{"error":false,"id":["153439"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153439,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153439","日期":"2024-06-03","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-16","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":16,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-03T09:22:13+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-03T09:34:36+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:23","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c70740240baabf5a2fe8b263bafebededa07eb068d4dbfff0b0c8255030c01a61e3e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:22:13 - 09:34:36","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員丁學忠等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":143,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時22分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。上一次修訂財政收支劃分法是什麼時候？"],["莊部長翠雲：民國88年吧？"],["黃委員國昌：1999年，25年前了嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，過去這25年，民進黨在野的時候，主張修財政收支劃分法，我之前在質詢的時候，其實也帶部長看過，那個時候是民主進步黨的主席蘇貞昌率領著他們執政的縣市長出來說，財政收支劃分法沒有修正，看到這些縣市財政困境，就像小孩子嗷嗷待哺，米缸空空如也的感受。2015年蔡英文在競選總統的時候，他也主張要修正財政收支劃分法，等到民進黨執政了以後，我們現任的總統賴清德當初在當行政院院長的時候，他有承諾要修正財政收支劃分法。到目前為止，我們看到的是持續跳票，2018年的時候，賴清德行政院長他也承諾要提出院版的草案，那目前院版的草案進度如何？請教部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們財政部已經初步擬了修法的方向，然後也請各地方政府就有關分配的指標提出意見，相關的差距其實是蠻大，而且指標多達30到50個，我們目前來說是因為要趕快縮小這個差距，然後凝聚一個最大的共識，這是水平分配的部分，跟委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，你沒有回答我的問題，我說行政院的版本還要多久？"],["莊部長翠雲：行政院的版本我們必須把共識先凝聚出來。"],["黃委員國昌：所以沒有時間表？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，因為剛剛也跟黃委員報告過了，過往雖然在88年以後，也歷經5次提出財劃法的修正，但是為什麼沒有能夠完成立法，就是因為沒有共識，所以在沒有共識的情況下提出立法的版本，其實是仍不夠完整……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在財政部的立場……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們的目的就是要把它完成……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，請部長針對問題回答啦，我還是一樣的問題，就是目前行政院版本的草案沒有時間表，是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們要有共識，我們要有一致的共識。"],["黃委員國昌：針對目前財劃法的研修方向，你們提出了五個重要的研修方向嘛，這個是你們在5月20號所提出來的版本。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個研修方向是擴大中央統籌分配稅款的規模嘛，剛剛你一直都在推給水平分配，我們前幾次質詢的時候，這些問題都討論過了。