{"error":false,"id":["153451"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153451,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153451","日期":"2024-06-03","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-03T10:12:54+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-03T10:27:21+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:27","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c70721be1a88676d034b59c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0c13064af4447e51475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"10:12:54 - 10:27:21","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":482,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時12分）謝謝召委。有請數發部黃部長、NCC陳主委、法務部黃次長，還有中華電信郭董。"],["主席：請黃部長、陳主委、黃次長、郭董。"],["魯委員明哲：這個剛剛很多委員也講過了，本來是一個設計在1984年的劇本，老大哥在watching 他的人民，結果40年之後，奇怪了！我們現在也不知道到底是真的還是假的，但是確定人民開始有一個懷疑，包括我們立法院也好，我相信在座的主管，包括你們問了半天，從早上到昨天的新聞、前天的新聞，大家基本上不是否認，就是都說沒有嘛！資料沒有、這個也沒有，全部都沒有，現在的情況是他到底說了什麼？","（播放影片）"],["魯委員明哲：第一個，這是王義川正式講的，他是民進黨政策會黨部的主管，是主管喔！不是隨便的黨工。他講了什麼呢？他就把三個活動做對比，很簡單嘛！這三個活動要怎麼做對比？有些是在五個月前的113選前之夜，請問中華電信，或是大數據中心有來嗎？如果今天我跟你要資料，要112當天在某個地方，誰有去、誰沒去，現在在你們電腦裡面可以查得到嗎？就是假設我現在合法跟你要，你有沒有這個數據？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，政治集會上面的活動，我們沒有進行這方面的人潮分析，我們的人潮分析主要是針對剛才提到的商業、活動、地方城市治理、交通疏解、觀光旅遊……"],["魯委員明哲：所以你們人潮分析有一個關鍵點，是不是都要事前申請？"],["郭董事長水義：對。"],["魯委員明哲：我現在問你嘛！我現在就事後……"],["郭董事長水義：沒有錯，要先溝通。"],["魯委員明哲：假設那邊沒有需要架設機器，或者鎖定什麼資料，這是你們技術性的問題嘛！我現在如果跳躍，要五個月前的一個活動，你有沒有辦法提供？"],["郭董事長水義：沒有辦法。"],["魯委員明哲：真的還假的？"],["郭董事長水義：我們沒有保留那麼長的時間的資料。"],["魯委員明哲：那你要去問王義川，他都知道，可能技術上面你要請教他。"],["郭董事長水義：我們不清楚他的說法。"],["魯委員明哲：好。第一個，三個活動比對，第二個，關鍵字就是手機的訊號，再看下一個。","（播放影片）"],["魯委員明哲：好，這是他第二個的說法，而且包括民進黨黨部的發言人也在幫他說話，說新北市、臺北市都在做，像臺南市也在做，但你說過了嘛，人潮分析沒有辦法完全去識別性的，像是有多少人去、魯明哲有沒有去過，你不能知道，對不對？這個部分，所以他講的兩件事情都是透過手機的訊號，而且他在佐證他講的是對的，人家最新的發展是什麼、昨天的發展是什麼？這麼多人幫他說話欸！我看到民進黨的吳思瑤委員昨天也幫他說話，說我們幹嘛要開今天的會議啊？這也是新北市、臺北市都在做的一般的人潮分析啊！昨天才說完，昨天晚上王義川就把他打臉了，怎麼打臉？