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text":"決定一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員質詢會及答覆或請補充資訊請金融監督管理委員會於一周內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定三、委員審發會、劉明財、高嘉宜所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請金融監督管理委員會以書面答覆通過臨時提案一案宣讀完畢好,我們現在現場委員人數不夠我們等一下再對議事做確定那請議事委員宣讀今日議程"},{"start":2037.864,"end":2038.324,"text":"案,宣達完畢。"},{"start":2063.544,"end":2089.143,"text":"好,那我們現在原力介紹在場委員跟政府官員我們現在在場委員有費鴻泰委員吳秉瑞委員林德福委員那我們現在就委員過我們就先就議事錄的部分對於議事錄有沒有異議沒有異議那我們議事錄確定"},{"start":2092.932,"end":2120.209,"text":"那今天與會的政府官員今天有我們金管會的黃天牧主任委員銀行局的莊秀元局長政企局的黃厚明副局長保險局的施瓊華局長檢察局的張子昊局長另外我們立法院預算中心黃朝勤主任"},{"start":2123.113,"end":2125.726,"text":"法治局、立法院法治局的黃良營組長"},{"start":2128.943,"end":2154.368,"text":"我們今天的議程安排邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主委就開放銀行政策的回顧跟展望還有純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告另外我們要審查本院民主進步黨黨團所擬具中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文的修正草案現在我們先請金管會黃主委進行專題報告"},{"start":2165.103,"end":2180.808,"text":"主席貴委員先進大家好今天大院第10屆第8會期貴委員會第20次全體委員會議陳貴委員會邀請就開放銀行的政策的回顧展望及純網銀、純網保的發展與挑戰進行專題報告、進行質詢"},{"start":2187.728,"end":2210.146,"text":"開放銀行的政策回顧與展望國際間在過去對於開放銀行有發展的趨勢有不同的做法我們參考新加坡與香港的做法是鼓勵業者以自願自立的方式分三階段推動第一階段是公開資料查詢第二階段是消費者資訊查詢第三階段是交易面資訊的查詢"},{"start":2212.712,"end":2232.06,"text":"但為了要確保金融機構在提供開放銀行業務的時候有一致的標準來保障消費者權益我們已經督導銀行工會跟財經公司依據前兩階段開放資料的範圍訂定了相關自律規範跟技術跟治安標準"},{"start":2234.397,"end":2261.066,"text":"為了簡化這兩第二階段申請跟審核的程序銀行如果同時跟多家第三方服務者及TSB業者合作的話可以併案申請那銀行合作的TSB業者已經儘管會同意其他銀行與之合作辦理第二階段業務的話那麼也且有相關的資安措施也不需再審核該TSB業者資安控管目前辦理情況"},{"start":2262.349,"end":2281.184,"text":"第一階段公開資料查詢從108年9月上線到今年10月底27家銀行6家業者參與統計總發查的交易量是4212萬筆平均每個月查的交易量是102萬筆主要是查匯率、利率跟信用卡產品資訊第二階段是消費者資訊查詢"},{"start":2291.618,"end":2308.793,"text":"你也包括相關消費者金融賬戶相關往來資訊所以規範比較嚴謹所以你也督導銀行公會跟財經公司訂定了相關的規範跟治安標準包括領選原則、爭議處理機制、消費者保護、線上授權跟銀行認證的程序"},{"start":2315.677,"end":2328.202,"text":"從109年12月上線到今年10月底有17家金融機構、兩家業者、24個合作案合準上線總計的交易量是2638萬筆每月的交易量是從25萬筆到149萬筆整個的交易量"},{"start":2340.615,"end":2344.299,"text":"從110年的295萬筆成長到114萬年的1495萬筆所以也有穩定的成長第三階段是屬於交易面那麼"},{"start":2352.677,"end":2380.228,"text":"整個牽涉到的因素更為複雜我們請銀行工會洽商財經公司也跟銀行工會嚴律相關的自律規範跟資安標準預計在年底前會核備核備之後進一步在相關業者參與的情況之下能夠進一步擴大開放銀行服務的廣度跟深度其次網路銀行部分"},{"start":2381.311,"end":2391.899,"text":"我們在107年4月提出了開放純網銀的政策方向108年7月公布了三家純網銀的設立在109年底、110年2月跟110年12月合發了樂天、連線跟將來銀行的執照三家純網銀在109年底到111年初陸續開業"},{"start":2408.018,"end":2429.254,"text":"今晚會再協助純網銀業務發展的措施。第一個,持續開放線上金融服務的措施,包括線上開戶貸款申請對象第三類數位存款帳戶的轉帳限額,還有晶片、金融卡、作業啟用、新卡等方式。第二點,我們持續"},{"start":2430.666,"end":2443.029,"text":"保持跟純網銀的業務聯繫跟進行法規的調適因為初期在營運初期它的資訊成本還有建立客戶規模等等所以整個的營運上成本支出比較多"},{"start":2445.148,"end":2464.609,"text":"我們已經從去年到今年至少三次正式的已經跟三家純網銀做面對面的溝通那麼就相關法人開戶存款受信基金銷售的事項那麼在兼顧分控的情況之下同意純網銀得以採試辦的方式"},{"start":2467.348,"end":2490.394,"text":"已完成修法程序第七頁,包括對於基金銷售、境外基金業務銷售和有關保險部分,這些都是在過去這一年我們所做的努力,請各位委員參考。在充實業務方面,除了前面所說的"},{"start":2491.997,"end":2516.304,"text":"純網銀能夠兼營人身財產保險跟網路投保、兼營信託業務之外我們在事辦業務方面在第8頁我們也同意事辦包括法人客戶以非電子傳送管道輔助執行開戶身份驗證作業以及線上申請防盜業務的抵押權設定以非電子傳送管道傳送方式辦理等等的這個業務三項業務"},{"start":2519.605,"end":2544.75,"text":"我們會繼續跟純網銀保持密切的聯繫隨時瞭解他們的需求以更開放、友善的態度去協助我們的純網銀業務的發展在純網保的部分我們也看到了國外有一些國家在純網保公司發展的一些進展所以我們在110年底提出了開放純網銀保公司的政策"},{"start":2546.516,"end":2569.358,"text":"目的是希望推廣創新商品因為希望國內的保險市場因為商品部分同質性高創新性不足希望透過純網保的這個政策引導金融科技生態圈的投資導入金融科技技術數據資源跟金融機構的合作開發創新商品另外也可以擴大保險的這個保障"},{"start":2571.38,"end":2584.513,"text":"我們在111年6月、第10月完成了設立許可及管理辦法在8到10月受理了兩家業者申請純網保後來有一家業者因為相關的申請文件不符"},{"start":2593.733,"end":2616.77,"text":"已經駁回。另外一家業者因為規劃我們認為審查後是覺得並不夠完備所以也決定一無反應。但是我們對於開放保險公司這種電子商務跟跨業合作的努力仍然不斷地在進行"},{"start":2617.901,"end":2646.827,"text":"今年10月,我們修正了保險業電子商務應注意事項跟異業合作推廣保險業業務應注意事項的規定大幅放寬了保險業者跟金融科技業、異業合作與事辦方式辦理創新型商品的這樣的一個法規的程序跟簡化它的程序那目前了解我們也有一兩家業者正在參與前面的這樣一開放的規定在跟異業做一些合作的討論中"},{"start":2648.854,"end":2665.134,"text":"那至於說未來純網保是不是會繼續開放我們正在審慎的瞭解市場上的需求以及未來開放在這個發展上的可行性預計在明年一月底之前會公佈評估結果"},{"start":2667.247,"end":2687.039,"text":"以上為了應應金融科技創新服務的發展趨勢提供客戶更多元完善的金融服務金管會會議在兼顧風險消費者權益的保護之下盡量朝運用科技結合創新鼓勵創新發展多元數位化金融服務的方向去努力以上報告敬請委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2694.858,"end":2720.373,"text":"好,我們現在開始進行詢答先做以下宣告每位初席委員發言8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言5分鐘必要時得延長1分鐘今天上午10點截止登記發言本次會議委員若有修正動議等提案請即送主席台,必便整理現在依登記順序請登記第一位林德福委員上台質詢"},{"start":2739.717,"end":2743.521,"text":"委員長主委早主委我請教因為上個禮拜四財經公司112年度的金融資訊系統年會的專題演講"},{"start":2765.799,"end":2792.589,"text":"那央行的副總裁朱美麗表示數位貨幣CBDC可能會成為未來整個貨幣體系的核心那央行正審視評估探索發行數位貨幣的可能性那我請教黃主委你認為國內數位貨幣發行的可能性高或不高"},{"start":2794.639,"end":2807.743,"text":"若是央行的CBDC的話可能要尊重中央銀行的意見以央行目前的整個研究規劃速度今晚會要無縫接軌數位貨幣發行後的相關業務你認為有沒有困難?"},{"start":2814.938,"end":2835.121,"text":"拜委員這個CBDC的發行國際間是有一些央行在處理但是國內的央行怎麼做目前來講我們沒有看到相關的規劃主委因為數位貨幣一旦推行你認為需不需要推廣這個擴大的普及率"},{"start":2838.898,"end":2853.785,"text":"當然就是既然要用央行數位貨幣表示它是一個通貨當然希望能夠在不同的場域都能夠使用主委因為前行政院長陳聰也說預計2028年全世界主要先進國家"},{"start":2855.356,"end":2879.005,"text":"都將使用CBDC他認為金管會包括央行、數位部三大機關到目前為止仍在互踢啤酒這是橫向聯繫的一個失靈淪為變成三個和尚美水喝那我請教主委你認為他說的是不是事實其實"},{"start":2883.584,"end":2902.575,"text":"中央銀行對於數位央行貨幣的研究我的瞭解是一直在進行其實除了朱副總裁的報告之外前兩年楊總裁有在其他的場合做過一些報告那我覺得這部分"},{"start":2903.395,"end":2905.417,"text":"二、審查本院民進黨團審查程序第三條文修正草"},{"start":2914.642,"end":2943.474,"text":"報告委員其實CBDC各國其實也都討論到一些它的得失優劣了那我覺得這個部分還是央行是主政單位為貨幣的發行我想監理機關這邊不能越主帶袍去替央行決定那我請教針對數位貨幣的推動軍網會目前的推動有沒有哪些工作的一些準備準備工作"},{"start":2945.424,"end":2945.524,"text":"主席"},{"start":2961.866,"end":2975.583,"text":"因為央行租戶總裁說金融數位化已經是不可逆如果未來決定導入數位貨幣應避免去金融中介化"},{"start":2977.216,"end":2998.125,"text":"而且與其他的支付工具並存確保互通性並考慮它的效率性及支持創新我請問主委請您說明國內導入數位貨幣與金融中介化之間到底有沒有什麼關聯性"},{"start":3000.851,"end":3026.159,"text":"我不太瞭解這個論述後面的背景我還是要跟委員報告這個央行數位貨幣完全是貨幣的另外一種形式的發行這是屬於中央銀行的權責主委因為國內數位數位貨幣為什麼要有這個金融中介的必要性你有什麼看法"},{"start":3028.314,"end":3042.432,"text":"我個人不太了解後面的論述的意義是什麼因為金融中介是金融機構吸收社會大眾資金再開放給需要資金的企業跟個人"},{"start":3043.66,"end":3044.781,"text":"二、中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條文修"},{"start":3064.445,"end":3064.725,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3085.089,"end":3099.262,"text":"因為數位貨幣透過金融中介的這種方式達到使用的目的請問以目前整個國內行業中你認為哪些是適合從事金融中介的業務?你認為呢?"},{"start":3101.152,"end":3102.393,"text":"主委,因為有學者一直認為說"},{"start":3123.713,"end":3150.907,"text":"國家數位貨幣由中央銀行來發行在金融電子化的時代下現金將會被取代那對民眾來說要做好市場買賣、夜市小吃等等這些小額的支付店家不收現鈔的支付環境請問主委你認為在臺灣CBDC與其他支付的支付並存的情況下到底應該是數位貨幣"},{"start":3153.148,"end":3173.276,"text":"會全面取代現金還是採用多方式的這個貨幣支付的環境會比較可能首先還是這是央行的整體的規劃不太了解他的規劃第二個即會不談央行CBDC談我們現在金管會推的一個盡量降低現金使用的方案來講"},{"start":3174.156,"end":3193.734,"text":"並沒有說完全剝奪民眾就希望只是鼓勵大家多使用非現金的方式交易並沒有讓民眾使用現金的機會被剝奪我想這是應該是非常重要的因為很多弱勢的民眾他不見得習慣使用電子方式的交易還是要給他機會讓他能夠使用現金交易"},{"start":3194.975,"end":3218.525,"text":"因為目前央行定位數位貨幣的傾向立場金融中介機構在間接金融架構中扮演著資金樞紐的一個角色那透過金融中介的機構的運作可有效來降低整個資訊不對稱所引起的逆向選擇與道德風險的問題"},{"start":3222.474,"end":3234.907,"text":"解決資金流通阻礙固在市場上大部分資金的通融均透過金融中介機構我請問主委現在整個貨幣銀行的所有措施會一體適用在數位貨幣上嗎?"},{"start":3243.695,"end":3243.795,"text":"議員主席響鐘"},{"start":3268.421,"end":3287.929,"text":"主委,例如說像數位貨幣有無銀行利息的產生,要不要規範銀行的管理費用,未來數位貨幣會不會與國際間的數位貨幣同步的接軌,那制度如果不同,你認為到底有沒有相互流通的可行方式?"