負責任的態度是行政院會不會在這個議題上面這四年內有所表態"},{"start":1090.157,"end":1116.233,"text":"跟委員報告公共政策就是一個選擇委員剛剛說的以核養綠我們認為現在我們的行政團隊有能力不在這個選擇底下去做其他的選擇未來四年你們不會主動提目前沒有規劃好那我只想請教院長非核家園跟非碳家園在你心目中哪一個比較重要非核家園是定在我們的環境基本法裡面的"},{"start":1117.281,"end":1120.365,"text":"對你來講沒有先後順序?是不是?但會商戶抵觸喔?"},{"start":1133.105,"end":1134.585,"text":"謝謝您再一次的確認您的三個原則來接下來"},{"start":1162.759,"end":1182.232,"text":"人事的任命也很重要。院長之前我們看到NCC的委員四位委員的名單是由陳建仁院長在最後卸任不到一個月的時間送出來那當然我們那時候就講了臺灣我們中華民國是所謂的責任政治來主委部長可以先請回"},{"start":1183.257,"end":1201.597,"text":"也因此本席就想請教到目前為止我們是沒有把這個人事案排入委員會來做審查因為其實我們也是尊重卓榮派院長卓榮派院長其實行政院長有提名人事權並且送立法院來同意來審查所以我們現在想請教"},{"start":1203.221,"end":1231.415,"text":"現在的這個人事、四位人事的同意權您會不會再新提名單是的,謝謝委員的提醒我也很遺憾四月份的時候這個名單提出來之後沒有按照一定的程序來完成並不是沒有按照一定的程序來完成因為台灣我們還是希望是能夠有責任政治嘛所以我們現在想要確認是說您願意幫這份名單背書嗎還是您會再跟朝野溝通提出適合專業的人選"},{"start":1233.583,"end":1236.398,"text":"請委員能夠理解我們10天以來"},{"start":1237.81,"end":1237.95,"text":"當然知道。"},{"start":1265.931,"end":1293.637,"text":"對,但是您覺得這四位委員適合擔任我們的NCC委員嗎?有沒有看到那個時候傳出來那個時候傳出來的時候有媒體大亨出手所以原本的劉姓主委又搖身一變又換了那有沒有看到裡面有羅姓委員他曾經講過說新聞自由是什麼能吃嗎?這一些言行你認同嗎?所以我跟委員一樣我們要檢視名單"},{"start":1295.618,"end":1314.291,"text":"當這個外界很多的對這次名單的一些傳聞我現在應該有一些方法去了解他的內容我想請教因為那個時候4月30號本席如果沒有記錯的話我記得您已經宣布是賴清德總統的院長了那不在其位不謀其政是沒有錯所以陳建仁院長提出名單的時候都沒有跟你討論過依照觀"},{"start":1317.759,"end":1344.434,"text":"因為他是現任的院長他當然不需要跟我討論但是他知道他的任期就到520那520之後就是您結果他提出名單也看起來那個時候是沒有辦法那麼順利在20天裡面即便我們用最快的速度立法院要開院會也沒有辦法20天裡面就通過所以換言之這個名單其實在你任內的陳建仁院長都完全沒有跟你討論過蔡英文總統也沒有跟賴清德總統討論然後他就把名單送出來了"},{"start":1346.102,"end":1373.742,"text":"當您就任之後,立法院要同意這個名單?陳院長有他作業的時程。那跟委員報告,我們當然沒有討論過這個名單。我再次強調,不在其位共同執政。可不可以確認一下,什麼時候會確定您的屬意名單什麼時候會出來?今天跟大院完成施政報告之後,我想我的工作會比較減少一部分,所以我會去好好地看這個名單。下個禮拜會出來嗎?我會去開始。"},{"start":1374.435,"end":1384.992,"text":"認真的檢視名單在最短的時間內讓委員看到。院長那問一下個俏皮的啦。如果731NCC委員沒有補上的話我們台灣買得到iPhone嗎?"},{"start":1386.952,"end":1411.258,"text":"我一定努力不讓這個後果發生其實是不會啦但是這個是之前的一個謬論跟之前在執政黨的委員在攻擊啦我想絕對不要用這種絕對不要用這種民粹的講法來去每一件事情我們都很認真的去看待我也期待院長能夠提出一個真的專業是才是所的NCC委員名單我再強調一點"},{"start":1412.398,"end":1413.419,"text":"來,院長接下來這個我一定拜託要請您檢視一下你的態度"},{"start":1433.379,"end":1434.24,"text":"院長,您個人支持Face嗎?"