{"error":false,"id":["153455"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153455,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153455","日期":"2024-06-03","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-03T10:46:37+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-03T10:53:48+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:11","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c7072fca801e25372c0c59c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0c3aac5e6b56f0ec5f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"10:46:37 - 10:53:48","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（10時46分）謝謝主席。我們請NCC。"],["主席：NCC陳主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：主委，請教你，現在針對個人、不是官方的，其實我們認為請個人來不適合啦，不過我們要整體去思考官方在處理事情的時候到底有什麼原則，符不符合社會的期待，所以針對用大數據去瞭解整個社群的動態，這個在法上是合法的，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，跟委員報告一下，我們在討論個資和數據，其實應該有一點區別，個資去識別化、不可回溯以後，它就會變Big Data的一種，Big Data就是數位經濟、數位產業在運用上非常重要的基礎資料。"],["許委員智傑：好，這個在個人資料保護法我們都有提到。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["許委員智傑：另外，其實電信公司在跟個人簽約的時候，這裡有一款是「用戶個人資料蒐集、處理與利用之限制及條件」，也就是說，你在簽電信契約的時候，通常都會簽，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有。"],["許委員智傑：你可以用來做資料蒐集、處理跟利用，有它的限制跟條件，這個也是合法啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對、對、對！"],["許委員智傑：不過，這一次像青鳥行動，有一些年輕人會覺得說我會不會被調查，會不會洩漏到我的個資？再以我們官方或者是電信公司的講法都是說：我會給你去識別化，你放心啦！但是事實上，人民就是不放心嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然。"],["許委員智傑：所以我的主張是說，可不可以要求在簽這個契約的時候，比如在第七款「用戶個人資料蒐集、處理與利用之限制及條件」，這個我們都懂，但是人民可能會擔心，你可不可以把「去識別化」加進去？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果要修改，因為第一、委員所講的是電信管理法第十七條的規定，如果有必要的話，我們未來在這種行動寬頻服務契約中把它要求得更清楚，應該是可以去處理。"],["許委員智傑：對，所以我的意思就是說，NCC是不是能夠跟各大電信公司聯絡？我使用你這個資料，如果做大數據是合法的，我們都會口頭講說：你放心，我們都會去識別化，但是這個口頭講的有時候人民在擔心的情況之下，如果你把「去識別化」標明在上面，就代表：你放心，我不可能將個別資料洩漏出去，這個部分如果在條文、在契約裡面有加註這些，我相信人民的不信任感，或覺得個人資料有可能被侵害的情況，那種心態就可以減少，所以這個部分是不是請主委及NCC能夠跟這些電信公司做一個整體的溝通？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：可以、是。"],["許委員智傑：然後把「去識別化」的字白紙黑字寫到裡面去，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，這本來就可以。"],["許委員智傑：雖然我們會覺得大家都會這麼做，但是為了減少疑慮、為了減少不信任，我們就直接把它標註在裡面，這個應該沒問題吧？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，我們找電信業者來討論相關的契約範本要怎麼去修改的問題。"],["許委員智傑：OK！這個應該不用兩個月嘛！不用一個半月？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：還是給我們兩個月……"],["許委員智傑：兩個月你卸任了，我希望你卸任前把它完成。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：兩個月，差不多啦，大概差不多……"],["許委員智傑：現在是6月初嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，6月初。"],["許委員智傑：主委7月底卸任嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對、對、對。"],["許委員智傑：7月底替人民再做一件有意義的事。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，我們馬上去處理，我們儘快來處理，不過委員還是給我們兩個月的時間好不好？我們馬上處理。"],["許委員智傑：兩個月你就卸任了，再一個半月。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我卸任了，還有其他的主委。"],["許委員智傑：沒關係，我是覺得你就做一件功德。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，沒問題。"],["許委員智傑：卸任前讓人民知道，你在處理所有的大數據的時候，電信公司也有白紙黑字證明一定會去識別化，所以這部分以後人民就可以少掉這些疑慮。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，避免疑慮。"],["許委員智傑：對啊！你看這些例子，像臺灣燈會在臺中，盧秀燕他們也會去統計所有來參加燈會的人，包括新北耶誕城、臺北跨年晚會，這個人流分析都很正常，對不對？不是針對個人，而是整體來這邊的人的背景、來這邊的年齡層、來這邊的狀況，他們都可以提供大數據做分析。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，我們稱之為輪廓性的資料，比如說20到40、40到60，這樣年紀、性別或是背景等輪廓性的資料是可以的。"],["許委員智傑：這個其實都是合法可以做分析，合法可以去買的嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，沒錯。"],["許委員智傑：今天如果我許智傑個人有興趣，我也可以去跟電信公司說我要買你們這一部分的大數據資料。