},{"start":3288.689,"end":3288.929,"text":"主委主委"},{"start":3310.347,"end":3323.398,"text":"美元升息、新台幣貶值、保惠收入衰退等三大不利讓授權這些資金持續的淨流出今年10月中有8個月保險"},{"start":3327.68,"end":3347.325,"text":"總期戶大於保惠收入累計淨流出1641億元續創史上同期最大量我請問主委受險持續淨流出會不會發生市場流動性危機或風險?"},{"start":3349.646,"end":3367.481,"text":"您槌尋的問題非常重要我在這邊跟您報告我想保險公司目前來講不會有流動性的問題它的流動性也不是用保費支出跟收入的缺合去算因為保險業本身就有很多上上有其他的流動性的資產可以隨時去運用的"},{"start":3367.941,"end":3378.556,"text":"目前是沒有而且我們會嚴格觀察整個的趨勢因為目前受選還是存在繼續淨流出的危機那我請問主委對於明年的整個狀況你怎麼看"},{"start":3381.124,"end":3405.251,"text":"我們在前兩個禮拜已經提升了相關保費保險商品的責任準備金利率應該有對於保費的降低有一定程度的影響所以這個部分可能也會提升明年這個對保險商品的買氣那你認為像這些授權業又要怎麼樣來解決淨流出的危機呢"},{"start":3406.618,"end":3419.953,"text":"我想就做好本身的流動性的管理然後在商品的銷售上面銷售更符合民眾需要然後符合接軌需要的商品這樣喔?好,謝謝謝謝委員指導,謝謝好,謝謝接下來請吳秉瑞委員上台質詢"},{"start":3442.17,"end":3471.11,"text":"主席麻煩請金管會黃主委請黃主委上台備選是委員長主委早我今天看到幾個問題想要跟你請教就是今天的媒體有報導說這個中國借選那中國借選的可能性很高加上大量的資訊可能最後都會氾濫其中這個借選有一個工具"},{"start":3472.045,"end":3501.351,"text":"他認為是虛擬貨幣要求這個國安跟檢調單位要盯緊這個虛擬貨幣的這個交易說虛擬貨幣這個東西當然是隨著科技的發展發達好像新的東西然後很多人就會去接受可是他隱身的弊端也實在是非常的多啊那像這個又變成一個簡單來講也是另外一種洗錢嘛他要支付他不能夠透過人民幣支付"},{"start":3502.352,"end":3516.475,"text":"那不能夠透過這個換匯的支付他就用虛擬貨幣來支付也達到他要支付的目的啊所以這個問題不知道你怎麼看台灣到底對這個虛擬貨幣的管理到底應該要到什麼樣的程度啊"},{"start":3517.699,"end":3535.595,"text":"謝謝委員指導我想幾年前法務部在協調相關主管機關的時候就責成金管會作為虛擬資產尤其是屬於支付性質、投資性質的洗錢房制主管機關所以對業者我們就要求他填去洗錢房制的遵循的聲明書"},{"start":3536.736,"end":3556.167,"text":"今年年初,行政委員會指示,金管會作為虛擬資產投資跟支付性質的主管機關。我們在九月份發布指導原則,現在相關業者的平台業者應該在年底前會成立工會。我們在目前來講,明年應該進一步就可以把我們指導原則跟工會的"},{"start":3558.248,"end":3586.431,"text":"自律規範去做一個結合這部分還有包括檢察局這邊也有已經有前段時間有做過訪查現在開始規劃去檢查這是目前我們正在做的事情主委你這樣講我知道你們很努力但是那個願意臺面上話臺面話願意參加工會願意遵守規律的這些的廠商一般是比較優良的廠商比較願意遵守你規範的這個"},{"start":3588.544,"end":3589.285,"text":"二、審查本院民進黨團擬具"},{"start":3610.936,"end":3620.321,"text":"那些躲在陽光底下根本就沒有參加公會根本就一個沒有跟你登記你也不知道的他也在做交易那怎麼辦"},{"start":3622.355,"end":3649.404,"text":"其實這個在各行業都有合法跟非法的這種情況那我們從過去這兩年包括美國的跟香港的這些虛弊包括日本這些倒閉的事情已經多次提醒我們的投資人要跟合法的平台業者去往來當然我們沒辦法說防止每個人不跟非法的業者去往來那只能不斷的去去宣導去溝通對那我想如果要借選"},{"start":3650.504,"end":3665.82,"text":"通過虛擬貨幣這樣的通路來做借選的這個支付工具的話他當然不可能走檯面上的合法的這些業者不可能走有參加這個工會的這些自律的業者"},{"start":3666.821,"end":3695.027,"text":"所以我在問的是說我們臺灣到底像我其實我一直對虛擬貨幣的這個把它合法化的交易我一直是抱持著有一些疑慮但是如果政府機關真的要做的時候盡量擴大納入管理那如何去嚴懲這一些根本就不接根本也不參加自律根本也不遵守這個規範甚至是別人借選的工具的這些的廠商要如何來處理是比較急迫的問題"},{"start":3696.677,"end":3722.074,"text":"這部分其實我們不論跟法務部或是跟相關檢調單位其實也都有在溝通包括洗房法這方面在處理另外第二個問題是昨天我看到謝金河老師他的Facebook上面他在痛斥這個Google去接受廣告然後又有人冒用他的名義"},{"start":3723.612,"end":3745.486,"text":"然後又再開設這些所謂的這些股市的這些詐騙的這些類似股友社這類的東西他還表明說Google如果再不改進他要控告Google那我們以前曾經為了這個問題曾經談論過你說這些跨國公司的一些大型的跨國公司的這個網站"},{"start":3747.905,"end":3766.984,"text":"現在是我們如果告訴他,他就願意下架因為有那個法律規定之後,是不是這樣?是,也是在行政院的督導協調之下我們在今年六月底也是謝謝大院、財委會委員支持《投信投顧法》70條修正那現在有法源了,那其實"},{"start":3768.946,"end":3796.031,"text":"昨天那個消息其實我們了解謝董事長的這個訊息我們自己在政企局自己本身透過自己的管道看到謝先生被冒用我們有跟這個刑事局跟Google Meta叫他下架我們的周邊單位從網路資訊上搜尋也有謝先生的被冒用的情況我們也每天都有通知警政單位去同意去處理這個事情"},{"start":3797.051,"end":3801.965,"text":"此事說,我們雖然有做過這些動作,後面又有新的冒用的情況發生。"},{"start":3805.376,"end":3831.149,"text":"正常來講你們通知了之後通知了Google之後他多久會下架他應該最晚一天之內二、四小時之內就要下架好那希望我是這個是真的很痛苦因為只要是知名人士每一個都有被冒用每一個都有被這樣子的風險當然因為謝老師他在財經領域然後他又是這麼高知名度的人物他受害的可能性很高其實很多公眾人物都有這樣受害的經驗那"},{"start":3833.939,"end":3844.85,"text":"不知道為什麼我們經過這麼多的努力宣傳這麼多努力的這樣子的講還有這麼多人願意相信這些東西這個到底是問題的環節到底是出在哪裡"},{"start":3846.818,"end":3847.779,"text":"主席"},{"start":3865.692,"end":3879.619,"text":"好,那就回到今天的問題了純網銀事實上設立到現在到今年的6月是三家加起來累虧是66億台幣那現在已經是年底了那第三季有比較好嗎?"},{"start":3880.854,"end":3908.262,"text":"今年的第三季有報告嗎?我目前沒有第三季的資料不過看起來應該今年還是有增資有一兩家公司都有辦理增資所以很合理的推算第三季也可能還是繼續累虧啦第四季恐怕也不是那麼樂觀你有沒有什麼樣的想法因為當初這個純網銀的設計是認為說他幾年之後就能開始賺錢嘛其實他要負擔的人力成本什麼東西都是比較低的"},{"start":3909.122,"end":3934.144,"text":"在某一方面是有優勢當然現在做起來好像跟我們當初規劃還有設計有點距離我相信前面幾年是因為有疫情的關係現在已經社會恢復正常了如何跟他們瞭解問題到底發生在哪裡怎麼樣辦法能不能夠瞭解他們虧損的真實原因是什麼"},{"start":3936.659,"end":3945.827,"text":"二、擴大業務,比如說你吸收的存款怎麼把它去待放,然後增加很多以手續費收入為主的一些業務,我今天在報告中也提到。"},{"start":3956.897,"end":3978.67,"text":"或是給予折扣,將會不會比另外﹐比如說我某一家我就給特別的折扣﹐我比另外兩家就更有吸引力﹐會有產生這樣的競爭的狀況嗎?這個其實我們在這個發布﹐記得在純網銀設立第一家設立之前發布新聞稿就有提到就是說當然它有競爭的優勢可是也不能夠用競爭的優勢不當影響市場的秩序"},{"start":3981.011,"end":3997.131,"text":"這部分要兼顧就像好像以前那個網路下單的這個證券商他曾經把手續費折扣到很低那後來工會也不同意阿你們也不同意嘛是類似的狀況這就是給您報告就是說他可以有他的優勢可是不能夠影響市場秩序"},{"start":3999.634,"end":4017.289,"text":"會否跟民眾的消費習慣有關?因為大部分的企業和個人都習慣在現在既有的銀行體系裡面去取得融資或是去存放。我覺得第一個,從國外的經驗來講,像英國的一個銀行,它也是五年之後才開始水一兩瓶了。"},{"start":4017.629,"end":4040.778,"text":"有的銀行,有的純網銀到目前也沒有獲利。這個需要一些時間。另外一方面,消費者的行為上面跟業務的開放和擴大上面都要齊頭並進去努力。我想我們非常了解委員的期待,也了解社會的期待。我們不斷地也在跟純網銀溝通,能夠幫他們做什麼、開放什麼,我們都在努力。"},{"start":4041.278,"end":4068.694,"text":"是,既然設立了,我們就希望他能夠茁壯,能夠走得健全但是我還是回到今天問題的第一點我覺得這個虛擬貨幣的事情還要真的是要再多一些的觀察跟思考因為這個將來如果要繼續存在影響很大我本身認為這個虛擬貨幣本身就是一個很大的很有疑問的東西啦拜委員,我跟您一樣同時持的審慎的態度不過這是一個"},{"start":4070.335,"end":4085.163,"text":"國際間都投資是一個事實我們還是必須要從投資人保護的角度去處理以前最大的靠山是中國眼看著中國的經濟就快完蛋了所以現在很多虛擬貨幣的交易所各式這樣的交易還有虛擬貨幣本身都在出問題"},{"start":4086.494,"end":4100.719,"text":"所以我是覺得這個東西還是再思考再觀察我們非常的審慎一方面要讓民眾有一個合法的管道可以投資一方面要保護投資人這個部分我們會努力好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝接下來請賴世保賴委員上台質詢"},{"start":4118.158,"end":4123.924,"text":"謝謝主席與各位先進有請黃主委請黃主委上台備選謝謝會員長黃主委早今天談純網銀"},{"start":4142.068,"end":4150.479,"text":"這個在參加到現在的虧錢呢?大家認為它break even,就是損利兩平啦,大概最快到2025,你同意嗎?"},{"start":4155.835,"end":4157.716,"text":"美國在1995年到2001年總共500多家的網銀"},{"start":4184.717,"end":4210.832,"text":"結果2005年中間就各個10年而已還在持續營運的不到10家從500減為10家這是美國的例子就代表純網銀你剛才都才解釋一些如果沒有其他的業務你是說純狂、犯狂只是說我透過網路操作比較方便"},{"start":4213.103,"end":4237.818,"text":"那你要跟傳統的銀行競爭都很難競爭因為銀行、傳統銀行裡面也有也可以用網路操作啊,對吧?是對啊,所以就是裡面有niche我就看不到除外的niche在哪裡那些孩子生出來的就是看起來養不大我不知道你心裡有什麼感受你會不會覺得有一點難過的感覺會不會?"},{"start":4240.607,"end":4264.895,"text":"我想我們覺得應該要繼續努力但是目前這個情況也並沒有特別的出乎意外因為本來就是一開始成立的時候它有很多資訊的成本還有一些相關的建制的成本所以你是不是說這三條都需要增資今年就有在增資"},{"start":4267.517,"end":4274.019,"text":"但是爭執的幅度．可能就．我們期待．不會像過去那麼多。主要是因為純網銀．"},{"start":4295.392,"end":4316.13,"text":"因為跟您報告除非一個我個人想的除非一個純網很厲害把你的錢拿進來他給你去投資可是這個要純物的同意啊我是定存的我是活存的你把我拿去投資還經過我同意除非你販售很多金融商品"},{"start":4317.131,"end":4327.695,"text":"你找人家操作,很會操作的,包括來我這裡都可以買到這個收益很高的這樣的金融商品除了這樣子,我真的活不了啊!對不對?"},{"start":4330.062,"end":4352.948,"text":"其實當初三家純網銀來申請的時候主要一個模式都是生態系每一家網銀後面都有些特質有的是電信、有的是社群媒體這些強處都沒有划得到我們再看2017年那時候行政院總教賴清德"},{"start":4355.736,"end":4365.083,"text":"遠東銀行遭到駭客入侵來清德那做了一件一件事情要銀行賠銀行要我賠喔"},{"start":4372.295,"end":4397.744,"text":"來,請問你純網銀可不可以要求預備賠償金因為現在台灣的資安不安全嘛台灣的資安我們世界上隨時被駭客很被駭然後都很便宜被賣掉所以純網銀被駭的機會是比一般的銀行更高你有沒有要求他預備賠償金有沒有目前沒有但是跟您報告可不可以考慮"},{"start":4399.127,"end":4399.508,"text":"財政委員會主席"},{"start":4414.974,"end":4435.366,"text":"那資安有沒有聯聯測試有沒有聯聯測試向你講報告拜委員您是專家啦全法院No.1就是資安風險、流動性風險、信譽風險這些都非常有七大風險現在看到網路詐騙、廣告、橫行下班時間假日更會猖獗我就問一個問題監管會有沒有專制的稽查單位"},{"start":4442.345,"end":4455.89,"text":"二、其他人員下班假日去看一看去看一看說不定我們的主委你的頭被害了也被冒用了然後去說黃天牧說怎麼投資可以賺錢等等的"},{"start":4457.301,"end":4457.721,"text":"你們要不要把這個結果定期對外公佈?"},{"start":4485.1,"end":4492.605,"text":"有啊,我們上禮拜就有公佈現在來講外界會覺得說奇怪蘇貞昌當院長時代打架國家隊14億陳建能打架的這個叫什麼隊啊13例"},{"start":4505.483,"end":4516.688,"text":"這個陳院長是辦公室蘇院長是國家隊兩個加起來27億怎麼越打越多越打越多怎麼這個樣子呢今年11月投資照片就710件超越"},{"start":4520.729,"end":4523.692,"text":"二、金融監督管理委員會財政委員會主席"},{"start":4542.025,"end":4559.035,"text":"有看到這個有被在網路上或是有人申報他被在平台上有這種不當的詐騙行為我們就通透過這個管道要求這兩個平台下架他們必須在24小時內下架如果不下架巡視局那邊就會對他要求要求他改善或懲處"},{"start":4560.497,"end":4581.596,"text":"現在外界對台灣的詐騙這麼的狠行其實只能瞄準幾個單位其中就是金管會因為一直管錢的在你受傷最有可能你工具很多啊你要幫忙是可以幫忙的另外我想今天是常委會最後一個委員會"},{"start":4582.897,"end":4583.157,"text":"穩定資本市場"},{"start":4610.728,"end":4612.729,"text":"政府政策會不會影響政府的政策?"