我們針對問題具體的來談，你們所提出的研修方向，第一個，擴大中央統籌分配稅款的規模，請問你們針對這一個研修方向，目前的規劃是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，擴大統籌分配稅款的規模是我們的一個方向，但是在這個規模……"],["黃委員國昌：具體的內容是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：具體的內容，我們必須要去思考，第一個，我們要考量地方的財政需求，這是要考量的，同時也要考量中央必須要維持一定的財政韌性，以及事權有沒有要做調整，因為經費跟事權是有相關聯的，這個部分，我們也會會同主計總處做通盤的檢討……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在具體的內容是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：具體的內容就是跟剛剛委員報告的，是這樣的。"],["黃委員國昌：你剛剛沒有談到任何具體的內容！"],["莊部長翠雲：我想委員您……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在是沒有具體的內容就對了嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有具體內容，我們來看一下歷經過去民進黨在野時候的呼籲、民進黨執政時候的承諾，到現在2024年了，不分黨派的地方首長都大聲的呼籲要修財劃法，我針對財政部在秀給大家數字的時候，數字的呈現是一門藝術，這個是你們在5月20號的時候所提出的版本嘛，你們給大家……"],["莊部長翠雲：是我們提供的。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，你們基本上面想要跟大家講的是說，其實我們中央對地方政府經常性財源挹注的情況，數額不斷在增加嘛，這個是你們從2014年到2023年數字增長，你們所畫的圖，應該沒有錯吧！"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，就是我們除了統籌分配稅款之外，還有加上一般性的補助款對地方財政的挹注。"],["黃委員國昌：我請教一下部長，你們過去這八年，統籌分配稅款占國稅的比例是增加還是減少？"],["陳署長柏誠：我們……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，請部長回答，統籌分配稅款占國稅的比例是增加還是減少？我一直說啦，統計數字的呈現有高度的藝術性，當你用絕對值來畫的時候，你要告訴全體國人的是，中央統籌分配稅款分配給地方的數額不斷的增加嘛，它占國稅的比例是增加還是減少？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，絕對數字是增加的，在比例上是微有下降，但是我們透過一般性的補助款給予補助。"],["黃委員國昌：來看一下，不好意思喔，部長請您繼續看，中央統籌分配稅款占國稅的比例逐年下降，2014年的時候14.64%，到現在2023年，去年最新的數字，這不是我算的，這是財政部的數字算出來，降低到了13.66%，所以分配給地方中央統籌分配稅款的比例占國稅的數額是逐年的在下降。剛剛部長提到了補助款，一般性的補助款占國稅的比例是逐年上升還是下降？怎麼你會比我還不熟！"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分有高有低啦，有高有低啦。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們再來看一下，2014年的時候，一般補助款占國稅的比例18.88%，從2016年以降，有超過這個水平的，大概只有2020年，占了19.05%，但到了2022年、2023年的時候，又降到了14.4%，當統籌分配稅款分給地方占國稅的比例每一年下降，一般補助款，過去八年跟以前比起來，所占的比例一樣在下降。我們看最後的這個，把統籌分配稅款跟一般的補助款占國稅的比例，請部長看一下這個圖，從2014年33.53%，到了2023年的時候，已經下降多少？到28.06%了，這兩根柱子，我們分別統籌分配稅款也好，補助款也好，你們在財政部的報告裡面，不願意揭露的數字是什麼？占國稅的percentage實際上是什麼？實際上，過去這八年跟以前比起來，是逐年在下降。","現在問題就來了，如果在民進黨執政以前，修財政收支劃分法是必要的，要去擴大給地方政府的財源是必要的，那為什麼在民主進步黨執政以後，明明所占的比例是下降的，明明所占的比例是下降的，但現在對於修財劃法的態度，中央政府展現出來的就是能拖就拖嘛，能混就混嘛。","我最後一個最關鍵的問題，你剛剛說有很多版本，這些版本我全部都整理出來了，有陳水扁時期的政院版，有馬英九時期的政院版，有馬英九執政時期的時候民進黨的黨團版，針對垂直分配的問題，到底要怎麼樣去擴大統籌分配稅款的財源，從陳水扁到馬英九，到馬英九時期在野的民主進步黨黨團，全部都有版本。現在我們苦苦在等，一直問、問不到的是過去八年，蔡英文政府澈底跳票，因為這是蔡英文總統在2015年提出來的承諾嘛，說他過去八年澈底跳票這句話說的一點都沒有錯。現在問題來了，賴清德總統上任了，擔任行政院院長的時候，他也說要修財劃法，我現在具體的問，在你們所規劃要擴大統籌分配稅款的方向，具體的內容，你們的版本是比較靠近陳水扁的政院版、馬英九的政院版，還是馬英九執政時期的時候民主進步黨黨團的版本？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，對於這一個部分，我們必須要考量，因為時間的不同，中央跟地方的財政狀況必須要重新考量……"],["黃委員國昌：是啊，我們看了到嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個必須要重新考量……"],["黃委員國昌：我們剛剛看到具體的數字，就是分配給地方的數額占國稅的比例逐年下降啊，這完全是財政部的data，我沒有說錯啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：但是中央支出同樣也是增加，譬如說，像社福經費就達到九千多億，占整體的經費達到27%，還有國防支出，所以我覺得這個部分必須要從整體來看，中央的經費支出同樣重要……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦，中央有非常多的支出，我們都瞭解，bottom line是賴清德總統新的內閣有沒有要像過去的政府一樣，負責任的提出行政院的版本？