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同步上師所屬學校的學籍,以致影響學生報考的意願。"},{"start":2688.2,"end":2715.177,"text":"國防學士班與ROTC班隊比較說明,國防學士班及ROTC學生在學期間,均由國防部全額補助學雜費,每月發給生活費一萬兩千元及每學期文具費五千元,並合約每年撥付合作大學招生作業費,如符合開設教育中心,則再支付辦班作業費及人員委辦費。國防學士班與ROTC班隊分析比較如下表。"},{"start":2716.623,"end":2741.312,"text":"兩種班對主要的差異在招生緣額上國防學士班是由各合作大學獨立招生每校緣額失緣為113年將停止招生ROTC則依各單位需求訂定招生緣額113年招生緣額為400元在招生對象上國防學士班招收高中值應屆畢業生ROTC所招募的則是大學一年級的學生"},{"start":2742.694,"end":2757.383,"text":"在學籍上,國防學士班退訓學生將上司學校的學籍,而ROTC退訓學生仍保有學校學籍,請過次業。在畢業派職上,國防學士班優先以專業領域派職,ROTC則是以戰鬥及戰鬥資源官科派職為主。"},{"start":2762.867,"end":2772.812,"text":"至於在議期方面兩者都是服預備軍官議期五年在補助經費方面有關補助項目及金額兩者均相同相關資料請委員參閱"},{"start":2775.134,"end":2791.89,"text":"今統計國防學士班一百零八至一百一十二年即支付經費一千六百七十八萬元若明年停止招生後因應再訓學生及教育中心開班仍需支付一千零七十三萬元有關國防學士班補助經費統計如下表請參閱軍校政綺班及專業軍官班隊招生成效"},{"start":2800.751,"end":2820.856,"text":"上述三種招生管道近五年平均招貨率均達招募目標﹐將持續強化招生以補充出關人力需求。各軍官班對108至102年招生成效統計如下表,其中軍校正期班平均招貨率達103%,ROTC平均招貨率達135%,專業預備軍官班招貨率達109%,後續作為"},{"start":2830.938,"end":2850.131,"text":"經評估國防學士班招生成效及投資效益均無法滿足需求明年起將停辦各大學在校學生均可經由大學儲備軍官訓練團招生管道加入國軍行列二、國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為"},{"start":2851.815,"end":2872.441,"text":"國防部秉持目標管理、節點管制的原則﹐持續要求各單位致力於完善招募編組﹐深耕校園與林理宣傳﹐運用媒體宣傳及擴大招募宣導等精進作為﹐其藉深入校園林理及媒體宣傳等多元招募管道穩定人力的來源與素質﹐皆予請參閱。"},{"start":2878.239,"end":2905.473,"text":"繼續就《國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條修正案》實施報告大院黨團及委員提案《國防產業發展條例》以下稱本條例第十條及第十九條修正案說明如下一、立法目的為有效結合政府與民間力量發展國防產業達成國內研發產製維修武器裝備之目標以落實國防自主特制定本條例"},{"start":2907.079,"end":2931.497,"text":"二、大院黨團及委員提案現行國防法規定武器裝備向外採購時應落實技術轉移另外提升及滿足國家防衛需求應強化國防產業國際合作並積極採用靈活多元供應策略避免居需關鍵零組件和原料來源遭受壟斷原修正本條例第十條及第十九條黨團及委員提案內容如下"},{"start":2933.717,"end":2962.062,"text":"中國國民黨黨團提案將本條例第十條第一項修正為主管機關及經濟部,應鼓勵外國廠商與合格廠商進行產業合作與相互投資,並落實技術轉移。修正委的二十二位委員提案修正本條例第十條及第十九條條文,其中第十條第一項修正為主管機關及經濟部,應鼓勵外國廠商與合格廠商進行產業合作與相互投資,並落實技術轉移。"},{"start":2964.98,"end":2986.386,"text":"第十九條第一項修正為列管軍品研發、產製、維修之關鍵零組件及原料不得來自大陸地區、香港、港澳或其人民、法人、團體、其他機構與第三地區投資之法人、機構或團體但因特殊需要經主管機關會商、相關機關同意者不在此限。