},{"start":4638.051,"end":4666.546,"text":"產業政策、各方面貨幣政策、國際政經情況的變化、國際政經就是國內都有,只是成分的多少而已,因素很多,就像您所指的我們是主權獨立國家,這個Open Banking想股市不限我們一向都是主權獨立國家,這個Open Banking想股市不限,因為這樣我們表現特別好"},{"start":4668.3,"end":4685.519,"text":"我覺得股市基本上就是一個國家它的經濟發展的櫥窗我們來看賴清德院長說臺股超越港股是因為臺灣有主權香港沒有"},{"start":4686.755,"end":4702.443,"text":"我想老半天啊,我想奇怪,就是你講的啊,基本面啊,業績啊,好不好啊,等等的當然我也高興,台灣超過香港,我們鼓掌,好不好當然是我今天就問了,checked GPT啊,就把他問一下"},{"start":4703.704,"end":4725.802,"text":"他說,臺股超過港股表現,通常與臺灣主權沒有直接關聯,有關係的就是基本面、企業的業績、政府的政策、國際環境。一國的主權不是直接影響股市表現的主要因素嗎?這個,老實講,"},{"start":4732.133,"end":4749.191,"text":"這個賴副總統他要怎麼樣去主張他的台獨思想我們都沒有意見尊重台獨精選到底、台獨到底都沒有意見但是不需要連這個也把這個主權扯在一起早就主權早就用了過去香港都贏跑龍"},{"start":4751.093,"end":4774.094,"text":"阿台灣阿香港有沒有主權阿阿怎麼現在台灣早就有主權了中華民國主權早就是在那裡在那裡阿國際表現都比較差現在好了就是因為我們有主權這個邏輯都不通阿我們覺得非常不通的一件事阿那你剛才回答也是等於間接的間接不同意我們賴副總統所講的話最後一個"},{"start":4775.936,"end":4783.148,"text":"報告委員,您不能這樣引申,因為他作為一個說明,應該有後面的論述,可能我們要了解他的論述。"},{"start":4784.275,"end":4807.056,"text":"他的論述就是因為主權啊有主權所以表現好啊那過去表現不好為什麼也是有主權啊這不通啊我說這個邏輯不通啊另外他講到一個他講到說因為台灣經濟果實全民共享香港沒有他講到這個那我們就看啊這個最重要是什麼受雇人員的薪資除以GDP的比例"},{"start":4808.14,"end":4831.308,"text":"台灣族裔下降43%的歐盟、美國、日本大於50%台灣的68%的勞工領不到平均薪資這都是事實啊我就提醒藉這個機會提醒賴副總統你要講一些話台獨理念怎麼貫穿我都尊重但是啊要多做功課啦要說出來永久啦"},{"start":4834.074,"end":4834.354,"text":"主席請管會黃主委"},{"start":4864.301,"end":4879.371,"text":"今天所列的這個專題報告主題除了剛剛已經有一些委員討論的這個有關純網保、純網銀的這些發展以外另外一個部分就是有關我們開放銀行政策的回顧跟展望"},{"start":4881.625,"end":4908.632,"text":"我看這我們開放銀行的政策我們大概包括今天的書面報告就是我們是分在開放銀行部分分為三個階段來辦理第一個階段第一個階段大概就是存單純是公開資料公開資訊的揭露第二個階段則就是在這些個資的部分那進入要進入這個第三階段就是"},{"start":4909.586,"end":4924.524,"text":"牽涉到交易面,對不對?我這樣理解,對不對?是的,比較牽涉到個人交易面的更敏感的資訊就不只是資訊了,它是交易面了這才是第三階段嘛前兩個階段都是資訊啦都是公開的資訊或者是個人資訊"},{"start":4926.431,"end":4951.936,"text":"大概在這個108年9月2019年9月大概第一個階段就已經開始做了公開資料的查詢那在109年12月就是第二個階段有消費者的資訊的查詢大概都可以那我們接下來以我的理解我們是要在今年就是今年年底要實施第三階段是不是要進入第三階段"},{"start":4952.825,"end":4973.603,"text":"是這樣子報告中說是我們說好自律規範跟資安相關的機制把它報備之後呢要讓社會大眾像銀行業者瞭解我們預計什麼時候在這邊講好了恐怕要做應該到明年上半年如果有業者願意去做的話明年上半年對我們自己的準備工作包括這個這個"},{"start":4977.012,"end":5001.207,"text":"我們工會所做的這個第三階段有關交易部分的這個這個自律規範是不是已經有我們有沒有已經擬定出來了?有,就是年底前我們會核備年底前會核備?今年年底會核備他們送給我們的嗎?應該有,有好,送給我們的他跟第二階段的這個自律規範有沒有什麼樣的差別?一模一樣還是"},{"start":5002.562,"end":5009.208,"text":"應該比較複雜,是主要是交易面、資安面方面對,因為他牽涉到交易面,但是我沒有看到他...局長說明一下"},{"start":5012.478,"end":5033.863,"text":"報告委員因為第三階段是交易要發動所以其實資安就非常重要所以現在在那個工會定的還有財經公司定的資安還有技術的標準裡面會針對說哪些可以開放作為交易會定出一些項目來然後應該注意的個資還有資安的一些標準好"},{"start":5036.902,"end":5062.324,"text":"這個你們有沒有回答我的問題啦我是說他們已經送來了你們不知道看過了沒有他的內容他現在的新的針對第三階段的這個自律規範跟原本第二階段的自律規範他有沒有改變有沒有更加嚴謹這針對交易的部分報言裡面其實有幾項重點啦就是說你跟我講有沒有改變就好了有有有改變因為我我這看齁這個"},{"start":5064.606,"end":5092.188,"text":"主委我們第一階段只是單純公開資訊的查詢的時候有27家金融機構來參與有6家TSP業者參與到第二階段開始要揭露個資的時候就說到剩下17家金融機構參與了也就10家他說我公開資訊可以但是你要到個資他就不參與這個開放銀行的部分了"},{"start":5092.998,"end":5094.041,"text":"TSP業者從6家縮成2家"},{"start":5100.795,"end":5121.542,"text":"以這樣子的做法看我們在一開始第一階段實施光是公開資訊我們有38家金融業者27家參加有11家他不願意參加這公開資訊的這個開放銀行的部分那我們接下來現在就要進入第三階段在第三階段的部分我們預計會有多少家來參與的這我們有沒有了解"},{"start":5123.786,"end":5148.226,"text":"我想加速應該不會像第一階段那麼多因為主要是因為交易面牽涉到的資訊特別的敏感所以大家是不是信任那個TSP業者TSP業者願不願意做都是一個因素對主委你講到重點了大家信不信任這個這個TSP業者這個你講的這個金融機構這麼專業都不知道信不信任了更何況消費者這是一個三方的關係這是金融業者這個這個"},{"start":5150.921,"end":5167.644,"text":"金融業者跟這個TSP業者跟這個消費者三方的關係對不對是三方的關係如果說連金融業者他都他對這個TSP業者他都還有一些疑慮的話那消費者要怎麼相信這些他怎麼如何信任這個平台呢"},{"start":5168.835,"end":5192.363,"text":"所以我們陳文寧剛剛也垂詢的所以在我們對於工會跟財經的規範才會不一樣工會是自律規範的部分財經公司是針對因為他這個是完全是線上的他的資安我們對他資安的要求這個是一定是最重要尤其要進入交易成面這個資安的要求但是我們知道依照現在的法令"},{"start":5193.163,"end":5207.5,"text":"依照現在的法令這個我們銀行金融業者本身他因為是國家基礎建設所以他對我們對他的資安要求等級是最高的對不對是最高的但是我們對TSP業者我們的資安要求有到這個等級嗎"},{"start":5209.793,"end":5228.578,"text":"TSP業者必須要透過銀行去跟他之間去制約他,不是透過我們。我們對於TSP業者的資安要求有到銀行這個等級嗎?沒有啊。沒有嗎?對啊。但他事實上他在做同樣同樣的這個他必須可以存款、可以扣款、可以交易可以做這個帳戶的變動"},{"start":5231.636,"end":5253.722,"text":"不過就是像第二階段是吉寶跟遠傳遠傳那這部分吉寶當然是我們的周邊單位啦那相對比較大家比較我覺得我的意思是在這個這個資安的要求資安技術層面的要求上面我我認為說你至少在要進入第三階段的時候對於這些TSP業者他的資安的要求"},{"start":5254.542,"end":5277.217,"text":"應該要有所提升你至少把TSB業者他是不是有涉專業的資安人員這個我們都不知道目前也沒有規範沒有要求更何況如果萬一這些TSB業者他的在這個他是他的網路服務是委外他在委外進行網路這個網路服務的話那這些網路服務的作業他的資安的要求成績就更低了"},{"start":5278.223,"end":5306.878,"text":"委員非常感謝您今天提出來這些提醒因為我自己沒有看到還在局裡審查我回去之後會立刻找局裡面就您所垂詢的重點去檢視是不是符合這樣的一個要求好那在一樣這個部分再跟你談這個消費者如果萬一發生消費者爭議我剛剛講過它是三方關係是消費者、TSP業者跟金融機關三方的關係它有三個合約有三個合約的關係但卻在一次交易行為裡面完成"},{"start":5308.087,"end":5335.169,"text":"這個之後如果萬一發生消費爭議的時候他有什麼樣的申訴管道這個東西也非常重要我現在看到這個這個我們目前的現在到第二階段的銀行公會的自律規範他有規定說他第10條裡面有規定說有關消費爭議與一定金額內由會員銀行先行給付給消費者這發生糾紛之後銀行先給付給消費者但是這個一定金額是多少是各銀行自定"},{"start":5336.09,"end":5344.496,"text":"自己訂多少金額還是我們公會有大家有一個規定的說在多少金額之下你消費你這個金融機構必須先這個局長兩萬塊錢兩萬塊錢報告委員目前我知道兩萬塊是我們規定的"},{"start":5350.93,"end":5370.836,"text":"公會規定兩萬塊因為我有看到臺灣企銀跟地銀行在網頁上面他們有公開說兩萬塊錢他們會先支付但其他的銀行都沒有揭露這些訊息我不知道其他銀行在多少我們會要求大家揭露這是公會訂定的再來有關發生爭議的時候的這些處理機制"},{"start":5371.696,"end":5384.388,"text":"主委現在我們的這些銀行我們目前銀行我如果是跟銀行之間發生消費糾紛我是依照這個金融消費者保護法金融消費者保護法受到保護我有一個評議的程序"},{"start":5385.216,"end":5410.289,"text":"但是我如果透過這個TSP平台他所使用的這個法規我們按照他的自律公會的這個第三條他裡面提到如果有這些爭議他是受到消費者保護法的保護他是受到比較低階的消費者保護法的保護但是我如果是跟銀行我是受到金融消費者保護法的保護"},{"start":5411.793,"end":5424.57,"text":"這部分我們是不是應該要請這個銀行自律公會他們的這個自律規範裡面把它提升到消費金融消費者保護的層級啊?好,我原定槌尋的部分我們也一併去檢討"},{"start":5426.139,"end":5429.842,"text":"這部分我認為是應該最後一點時間我們兩個禮拜之前我們金管會曾經發布過呼籲民眾勿輕信代辦業者有關資金或債務協商等需求貸款勿輕信代辦業者"},{"start":5447.554,"end":5465.628,"text":"我們在11月29號有發這樣子的新聞稿對不對?有,謝謝我們事實上過去10年我們發了十幾次的這樣子的新聞稿啦但是我覺得這個代辦業者我們還是看到在電視上看到有一些代辦業者的廣告啊電視廣告都有啊那到底呢?"},{"start":5466.533,"end":5485.927,"text":"不是所有代辦業者都是非法可能他有些是合法的例如說銀行所委託的銀行自己委託的來辦理這個房貸車貸委外辦理行銷業務受委託的機構這個可能就是合法的代辦業者因為代辦業者在法律上在所有的我們規則裡面我沒有看到代辦業者的定義啊對不對"},{"start":5487.998,"end":5510.864,"text":"主委我們下一次做宣導的時候把它定義清楚是什麼樣的情況之下的代辦業者民眾要小心那你們那天所發的新聞稿你們最後在新聞稿的最後最下面有提供一個說如果有民眾的需求可以這個利用中華民國銀行商業同業公會全合聯合會網站貸款免費資訊專區點進去這個專區"},{"start":5514.535,"end":5519.623,"text":"你們新聞稿這樣講結果我點進去這個專區裡面我看它裡面有關這個業者行銷的這個檔案再點進去我再點進去看裡面的資料是102年了是11年前的資料"},{"start":5531.636,"end":5553.792,"text":"報告委員這個不應該我們回去立刻去調整這個部分我時間到了但是我要跟主委講說這些我們有一些事情我們像這種我們發布新聞提醒消費者小心但是我們卻沒有提供真正讓消費者能夠清楚如何收到保護的這些資訊這樣很不應該是委員這個的確不應該這樣子我們會立刻改進謝謝委員指導謝謝主委請回座"},{"start":5561.076,"end":5564.638,"text":"李貴明委員主席主席我們麻煩請主委請黃主委上台備選主委好你記得上禮拜我在質詢你的時候你告訴我的答案關於這個敵意併購的適格者的這個答案呢跟實情不符這個你知道嗎"},{"start":5591.336,"end":5594.499,"text":"主委,當天你在這個回答之後我光是走到這個後面還沒出大門的時候所有的媒體朋友就跟我講"},{"start":5615.236,"end":5615.817,"text":"二、審查本院民進黨團擬具"},{"start":5632.898,"end":5653.112,"text":"大怒這個不應該講這個古文的這個出處的但是重點是在於知道錯了可以去改它我在這裡還是加冕但是我還是要鼓勵拜託那個主委啊這個我們的憲法規定了人民有知的權利讓人民知道事實的真相可以嗎"},{"start":5654.279,"end":5654.439,"text":"財政委員會主席"},{"start":5670.168,"end":5670.989,"text":"正確市場就是資訊介入民眾就是審慎選股注意風險"},{"start":5697.738,"end":5718.795,"text":"對,但是我們看到十一月的營收它是公佈了十一月的營收我們看起來營收並沒有大幅度的起色可是我們股價它是不跌然後反而竄升了所以民間才在想說到底這個年底的作帳是真的有這個作帳的行情還是單純的做夢這個是炒出來的"},{"start":5722.197,"end":5749.503,"text":"您沒有觀察到這個現象還是說有這個現象民間有這個顧慮但是你置之不理股價有些反映是國際跟國內的一些經濟金融情況的變化尤其我們是以半導體電子產業為主所以跟美國的這個費城半導體或NASDAQ的連結是有一定的程度是因為國外國際的股市有一些產業不是所有所以也要提醒民眾因為"},{"start":5750.883,"end":5756.385,"text":"顯然11月的營收出來的各公司出來的情況都不太妙我第二個問題要請教的同樣我今天問的問題其實都牽涉到民眾資的權利純網銀的虧損是持續擴大"},{"start":5765.848,"end":5790.806,"text":"今年六月份的部分我們看到虧損的數從2022年底再比較到今年的第三季的數字它是持續的擴大這個在五年之內它是可以損一兩平嗎現在目前的現狀是怎麼樣還是這些純網銀的部分它會再繼續投入還是我們的今晚會到底做了什麼樣的一個措施"},{"start":5791.997,"end":5818.725,"text":"今年都有至少有兩家以上辦理增資那我們不斷的跟他溝通他需要哪些業務的開放這是我們在做的對那你有沒有全部公開然後讓全民知道因為我們在搜查這個資料的時候好累啊今天我們的報告就是已經公開了五年內損益兩坪是可以達成的是不是很務實的可以達成我沒有這樣子預估我至少在過去才會有說有一家有可能會在五年之後會有損益兩坪"},{"start":5820.248,"end":5843.156,"text":"因為它開業時間不一樣所以其他的部分它是有你希望但是它沒有辦法達成就是了這是要大家努力的不是只有金融隊那你這個已經虧損這麼多的這個努力的這個金額就是說你欠錢欠一定的比例的錢然後你能不能達成它有一個就是說比較務實的一個評估的方式然後你的鼓勵措施是什麼這個可不可以公布啊"},{"start":5843.416,"end":5844.937,"text":"主委,這個投資詐騙的東西我可不是只告訴你一年兩年而已嗎?