{"error":false,"id":["153448"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153448,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153448","日期":"2024-06-03","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-03T09:59:11+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-03T10:11:50+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:39","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c7071b6859aa7982e4a859c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0c851e85303a1be6c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"09:59:11 - 10:11:50","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":420,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（9時59分）謝謝主席、雪生兄。請陳耀祥主委。"],["主席：耀祥主委。"],["蔡委員其昌：請中華電信，今天3家中只有1家嘛？"],["主席：郭董，嗯。"],["蔡委員其昌：另外2家有來嗎？"],["主席：沒有。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有來，那就中華電信當代表。另外請個人資料保護委員會的鄭副主任也一起。"],["主席：鄭副主任。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：3位好。今天主席排的這個題目，我的理解上，我並不希望把它理解成王義川先生個人的事件，但是這個事件的背後有很重要的價值。我覺得人權是民進黨從政黨員非常重要的價值，是我們這個黨很重要的DNA，所以我在立法院將近20年的時間，過去我每次都會對科技發展提出質詢。我十幾年前還必須每天質詢，eTag剛啟用的時候我就曾在交通委員會問了一個問題，當時立法院的院長叫王金平，我就問：王院長的座車經過哪幾個交流道，誰可以去調這個資訊？當時交通部的回答是員警就可以調資訊。這都牽涉到個資的保護，所以對我而言這個題目很重要，因為我一直在強調一個觀念──如果人權的保障跟不上黃仁勳，那AI是福是禍？AI也有可能是災難啊！AI有可能是災難！","這幾天黃仁勳的新聞占滿了新聞媒體各個版面，不是只有經濟的版面，甚至還有政治的版面，因為對岸的小粉紅對於黃仁勳的講話也很感冒，他說臺灣是重要的國家，是AI產業的支柱嘛，所以對方也很抓狂。體育版也占滿了，因為黃仁勳到我們中華職棒大巨蛋味全的主場去開球，所以他幾乎占據了所有的版面。黃仁勳為什麼會得到那麼多關注？是因為黃仁勳NVIDIA的GPU帶動了整個AI產業在全球的發展，讓AI產業帶動的發展改變了人類的生活。換言之，我們面對科技趨勢其實是相對的，因為在未來AI的時代裡面，透過大數據的蒐集、分析，教會AI，讓這個電腦、機器人學習人類所有的行為，而能夠教導這些電腦的其實就是我們的大數據。大數據的運用在這幾年，就算AI還沒有成形，數據的經濟、數據的科技早就已經運用在包括醫療，未來醫療的判讀，譬如照完X光之後，到底生了什麼病？醫生都可能被取代。這個就是發展的趨勢。","回過頭來，對於這些大數據的data，如果我們的法規跟不上，如果我們法規對人權的保障、隱私權的保障跟不上，那麼各位想想這到底是福還是禍？這是不是災難？所以我一直在強調這一點。為什麼我對個資保護委員會籌備處非常在乎，就是因為這個。","好，我們現在回過頭來看這個事情。先看一下現在我們對於電信公司所提供的這些數據的運用狀況，我只舉幾個縣市政府為例，你可以在臺中市政府的網站裡面找到這些它對觀光景點的分析資料，我想請問一下陳主委，在目前的法規裡面，去跟三大電信業者買了手機的大數據資料，分析完之後，公布了性別、人次、年齡，這是合法還是非法？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告，如果它是一個輪廓性的資訊，比如說20歲到40歲，性別男女等等，如果以這些輪廓性資訊來講的話，可以去識別化，也就是不會直接或間接跟個人連結的話，那就是合法的。