三、國防部意見"},{"start":2988.41,"end":3010.211,"text":"一、第十條第一項國民黨黨團及邱志偉等22位委員均提案於第十條第一項增加落實技術轉移文字查本條例第二條第二項規定主辦機關為國防部、經濟部及國科會同時為強化國防自主能量提升產業技術已於國防法明定落實記者之規範"},{"start":3011.397,"end":3029.957,"text":"令本條例主辦機關經濟部亦以產業發展的角度協助廠商爭取國際合作商機並配合工業合作需求促請外商與國內業者推動整體的合作有鑒於現行的法制面與執行面具有涵蓋產業合作及技術移轉相關工作推動並無摯愛,原建議維持現行條文"},{"start":3034.025,"end":3047.342,"text":"而第十九條第一項,邱志偉等二十二位委員提案將原文經主管機關會商其他主辦機關同意者修正為經主管機關會商相關機關同意者"},{"start":3048.786,"end":3071.645,"text":"由於本條例主辦機關之一的經濟部長理貨品輸出路管理及貿易安全管控等事項有關軍需關鍵零組件及原料產地來源限制之例外規定如因特殊需要需向陸港澳進行採購經本部會商經濟部及國科會由經濟部依進出口貿易管理權責徵詢貨品業管部會意見後來辦理審查"},{"start":3075.448,"end":3085.512,"text":"現行作法有助於事權統一及簡化廠商申請作業流程,原建議維持現行條文,皆予請參閱。以上報告,敬請各位委員知道。"},{"start":3104.586,"end":3123.114,"text":"現在我們開始詢答本委員會的委員詢答時間6加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分以前發言截止登記然後提案的也是10點30分截止登記11點處理提案那現在先請林昶佐委員詢答"},{"start":3131.943,"end":3132.665,"text":"感謝主席。我們請部長。請"},{"start":3143.815,"end":3162.443,"text":"部長早安那我想關於今天的題目裡面比較考古題的也就是過去其實在委員會裡面還有在審預算的時候我們常常討論到的都是邊線筆啦那邊線筆這一題其實我也跟部長舊教討論過幾次那原則上當然邊線筆的概念就是說這個"},{"start":3165.204,"end":3189.003,"text":"提高流營率、減少不適服這大概就是這兩個重點所以我們這幾年可以看得到在招募率上面已經有提高所以這幾年以來我相信部內的重點也都是怎麼讓少一點人離開所以根據國防部內部的調查評估來講這種流營率跟不適服的部分部長覺得最主要的一些原因是什麼?"},{"start":3190.08,"end":3205.355,"text":"我跟委員報告,很感謝委員對這個問題關切。事實上國軍在招募工作方面一直沒有停止過,而且這幾年招募成效也還蠻不錯的。但我們只要把人留下來,但有些人他到服役完了以後,他一樣要離開。"},{"start":3206.676,"end":3227.853,"text":"大概都是他有他第二道路規劃好的,要離開。所以我們當然要去講說軍中這個等於團體工作,不管從待遇、從福利或平常他應該享有的權益,我們都在檢討、在強化。這幾年在這一方面進展很大。"},{"start":3228.553,"end":3248.344,"text":"但是我們也了解,大部分的原因他離開的,都是他另外有下這個規劃。有些提前離開的,但是他發覺他的環境適應不良。但從這幾方面我們可以得到一個定論,但是我們這個招募工作不會停歇。當然當然,招募我想這個是一個基本的工作。"},{"start":3250.025,"end":3268.064,"text":"我為什麼會就這一題拿出來跟部長再討論一下因為我看到其實通常我們國防部提供的報告都還是比較廣泛性的政策那我有看到這幾年其實有一個研究的統計它是有就階級或地區跟部隊來看說這個流盈率的一些差別"},{"start":3268.464,"end":3286.467,"text":"例如說階級裡面上兵的流行率最低,地區裡面的話大概是外島最低,部隊裡面大概是裝甲跟炮兵部隊較低。