你沒有看到，昨天他又上節目了，他說：我沒有資料啦！我只要看人、看直播、看影片，我到現場用膝蓋想就知道了！我告訴你，這不是打臉我們，而是打臉那些之前幫他擋子彈的他的同事，我覺得這真的非常非常扯。","現在我覺得很奇怪，所以我剛剛問中華電信說，你們大數據到底可不可以追溯？現在你說資料沒有外流，現在有多少家坊間的，不管是顧問公司或是做這個行業的，跟你們有契約關係？因為政府不會跟你直接拿這個資料，他也沒辦法分析啦！都是發包給一個單位，那個單位就是市場上的公司，臺灣大約有多少家在做這樣的生意？"],["郭董事長水義：市場上有關商業分析、大數據的應用分析，合法的……"],["魯委員明哲：大約、大約。"],["郭董事長水義：我沒有特別去統計。"],["魯委員明哲：我建議你，這個事情剛剛法務部也說了正在查，很多訊息我建議你要跟你所有的廠商確認，看他們有沒有這方面的數據？我也建議你再下一個層級，跟你簽約的廠商做確認，看有沒有任何人提供類似的資料給王先生，這個部分我是建議你趕快去做。"],["郭董事長水義：好。"],["魯委員明哲：法務部黃次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：黃次長，我們最近看到兩件事，我覺得滿感慨的，第一是看到你們的通保法在5月9日送到立法院來要修法，修法的原因是為了你們要查一些大案，但有需要用到網路的流量，所以你們在第三條之一還定義，要增修網路流量是什麼，講得很清楚，然後重點是，如果可以通過修法，要怎麼調閱這些資料呢？還要經過法院，要法院同意耶！所以這很嚴重，我覺得你們這樣太辛苦，我建議直接問王大哥，他直接就知道了，他什麼都知道，不然你們還要修法修個半天，每一個個案弄了半天，還要法院核完之後，我跟你講，現在有人就知道了。我請問一下，這個案子已經在進行他字案了嗎？是不是？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有錯。"],["魯委員明哲：準備查了吧？"],["黃次長謀信：檢察官在5月29日分案之後就已經在積極的進行偵查。"],["魯委員明哲：證據保全了沒有？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，不好意思，因為證據保全涉及到檢察官的偵查步驟，我這邊就不……第一個，我也不知道，我也不可能在這邊透露他的……"],["魯委員明哲：不是啦！不要到最後他字案等於是一塊遮羞布而已，弄完之後什麼也沒有。就簡單來講，這些手機、這些資訊、大數據都是可能刪除瞬間去處理的，他到底跟誰通訊？我現在是推論，但這有可能是事實喔！在這種事實之下，有民眾檢舉了，我覺得證據保全，包括中華電信，它大數據中心到底有沒有跟人家來來往往？相關的一些單位，我覺得你們要去做證據保全，不然等最後要啟動的時候，事實上什麼東西都不見了，所以我是給你建議，證據保全是查一個案子的最基本啦！接下來請數發部。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：部長，其實那一天你拜會我時，我也跟你談過這件事，你覺得以現在的技術，可不可以做到我們王大哥，就以前的老大哥所說的這種情況？就是三個活動誰有去、誰沒去，是不是同樣的人，你覺得技術上可以做到嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：剛剛有解釋過，這個資料散在不同系統，技術上可行，但實務上會相當耗時，而且需要法規允許，所以在行政面上、在時間上，可能需要……"],["魯委員明哲：黃部長，說真的，這個技術含量非常低，只要你把個人資料全部給我，我用Excel索引一下，就知道誰幾歲，關鍵點就在於當他沒有提供這些資料，完全沒有這些資料時，如果現在技術可以發展到他哪個活動有去、哪個活動沒去，這是蠻可怕的，表示在四、五個月前在凱道的時候，就有人做了完整的紀錄，有了明確紀錄，才可以跟後面的比較。"],["黃部長彥男：委員，細部系統的資料，我想郭董事長比較清楚。"],["魯委員明哲：好，郭董？"],["郭董事長水義：跟委員報告，中華電信的系統一切合法合遵，我們系統上沒有這樣一個所謂三個不同時間點的交叉比對功能……"],["魯委員明哲：沒有嘛！"],["郭董事長水義：第二，最重要的是它是一個去識別化的資料，而且是輪廓性分析，所以沒有辦法比對某一天立法院我有來、沒有來，改天……"],["魯委員明哲：所以就中華電信立場，你是三大業者……"],["郭董事長水義：中華電信沒有。"],["魯委員明哲：有人在節目上說他用手機訊號比對，你覺得他的說法是什麼？