對不對?"},{"start":5863.07,"end":5867.412,"text":"我這個以前很早的時候呢就已經提醒可是我們看到我們今天啊這個投資詐騙創新高啊然後解決的部分呢原來啊其實速發部講說是他們有建立跟因為這個唐部長呢跟這個"},{"start":5878.297,"end":5878.518,"text":"二、財政委員會財政委員會主席"},{"start":5896.94,"end":5902.505,"text":"主委,您不會否認說現在民眾用的最多的是Line嗎?對不對?是不是?還是您否認?這個用了多少,我想Line是其中之一吧?多不多?但是多少我沒有這個數據我沒有叫你問數據,我說多不多嘛"},{"start":5923.41,"end":5946.904,"text":"多是一個相對的概念,我不知道……你連多不多你都不肯承認它多不多,那我就回到前面。多很多,多很多,每個品牌都很多。謝謝,謝謝,都很多。好,那我們解決了Google,解決了Meta,Line的地方不用解決嗎?報告委員,Line不是屬於金管會這邊在上次規劃的範圍之內的。好,所以簡單來講,Google是你主管的?"},{"start":5948.513,"end":5949.654,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5974.215,"end":5992.625,"text":"所以簡單來講Meta跟Google的解決跟金管會無關是因為跨部會的關係解決所以現在LINE不解決就是跨部會也有問題所以它沒辦法解決因為這三個都不是金管會主管所以沒有辦法解決邏輯是這樣子嗎報告委員這個我們會再繼續努力"},{"start":5999.151,"end":6027.89,"text":"我剛問你的問題你哪一件事情不持續努力了我們現在要解決問題我們現在要行政單位不是要行政單位一天到晚給我制定這個規定規則ABC然後要老百姓去扶今天你在講說很多的問題前面講說我們要仲介的部分叫民眾不要受騙什麼東西你的職責不再叫民眾不要受騙了是不是你既然是在管你的組長的職務你就要負責好我們再看一下"},{"start":6029.292,"end":6034.681,"text":"主委,你說洗錢房子是你管吧?對不對?金融機構的洗錢房子"},{"start":6037.571,"end":6039.173,"text":"主委,高資產客戶的財富管理會不會變成一個洗錢的管道?"},{"start":6059.82,"end":6080.968,"text":"這個推論我覺得有問題,任何的議員都要說到...我告訴你,我覺得沒問題耶,你知道為什麼我覺得沒問題?過往啊,主委我覺得你應該比我熟啊過往是不是曾經就有過外營然後幫我們某一個政治人物的這個錢呢大筆大筆的洗,媒體上面也有講啊,那個訊息你不知道"},{"start":6081.624,"end":6099.661,"text":"三、合的金融機構業務都有...我剛前面提到我沒有指人道姓的原因是我不希望把這個模糊焦點對不對但那個訊息就是過往外營呢讓這個洗錢的部分呢幫政治人物洗錢這件事情你知道嗎"},{"start":6100.402,"end":6120.84,"text":"我應該有聽說過。好,很好,沒關係,因為我們不講誰嘛。但是呢,現在你去對於這個高資產客戶的財富管理,你怎麼避免類似的情形發生?還是現在就有政治人物需要捲環潛逃,透過洗錢的這個方式來做?有沒有這樣的事情?申請的時候就會去做審查。"},{"start":6121.972,"end":6141.605,"text":"申請開辦業務的時候就會做審查你是審查誰?審查申請要做高資產客戶財管業務的金融機構對,然後怎麼樣子你去審查他之後他就不會有洗錢的問題?你這個邏輯是怎麼出來的?計畫中會列出他在洗錢防治的規劃跟執行"},{"start":6143.544,"end":6154.942,"text":"對,那怎麼樣呢?你過往沒做嗎?我剛前面講的那個案子你沒做嗎?那你都有做,為什麼前面的案子發生了?你現在做的跟前面那個案子發生的內容是什麼差異性咧?"},{"start":6155.782,"end":6184.437,"text":"那是後面執行或是違法的問題很好對不對主委你願意坦誠講我們才能解決問題執法的問題現在你這個高資產客戶的財務管理的部分你怎麼樣透過你的執法的部分確定他不會成為政治人物洗錢的管道我們金融機構也都有跟法務部的洗錢犯罪防治中心如果有疑似的交易那你以前為什麼會發生呢你以前沒有跟法務部有聯絡"},{"start":6185.7,"end":6208.146,"text":"報告委員那個個案我不太清楚我只知道有這樣一個印象對,但是你現在你就要面對它嘛以前發生的就是給你一個教訓嘛對不對你已經上了一課你就要解決嘛這種用迴避的方式我們會盡力我們會努力謝謝委員指導這個真的不必要啦下一個我要請教你就是說主委同樣的我們講虛擬資產監理的部分"},{"start":6210.467,"end":6219.855,"text":"你現在是不做嘛但是我提醒你就說有這個Z世代的這個也就是說我們講說11歲到這個26歲的這個Z世代的部分他們對於虛擬資產的部分呢他的投資佔比是相當大的"},{"start":6226.44,"end":6241.174,"text":"那這個東西你是打算怎麼樣來保護我們這些年輕人還是說你的邏輯就是說我要提醒他他自己做的事情自己負責就這樣子還是說你現在是用什麼樣的態度因為71%的民眾認為他應該要強化你的這個監理你現在是認為不需要還是怎麼樣監管會態度是什麼"},{"start":6250.68,"end":6273.047,"text":"我們是投資型虛擬資產的主管機關九月份發布指導原則年底VASP工會會成立會遞資歷規範主委,真的,你要這樣子念書這樣背的話我們就沒什麼太大意思了你知道X世代、Y世代、Z世代還是你不知道我知道你知道,好那Z世代是幾歲啊1995年以後出生的"},{"start":6274.195,"end":6277.076,"text":"上架、資產區隔、冷熱錢包這些都是我們在規劃中九大原則中有規劃的。那Offshore的你為什麼讓他在臺灣能夠買賣呢?"},{"start":6302.372,"end":6324.966,"text":"任何非法的東西都不是我們能完全禁止的但是我們會廣為宣傳所以你的態度就是非法的部分你就沒責那你要老百姓自己去決定它是合法決定是非法你只做大內宣說你們要自己注意我在最後一個問題請教我就下台那個防疫險的部分在保你有出面協調嗎"},{"start":6326.725,"end":6350.922,"text":"現階段我們不會介入那是商業上的契約那這個債保公司不賠的話對我們的業者有多大的衝擊會不會賠我不確定我不能回答假設性的問題假設性問題你不回答然後真正發生的問題你遺憾那這我們怎麼解決問題我不會說真正發生遺憾真正發生需要相關法律形式程序需要政府機關說明我們會說明"},{"start":6352.557,"end":6358.499,"text":"報告委員,商業企業我們處理的時間是很重要的所以民間的問題你不管就好我再請教你知道寵物保險現在剩兩家毛小孩怎麼辦"},{"start":6372.557,"end":6393.004,"text":"因為它的損失率非常的高所以業者做不下去所以通常只有兩家政府的態度就是說即便就是說你知道問題的發生然後這些民間要處理的事情民間自己處理那我們就乾脆無政府嘛如果是這樣子的一個態度的話那我會認為乾脆就無政府這些錢不下來以上謝謝謝謝李委員"},{"start":6398.592,"end":6400.333,"text":"謝謝主席、謝謝主委、謝謝大家的祝賀謝謝接下來我們請郭國文、郭委員上台質詢"},{"start":6418.525,"end":6442.666,"text":"主席沒有準備蛋糕有選獅子中午可以補送謝謝主席有請黃主委請黃主委上台備選是委員長主委好主委我想那個開放銀行這個部分第一階段第二階段都已經上路了現在好像進入那個深水區就是交易面的這個資訊的部分"},{"start":6444.175,"end":6461.863,"text":"把這一個開放銀行的政策落實具有相當大的挑戰性的階段我個人認為就是在第三個部分我看到第一個部分有27家銀行跟6家第三方的TSB合作第二階段有17家跟2家的TSB合作"},{"start":6462.823,"end":6476.899,"text":"主委,到第三階段的時候,那個TSB的加速會不會越來越少?第三階段會不會沒有?我們預期因為他要求的標準更高,包括剛才沈昭惠也提到,資安上面要特別注意,我想應該不會像以前那麼多。"},{"start":6478.621,"end":6501.363,"text":"現在已經6家2家那以後會不會更少標準越來越高門檻會越來越高門檻會越來越高那因為這一個開放銀行這樣子處理下去我覺得最關鍵的會讓外界最擔憂的部分還是在於這個整個資安風險的一個應對第二個的部分那個主管機關"},{"start":6502.304,"end":6528.707,"text":"到底有沒有可能頒布一些指引規範第三個部分是TSB的分級的制度我覺得這三個部分這樣子那我個人在看這個金融科技的部分往往過去我們的操作模式都把它當成一個體制化的、體制外的沙盒的模式處理當我們付出一些社會成本之後我們再進行修正這是第一個我觀察到的現象"},{"start":6529.608,"end":6533.859,"text":"第二我觀察到的現象就是主委會把這些金融科技當成"},{"start":6535.56,"end":6560.46,"text":"免於來刺激這個傳統的銀行要求他們做金融科技的一些精進跟改善結果這些創新業者其實老實講他的命運就是免於而已事實上他也沒有辦法形成真正的創新業者結果就成為你提升改變這些傳統銀行業者的一個體質我覺得主委是不是有這種可能性先回答前面再來說後面"},{"start":6564.79,"end":6577.076,"text":"其實從金融總會發布的一個金融科技創新報告來講過去這幾年金融業者跟科技業者合作的比率趨勢是大的是的確是這樣一個趨勢"},{"start":6579.375,"end":6602.615,"text":"整體而言是有注意的啦我同意啦只是多數的人在他們人生的那個選擇當中他們可能離開了原來的傳統的這個金融機構投入了所謂的創新金融創新結果後來發現在整個制度沒有完整的時候他們半路就死在沙灘上了啦但是改變了整個體質變成自己成為一個成就傳統業者的一個養分"},{"start":6604.617,"end":6621.017,"text":"這是我個人的觀察這不是重點啦重點我要請你回答是剛剛那個部分啦簡單的講TSB的部分齁你現在的方式整體而言的資安風險的這個應對齁怎麼處理因為他將來掌握了很多訊息啊所有訊息當中在整個第三方的時候來做一個"},{"start":6623.319,"end":6629.426,"text":"統籌來分享這裡頭的治安問題怎麼處理我在想說這個第三方真的有資歷真的有辦法去應對這個風險的管控嗎資訊風險的管控嗎更何況銀行端都還要設立這個所謂的這個這個治安長"},{"start":6639.556,"end":6665.968,"text":"這個第三方有辦法這樣做嗎?其實您垂詢的邏輯跟剛剛沈釗偉垂詢邏輯是相同的就是覺得這兩者之間這三方的關係必須要拉平才能讓民眾有信心那我也特別要跟您報告我個人的想法Open Banking其實是來自於一些歐美國家那些國家的銀行競爭的強度不像台灣那麼強所以它Open Banking有很大的市場在那台灣的本身銀行競爭就已經相對的激烈了"},{"start":6667.309,"end":6688.109,"text":"民眾對於Open Banking第三階段的發展是不是跟其他國家一樣這個我們要再觀察可是制度上我們還是會繼續規劃下去那幾位委員對我們的垂尋之道我們會立刻來去調整參與其中的這些TSB業者當中也有一些傳統的金融機構參與"},{"start":6692.042,"end":6693.543,"text":"中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條文修正草"},{"start":6721.192,"end":6747.834,"text":"目前應該不會因為我想第三方這個開放銀行第三方目前制度還沒有規劃完所以剛剛有委員垂行什麼時候會開始我想我們規劃完之後那如果包括剛剛委員您垂詢的一些事情我們要再檢討的時候我們會再看看整個規範是不是符合委員的期待所以說一部分我們在進行第三階段的一個交易面的諮詢的一個審議的階段那另外一部分的話我們也在考慮說要如何把它建立一個規範"},{"start":6748.942,"end":6767.188,"text":"所以我剛剛提的所謂的治安的部分、頒發指引規範的部分還有分歧的部分都可能在討論當中嗎?有,我想今天經過這樣一個專案報告我們得到委員的很多高見跟指導我們會回去立刻再討論一下現在業者我們報來的東西是不是合乎委員的期待"},{"start":6767.813,"end":6782.481,"text":"那約莫裡面大概會多久的時間會把這一個那個討論做一個初步的成果我們原來在報告中規劃是跟委員報告是年底了那我們看盡量是不是照委員的期待年底前但是也符合委員對於內容上的要求"},{"start":6783.784,"end":6807.593,"text":"主委這個部分變靈納管的業務好像又越來越多了所以說我再追問你一個問題我在總質詢的時候那時候我就問陳建仁那個陳院長但是你個人是不好意思我是說有沒有可能把這個另外把貴單位的整個組織變制多增加一個金融科技區後來那個院長有沒有跟你們進行討論"},{"start":6809.893,"end":6833.042,"text":"行政院這邊有交代我們去做研究我想我們也在研究中研究中那你多久的時候要呈報行政院?