原因當然每一個人可能會見仁見智,這一個報告裡面有寫,我們有看到有一些討論裡面就有不一樣的原因,但是"},{"start":3287.768,"end":3309.455,"text":"就剛剛的這三點來講的話大概上兵最低是有提到說可能是工作內容的重複性太高那裝甲炮兵可能是因為是主戰部隊所以他工作跟訓練內容比較重那其他還有一些細節所以我其實是想跟部長建議啦齁這個其實都是在做研究的人他的看法"},{"start":3309.835,"end":3329.358,"text":"當然我相信如果我們今天真的是就這個階級地域部隊交叉分析的話,我相信部內應該會掌握到更精準的。對,那包括可以做一些調查等等。所以這個部分不知道部長本來就有在做嗎?還是說未來其實可以朝這個方向在做比較細緻,而不只是廣泛性的這個流營的提升?"},{"start":3329.798,"end":3344.691,"text":"國防委員報告,這個工作我們一直在做,譬如說我們在主戰兵力部隊,他平常工作各方面的確比較辛苦。就拿我個人來講好了,我也是一個戰鬥兵科的成員,從基層到目前,我對當初在基層"},{"start":3345.992,"end":3360.444,"text":"不同單位主戰的跟預備的或者跟後勤的都有差別所以主戰部隊這幾年為什麼我們各方面都給他做一個強化包含地域家級他的兵科有這種特種家級專業家級"},{"start":3362.325,"end":3363.206,"text":"一部分可能是薪資、福利的問題"},{"start":3379.155,"end":3379.235,"text":"二、審查本院"},{"start":3404.445,"end":3424.582,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":3424.702,"end":3442.239,"text":"然後第二個部分其實我想也就這個機會跟部長討論一下五年兵力整建計畫因為我們其實每一年都會有一本新的五年兵力整建計畫我也想就這個機會跟部長稍微討論因為時間有限我把我看到這兩年的一個改變"},{"start":3444.057,"end":3467.12,"text":"我稍微覺得就是我們把一些原則性的東西跟我們明年想要做的事情就把它提早拿來做紀念寫因為其實去年有一段是說以遠距精準機動之作戰需求原則強化防衛韌性組織與打亂作戰節奏逐次削弱其泛談能力而無法速戰速決我想這個就是比較"},{"start":3468.201,"end":3488.603,"text":"我覺得這就是一個蠻清楚的一個原則性、策略性的一個描述就是說我們的這五年要做的一個方向是這樣那今年有一段我看到我特別看到因為我稍微比較就是說如果只是字面上的有一些修改知乎則也的修改那就沒有什麼關係但其實今年把這個"},{"start":3489.724,"end":3512.722,"text":"剛剛後面那一段取消,後面那一段的強化防衛韌性組織與打亂作戰節奏,逐次削弱其範圍能力而無法速戰速決,有一部分可能可以放在今年新的這個內容裡面,例如說強化作戰韌性,嚇阻敵之入侵,這幾句大概剛剛講的可能有一些可以放進去,但是我覺得"},{"start":3514.195,"end":3529.456,"text":"要讓對方無法速戰速決的這一句啊,它就是一個策略性的。它並不是只是一個句子上面的調整而已。那我們改成,今年改成是提升遠距、精準、機動、無人化及智慧。"},{"start":3531.156,"end":3554.479,"text":"這個部分反而是比較像是執行面比較像是細部的我個人會覺得是不是因為我們接著要採買尤其明年要籌建新的這個C4ISR的指管系統所以我們知道明年要買什麼那把它放在今年作為這個策略裡面描述我可以理解這樣做啦但其實我覺得不一定有這個必要因為我們拿掉這個速戰速決"},{"start":3556.67,"end":3563.971,"text":"我不太相信我們真的會有把這個策略性做一個大的調整反而會讓這個五年的兵力計畫"},{"start":3565.799,"end":3592.286,"text":"的這個宏觀性以及他五年的一個具體的一個大的方向上面把它變成縮小了變成好像只是我們明年要買什麼所以這部分我覺得是不是部長可以先稍微回應一下我跟委員報告我們國軍有十年現行共享五年兵力整建跟每一年都有一個備戰計畫他這個不講五年兵整我們就到五年才修每一年剛剛委員也點到每一年我們都在調"},{"start":3593.546,"end":3613.216,"text":"委員提出建議,我們也會把它納入以後調整的一個方向。