請你給個評價。"],["郭董事長水義：我不方便評論。"],["魯委員明哲：不方便評論？那是不是胡說八道？你不好意思講？其實這個事情發展到現在，如果是真的，我是持保留態度，但萬一是真的，我覺得真的很恐怖，這不光是人民遭到可能的監控，還是對政黨活動的政治偵防，這是一個比想像還要嚴重非常多的情況。","NCC陳主委，我覺得一個機關、一個機構的首長，其實很多責任都要負，當然我們自己做錯事情我們自己要負責，但如果是我們的下屬，假設你的處長在外面亂說、亂講，或做錯一些事情，你也難免跑不掉要負一些責任，你說對不對？剛剛新就任的數發部部長，如果你的次長在外面亂說或者犯錯，你覺得你要不要負一點責任？可能也要嘛！對不對？我就請教一下，除了這些機關之外，我覺得很奇怪，我們賴總統剛上任，那他對這件事的立場、說法到底是什麼？我們只看到他5月25號針對青鳥活動發了一個很感動的文，我有特別注意，其中紅字是最重要的部分，他說：更重要的是人民的基本權利需要受到保護，不能任意侵犯。人民的基本權利需要受到保護，不能任意侵犯。他在5月25號發文，結果一天之後，王大哥就上臺講了這些話，賴總統應該出來講講話嘛！因為你最關心的人民基本權利，已經正在被監控、正在被侵犯，所以這部分我覺得很奇怪啊！","再來，剛剛說如果你們的下屬或主管出了什麼錯，你們都難逃一些責任，包括政治責任，那就奇怪了，王義川不是路人甲欸！他是民進黨政策會執行長，是黨務一級主管，他上面除了秘書長就是主席，我的天吶！各個機關的員工可能犯錯，你們都會覺得有點不好意思，主管犯錯，也要出來幫忙做個說明，就是這樣嘛！所以賴總統，請你出來說說話！賴主席，你的黨務主管在節目上講這樣讓人民憂心的事情，請你出來面對！黨務主管做這樣的事情，如果都不用面對，囫圇吞棗就過去的話，那要怎麼弄？陳主委，這個案子要怎麼處罰？最近我們龍介兄大概也是類似情況，被罰60萬，那現在這個是什麼狀況？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：剛才林國成委員有當場具名檢舉，我們會依照後續的相關……"],["魯委員明哲：不是早就檢舉了？我先確認一下，今天是6月幾號？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：今天是6月3號。"],["魯委員明哲：6月3號，所以是6月3號早上第一次接到這個案子的檢舉？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，有6件了，今天這件是第7件。"],["魯委員明哲：主委，說真的啦！不管你7月走不走或怎麼樣，我是不知道啦！但拜託一下，不要在這邊亂扯嘛！你不要……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我沒有亂扯啊！"],["魯委員明哲：你幹嘛跟林國成委員說：委員，你要不要現在檢舉？你檢舉我就辦。早就有人檢舉了，同樣的事情，還需要再檢舉嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，沒有，是林國成委員剛才當場具名檢舉，我是回答……"],["魯委員明哲：我知道嘛！之前有沒有人檢舉？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有，6件。"],["魯委員明哲：最早幾月幾號檢舉？來，最早的？"],["林處長慧玲：應該是5月29號。"],["魯委員明哲：對嘛！所以今天林國成委員檢不檢舉都沒有關係，因為已經有人檢舉了，好不好？有人說立委也沒有多大，我也認同，我們平常大家就要檢舉，一般民眾檢舉就是檢舉，那你現在辦到什麼程度？你現在瞭解清楚嗎？所有證據都很清楚嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：關於這部分，第一，我們先調查通訊資料的部分，所以請三大電信業者來說明。