初步的意見是在現況中我們還能夠現在接受的新的業務還能夠在行政院同意增援的額度之內去做調試本市已經幫你講話了你還這麼客氣"},{"start":6836.324,"end":6852.817,"text":"未以籌謀可能就要看如果大的調整包括增加局處的話可能要做更完整的規劃我們正在做細部的這個還要牽涉到這細部的規劃約莫多久啊其實大家其實都擔心那個金管會的負擔過重啊不是"},{"start":6853.357,"end":6882.429,"text":"除了擔心你們這個管理嚴格之外這除了負擔之外還需要看看這樣業務的新增設置一些固定的局處對未來的發展的對業者金融業的發展而且對社會現象產生出來我們都能夠去解決這些問題包括科技這些東西當然對金管會的期待又很高所以你的業務一定會越來越重我是建議你這個部分的這一個內部的這個規劃要提早進行向上呈報"},{"start":6885.23,"end":6898.998,"text":"另外一個部分有關於純網銀的部分我看起來有一家不符合規定,不符合摩擦產物保險不符合規定另外一個中信網路產業保險產保基本上他們已經宣布退場這個都是在金管會2022年的時候開放純保裡頭為二兩家"},{"start":6912.225,"end":6938.021,"text":"之所以為二兩家是你們當初的這個管理辦法當中的29條之一關於這個受險的部分保障型的商品限制非常的少那另外一部分呢這個產險的部分與創新型的定義又不清楚所以說你們又對外宣布說明年的時候一月份的時候要開放申請純網保明年一月開放會不會純網保變純網保"},{"start":6941.175,"end":6960.359,"text":"就是就game over了就不會了都沒有業者我們不太確定因為重點是市場上要提供類似這種跟異業合作的一些商品那事實上我們在今年10月已經大幅放寬保險業、電子商務跟異業合作的一些注意事項也就是突破29條之一了嗎"},{"start":6962.581,"end":6962.821,"text":"三條文修正草"},{"start":6971.542,"end":6995.664,"text":"所以說純網保的可能性還會持續進行嗎?還會,對那另外一個部分有關於人頭戶限制的部分您提到說這個明年會上路啦但上路的部分會進行所謂的這個管制行為如果假設它是被規範宣布為人頭帳戶的話那麼它一天只能提領一萬元"},{"start":6997.146,"end":7012.699,"text":"現在問題來了有些人頭賬戶他本來是受害者他一不小心會成了人頭賬戶這種人會不會變成惡毒受害者這個部分謝謝委員垂行我記得有一些例外就是如果他以薪資為主的話他是有一個可以讓他用"},{"start":7015.305,"end":7043.713,"text":"高委員因為這個是所謂告戒戶那告戒戶是警察機關在開的啦所以告戒戶認定權就是警察你們就看警察提供了誰你們就做你們就負責執行你們就負責執行那有沒有連坐處罰他明明是一個帳戶被用了那他其他帳戶也會不會這樣處理因為按照這個告戒戶的辦法的話他是以人名就是那個ID控管所以只要是那個ID的話他在銀行的所有的帳戶都會收到這些"},{"start":7044.853,"end":7065.845,"text":"那將來他還有機會透過TSB的方式來進行交易嗎?這個如果以這樣子來看的話因為他還是帳戶的控管所以銀行在系統上面會把那個帳戶做控管所有的可能性都沒有了好那謝謝局長那最後問一下那個"},{"start":7066.986,"end":7088.842,"text":"其實也是局長的業務就是灰名單的部分灰名單的部分其實就是把這個加碼研議出所謂的殭屍賬戶的一個管控我認為這個是一個不錯的做法這是防患於未然但是目前問題點是這個灰名單的參加業者只有9家銀行加入4家公股、4家民營加一個郵局主委、局長這會不會太少"},{"start":7090.243,"end":7112.203,"text":"報告委員,上次在委員指導這下午,對,我們已經要求就是那個會名單的部分的話會在第一季全部都要上路那剛剛您說的那個是今年,明年一月那到了第一季是全部都要上路全部都要上路,明年一月全部上路,好,謝謝你喔,好,謝謝主委"},{"start":7115.54,"end":7134.082,"text":"好,我們接下來請費鴻泰委員上台質詢那在費鴻泰委員質詢結束之後我們休息五分鐘請費鴻泰委員上台質詢好,謝謝主席各位女士先生大家早安主席幫我請一下黃主委請黃主委上台備選"},{"start":7140.953,"end":7157.523,"text":"主席安排的今天題目我想在這個會期快結束的時候來檢討一下蠻好的請問我們現在的純網銀目前都是很認真的在努力要增資對不對"},{"start":7159.266,"end":7159.807,"text":"主席"},{"start":7176.516,"end":7197.444,"text":"其實大體上來講就是把實體銀行的業務盡量在網路上能做但是純網銀當初他自己自稱他的利基是他有一個生態系可以做一些生態系的一個Synergy的發揮那換句話說一般的銀行如果說要去做純網的業務也是可以的是不是這個意思業務相同只是一個虛擬一個是實體當然實體銀行也有虛擬業務但是實體銀行當然有虛擬業務因為現在是網路的世界對不對"},{"start":7209.314,"end":7217.048,"text":"純網保至少今年好像沒有來要申涉的"},{"start":7217.902,"end":7243.257,"text":"因為去年我們說要再觀察因為去年因為防疫險的關係所以市場受到影響我們準備明年一月底會跟大家報告其實你們要推動純網銀、純網保就是平常講就是用虛擬的網路世界服務我們的客戶可是這個想法基本上都是對的而且日後的發展形象也都是如此"},{"start":7244.195,"end":7246.299,"text":"三家純網銀或日後可能會申請的純網保"},{"start":7254.366,"end":7275.738,"text":"因為現在在推動上有一些困難我們不能講說他不好因為這個都要時間自古來講說十年有成二十年有成你不可能要求他短短的兩三年就馬上就很厲害但是在這個過渡的時期我想請教一下主委我們可不可以也讓實體的銀行"},{"start":7278.393,"end":7284.504,"text":"實體的保險公司他們也去做一些網路上的這個銷售跟服務呢"},{"start":7285.974,"end":7310.815,"text":"這也是報告委員您垂詢的也是我們正在努力尤其是保險網路現在這兩年疫情之後我們開放疫情之後的疫情這疫情期間的措施疫情之後全部維持還有去今年10月我們開放保險業跟異業的合作就是您朝您的方向去做的其實我長期在這裡每次常常問你們我是希望網路服務的"},{"start":7311.876,"end":7334.546,"text":"無遠弗屋界網路服務的很好不要出錯但是因為現在確實是網路的銀行跟網保還在演變對話之中所以我是覺得這個時候實體的銀行如果不讓他們去做給他們一些限制我覺得有點可惜"},{"start":7336.307,"end":7358.287,"text":"我完全同意你的意見我可以說明請知道像我今年特別有一個金融科技法規調適平台其實來的意見很多也都是針對銀行他們也就是說到底你們在網路上做這種銀行的業務還有哪些法規的障礙我們要幫大家解決我是覺得我們"},{"start":7360.202,"end":7361.527,"text":"開放銀行,不自我設限"},{"start":7366.636,"end":7394.719,"text":"不管實體銀行、網路銀行不管實體的保險公司跟純網保目的都是要服務客戶讓國家在這方面能夠進步尤其臺灣我們資源是有限的我們空間是有限的當然在各種的科技上我們要在世界上要走到前面我們才會有競爭力的所以我是覺得思考一下"},{"start":7396.781,"end":7423.156,"text":"有麻煩可不可以儘快給我一個我針對我今天的問題給我一個書面的回答我們主要的目的沒有說對誰好對誰不好目的就是對人民好我上個禮拜也有請教你關於我們全球臺灣在全球前百大銀行我們沒有"},{"start":7424.898,"end":7425.298,"text":"財政委員會主席"},{"start":7448.194,"end":7459.001,"text":"第二條文修正草三、四條文修正草三、四條文修正草三、四條文修正草三、四條文修正草三、四條文修正草三、四條文修正草三、四條文修正草三、四條文修正草三、四條文"},{"start":7470.336,"end":7470.456,"text":"主席"},{"start":7484.298,"end":7500.865,"text":"其實大家對金管會的指導通常說好像我們管的比較多心力比較少那其實我想我們真的也有做一些心力的工作不過如果外界有這種印象我們會加強努力多做一些心力的工作你們金管會都是專業人士了"},{"start":7501.977,"end":7527.79,"text":"我們的銀行在服務國際相對於香港、新加坡我們就針對這兩種國家好了國家地區是我們平常講他們是比較管那個他們可以服務的對象是比較寬的至少在幣值上在貨幣上我們好像處理其他的貨幣的服務相對於對香港、對新加坡我們是需要來努力的"},{"start":7529.03,"end":7547.461,"text":"二、全球性銀行有全球網路,所以大的企業需要全球服務的話,我們的銀行是沒有佔到便宜。還有一樣,我們的觀念加上我們的人才,你要服務國際的話,你的英語能力要強。"},{"start":7551.844,"end":7560.852,"text":"像香港很多人都從小受英文教育新加坡基本上他的溝通的語言就是英文"},{"start":7562.193,"end":7579.68,"text":"這方面曾經在蔡英文總統上來以後她要開放有一些外籍人士可以來臺灣在金融就業其實這個觀念是對的我也很支持當時我也沒有反對請問我們這個政策落實的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":7584.733,"end":7600.825,"text":"國發會有一個金卡的一個制度這其中有很多也是金融業好久沒有聽到金卡的業績報告我覺得在金融業這方面真的需要加強我剛才講我們的銀行保險"},{"start":7605.629,"end":7632.29,"text":"他佔GDP現在是6 6.5上下了在那邊搖擺不是搖擺在那邊在那邊Pending如果我們可以增加到10我們一個GDP是多少錢我們去年我們22兆一個GDP就是2點就增加很多我們如果增加5個GDP就是增加1兆多對不對"},{"start":7634.249,"end":7661.3,"text":"可以創造多少的就業可以讓整個國民的GDP提升多少其實你們金管會這一點我是覺得蠻重要的不要把自己小看我上個禮拜跟今天我同樣針對這個問題對不對我們只要在GDP上的產值增加1%你就知道對台灣的貢獻有多大"},{"start":7662.133,"end":7687.502,"text":"所以我我我平常講我對我們金管會啊的同仁的專業我都非常的肯定剩下就是你們要去遊說我們的政府這在政策方面如何要把它想的宏觀一點想的前衛一點在人口在人才的落實方面像金卡當時蔡總統剛上來的時候金卡我是覺得是對的但是"},{"start":7688.24,"end":7710.155,"text":"二、國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及"},{"start":7714.352,"end":7740.596,"text":"我希望您以後還可以繼續再做個四年再做個八年但是在你還有半年的任期裡面思考一下我們金融業的今日跟未來可以嗎是,謝謝委員的期許我會在這個剩下的任期中去思考而且盡量能夠有一些政策能夠落實還有虛擬貨幣的事今天很多委員都提到了"},{"start":7741.469,"end":7753.739,"text":"網路的世界無遠弗屆你我的年齡不是在網路發達的時候的成長可是現在的年輕人都是在網路時代這樣子來成長的"},{"start":7754.844,"end":7755.625,"text":"二、國際財政委員會主席李宗盛議員"},{"start":7772.642,"end":7775.645,"text":"二、審查本院民進黨總預算案審查程序第三條文修正草"},{"start":7794.281,"end":7805.338,"text":"就這監理這個平常講這監理啊監理的適度放寬一點點也許那個產業他就有明天他有未來對人民是方便的是還不是"},{"start":7806.175,"end":7820.805,"text":"委員您的這番指導跟期許我們會引為我們將來努力的方向現在開始努力的方向我今天跟你們提了那個主席再給我30秒今天提了純網銀還有純網保這個跟實體要去思考一下"},{"start":7828.351,"end":7829.132,"text":"二、財政部委員會主席二、財政部委員會主席"},{"start":7847.224,"end":7861.33,"text":"好謝謝那剛剛我們本來有宣告的話那因為我們中委員這邊有提出要求所以我們等中委員質詢結束之後我們再休息接下來請莊嘉斌中委員上來質詢"},{"start":7871.797,"end":7882.247,"text":"謝謝趙偉主席、戰狼委員、先進會長的工作夥伴媒體女士先生那麼有請我們黃主委請黃主委上台備選謝謝委員長主委長剛剛有委員問到這個詐騙的問題我先問幾個"},{"start":7889.113,"end":7899.467,"text":"治安有沒有改善要看哪三個第一個是犯罪率第二個是報案率第三個是破案率治安有沒有改善你就要先看哪一個率"},{"start":7901.773,"end":7930.016,"text":"這個我不是犯罪專家,我不太...這個一嘗試嘛民眾就會自然有沒有改善我們要看哪些數字犯罪率有沒有上升對不對可是犯罪率是來自什麼民眾要有報案嘛所以警方就有所謂叫報案率嘛但是呢有沒有破案如果破案了那麼歹徒就不敢妄為所以犯案率就會下降,是不是這樣子是好,所以有人說一個笑話有人是在解決問題啊有人在解決提出問題的人"},{"start":7931.397,"end":7958.625,"text":"所以過去呢我曾經在地方擔任副首長每個月都主持治安會報我都會只要求不能只看什麼報案率因為如果你看報案率他們解決報案的人啊吃案嘛對不對結果呢破案率如果沒有提高民眾還是覺得治安不好嘛是不是這樣子所以我們要改善治安不只要看報案率報案率提高不見得是壞事要看破案率有沒有提高如果我們一味的要求"},{"start":7959.667,"end":7960.327,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":7980.229,"end":8003.112,"text":"我的觀點覺得我們的銀行防堵上有發揮效益但是民眾可能還是感覺到說好像詐騙很多嘛來我們來看一下金融詐騙我們的境內犯罪率如果我們積極破案就是臨櫃防堵嘛但是境外呢有沒有辦法防堵目前目前我們境內的大概都會透過臨櫃就攔下來了對不對所以目前的詐騙是不是大部分是境外犯罪"},{"start":8004.69,"end":8008.513,"text":"上海銀行14000個客戶各自外洩,有查出來是誰做的嗎?路徑找出來了嗎?"},{"start":8032.526,"end":8046.981,"text":"報告委員他們其實內部做了很詳盡的查核啦那目前他們還透過第三方所以其實透過第三方好來主委是這樣齁我上週才對宮古航空要求啊"},{"start":8048.443,"end":8065.722,"text":"要去加強對這些資安敏感職務人員的訓練和考核根據金融庫公司及銀行業內部控制及集合制度的實施辦法第38條之一有沒有有只要是銀行業不管你是不是公股、行庫你都要設置專職人員而且要奏訊是不是有沒有"},{"start":8068.304,"end":8094.711,"text":"請你比照我對財政部要求公務航空的做法你可不可以要求國營本國銀行統整出敏感職務哪些是跟治安敏感職務而且加強跟我們治安審查跟教育可不可以這個我們可以朝這個方向去努力所以你承諾要做這個事情因為公務航空已經答應了但是敏感職位可能是依不同銀行而有差別但是你們要去統整啊提報啊來審查好不好可以嗎"},{"start":8096.24,"end":8097.94,"text":"一指戶App App倒雙,誰該負責?"