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以關鍵是去識別化。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，換言之，臺中市政府、新北市政府這個都是合法的，不管是縣市政府自己去跟電信公司買這個數據資料，然後進行分析，或者是他們再委託數據公司、公關公司進行這個數據的分析，以目前的法規來講，這個都是合法的。也就是說，公布人次、公布性別、公布年齡，只要是在去識別化的前提底下，不知道幾歲的這個人是誰（去識別化的意思就是這樣），譬如說蔡其昌當天在現場，這個不行！對不對？但是我的年紀，譬如說我55歲，如果說裡面有一個55歲的，這個是合法的，對不對？我們先釐清嘛！案子要處理一定要先釐清。數據的買賣隨著科技的發展，三大電信公司都有提供這樣的服務，郭董事長，這樣對不對？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，只要是去識別化、輪廓性的分析資料，這是合法的。"],["蔡委員其昌：是合法的，你們都有在買賣？"],["郭董事長水義：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：我也可以買？"],["郭董事長水義：提供……"],["蔡委員其昌：任何一個人都可以去買你們的資料，對不對？"],["郭董事長水義：我們針對那個活動的主辦單位，只要它非關政黨、政治性議題，我們都會提供人潮分析的資料。"],["蔡委員其昌：換言之，我要問的是說：這是三大電信業者的business，對不對？"],["郭董事長水義：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：是你們的商業活動嘛！"],["郭董事長水義：對，是我們的商業活動、我們的業務項目之一。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以你們商業活動提供出來的這些data、這些數據基本上就已經去識別化了，對不對？"],["郭董事長水義：對，我們在進行分析之前都去識別化了。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我想請問副主任，我沒有針對，因為今天只有中華電信列席。三大電信業者未來所販售的資料裡面，如果有可能沒辦法去識別化，或者去識別化之後還可回溯，那麼未來個人資料保護委員會籌備處有什麼樣的因應措施？"],["鄭副主任其昀：蔡委員好。跟委員報告一下，在目前的電信管理法裡面，針對可以回溯的個人資料（也就是非匿名化的資料）其實已經有一個機制，就是需要當事人同意，當然這個機制還是要去落實。"],["蔡委員其昌：那麼如果發現三大電信業者有人違規的時候，我們的處理機制是什麼？"],["鄭副主任其昀：報告委員，現行個資法有關電信業者的部分基本上可以由NCC來處理，將來委員會成立，還是會繼續處理。"],["蔡委員其昌：站在資料保護主管單位的立場，你覺得現在的處罰和保護個人資料的機制夠不夠？法規或者處罰的金額夠不夠？"],["鄭副主任其昀：在111年憲判字第13號判決之後，其實我們已經理解很多機制我們大概都會重新檢視，將來我們還會提出更好的機制。"],["蔡委員其昌：你們現在是籌備處，其實我對你們這個單位寄予無限的期待。"],["鄭副主任其昀：謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：很簡單，我剛剛講，所有的法規（因為時間很有限，我沒辦法一一告訴你）隨著科技發展，對於相關的可能洩漏個資的防範或者是對人權的保障，其實你責任重大，所以你必須跟著黃仁勳，你不能落後黃仁勳，你要跟著他、知道現在整個AI發展到什麼程度，這個科技的運用可能對人權、對個資的保護產生什麼樣的重大影響。對岸已經在展現實力給你看了！對岸對所有的消費行為、你這一輩子買了什麼東西，資料、data清清楚楚，你走在路上所有的資訊，照著你、人臉辨識，清清楚楚，所以如果不把個資保護做好、如果今天個資保護委員會不趕快成立，同時透過法規的建置，AI運用得不好，會是集權主義的溫床。更多的想像是：到底是人類用機器人，還是未來機器人統治人類？它都不再是科幻電影裡面的情節，它可能會在真實世界裡面上演。所以這就是我對於你們這個單位的期許，你們身兼人權保護、個資保護，在科技的運用為人類帶來方便的同時，背後應該去想的是：人做為一個人的價值是什麼？這才是今天這個問題的關鍵啦！