第二，有沒有落實事實查證的部分，我們會以所謂的調帶來處理，然後意見陳述來處理這個議題，依照法定程序去處理。"],["魯委員明哲：這個罰60萬，你罰中天、龍介兄在節目上講說是不是有監控，你當時的理由，我最後念完就算了，你主要的理由是，因為主持人未進一步詢問跟進行事實查證，嚴重誤導民眾因參與政治活動致通訊資料遭蒐集，造成個人資料外洩的恐慌，損及民眾對於國家保障人民秘密通訊自由……等等，這是你在那一年給中天的60萬罰單內容，現在情況一模一樣，甚至看起來是有過之而無不及，我們希望查案的速度快一點，希望你針對媒體類似情況的時候，能夠快速瞭解、解決問題，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝魯明哲委員的發言。","下面請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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怎麼打臉 沒有看到 昨天他又上節目了 他說"},{"start":232.267,"end":258.148,"text":"我沒有資料啦我沒有資料啦那我只要看人、看直播、看影片我到現場用膝蓋想就知道了我告訴你這不是打臉我們啦這之前幫他所有擋子彈的那些他的同志我覺得這真的非常非常扯所以我是現在我覺得很奇怪所以中華電信剛剛問你你大數據到底可不可以追溯那你現在你說"},{"start":259.64,"end":260.761,"text":"大約我沒有特別去統計"},{"start":289.358,"end":290.138,"text":"法務部黃智長"},{"start":315.753,"end":316.394,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":334.048,"end":353.551,"text":"所以你們在31條還定義要徵修了王榮亮是什麼講得很清楚然後呢重點如果可以通過修法怎麼要調閱這些資料呢還要經過法院要法院同意耶所以這很嚴重但我是建議你們太辛苦了直接問王大哥你知道嗎"},{"start":353.891,"end":356.592,"text":"檢察官在5月29日犯案之後他就已經在積極的進行偵查了證據保全了沒有"},{"start":378.141,"end":404.102,"text":"報告委員這證據保全這個是社交檢查官的偵查步驟我這邊就第一個我也不知道我也不可能在這邊透露他的不是啊不要到最後這個什麼他自然是一個等於說車修部而已弄完之後什麼也沒有就簡單來講嘛這在手機這些資訊大數據都是可能刪除瞬間去處理的他到底跟誰通訊我因為我現在是推論這有可能是事實喔我有可能是事實喔"},{"start":404.482,"end":431.29,"text":"那在這種事實之下有民眾檢舉了我覺得證據保全包括中華電信他大數據中心到底有沒有跟他來來往往啊相關的一些單位我覺得你們要去做一個證據保全不然到最後你們等最要啟動的時候事實上什麼東西都不見了所以我就給你建議啦我希望證據保全事實上查一個案子的最基本那接下來束縛阿姆"},{"start":434.842,"end":450.431,"text":"其實那天你有拜會我也跟你談過這件事嘛你覺得現在技術上可不可以做到我們王大哥啦以前老大哥嘛王大哥他所說的這種情況三個活動誰有去誰被去是不是同樣的人這個你覺得在技術上可以做到嗎"},{"start":450.931,"end":452.332,"text":"副部長,說真的啦,這個技術的含量非常低啦"},{"start":472.625,"end":497.642,"text":"好不好,只要你資料給我啦,個人資料全部給我,我只要索引一下就知道誰幾歲了所以關鍵點這技術的,就是說當他沒有提供這些資料,完全沒有這些資料那現在技術可以發展到哪一個活動去哪個活動沒去,這是蠻可怕的表示在四五個月前在凱道的時候就已經做了完整的紀錄有明確的紀錄才可以跟後面來比較的"},{"start":498.382,"end":523.037,"text":"我以為那個細部的那個系統的資料我想那個我們郭董事長比較清楚我目前報告中華電信的系統上的一切合法合遵我們在系統上沒有這樣的一個所謂的三個不同的時間點交叉比對這種功能沒有嗎那第二最重要的是它是一個去識別化而且是輪廓性分析所以沒有辦法去比對說某一天今天立法院我有來沒有來"},{"start":524.887,"end":535.493,"text":"所以你就一個中華電信的立場你是三大業者那有人在節目上說他用手機訊號去比對你覺得他的說法是什麼你說給個評價我