},{"start":8122.236,"end":8126.46,"text":"金管會還是衛福部還是我們的抒發部"},{"start":8128.635,"end":8153.587,"text":"這個後來了解各自部份應該屬於衛福部這邊在是在處理那金管會有沒有責任有沒有採取行動我們財經公司有跟跟大光公司要求要求他去確認他委外當初是因為委外的關係而產生各自的外洩所以要聯合各部會不是推給別人就是你可以做的就做對不對有都在同時在做的那伊子會有沒有釐清各自外洩的來源跟途徑呢應該有好"},{"start":8156.277,"end":8158.6,"text":"其實在我們國家對於關鍵基礎設施的保護從設施部分有這個法律"},{"start":8166.687,"end":8187.385,"text":"那如果這個設施要保護包括什麼?知通系統對不對?那用這個案子來往下看其實行政院除了對於硬體之外他對於人員的審查也很重要他有規定行政院要求所有政府採購對於大陸的廠牌的知通安全系統之外機關要去要求執行的團隊不可以有中國籍的人士是不是這樣?"},{"start":8188.286,"end":8196.856,"text":"有沒有看到行政院這個函這是要求公務採購的部分嗎政府採購的部分嗎那你可不可以要求本國銀行也筆照辦理"},{"start":8198.9,"end":8202.282,"text":"主委,可不可以要求考慮?這個局長有沒有什麼想法?"},{"start":8223.049,"end":8238.701,"text":"報告委員確實是那個公營的部分確實是比較辦理那至於其他本國銀行的部分本國銀行的部分的話金融網絡是聯通的對我們會再研議因為之前是要我們要往這個方向去要求"},{"start":8239.722,"end":8244.904,"text":"其他非公股銀行使用大陸廠牌資訊產品的形狀,其他非公股銀行使用大陸廠牌資訊產品的形狀,"},{"start":8263.053,"end":8272.749,"text":"第三方負責損害賠償責任根據我們銀行公會會員銀行以及第三方服務提供者的合作自律規範第六條第九項第三方有負責損害賠償"},{"start":8275.475,"end":8297.545,"text":"是不是這樣?同不同意?所以第三方也跟銀行一樣,我們往下看希望你們看一看中國的軟硬體在韓國造成了這些民間各自外洩華為也在台灣有類似的情況,所以往下看所以希望未來對這些TSP的業者也比照我們的"},{"start":8298.425,"end":8324.353,"text":"政府採購一項不只政府要落實也請TSP業者參考我們工程會第8條第24款可以嗎?這個就我剛剛跟您報告比方說非公股我們先盤點這些TSP業者有沒有使用好也一樣第一步先掏出去好不好好謝謝那我們往下看謝謝那另外呢我要再關心綠色行動3.0這個3.0的報告當中你們核心策略要接入碳排的資訊投融資去推動整體產業的減碳是不是這樣子?"},{"start":8327.034,"end":8351.568,"text":"銀行官有在上座嗎?這是其中之一好,那我們來看一下銀行在建商端的土建籠還有消費端購買綠建築的房屋貸款都有給予比較優惠的一個條件嗎?有沒有?這個在銀行公會授信審查准第20條好像有類似對這種規定那實質看法的成效可不可以告訴我本國銀行在民建綠建築的融資推廣成效如何?核電多少件?"},{"start":8352.339,"end":8370.374,"text":"我們調查之後跟您報告好你們還沒有做調查來我告訴你這是我從內政部得到的資料在2022跟2023比較我們所有的公建、商辦、住宅、合發建造數量這麼多那麼綠住宅有這些大概比例民間的綠建築比例偏低"},{"start":8371.55,"end":8387.285,"text":"即是說我們國家在推但是民間的綠建築通過的2%到3.2%好,如果我們把公建跟商販拿掉只看純住宅往下看純住宅稍微好一點但是住宅的綠建築比例也是不高"},{"start":8388.186,"end":8414.455,"text":"所以我們來看一下到底我們金管會提供的這個綠色行動有沒有幫助市場上的住宅消費者或建商願意來興辦綠建築您覺得有沒有實際上的推動的效果我認為是有但是可能不如您的期待沒有還沒調查出來可能有沒有我的符合還不知道我們來看一下其實我去調查的結果非督跟案通常不會選擇綠建築為什麼"},{"start":8416.718,"end":8439.87,"text":"因為我們注意到在內政部公布的資料當中如果你是都更案他就有綠建築的容積率獎勵那因為容積率獎勵之後他的利潤大於綠建築增加的成本所以幾乎我們看到的銀件內政部的資料通通集中在什麼都更案他們才會去做綠建築但是如果非都更案的話沒有"},{"start":8440.731,"end":8465.723,"text":"所以我也去注意到你回去查一查你們本國銀行去推動的綠建築的融資有沒有非督更案回去再來查一查跟我報告所以我認為我查的是沒有啦所以問題在哪裡今天綠建築的推動屬於融資獎勵的還有有效但是如果是屬於融資優惠的你們現在提出的好像沒有讓建商改變他的想法我們往下看"},{"start":8466.423,"end":8481.526,"text":"因為呢我們目前的都更案呢大部分的建商是因為隆基獎勵他選擇了綠建築不是融資的優惠因為我們目前聽說融資優惠呢小於綠建築增加的營建成本所以建商沒有意願所以我可以做這麼一個"},{"start":8482.628,"end":8506.353,"text":"先做這樣的定論目前的綠色建築行動方案的融資優惠其實吸引不了現章去做綠建築那你再回去看看有沒有什麼資料可以反證我的話那我接下來結論就出來了根據我們銀集綠建築的案例內政部研究所它大概銀集的綠建築每平方公尺要增加600到900那樓地盤面積如果是以13000米來講的話營業成本要增加780萬那我舉這個例子"},{"start":8510.976,"end":8531.507,"text":"事實上目前我們建籠動波的方式他土籠放款的金額要達到讓建商覺得我來做綠建築你的土建籠要調降0.8%而反而非都更的建案呢他所減少土建籠的利息支出小於他去做綠建築得到的獎勵簡單講結論來了往下看"},{"start":8535.274,"end":8544.062,"text":"是不是?金管會可不可以你去具體方案來積極地推廣立建築?包含對你們目前的融資投融資的獎勵去調查一下可以嗎?"},{"start":8545.151,"end":8550.874,"text":"請金管會統整出民管職務加強資安審查及教育國營及所屬的合作的欠商和保險公司執行團隊成員只要是非本國籍或同時擁有其他國籍的資通訊產品都應該加強資安及背景審查"},{"start":8568.585,"end":8596.642,"text":"因為有其他國籍不要讓其他國籍我沒有禁止我要你們去加強的去進行瞭解跟審查就是不要歧視我們沒有歧視只要求你去掌握可以嗎我們就是用事實為基礎去瞭解最後金管會要求開放銀行的TSP業者的資通的通訊軟體硬體的服務也應該要要求他的執行團隊是不是是中國籍人士而且不得使用來自中國的資通產品"},{"start":8597.362,"end":8612.591,"text":"這就跟您報告,我們先瞭解他的產品跟他的人的背景好,那請在多久內提出來我們分委員會這樣可能時間長一點,三個月可以嗎好,同意,那就請召委這邊來要求,謝謝謝謝委員,謝謝主委,請召委好,謝謝鍾委員,我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9063.616,"end":9065.077,"text":"謝謝主席,請黃天牧主委請黃主委上台備選"},{"start":9089.716,"end":9118.103,"text":"是委員長主委好現在這個Open Banking開放銀行的第三階段那今天讓大家知道說自律規範即將要年底前核備可是大家質疑就是說第三階段其實最重要的就是客戶的資金交易的服務那這個部分目前的自律規範是靠自律嗎那這個第三方的業者TSP未來是誰來監管這個部分目前有一個確定的方向嗎"},{"start":9119.629,"end":9131.534,"text":"從以往到現在,包括任何的委外,銀行如果可以拿一個TSB業者服務,銀行就是要對這個TSB業者的行為去做負責。我們是督導銀行,銀行要對我們負責。"},{"start":9132.881,"end":9156.757,"text":"所以因為現在詐騙非常的猖獗那尤其是在第三階段的時候涉及到這個金融交易的資料等等這些訊息的時候大家要擔心的就是如果銀行的自律發生了問題或者是TSP有問題就像現在很多的詐騙其實都是一個內部內神通外鬼互相的串聯然後導致各自外泄的狀況所以同時我們也發現"},{"start":9159.099,"end":9176.475,"text":"目前TSP業者所使用的open banking的代登錄的機制就是都用原網銀的驗證也就是說這個TSP的業者他可以取得客戶登錄的第三方驗證的所有資料而這個資料就是登錄銀行最重要的帳號跟密碼"},{"start":9178.397,"end":9192.177,"text":"就在這種情況之下如果只靠自律只靠業者跟銀行之間的規範自己之間的彼此的自律所造成的資安漏洞、客戶資料的外洩等等這個到底要誰來負責?"},{"start":9193.559,"end":9197.104,"text":"財經公司會訂定技術跟資安標準,尤其第三階段牽涉到交易面,資安標準會更高,包括幾位前面的委員對這部分有交代,我們會再去檢討。」"},{"start":9212.034,"end":9221.639,"text":"對,因為其實過去也同樣的包括IMB的事件包括這些事件大家一旦發生問題的時候一定都會回頭來問主管機關是誰誰要負責而這個時候如果我們事先就把這個球都踢給銀行說他們來自律他們自己負責事後我們都說我們沒有相關的監管或是沒有相關的這個配套出來的時候問題一旦發生其實"},{"start":9235.645,"end":9254.08,"text":"政府還是要承擔這個責任所以目前的TSP業者雖然他們是新創但是呢對於未來這些資安金融等級的安控作業他們有沒有辦法做到滴水不漏避免資安的漏洞擱置的外洩這個是對現在所有的客戶使用者來講最在意的事情"},{"start":9254.72,"end":9282.735,"text":"當然隨著金融的科技化能夠有這樣子的一個Open Banking是大家期待的一個方向可是同時如何來避免這些資料外洩同時有很多的代登錄的機制曾經也被這個玉山銀行偵測到說來源的IP是在國外那如果今天這個ISP的業者他的IP是涉及到中國或是間接中資那這樣的狀況可不可以申請Open Banking"},{"start":9283.967,"end":9295.478,"text":"總括來說您關心的事情非常重要包括TSP本身的資安水準銀行本身的資安水準、消費者保護這個都會在我們的規範中一併去考慮跟處理"},{"start":9297.185,"end":9317.245,"text":"所以剛剛我問到的啊如果說這個TSP的業者他跟中資是有關係的而今天我們的客戶臺灣的銀行這些資料有可能包括剛剛所說的帳號密碼他可能藉此而外流到TSP業者那你公告業者的自律是遠遠不夠包括國安包括其他層面的問題才是今天我們也要考量的"},{"start":9317.805,"end":9334.853,"text":"所以現在問的就是說如果這TSP的業者後面有中資有中國的IP等等的這些狀況到底能不能借接能不能適用我們的Open Banking您垂詢的地方當然是我們的顧慮我們一定會在規範中或是審查中去做處理"},{"start":9335.473,"end":9357.717,"text":"所以你沒有回答我們的問題嘛因為包括現在的蝦皮過去大家也質疑說他背後就是種子抖音的問題等等能不能申請借接呢能不能來做Open Banking呢因為依照我們的各資法相關的規定如果民眾每天登錄業者的APP都顯示登錄成功但是呢還會有一個是非台灣地區登錄的警告"},{"start":9358.177,"end":9358.898,"text":"二、中央政府總預算案擬具"},{"start":9388.177,"end":9388.437,"text":"財政委員會財政部長"},{"start":9406.341,"end":9426.532,"text":"前面可能要到明年上半年但是就是說剛剛所質疑的包括說中資或者是有涉及到國家利益、國安的問題然後主管機關如果沒有辦法去監管沒有辦法去了解的時候這東西有沒有辦法各自傳輸到其他的國家那被儲存到哪裡等等這些我們有沒有一個監管的機制未來會不會知道"},{"start":9427.352,"end":9430.294,"text":"有否符合委員這樣的期待?如果沒有符合,我們會去修正。」"},{"start":9444.884,"end":9474.028,"text":"就是說後面的配套剛剛所質疑的這些都必須要有能夠讓金管會隨時能夠掌握說到底這些TSP業者有沒有外流到中國後面有沒有中資或者是說這個資料被下載之後它是不是確實有治安的規範不會再被轉移到其他人的手上反而造成各自外洩的疑慮跟風險這部分一定要有明確的規範跟保證也要有配套這個大家才能夠放心這個金管會是可以做到的嗎"},{"start":9474.668,"end":9491.024,"text":"我們一定會準備好才上路不會為了要上路而上路另外關於純網保過去今晚會一直告訴我們說麻雀飛牢、純網保很快就會有等等我想今天也很多人在關心說了這麼久只有到現在卻是一場空"},{"start":9493.246,"end":9510.847,"text":"最後完全沒有任何一家純網保可以上路那現在金管會又說明年要捲土重來保險局12月又要評估請問在原本這麼嚴格的一個條件狀況之下未來會進一步的放寬嗎那如果沒有放寬又如何能夠保證明年會有純網保呢"},{"start":9512.401,"end":9537.521,"text":"其實原來我不認為那是嚴格那本來就是大家對純網銀的期待覺得希望它有一個有一個可以運行的商業模式我們只是確定純網保也有一個可以運行的商業模式我不覺得那是一定是嚴的那如果是這樣為什麼沒有任何一家公司願意來做或是通過我們金管會來審查那是因為它送來的資料沒辦法證明它是可被執行的模式"},{"start":9538.663,"end":9553.828,"text":"也就是說你認為他是會虧損是不是?沒有獲利的空間嗎?什麼叫做無法證明他是可負責?