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，不過就我瞭解，現在電信公司通常還是商業用途，如果有政治性的，他們比較會有疑慮。"],["許委員智傑：商業用途完全沒有疑慮，政治性的他們會考量？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他們會考量這個數據要不要……"],["許委員智傑：如果去識別化，我是覺得不管誰去買都是屬於商業。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯，所以比如說……"],["許委員智傑：比如我個人想要瞭解臺灣燈會，我個人想要瞭解臺北市跨年晚會的人流分析。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以他們很難做區別。"],["許委員智傑：這沒有什麼政治性，這是我個人想要瞭解，你有做這個大數據的分析，我就花錢買嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯，這個在做公共政策上是很大的用途。"],["許委員智傑：所以這個應該讓國人很清楚，大數據的部分只要你是用商業的角度，誰都可以去買，而且誰去買的資料都完全100%去識別化，你放心，這樣子大家就很清楚啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["許委員智傑：這個部分希望主委7月底前能夠把這件事情完成。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["許委員智傑：7月底前如果再有質詢的機會，如果沒有的話也把結果給我辦公室。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們會用書面來跟委員會回復。"],["許委員智傑：就是說這一個部分我們已經很確實白紙黑字改過了，我覺得這個真的是一件功德，讓人民不用擔心，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝委員。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑委員的發言。下一位請陳素月委員發言，陳素月委員發言完畢以後我們處理臨時提案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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對不對對就是說跟委員報告一下其實我們在討論上個資還有數據其實應該做明也有點區別了個資去識別化以後不可回溯以後它就會變Big Data的一種那Big Data就是我們數位經濟數位產業在運用的一個非常重要的基礎資料"},{"start":73.3,"end":98.74,"text":"好,那這個在個人資料保護法這個我們都有提到是那另外就是說其實電信公司在跟個人簽約的時候這裡有一條是說用戶個人資料收集在底下那一條處理或利用的限制跟條件對也就是說你在簽這個電信的契約的時候通常都會簽嘛對不對有"},{"start":99.821,"end":112.953,"text":"那你可以用來做資料收集處理跟利用他有他的限制跟條件那這個也是合法啦那不過這一次像青鳥行動那有一些年輕人還會覺得說我會被"},{"start":116.255,"end":136.711,"text":"會被調查那會不會洩漏到我的個資那在以我們的官方或者是電信公司的講法是說我都會跟你去世別番你放心啦但是事實上人民就是不放心嘛當然所以我的主張是說可不可以要求在簽這個契約的時候比如說在這個第7條是"},{"start":138.112,"end":164.925,"text":"用戶個人資料收集處理及利用之限制條件這個是我們都懂但是人民可能會擔心那你可不可以把這個去識別化把它加進去如果要修改因為第一個委員所講是電信管理第17條這個規定那如果有必要的話我們在未來這種行動寬頻的服務契約把它要求得更清楚應該是可以去處理所以我的意思就是NCC能夠跟各大電信公司聯絡就是說"},{"start":167.401,"end":193.287,"text":"我使用你這個資料如果做大數據是合法的我們都會口頭講說你放心我們都會去世別化但是這個口頭講的有時候人民在擔心的情況之下如果你把它去世別化就把它標明在上面嘛你放心嘛我就不可能個別資料給你寫到出去這樣那這個部分如果有加注這些在條文裡面在契約裡面我相信人民的那一個"},{"start":194.696,"end":214.572,"text":"我覺得不信任感或覺得有可能個人資料被侵害的心態就可以減少所以這個部分是不是請主委能夠我們NCC能夠跟這些電信公司做一個整體的溝通然後把這個去識別化的字白紙黑字把它寫到裡面去"},{"start":215.862,"end":216.102,"text":"這個應該不用兩個月嗎?"},{"start":238.602,"end":257.712,"text":"不用一個半月我希望你卸任前把它完成現在是六月初嘛主委七月底卸任嘛七月底替人民再做一件有意義的事我們是馬上去處理我們盡快來處理還是給我們兩個月的時間好不好我們就去處理啦兩個月你就卸任啦"},{"start":264.235,"end":264.515,"text":"臺灣燈會在台中"},{"start":292.734,"end":305.703,"text":"如秀苑他們有去統計嗎?是。我來這邊的人所有的來參加燈會包括新北耶誕城包括台北跨年晚會這個人流分析都很正常。是。對不對?我的背景資料"},{"start":307.031,"end":331.28,"text":"整體的來這邊的背景、來這邊的年齡層、來這邊的狀況他們都可以提供大數據做分析嗎?我們稱之為叫輪廓性的資料就是說比如說20到40、40到60年紀、性別或是一個背景的輪廓性的資料是可以的這個其實都是合法可以做分析、合法可以去買的"},{"start":333.221,"end":349.617,"text":"所以就是說我今天如果我個人有興趣我許智傑個人有興趣我也可以去跟電信公司說我要買你們這一部分的大數據的資料不過現在電信公司就了解來講他們通常還是商業用途的如果比較有正式性的他們比較會有疑慮的"},{"start":351.523,"end":362.77,"text":"商業用途完全沒有疑慮政治性的他們會考量其實如果是你去識別化去識別化我是覺得"},{"start":364.366,"end":382.747,"text":"不管誰去買都是屬於商業嘛對所以說比如說我個人想要了解台灣燈會我個人想要了解台北市跨年晚會的人流的分析是是是所以他們很難做區別因為這沒有什麼政治性嘛這是我個人想要了解嘛那你有做這個大數據的分析我就花錢買嘛"},{"start":383.348,"end":400.358,"text":"沒錯 這個做公共政策上是很大的用途所以應該 這個讓國人很清楚就是說你只要是大數據的部分只要是你用商業的角度誰都可以去買而且誰去買的資料都完全100%去識別犯你放心"},{"start":401.418,"end":428.462,"text":"這樣子大家就很清楚啦所以這個部分希望說主委就是7月底前能夠把這件事情完成你7月底前那個是不是不管是如果再有質詢的機會如果沒有的話也把那個結果給我辦公室我們會用書面來跟那個委員會就是說這一個部分我們已經很確實白石爺是改過了我覺得這個真的是一件功德讓人民不用擔心嘛"},{"start":429.062,"end":430.01,"text":"好不好?好,謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}