不方便評論那是不是胡說八道不好意思講"},{"start":547.199,"end":570.275,"text":"其實這個事情發展到現在如果這個是真的我現在是保留是這樣我覺得萬一是真的真的很恐怖這不光是一個這個人民遭到可能的一個監控第二個勒還對政黨的活動這是政黨的一個增防政治增防這是一個說真的比想像還要嚴重非常多的一個情況那我覺得今天那NCC這個"},{"start":572.422,"end":600.936,"text":"陳主委我覺得一個機關一個機構我們是首長其實很多責任都要負但我們自己做錯事情我們自己要負我們下屬假設你的處長在外面亂說亂講或做錯一些事情你也難免跑不掉一些責任你就說對不對剛剛我們這個新的我們速發部部長如果你的次長在外面亂說或者犯錯你覺得你要不要負一點責任可能也要嘛對不對那我就要請教一下"},{"start":602.216,"end":618.132,"text":"我就請教一下這個因為其實現在應該是除了這些機關之外我就覺得很奇怪我們賴總統剛上任那他對這件事的立場到底說法"},{"start":619.073,"end":640.343,"text":"到底是什麼?因為我們只看到他5月25日針對於青鳥活動發一個很感動的文我特別注意其中洪志最重要的他說更重要的是人民的基本權利需要受到保護不能任意侵犯人民的基本權利需要受到保護不能任意侵犯"},{"start":641.414,"end":668.306,"text":"他在525發文欸就一天之後王大哥就上台去講了所以賴總統出來講講話嘛因為你最關心的人的基本權利已經正在被監控正在欺販所以我覺得這個部分很奇怪啊再來今天唯一沒到的另外你們剛剛講說如果你的下屬你的主管如果出了什麼錯你們都難逃一些的不管是政治責任也好"},{"start":670.291,"end":696.857,"text":"欸這奇怪啊王玉川不是路人甲欸他是民進黨政策會的執行長是一級的主管他是黨務的主管他上面除了秘書長就是主席啊我的天啊你們各個機關我們的員工可能犯錯你都會覺得有點不好意思我們的主管犯錯你要出來幫忙去做一個說明就是這樣嘛到現在賴總統請你出來說說話"},{"start":699.585,"end":713.507,"text":"賴主席你的黨務主管在節目上講這樣的讓人民憂心的事情請你出來面對黨務主管做這樣的事情如果都不用面對胡亂吞早就過去的話那怎麼去弄"},{"start":714.721,"end":714.961,"text":"今天是6月幾號"},{"start":736.004,"end":764.816,"text":"今天是6月3日6月3日?所以是6月3日早上第一次接到這個案子的檢舉嗎?沒有,我們...6件,有6件了主委說真的啦不管你是7月走不走或怎麼樣我是不知道啦,拜託一下好不好不要在這邊亂扯嘛我說,我只問一下你幹嘛跟林國城委員說委員你要不要現在檢舉,你檢舉我就辦找錯人檢舉了,同樣的案子你還叫他檢舉嗎?是剛才林國城委員當場具名檢舉我知道嘛,之前有沒有人檢舉?"},{"start":765.996,"end":767.117,"text":"最早幾月幾號檢舉?來,最早的?最早的?對嘛"},{"start":776.437,"end":802.642,"text":"所以今天跟李國琛委員檢不檢舉已經有人檢舉了好不好我覺得立委有人說立委也沒有多大我也認為嘛我們平常就是大家就要檢舉一般的民眾檢舉就是檢舉了你到底辦到怎麼樣你現在現在了解清楚嗎我覺得所有的身份都很清楚第一個先調查這個通訊這個資料的部分我們請上到電視業者來嘛那第二個來講的話這個有沒有落實事實查證的部分我們會請那個所謂的那個"},{"start":805.492,"end":821.959,"text":"我們吊債來處理然後意見陳述去處理這個議題依照法定程序去處理我希望齁這個罰60萬嘛齁你罰中天龍雀雄在上面講說是不是有監控的你當時的理由我最後念完就算了齁他說這邊你主要的理由齁"},{"start":823.099,"end":846.811,"text":"主持人為進一步詢問跟進行事實查證嚴重誤導民眾因參與政治活動至通訊資料遭收集造成個人資料外洩的恐慌損及民眾對於國家保障人民秘密通訊自由等等這是你在那一年"},{"start":847.651,"end":847.671,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}