他的創新跟異業合作的創新模式沒有辦法得到審查委員認同這樣一個模式是可以將來可以營運可以獲利的"},{"start":9555.017,"end":9573.269,"text":"所以你就是認為他不會獲利嗎那我們的純網銀也是虧損連連啊虧損連連到現在你當初認為他會獲利嗎到現在還不是在虧損那你還不是讓他過純網保對於民眾來講有更大的需求現在很多的民眾網路世代他們可能透過網路去保"},{"start":9574.59,"end":9585.44,"text":"純網保需求上有必要性去做比較﹑去做更多的配套為什麼這個部分反而目前沒有看到任何一家願意來做"},{"start":9587.794,"end":9600.659,"text":"在國際上我們有比較出來數位化或保險科技在其他國家其實都已經是非常的普遍但是在台灣目前是一家都沒有那這種狀況其實是今晚會的條件過於嚴苛還是說台灣的市場的問題到底問題出在哪裡"},{"start":9606.181,"end":9632.521,"text":"報告委員這幾年我們在網路投保上已經有大幅的開放那今年10月也開放保險公司做異業的合作跟電子商務的開放那這部分可以保證說明年會有純網保嗎這個是讓現有的業者能夠在網路上有更多的商業的機會所以明年會有嗎純網保是要明年1月底會跟各位報告我們評估的結果"},{"start":9633.686,"end":9648.085,"text":"最後因為我上次沒有問到就是F17的問題我們認為說金管會對受險業是一再的通融F17不斷的拖延2019年的時候告訴我們說考量國情2025年上路到2022又說考量國情2026年上路"},{"start":9651.91,"end":9665.968,"text":"當十月的時候﹐時無前例的容許受選業來做資產重分類、美化賬目到2023年最近﹐最新的十二月的、十一月的報告告訴我們說﹐要有十五年的過渡期﹐讓受選業傳口氣"},{"start":9668.411,"end":9695.442,"text":"所以整個這個一拖再拖台灣接軌RF17在國際上已經是後段班讓這些受險公司不斷的延長壽命他們其實在延長壽命的過程中卻在逃避他們該有的責任包括現金徵資所以這個比較下來台灣是全世界目前做完接軌RF17的要到2041年請問2041年主委你都幾歲了"},{"start":9697.506,"end":9719.168,"text":"這是我的個資吧這不是個資啊 對不對2041年那是距離現在也將近快要20年的時間欸是非常晚的時間欸那時候會發生什麼事情我們都不知道但我們IF17竟然要到2041年才能完全接軌你不覺得這20年真的太長了嗎"},{"start":9719.969,"end":9732.414,"text":"報告委員每一國家接軌都是有一些寬限期像歐盟接軌那個清查能力二也是16年但是人家很早就開始接軌啊臺灣是2026年才開始接軌還要再給他們15年的過渡期欸連韓國從今年1月1號開始接軌到現在10年過渡期最晚也是2033年我們還比人家再晚了8年欸"},{"start":9744.838,"end":9754.144,"text":"主要是因為我們民國90年代以前賣了很多六以上的高利率保單都是長年期終身的其實我們這樣做也是保障我們保護的權益"},{"start":9755.322,"end":9780.074,"text":"所以你們是要等他們消化完畢才要來讓他們去面對現在現今增資的這個需求嗎?不完全是消化完畢而是我們給配套措施給寬限期讓他逐年慢慢慢慢去調整好那最後再兩個小問題一個是新展並花期的案件消費糾紛不斷的頻傳客戶投訴越來越多但是我們沒有看到金管會有任何的作為很多的這些"},{"start":9780.814,"end":9803.97,"text":"全會的權益受到影響還有這個卡戶的權益也是一樣另外這個接口投信的胡亦佳自行宣布回任董事完全在挑戰我們的金管會但是金管會對接口可是一再的寬容罰環都非常的低接口投信違反結構信託法也只開罰120萬現在還公然挑戰金管會金管會的作為在哪裡"},{"start":9804.98,"end":9834.186,"text":"接口投信目前的瞭解他要先如果要申請回認必須先向投信投顧公會去申請那可以自行宣布嗎自行宣布回認董事是什麼意思啊金管會沒有同意之前自行宣布這是什麼意思我想他怎麼表達我想金管會到底在怕接口什麼啊就是說金管會你現在沒有任何的一個罰環或是他這樣混淆視聽他現在是不是接口的董事是不是"},{"start":9835.441,"end":9858.576,"text":"目前不是金管會．金管會也沒有同意嗎?金管會沒有同意之前．他就不能擔任接口投信的董事,對不對?是的對啊,那他為什麼可以自行宣布回認呢?那大家這樣是不是在混淆視聽．影響市場的信心?讓大家認為說他是接口投信的董事他可以這樣子招搖撞騙嗎?我們在記者會也有說明一切．以金管會最後的同意為主高偉仁,是不是?"},{"start":9858.996,"end":9886.759,"text":"所以我們還是希望金管會能夠拿出相關的法則來去針對接口投信還有像新展銀行類似這樣子對於消費者對於這些存戶對於金融市場都會產生影響那如果金管會都不處理會讓人家覺得說像這些為所欲為的金融機構招搖撞騙自己說自己是投信董事都還可以這個逃過我們相關制裁我覺得這樣子沒有辦法去取信社會大眾"},{"start":9888.321,"end":9888.761,"text":"陳嘉華、陳偉元、黃竺偉"},{"start":9911.256,"end":9932.783,"text":"主委,這次我們金管會有去COP28嗎?沒有去。那這兩天就是COP28大會他們有提出就是未來因應這個氣候變遷能夠讓地球溫度能夠限制不要超過1.5度的上升"},{"start":9933.73,"end":9958.297,"text":"其中一個提出新興增加清潔能源投資的融資機制請問今晚會針對這個部分﹐我們已經有相關的機制在了嗎?其實我們對六大核心戰略產業中﹐包括替代能源方面都是作為鼓勵的"},{"start":9959.045,"end":9986.097,"text":"這是屬於銀行局跟保險局都有相關業務嗎?對,其實這個在我們的綠色金融方案中其實都有鼓勵銀行業、保險業在投融資上去做義和鼓勵做低碳的融資跟投資好,那我請問一下我們在之前有提過一個就是綠色能源的投資方案裡面有一個SRF,我不知道我們現在"},{"start":9987.484,"end":9997.517,"text":"在融資方案裡面有把這個納進來嗎?我不太確定,對不起,SRF可能我孤陋寡聞不太曉得,國委員多知道"},{"start":9998.117,"end":10024.626,"text":"好那這個部分因為他不是屬於綠色能源他就是燒塑膠就是把那個我們的廢棄物裡面的塑膠再把它收集起來然後因為他有熱脂所以可以發電委員如果覺得這個是有節能或是減碳的效果您提供資料給我們我們看是不是因為我們的永續指標這一次被德國的一個團體我們評定又退步了所以我是覺得我們在"},{"start":10025.206,"end":10046.168,"text":"二、清潔能源的融資機制方面,我們真正能夠有減碳跟ESG跟配合融資這個部分能夠加強。也希望金管會能更了解,不要投資非真正的綠色能源。"},{"start":10047.247,"end":10049.029,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":10069.86,"end":10071.461,"text":"資訊就是說當年就是東網案有這個協助做一個共犯的人姓陳"},{"start":10079.96,"end":10099.871,"text":"那現在還可以到海外當經理但是吹哨者卻卻這個這個部分都被阻止了就是說因為有希望到海外當這個經理的這種機會都被遏止那不知道金管會對於這樣的情形有沒有什麼想法呢"},{"start":10101.363,"end":10123.039,"text":"很感謝委員對張瑩這個案子一直給我們很多指導那這個部分的情節我是不清楚如果委員願意的話可不可以會後提供資料我們請銀行提出說明好我也希望銀行局或者是相關單位包括張瑩能夠給一個明確的說明那可以給本席一個書面報告嗎"},{"start":10125.123,"end":10126.864,"text":"請委員提供您看到的個案資料"},{"start":10154.142,"end":10154.843,"text":"三條文修正審查程序第三條文修正草"},{"start":10173.451,"end":10191.381,"text":"憎意跟輔導精進作為其中有這五項,太陽,為師的太陽主委你看一下我們金管會針對這些太陽相關的警示、限制或相關作為我們如何來因應呢?"},{"start":10196.124,"end":10219.801,"text":"我的了解在交易所審查過程中已經就外界對這個公司的一些質疑有去做一些審查但是並不是說上市之後就一切都不需要去遵循我們還是會繼續去注意尤其請交易所注意這家公司您所提到的這些所謂的為師的太陽有沒有存在有存在我想交易所跟政局局都會做同步依法去處理"},{"start":10220.472,"end":10249.031,"text":"好那這五點這五點如果涉及我們金管會監理的業務相關的我們也可以進行這個監理的提出相關的這個報告或者是相關公司我們金管會不是個案的這個監理我們應該全面性的有比較這個全面性的一個制度面的監理我們怎麼來建立呢"},{"start":10250.131,"end":10274.656,"text":"因為任何一個上市位公司跟交易所都是有契約關係所以交易所已經知道委員的關心在審查中也有注意那您垂詢的這些所謂的資安或公司治理的那個消費者保護的事情交易所會定期去了解這家公司執行的情況如果有違失交易所會處理必要的時候需要牽涉到金管會政局局會去做處理"},{"start":10275.831,"end":10290.576,"text":"好,我們也希望不要再有類似的這個案例再發生啦畢竟我們覺得這個是很可惜本來是一個很好的健身產業因為這樣的爭議卻讓大家卻步了解好,謝謝謝謝委員指導好,謝謝陳教法委員接下來我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在接下來我們請林楚英委員上台質詢"},{"start":10309.193,"end":10312.168,"text":"主席有請黃天牧黃主委請黃主委上台備選"},{"start":10314.193,"end":10341.19,"text":"謝謝委員長主委好我想這個對於台股最近的表現我相信不只是委員們在意我知道像今天早上媒體們也都非常的關注因為這對於台灣的整體經濟面來講我相信這一定是有激勵的作用那麼本席找到一個是在2023年8月18號的時候當時歐盟就曾經有一個香港報告就提到這個所謂的一國兩制的瓦解那麼"},{"start":10341.87,"end":10368.394,"text":"外資撤退中資那麼這個整體來說他們也就看壞了這個整體香港的發展嗎那麼以台灣的現在股市的狀況我先來舉一下是前幾天當時我們第一次台股正式超越港股的時候在野黨就在那邊質疑說這個會不會是有所謂的政治操作甚至於包括連國安基金的設立都被質疑了"},{"start":10369.094,"end":10384.323,"text":"我相信這個對於臺股30年終於超越香港這樣的一個過程當中其實很多人都是認為這代表著臺灣不論是經過疫情或者是一連串的這樣的打擊之後我們還是屹立不搖"},{"start":10385.824,"end":10412.702,"text":"主委可以聊一下你怎麼來看歐盟的這一份報告那麼確實外資是不是象徵著一個所謂春江水奶鴨鮮汁的這樣的一個角色那麼面對這近8年來臺股往上上漲了87%而港股卻是下跌27%那麼這其中是不是也某種程度可以看得出來那麼國際尤其是外資這些重大的投資者對於臺灣經濟的一個表態"},{"start":10415.384,"end":10415.52,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第10屆第8會期財政委員會"},{"start":10417.302,"end":10444.698,"text":"資本市場是一個非常國際化的一個機制所以這個資本市場是不是開放自由上市會公司是不是有這個好的表現都是包括公司治理永續都是外資評估要不要投資參與的因素之一那我覺得台股這麼多年來在大家的有些委員的指導努力跟我們的努力之下、燕業者努力之下其實是有長途的進步尤其我們的"},{"start":10446.059,"end":10475.639,"text":"三十年前跟三十年後臺股的資本市場的產業結構有很大的不同現在半導體電子占一半以上三十年前是傳統產業跟金融產業這些都是我們今天之所以能夠在國際資本市場上有一席之地的重要原因但是有的地區有的國家它因為有一些不同的因素的影響讓大家對這個地區或國家有些不同的想法我想我就不多評論但是我想臺股的成功不是成功臺股的發展是有它的因素的"},{"start":10476.319,"end":10495.833,"text":"所以其實本席會問這個問題主要的是說當這個台灣的台股超越港股那麼我相信許多的不論是投資人又或者是一些財經專家都一路看好的情況底下卻認為說這是民進黨的政府在搞選舉的手段包括連國安基金的設置是不是有國安基金進場護盤都被質疑那麼"},{"start":10498.115,"end":10516.116,"text":"我們都知道其實有關於金融監理最重要的其實就是金管會金管會對於我們在這個質詢台上包括有沒有一些所謂的必須要關注的就是交易其實金管會、政期局其實包括都是在監理的過程當中那麼"},{"start":10517.918,"end":10529.489,"text":"經濟部或是國發會其實都是有發出新聞稿來講說這個過程當中就是台灣的經濟越來越好那麼經管會有看到真的有所謂的不法的操作嗎?"},{"start":10531.055,"end":10552.018,"text":"我在這個場合也接受到很多委員的槌尋包括有沒有什麼選舉行情我都說其實金管會是非常專業、公平、透明的我們不做任何的非金融經濟以外的事情我們就是維護這個市場的穩定發展、透明專業讓大家覺得這個市場的投資是有信心的"},{"start":10553.301,"end":10568.433,"text":"因為我覺得這樣的一個質詢也許很多人會覺得說這是不是在撐時間但是我認為像這樣的所謂台灣的股市表現得好甚至於連財經專家都肯定的時候"},{"start":10568.993,"end":10590.798,"text":"但是卻出現這種說為了選舉做多甚至於連國安基金的設置都說是因為有國安基金進場護盤我認為其實金管會必須就是像我剛剛必須要對您提出這樣的質疑或是要求您回答問題的原因在於我們不能說我們自己表現得好然後反而還被在野黨看衰這對於國際怎麼看台灣"},{"start":10593.599,"end":10606.352,"text":"好,大家就覺得說怎麼我們表現得好煩是在野黨不斷地在唱衰當外資都看好台灣然後看壞香港的發展的時候結果是我們的在野黨在覺得說我們做得不好當然我不會要求金管會必須要像經濟部或者是國發會一樣要去特別發一個新聞稿來做澄清但是至少"},{"start":10612.478,"end":10624.913,"text":"在主委的回覆當中是可以確定沒有所謂的不法操縱而包括像國安基金的設置國安基金的進場都是有其必要性嗎他不是為了選舉做多是吧"},{"start":10626.206,"end":10646.382,"text":"我覺得過去沒有現在也沒有好那麼接下來當然就回到我們今天的這個主題的報告我想對於這個開放銀行的部分是主委過去一路以來都支持這樣的一個方向那我們從2019年公開資訊資料的查詢到2021年是給消費者有機會可以來查詢"},{"start":10647.122,"end":10661.334,"text":"那麼接下來多家銀行的整合的部分會是下一步跟下一個階段嗎?因為我們現在第二階段的部分本席看到的是公營行庫8家百分之百都參與了但民營的部分其實只有7家如果加進郵局的話這樣算是16家那麼目前為止"},{"start":10665.657,"end":10676.528,"text":"民營銀行的參與率不高甚至於我必須說是偏低的只有28%主委這是遇到一個什麼樣的情況讓民營銀行覺得興趣缺缺是因為擔心太過開放影響競爭力嗎?"