副主任，我所要表達的意思很清楚嘛！"],["鄭副主任其昀：謝謝委員，非常清楚，也非常感謝委員關心這個議題，其實我們目前也持續有在關注包含AI這種新興科技，也有一些平台在跟各部會合作。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。另外，我看了NCC的報告，主委在報告裡面有提到，你們馬上對三大電信業者進行了行政調查。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：對於這次的青鳥行動，沒有任何民間公司或個人跟三大電信業者購買這次的數據，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個確定嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：確定。"],["蔡委員其昌：除非三大業者說謊，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：否則你的調查是這樣子嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：換言之，就我看到你的報告的結論，任何人在講述這一次的青鳥行動，在我看來，只要業者沒有販售任何資料，看起來都是自我想像的，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：應該是這樣嘛！就是不管要上電視、上廣播或自己寫臉書，基本上都是他自己的推論跟想像，應該是這樣來理解嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以我還是回到主題，勿枉勿縱，對於個資的保護、人權的保障，我們不應該隨著科技或者是哪一個政黨在執政而有所差別，這個是捍衛臺灣人的人權價值，跟我們對於每一個人的個資該有的保護，其實它也是國家安全，我們應該要不分黨派，來嚴格地把守這件事情。","最後剩下一個小小的問題，副主任，我們的籌備會到底要籌備到什麼時候才可以正式掛牌？"],["鄭副主任其昀：跟蔡委員報告，我們其實正在努力的持續，因為這中間還會有一些研議的修法，包含到個資法中間跟組織職權的配套，我們大概是努力在明年……"],["蔡委員其昌：好，你要快一點，這個時候你要提出修法，因為看起來現在藍綠都重視個資保護，不然今天主席就不會排這個題目了，既然大家都重視，風都來了，你還不揚帆，你就是蠢蛋了嘛！所以趕快，這些相關的修法，院長也說，像這個就是大家有共識，既然藍綠有共識，這個修法應該要加速進行，你的籌備時間也因為朝野立委對人權保護、對個資保護的支持，速度應該要加快，這樣可不可以？"],["鄭副主任其昀：是，謝謝，我們會儘快提出草案。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝主席，謝謝大家。"],["主席：好，謝謝副院長。副院長對今天這個議題持保留態度，當然副院長有他的高度，但畢竟這個大數據事情已經發生在青鳥行動，我跟副院長報告，在上一次蔡英文總統選舉的時候，我就看過這種東西啦！所以合法的流出與不合法的流出，這是一回事，大數據的承辦同仁、這個領導有沒有把東西流出去？不一定是買賣，私底下流出去那才可怕，對不對？既然王義川執行長吐露出來，尤其是從他這樣一個重要職務吐露出來的訊息，這真是有問題，所以我才設計把今天的議題定位到國家機器，這一點我跟副院長報告。","下一位請魯明哲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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是我們的商業活動的我們的業務項目之一所以你們商業活動提供出來的這些data這些數據基本上就已經去識別化了對不對對 我們在進行分析之前都去識別化好那個我想請問副主任為三大我沒有針對因為只有今天只有中華電信來啦是三大電信業者未來所販售的資料裡面如果有可能"},{"start":414.54,"end":422.424,"text":"沒有辦法去識別化或者去識別化之後還可回溯那我們未來我們這個籌備會這個個人資料保護的這個籌備會未來你們有什麼因應措施"},{"start":428.917,"end":450.123,"text":"蔡委員好跟委員報告一下目前現在目前的行政電信的管理法裡面針對這個如果是可以回溯的這些個人資料也就是不是匿名化的資料其實它已經有一個機制就是會需要當事人同意那這個當然就是會這個機制還是要去落實那我們如果發現有人有三大電信業者違規的時候我們的處理機制是什麼"},{"start":452.702,"end