有還是沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，第一個，過去提出版本為什麼沒有能夠完成修法，就是因為沒有共識，就是地方之間分配沒有共識，所以我們現在針對這個部分在做處理……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，我現在在問你的是垂直分配的問題。"],["莊部長翠雲：垂直分配剛剛也報告過，我們會把水平分配調整完以後，跟主計總處做整體的討論。第一個，地方的財政是需要考慮，中央的財政韌性也要維持……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，所以目前財政部的立場是，你所謂的共識是過半的縣市有共識就可以，還是要所有的縣市都有共識？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們一定要把這個縮小，一定讓它達到最大的一個共識。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的共識指的是什麼？只要有一個縣市提出不同的公式反對，財劃法就不用修嗎？是這樣嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：那我們也要告訴它原因是什麼，讓它能夠接受，這個部分我們會努力……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們的版本什麼時候要提出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：現在這個部分就是在凝聚共識的過程嘛，我提的版本，大家都沒有共識也沒有用，因為差距很遠……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了啦，從2018年賴清德當行政院長，到現在2024年繼續用沒有共識當作搪塞的理由……"],["莊部長翠雲：不是搪塞的理由。"],["黃委員國昌：我個人是沒有辦法接受的，沒有關係，接下來我們財委會就要召開公聽會，進行實質的審查，我希望賴清德總統不要忘了他自己在2018年當行政院院長的時候做出來的承諾，現在用水平分配地方政府沒有共識當作藉口，連行政院的版本都提不出來！謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：不是藉口，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接著請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","黃珊珊","黃國昌","李彥秀","李坤城","郭國文","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","鄭正鈐","牛煦庭","萬美玲","邱鎮軍","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","邱若華"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-06-03"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支\n劃分法修正草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇\n甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法財政收支"},{"start":193.621,"end":214.096,"text":"的規模。」剛剛你一直都在推給水平分配。我們前幾次質詢的時候,這個問題都討論過了。我們針對問題具體的來談。你們所提出的研修方向,第一個擴大中央統籌分配稅款的規模。請問你們針對這個研修方向目前的規劃是什麼?"},{"start":215.233,"end":242.851,"text":"跟委員報告,擴大統籌分配稅款的規模是我們的一個方向,但是在這個規模...具體的內容是什麼?具體的內容我們必須要去思考第一個,我們要考量地方的財政需求是要考量的,同時也要考量中央必須要維持一定的財政韌性,以及事權有沒有要做調整,因為經費跟事權是有相關聯的,那這個部分呢我們也會會同主計總結...所以現在具體的內容是什麼?具體的內容就是跟剛剛委員報告是這樣的,"},{"start":244.858,"end":271.765,"text":"你剛沒有談到任何具體的內容所以現在是沒有具體的內容就對了嗎?沒有具體內容我們來看一下歷經了過去民進黨在野的時候的呼籲民進黨執政的時候的承諾到現在2024年了不分黨派的地方首長都急修大聲的呼籲要修財劃法"},{"start":273.12,"end":300.421,"text":"我針對財政部在秀給大家數字的時候數字的呈現是一門藝術這個是你們在5月20號的時候所提出的版本嘛你們給大家對嘛,好林志玲上面想要跟大家講的是說其實我們中央對地方政府經常性裁員挹注的情況數額不斷在增加嘛"},{"start":301.657,"end":326.288,"text":"這是你們從2014年到2023年數字增長你們所畫的圖應該沒有錯吧?是的,就是我們除了統籌分配稅款之外還有加上一般性的補助款來我請教一下部長你們過去這8年統籌分配款佔國稅的比例是增加還是減少?不好意思,請部長回答"},{"start":331.944,"end":351.827,"text":"統籌分配款占國稅的比例是增加還是減少?」