},{"start":10680.556,"end":10699.58,"text":"這也是今天很多人指導因為這個交易面資訊是非常敏感的包括對TSB業者的治安的要求還有很多人提到他的擴面的背景所以可能銀行業者覺得這個部分要信任一個TSB業者去做這種交易面的平臺也許他會有更高的要求跟標準"},{"start":10700.183,"end":10728.164,"text":"是所以這也會變成是當我們要走到開放銀行的第三階段的時候肯定會遇到很大的阻礙應該是這樣子因為站在他們的立場上他們也很怕接下來合作的這個所謂第三方的服務業者的平台會出現他們擔憂的狀況那這樣子會不會變成你要推到下一個部分的時候因為其實坦白說我在討論這個題目的時候我也問了我辦公室的助理們說如果"},{"start":10729.417,"end":10754.124,"text":"一個可以整合出開放銀行走到第三階段的利跟弊到底是在哪裡比如說其實我們現在很多的業者他們自己都有開發他們屬於他們自己的這個網路上面的查詢的平台比如說你只要有開戶你進入了相關的資料之後你可以看到你自己在這家銀行裡面包括這個金融集團裡面我可能是信用卡"},{"start":10754.684,"end":10758.167,"text":"第二條文修正審查程序第三條文修正草"},{"start":10764.983,"end":10787.871,"text":"彼此之間資訊共享那麼真正的癥結點是資安的問題還是擔心接下來有一種所謂客戶或者是所謂使用的消費者之間彼此不願意就是怕客人被搶走諸位你們在溝通的過程當中是什麼樣一個狀況這個是個局長可以說明一下"},{"start":10789.98,"end":10805.837,"text":"報告員其實都有啦除了資安的這個問題之外因為接下來是透過這個第三方去查詢整合甚至交易所以這個部分的話其實就傳統銀行而言他們這都是他們顧慮的"},{"start":10807.779,"end":10835.66,"text":"好 所以因為有這樣的顧慮我覺得也可以理解但是會不會就變成是說這就變成只能做半套我們大概就是只能停留在第二階段讓消費者做資訊的查核可是要進到第三階段的時候要多方整合比如說我今天真的進入吉保的依存者的這個部分我就可以看到其他銀行的部分的包括存款或者是狀況那可是就是"},{"start":10836.34,"end":10837.121,"text":"審查本院民進黨總預算案審查程序第三條"},{"start":10856.796,"end":10876.47,"text":"那這個部分恐怕也就不是主管機關你真的說你一定要邀請他進來那他很可能就是會一直停留在這個階段因為當然我們知道說可能也許這個會期我們大概今天是最後一次來討論這個問題那接下來也許就是下一屆或下一個會期但他會不會永遠就是卡在這裡而無解"},{"start":10878.231,"end":10907.137,"text":"那有沒有什麼更可能的溝通方式其實我希望主委或是銀行局能夠去注意這方面的問題其實我還是很感謝召委安排這樣一個報告其實讓我們聽到很多委員的關切除了資安已經有提到另外一個業者自己本身的誘因的問題我想至少我們先把資安的部分處理好那業者誘因部分我們再跟工會這邊再多了解他們的心態看看是不是有可能促成"},{"start":10907.637,"end":10925.543,"text":"好,因為對我們來講我們當然是完全的支持希望走到開放銀行這個部分但是呢,也不要說因為目前為止民營行戶所增加的不多那就變成是整個開放只開放半套那這確實是很可惜了解,謝謝委員的指導,謝謝好,謝謝林委員接下來我們請羅賓才羅委員上台質詢"},{"start":10939.386,"end":10965.656,"text":"主席各位出列習官員大家好主席可否請保險局局長主委先喝口水我們請保險局司局長上台這屆會期最後一次我們要審慎來思考一下究竟銀行證券保險金融界裡面大概這幾年"},{"start":10966.243,"end":10995.03,"text":"金融的情況有沒有上軌道現在目前大概有幾家的受險公司跟產險公司那從過去的20年到現在整個資產規模變化非常非常大那我們知道這個局長在這個位置很辛苦的這個經營所以也讓所有的業者可以說是大發財整個金融的整體去年"},{"start":10995.692,"end":11022.029,"text":"算一算應該算今年大概已經賺了七千五百多億了吧那局長你覺得他們這樣的一個表現是不是一個正常的發展那對未來的話因為你好像這個好像也快退休了什麼時候退休你可不可以集你一生的功力那趁這個幾次最後上台的機會也大家分享一下你多年來的經驗"},{"start":11024.526,"end":11044.353,"text":"報告委員我是明年退休那剛剛委員有提到那個7000多億的部分應該是指的是整個金融產業那我們的部分應該在今年產售險都有獲利但是獲利的程度應該還沒有那麼高"},{"start":11047.244,"end":11066.117,"text":"在產險的部分現在都已經損益兩平了嗎?因為去年和今年遭受很大的傷害今年到10月左右大概整個淨利有大概130億左右稅後淨利產險的部分嗎?自結的產險的部分那比較恢復了那請問產險有沒有還在虧損的?或者會倒閉的?"},{"start":11075.667,"end":11091.362,"text":"產險的部分以目前來講我們在6月底的時候還有一家那個RBC還沒有符合標準但是到目前為止都已經提升到200以上了產險的部分全部都符合法定標準這當然有20幾家嘛產險對"},{"start":11097.325,"end":11125.755,"text":"受險的部分從大概20年前到現在以前的規模很小現在整個的資產規模有多大那為什麼在這短短一、二十年會產生如此大的變化是政策的支持呢因為我們看到甚至買外國的國債、公債最多的其實就是受險公司一買就買好幾兆手上的數字大概是買了多少兆"},{"start":11127.817,"end":11147.34,"text":"跟我們報告,受險業的目前資產規模大概35兆左右。國外投資的部分大概22兆左右。大部分大概有九成多的都是在固定收益的有一價證券的部分。"},{"start":11148.081,"end":11176.519,"text":"大概都是以什麼計價?有九成左右是美元計價的九成以上的國外投資我看蠻集中的所以也要小心海外的投資過去曾經成招滑鐵盧有人投資俄羅斯有人投資以色列那對於這個授權公司未來海外投資的規範會不會做一個審核的標準"},{"start":11178.264,"end":11193.331,"text":"我們都有訂規範啦尤其是在這個整個風險控管的部分有要求受險業對於投資面要進行相關的這個那個管理啦好像也是有碰觸地雷的啊之前在2008年的時候對那時候也有一些投資虧損"},{"start":11207.096,"end":11209.817,"text":"二十一家的售險公司當中有沒有目前還是虧損的?"},{"start":11230.748,"end":11259.695,"text":"以目前來看的話是有虧損的比如說像我們後面有幾家那個RBC還沒有達到法定標準的公司三家?五家比較後端嗎?三家有三家喔?那對於這三家會不會倒啊?各位我報告針織好像都沒有針織欸有一些公司有針織有一些公司他在也出售了不動產"},{"start":11261.817,"end":11284.689,"text":"提升出租率,所以在提升RBC上,他們目前都在努力當中。三家?三家的部分就是宏泰、星光跟山商山商已經增資了吧?山商在上半年跟下半年都有增資會不會再出狀況?他們也在努力當中"},{"start":11288.519,"end":11308.766,"text":"是,我們就覺得這個授權公司啊,這個良幼不起啊,你看好的,可以好到非常好,賺了很多很多的錢,經營比較沒有上軌道了,居然還會出現虧損,這個不曉得是問題出在哪裡,是因為他的營業限制項目嗎?"},{"start":11311.402,"end":11335.37,"text":"我們大概沒有特別限制哪一家的營業項目有一些公司可能他投資上比較沒有表現那麼好有一些可能是業務上的影響主要投資方面沒有做好封控或者是投錯地方比如說投到俄羅斯就一戰爭就虧了50億、60億、70億到現在也還沒解"},{"start":11341.36,"end":11369.903,"text":"藏還是掛在那邊對好那我們希望說主管機關對這些受險公司要特別的注意因為畢竟是全民的投保的一個利益在這個地方不能讓保護受到災害到時候理賠沒有辦法理賠是委員我們會努力好謝謝這個局長施局長那請主委黃天牧黃主委"},{"start":11370.85,"end":11399.862,"text":"請黃主委上台備選去年這樣算一算表現金融整體的獲益超過7500億也大概是歷史的次高那面對這樣的一個情況這個應該都是養精蓄銳可以說是兵強馬大這時候更應該來要求所有的金融相關業者不要讓金融詐騙一再的發生吧"},{"start":11401.496,"end":11420.47,"text":"主委有沒有什麼方法除了主管機關的注意之外銀行也要做點事啊因為畢竟他們是第一線嘛其實我們很多配合打詐平台做的法規的調整銀行在第一線都有配合包括科技防詐都有在做可是還是有詐騙的情況"},{"start":11422.321,"end":11427.564,"text":"金融詐騙變成全國民眾覺得十大痛物之一大概是排名好像第一還第二大家覺得哇好像到處都是危險處處是危機可不可以拜託黃主委"},{"start":11449.713,"end":11459.339,"text":"想辦法看怎麼樣讓這一些危機化成轉機讓我們不要一看到這些詐騙都覺得人心惶惶"},{"start":11461.547,"end":11490.169,"text":"委員這個拜託我們承擔不起是我們應該要做的而且我們是同理心每一個人都有可能被詐騙所以其實我們在法規上包括配合洗房法包括我們自己對信用卡各方面我們都有在做當然我想做的也許不見得符合所有大家的期待我們會再不斷地再努力但是可以看出來我們幾乎每個月都有一些新的法規的調整新的制度的修正所以我們是在不斷地在精進自己的作為"},{"start":11491.069,"end":11494.945,"text":"因為現在人也有所以金融機構也有錢要怎麼樣來"},{"start":11496.38,"end":11523.237,"text":"把這個防詐的防護網把它安全的設立起來很重要我們最近還在公平待客中把那個打詐的績效放在公平待客的機制的評核裡面是對不起剛才打斷您的講話上一次居然財政部還在網路上變成他是詐騙集團使用的一個公家機關你知道這件事嗎抱歉我不太清楚"},{"start":11524.276,"end":11545.546,"text":"他就是說在這個網址上財政部有什麼什麼什麼後康的還是什麼的結果弄半天那個是假的金管會常被冒用說他的錢放到金管會被扣留啊金管會也被詐騙嗎對啊我看那個資訊中也說錢被金管會扣住你要找誰找誰也把我們的名字放進去了"},{"start":11545.779,"end":11572.892,"text":"那儘管會扣錢有沒有還人家錢啊?我們沒有扣錢啊沒有所以是假的是假的奇怪那為什麼有這些歹徒他敢在太歲爺上動土他要打聽一下啊黃天牧也不是塑膠啊也不是好惹的啊那有查出來是誰嗎?我們在我們紀有記這上都有查我們上都也公佈了一些資訊我們定期都有公佈資訊"},{"start":11574.585,"end":11601.439,"text":"我希望說是要快狠準把這個打詐防詐整個機制真的要充分的做好我們希望所有的民眾在臺灣在金融秩序方面大家是可以安心的錢放在銀行是可以放心的放在銀行裡面有定存還有升利息是可以領得到的是對銀行是有信心的好不好了解謝謝委員知道謝謝"},{"start":11604.451,"end":11610.554,"text":"我們今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢,現在進行討論事項及臨時提案之處理。"},{"start":11621.967,"end":11637.694,"text":"請議事人員宣讀今日審查中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案一案提案內容含臨時提案共一案我們宣讀完畢之後就進行協商現在請進行宣讀"},{"start":11639.096,"end":11664.017,"text":"民進黨黨團提案中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案對照現行條文除第一項第三款第一目行政院農業委員會修正為農業部第一項第五款第一目行政院原子能委員會修正為核能安全委員會第一項第八款第一目行政院環境保護署修正為環境部其餘同現行條文臨時提案第一案"},{"start":11664.838,"end":11675.214,"text":"金管會自2019年推動開放銀行Open Banking政策才鼓勵業者以自願自律方式分三階段實施2019年第一階段公開資訊查詢上線2020年"},{"start":11680.262,"end":11697.787,"text":"第二階段消費者資訊查詢上線並擬於2023年12月前和被第三階段交易面資訊之自律規範及資安標準進一步擴大實施第三階段服務查銀行工會制定之銀行與第三方服務提供者合作之自律規範"},{"start":11699.047,"end":11715.734,"text":"僅規定銀行在選擇第三方服務提供者﹐TSP業者應該要注意的原則﹐包括要確保TSP業者的資本額﹐有資安能力﹐個資風險管理﹐遵循洗錢防治法等法規﹐實應TSP業者非金融機構﹐其主管機關為經濟部﹐金管會並無管轄權﹐"},{"start":11718.715,"end":11746.79,"text":"故僅將查核責任規則於銀行,談未來開放銀行實施第三階段金融交易衍生金融消費爭議,恐不適用金融爭議解決機制。原要求金融監督管理委員會研議跨部會監管開放銀行第三方服務提供者,制定完整金融爭議解決機制,確保金融消費者權益,並於兩個月內提交書面報告。提案人林楚英審發會中嘉賓宣讀完畢。"},{"start":11749.363,"end":11765.975,"text":"好,那我們現在就先就法案的部分來協商這個法案就是其實這個民主進步黨黨團所提的法案其實就是針對這個我們預算審查程序裡面幾個部會我們這個已經行政院組織已經改組"},{"start":11767.176,"end":11793.429,"text":"一個是農委會改成農業部一個是原子能委員會改成核能安全委員會一個是環保署改成環境部我想這個應該我們就是相應的修正應該有沒有意見沒有意見沒有意見那我們我們就按照這個民進黨黨團的版本通過那接下來是林楚英委員的臨時提案這個部分請主委這邊表示意見"},{"start":11797.506,"end":11812.553,"text":"好那我們就照案通過好那我們協商完成請議事人員宣讀協商結論宣讀協商結論中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案照案通過臨時提案一項照案通過宣讀完畢好這個"},{"start":11817.968,"end":11832.377,"text":"本次會議作如下決議報告說明及詢答完畢委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會議週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定"},{"start":11835.582,"end":11859.19,"text":"案一案,全案審查完略,擬具審查報告提報院會說明,院會討論前不需交黨團協商,院會討論時由本席補充說明。」請問各位委員對以上決議有無異議?沒有,沒有異議我們就通過。另外本次會議議事錄授權由本席核定後確定,請問各位委員有無異議?"},{"start":11860.714,"end":11871.44,"text":"好沒有的話我們通過本次會議議程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}