但陳副綱委員有講到,很多執行面的問題,我們也希望講說今年既然講出來,我們的的確能做到。我想這個是我們目前比較特別、比較強化的地方,以後也會把握這個原則來做。"},{"start":3613.456,"end":3637.05,"text":"要不然就是說,隔年修改今年的東西裡面比較關於策略性的,例如說速戰速決不見了,是不是我們真的沒有要做這件事,這個就可以稍微再解釋一下,要不然就是把它怎麼融入新的描述裡,因為如果只是執行面或是字面上的一些調整,其實那個都沒有差嘛,那就是看你作文怎麼寫的差別而已,字句的差別,但如果有一個比較像是策略性的那一整句不見齁,"},{"start":3637.91,"end":3638.331,"text":"接下來請陳廷飛委員發言"},{"start":3665.455,"end":3668.277,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長。村委員好。部長好。部長,我想請問一下,就是說我們的伙食費,其實伙食費,說真的我們每年都是有調整,我們每年都有調整,可是那個幅度,"},{"start":3691.82,"end":3699.29,"text":"我今天要跟你討論的要麻煩部長就是說那個幅度我們物價其實這幾年真的飆漲的比較快"},{"start":3700.345,"end":3728.465,"text":"雖然每年都有調整我們現在基本上112年度每位士兵每個月的伙食費用大概是2913元也就每一個人平均一天的伙食費用是97.1一餐大約是32.3元這個是我從你們的數字裡面去分析出來的然後呢其實他每天的三餐吃得到的費用基本上"},{"start":3729.206,"end":3751.664,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":3751.764,"end":3776.775,"text":"我覺得大家在受訓當中這些我們的藝男說真的他們都是剛好又要受訓然後又在發育反正很多的狀況其實我想他是需要更多的一些補充所以這個部分雖然我必須強調我們每年都有調整"},{"start":3778.001,"end":3778.141,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":3795.084,"end":3820.075,"text":"這個思考的方向是,我很感激委員注意到這一塊事實上國軍的火稅一般聽到有一個月三千不到沒有錯九十多塊錢一百塊不到要吃三餐外面是難以想像的但國軍辦火燒有個要領我們第一個人員有多少人起火我們把他管制住可能有100個人的費用可能當天假日的時候只留了一半人"},{"start":3820.715,"end":3848.091,"text":"但這個錢一樣是投注在裡面的,這是第一個。第二個,我們工本費,就人員的運作費用啊,這可以節約。所以早期講說一些火防兵做支部隊服役的人,後來就好像強調不能這樣子,他這個服役歸服役,火防要從外包啊,所以這個錢就增加。但我們國民調整的方法說,剛剛委員講到逐年增加,再怎麼追追不到,但半火是個要領。"},{"start":3848.831,"end":3865.145,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":3865.145,"end":3867.806,"text":"現在目前的物價指數隨時去做調整"},{"start":3894.68,"end":3919.525,"text":"這樣子的家長也會比較安心一點所以這個部分再麻煩那第二個部分就是說我們現在兵役延長的配套還有準備現況現在準備的如何我跟委員報告去年從公佈以後設計公佈之前我有很多的專案編署已經編成了我跟他們講說你公告要一年落實明年1月1號開始但這一年當中"},{"start":3920.525,"end":3948.973,"text":"我們對各營區從住到訓這些場地都不斷地在那邊在檢查而且驗證那有些地方已經有教招部隊在那邊用了這將來也是我們這個要準備訓練當中的一環所以我跟委員報告在同步在做而且我們還蠻有把握就明年因為我們初步了解大概