我一直說啦統計數字的呈現有高度的藝術性當你用絕對值來畫的時候你要告訴全體國人的是中央統籌分配款分配給地方的數額不斷的增加嘛它占國稅的比例是增加還減少"},{"start":353.565,"end":375.342,"text":"額﹑第一個,絕對數字是增加的,在比例上是唯有下降,但是我們有透過一般性的補助款可以補助。不好意思喔,部長請您繼續去看齁。中央統籌分配款佔國稅的比例逐年下降。2014年的時候,14.64,到現在2023年,去年最新的數字,這不是我算的。"},{"start":376.417,"end":394.831,"text":"這是財政部的數字算出來的降低到了13.66所以分配給地方中央統籌分配款的比例佔國稅的數額是逐年的在下降剛剛部長提到了補助款一般性的補助款佔國稅的比例是逐年上升還下降怎麼你會比我還不熟"},{"start":403.388,"end":415.954,"text":"這個部分有高有低啦好來我們再來看一下2014年的時候一般補助款占國稅的比例18.88%從2016年以降有超過這個水平的大概只有2020年占了19.05但"},{"start":423.257,"end":450.575,"text":"到了2022年、2023年的時候又降到了14.40當統籌分配款分給地方佔國稅的比例每一年下降一般補助款過去8年跟以前比起來所佔的比例一樣在下降我們看最後的這個把統籌分配款跟一般的補助款佔國稅的比例來請部長看一下這個圖"},{"start":453.741,"end":482.034,"text":"從2014年33.53%到了2023年的時候已經下降多少?到28.06%了這兩根柱子我們分別統籌分配款也好、補助款也好你們在財政部的報告裡面不願意接候的數字是什麼?佔國稅的percentage實際上是什麼?實際上過去這8年跟以前比起來是逐年在下降"},{"start":482.745,"end":507.466,"text":"那現在問題就來了如果在民進黨執政以前修財政收支劃分法是必要的要去擴大給地方政府的財源是必要的那為什麼在民主進步黨執政以後民民所佔的比例是下降的民民所佔的比例是下降的那現在對於修財劃法的態度"},{"start":508.584,"end":527.146,"text":"中央政府展現出來的就是能拖就拖嘛能混就混嘛來我最後一個阿最關鍵的問題你剛說阿有很多版本這個版本我全部都整理出來了有陳水扁時期的政院版有馬英九時期的政院版"},{"start":527.947,"end":548.448,"text":"有馬英九執政時期的時候民眾黨的黨團版針對垂直分配的問題到底要怎麼樣去擴大統籌分配款的財源從陳水扁到馬英九到馬英九時期在野的民主進步黨黨團全部都有版本"},{"start":549.609,"end":572.856,"text":"現在我們苦苦在等一直問問不到的是過去8年蔡英文政府徹底跳票因為這是蔡英文總統在2015年提出來的承諾嘛說她過去8年徹底跳票這句話一點說的都沒有錯現在問題來了賴清德總統上任了擔任行政院院長的時候他也說要修財劃法"},{"start":574.042,"end":591.15,"text":"我現在具體地問在你們所規劃要擴大統籌分配款的方向具體的內容你們的版本是比較靠近陳水扁的政院版馬英九的政院版還是馬英九執政時期的時候民主進步黨黨團的版本"},{"start":592.951,"end":608.783,"text":"跟委員報告,對於這一個部分我們必須要考量一個時間的不同,中央跟地方的一個財政狀況必須要重新考量。我們剛剛看到具體的數字,就是分配給地方的數額,佔國稅的比例逐年下降啊。"},{"start":609.663,"end":631.628,"text":"這完全是財政部的data我沒有說錯啊但是中央支出同樣也是增加比如說像社福經費就達到9000多元但整體的經費達到27%還有國防支出所以我覺得這個部分必須要從整體來看沒有關係啦中央有非常多的支出我們都瞭解中央有非常多的支出我們都瞭解buffline是"},{"start":633.325,"end":637.648,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續擬具"},{"start":648.837,"end":667.449,"text":"就是因為沒有共識就是地方之間分配沒有共識所以我們不好意思喔我現在在問你的是垂直分配的問題垂直分配剛剛也報告過第一個我們會把水平分配這邊調整完以後跟主計總處做整體的討論第一個地方的財政是需要考慮所以目前財政病的立場"},{"start":670.15,"end":696.223,"text":"所以目前財政部的立場是你所謂的共識是過半的縣市有共識就可以還是要所有的縣市都有共識?我們一定要把這個縮小一定讓他達到最大的一個共識所以你的共識指的是什麼?只要有一個縣市提出不同的公式反對財化法就不用修嗎?是這樣嗎?我們也要告訴他原因是什麼讓他能夠接受所以你們的版本什麼時候要提出來?"},{"start":697.363,"end":724.563,"text":"現在這個部分就是在凝聚共識的過程嘛我提的版本大家都沒有共識也沒有用我這樣說好了啦從2018年賴清德當行政院長到現在2024年繼續用沒有共識當作唐賽的理由我個人是沒有辦法接受那沒有關係接下來我們財委會就要召開公聽會進行實質的審查我希望賴清德總統賴清德總統"},{"start":726.764,"end":729.808,"text":"收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具:「財政"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}