},{"start":1457.472,"end":1485.592,"text":"有37位相關的人現在在做各種的努力當中,我們都看到了。你說37位死刑定讞的死刑犯,他們正在提出釋憲嗎?對,他們在做各種的努力。本席問的是您個人支持Face嗎?我當然沒有能力去影響左右大法官的回應。但是,身為行政院的負責人,在大法官做出任何決定之前,我不宜說出太多個人的主張。"},{"start":1487.117,"end":1504.726,"text":"這不是您不宜說出太多個人主張嗎?您應該講的是您要支持依法行政我國到目前為止如果說還沒有廢除死刑之前就是有死刑而剛剛你提到37位也是死刑犯三審定業換言之到目前為止有"},{"start":1505.746,"end":1512.673,"text":"這一些實習犯有人是三、四十年還沒有執行的。我們現在沒有FACE的法令,但是大法官的解釋位階是很高的。您認同用大法官的解釋來剝奪不管是立法權"},{"start":1524.505,"end":1552.323,"text":"的一個制定立法委員在立法院最高民意機關民進黨團都不敢提出反廢死的這樣的一個提案了結果您認同用大法官釋憲的方式來剝奪立法權讓立法權的死刑能夠拿出是這樣子嗎?大法官解釋有他國家法律憲法的位階但能夠超越到我們的權力分際嗎?他一定有他的法律位階他一定會產生他的影響跟效果但是行政院甚至跟"},{"start":1553.663,"end":1580.148,"text":"國會大院裡面我們的功能我們是怎麼樣把臺灣的治安把它做得最好不管有沒有廢死把治安這件事情做好是我們共同的責任院長非常好您提到了治安因為本期特別看到了五打七安七安五打代表我覺得啦孟崇尚也代表是說過去蔡英文政府裡面還是有可以蓋更精進不足的地方所以我們也可以在好的基礎上那其中"},{"start":1582.174,"end":1610.62,"text":"詐騙非常重要也非常的惡劣有沒有看到這一個我們新任的經濟部長但看起來他的新經部跟經濟部有點不同被冒名詐騙來我們再看下一個詐騙集團也很厲害他可以把現在最紅的這個黃仁勳這個CEO在我們逛夜市的這個非常火紅的這個我們的CEO他也變成是詐騙"},{"start":1612.412,"end":1636.895,"text":"所以我們現在當然我也支持我們有打詐相關的法律我們也支持應該要用打詐釋法能夠嚇阻詐騙集團囂張的企業我們都支持但看到這樣子的一個詐騙的狀況我們速發部我們警管會我們警政署內政部在哪邊院長希望您看到這樣子你有什麼感覺"},{"start":1638.729,"end":1641.812,"text":"但是院長本期要提醒其實實行某程度上大家也講"},{"start":1661.531,"end":1662.692,"text":"最後院長我想再跟您確認一下"},{"start":1692.307,"end":1699.035,"text":"首都治安也非常重要,但這兩天傳出警察局局長的人事爭議,本席認為很奇怪。"},{"start":1709.281,"end":1736.478,"text":"就是說如果說我們的部長真的有打給臺北市市長蔣萬安徵詢他的意見那照理講就應該是尊重我們臺北市市長的意見那我先請教劉部長您打過去一個禮拜您打了幾通電話給我們蔣萬安市長我跟蔣市長大概是兩次的電話兩通電話一通是在禮拜一晚上一通是在禮拜二晚上是不是"},{"start":1739.182,"end":1741.311,"text":"就是這個禮拜嗎?是不是?還是上個禮拜?這個禮拜?對。"},{"start":1744.827,"end":1770.175,"text":"您是不是是第一通電話您是請教蔣萬安市長他有沒有屬意的警察局長人選還是怎麼溝通的我跟委員報告一下我應該是說在跟蔣市長講說因為張榮興啊原來台北市警局的局長要容身那因為過去一段時間呢我們在這個立法院周遭啊有一些這個陳情的活動所以比較忙一點"},{"start":1771.135,"end":1797.283,"text":"但是未來的一週其實我在行政院院會有跟他提到我需要來拜訪他他說再來安排但是部長我只想要確認是不是蔣萬安市長有提出說他屬意的人選可能是方局長那之後你給他兩個人選來給他選擇到最後蔣萬安市長跟你講說他希望方局長但是到最後你們還是選擇李局長是這樣嗎沒有我想在溝通的過程當中我一再的強調你沒有提出兩個人選嗎"},{"start":1798.643,"end":1799.924,"text":"所以你到最後不尊重蔣萬安市長"},{"start":1842.559,"end":1844.787,"text":"謝謝院長。我們希望一起為中華民國、為臺灣2300萬人。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}