":471.444,"text":"美國委員目前現在個資法目前就電信業者基本上已經可以由NC這邊來去處理那將來以後委員會成立還是會繼續處理好那你覺得站在你個人資料保護的主管單位的立場你覺得現在的處罰跟防保護個人資料的機制夠不夠法規或者處罰的金額"},{"start":474.214,"end":496.502,"text":"委員當然這個在111年憲判第13號解釋之後其實我們大概已經理解很多的機制我們大概都會重新再來去檢視那將來我們還會再去提出更好的你現在是籌備處啦其實我對於你們這個單位我寄予無限的期待謝謝委員你很簡單我剛剛講所有的法規"},{"start":497.922,"end":513.468,"text":"這裡面因為時間很有限我沒有辦法一一告訴你這裡面隨著科技的發展你所要防範的相關的可能洩漏個資或者可能在這個這個對人權保障上面其實你責任重大"},{"start":514.485,"end":532.834,"text":"所以你必須要走在你要跟著黃仁勳啊你不能落後黃仁勳啊你要跟著他知道說現在整個AI發展到什麼程度這一個科技的運用可能對人權對個資的保護產生什麼樣重大影響對岸已經在展現實力給你看了"},{"start":533.923,"end":561.842,"text":"對岸從所有的消費行為你一天你這一輩子你買了什麼東西資料Data清清楚楚你走在路上所有的資訊照著你人眼辨識清清楚楚所以如果不把這些個資保護做好如果今天啊這個個資保護的這個委員會這個籌備會不趕快來成立然後同時透過法規的建制AI 運用不好他是極權主義的溫床"},{"start":564.09,"end":580.703,"text":"他是極權主義的文人那更多的想像是到底是人類用機器人還是未來機器人統治人類他都不再是科幻電影裡面的情節他可能會在真實世界裡面上演所以這個就是我對於"},{"start":582.574,"end":598.71,"text":"你們這個單位身兼對於人權保護對於個資的保護對到底科技的運用對人類帶來方便的同時我們應該要背後去想著人作為一個人的價值是什麼這個才是今天這個問題的關鍵"},{"start":601.753,"end":617.049,"text":"副主任你知道我所要表達的意思很清楚吧謝謝委員非常清楚那也非常感謝委員關心這個議題那我們其實目前也持續的有在關注包含AI、KL、新興科技那我們其實有一些平台其實會跟各部會一起合作那另外我看了NCC的報告"},{"start":617.99,"end":640.147,"text":"如果你有報告裡面有提到三大電信業者你們馬上進行了行政調查三大電信業者對於這一次的青鳥行動沒有任何的民間公司或個人跟三大電信業者購買這一次的數據對不對沒錯這個確定嘛除非三大業者說法對不對否則你的調查是這樣子沒錯"},{"start":641.588,"end":657.283,"text":"所以換言之不管任何人在運用就我看到你的報告的結論就任何人在講述這一次的侵略行動在我看來只要業者沒有販售任何資料看起來都是自我想像的"},{"start":658.144,"end":686.695,"text":"對不對應該是這樣嘛就自己不管要上電視上廣播自己寫臉書基本上都是他自己的推論跟想像應該是這樣來理解沒錯所以我還是回到主題啦勿枉勿重啦就是不可以對於個資的保護人權的保障我們不應該隨著科技或者是哪一個政黨在執政我們要有所差別這個是捍衛台灣人的這個人權的價值跟"},{"start":687.979,"end":706.054,"text":"我們對於每一個人各自該有的保護其實它也是國家安全我們應該要不分黨派來把這件事情嚴格的把守好那最後剩下一個小小的問題那個副主任我們的籌備會到底要籌備到什麼時候才可以正式掛牌"},{"start":706.658,"end":734.273,"text":"是跟那個蔡委員報告我們其實正在努力的持續因為這中間還會有一些研議的修法包含到各自法可能中間的一些跟組織職權的一些配套那我們大概是那個努力在名言好你要快一點喔修法齁這個時候你提出來因為藍綠現在看起來都重視這個個資保護嘛不然今天主席就不會排這個題目嘛那既然大家都重視齁風都來了你還不揚帆你就是蠢蛋了嘛"},{"start":735.069,"end":759.001,"text":"所以趕快這些相關的修法這個院長也說嘛像這個就是大家有共識藍綠有共識的這個修法應該要加速進行你的籌備時間也因為大家朝野立委支持對人權保護對於個資保護的支持所以你的速度應該要加快這樣可不可以是謝謝我們盡快提出草案好謝謝主席謝謝大家謝謝副院長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}