會招待九千多人而且第一季的大概將六百個左右"},{"start":3949.753,"end":3955.538,"text":"一月份我們要招收我們這些一年一期的這個新兵的部分第一批的部分你預計是多少人"},{"start":3973.194,"end":3989.692,"text":"大概600人左右那原本有一些營區我們可能本來是考慮到7月才要接這一年期的新兵但是有些營區好像往前提早了是不是那提前因為他平常也可以住用"},{"start":3990.421,"end":4013.92,"text":"沒有但是這個要比較小心的部分就是說因為如果在這個營區當中有四個月役期的兵有一年役期的兵我覺得這個部分我們要做一個調整我覺得一年役期的兵就歸一年役期的兵四個月役期的兵就歸四個月役期的兵因為這個他們的一個生活做起其實會有所不同"},{"start":4015.45,"end":4031.239,"text":"對,會有所不同。所以在作息有所不同的話,其實為了在大家整個在訓練過程會比較順遂,我覺得這個思考的邏輯一定要注意。這個是其實是我們在"},{"start":4032.299,"end":4058.148,"text":"當中聽很多的家長的建議就是說怎麼樣把未來因為我看了資料確實是好像有一些提早就是說有時候四年這個在訓練營區當中有四年四個月的這個一年一年的一年但他們在整個包括在訓練的作業其實是完全不同的"},{"start":4059.536,"end":4079.373,"text":"這個真的要提醒說怎麼樣把這個SOP做好那我的建議是就是一年因為我們營區其實就像部長所說的我們其實準備從我們開始決定要去延長一年疫情的時候我們就已經有做好一些準備了"},{"start":4079.974,"end":4109.974,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4110.154,"end":4135.849,"text":"最近好像有做調整好像在營區當中有做調整但我覺得還是有些比較不妥的地方因為我的調資料我有看到所以這個部分部長是不是有可能做一下這個重新的檢討把SOP訂好可能會讓我們的訓練會更完整讓所有藝男的整個心情調整會更好"},{"start":4136.189,"end":4164.586,"text":"所以我跟委員報一個很粗略去講說基本上明年開始入伍的時間原本四個月是五週嘛現在通通改成八週但以後訓完入伍以後呢到了營區裡面它是沒有分別是分開的一年一期的是一個單位四個月的還是其他分到各個單位去我們也避免啊比如委員剛剛講到幹部一帶有四個月的有一年的這帶法是不一樣的課目也不一樣"},{"start":4164.926,"end":4179.501,"text":"可是你在同一個營區沒錯你們現在的訓練有做分別制度的一個調整可是同樣在一個營區很難去做那麼完整的分別跟區隔"},{"start":4180.809,"end":4200.003,"text":"這個是我小小的提醒跟叮嚀應該你們自己也知道我在說什麼樣的一個部分因為你們都這樣一路這樣子從基層上來很清楚現在每一個藝能清理的想法還有家長所擔憂的部分所以我們所講包括剛剛這個伙食費的部分也是好多個家長因為家長會跟我們反映嘛說他們問小孩子習不習慣小孩子回來說"},{"start":4210.43,"end":4212.59,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":4241.681,"end":4245.364,"text":"謝謝陳委員。接下來請陳以信委員巡檔。謝謝昭偉。是不是請邱部長。邱部長請。"},{"start":4274.389,"end":4292.266,"text":"部長早安喔,你是陸軍出身嘛對不對?你知不知道AR-15的步槍?AR-15?那可能很早期的吧?很早期喔?那你有沒有用過?你沒打?這一款步槍,你知不知道這一款步槍一分鐘可以打多少子彈?"},{"start":4293.697,"end":4295.538,"text":"上個禮拜在美國總統的共和黨初選辯論裡面幾位總統候選人都談到台灣問題"},{"start":4317.357,"end":4340.479,"text":"當然他們都對於美國要協助台灣做防衛都有一致的看法但其中也有一位候選人他就表示要怎麼樣保護台灣他認為美國步槍協會應該要到台灣設分處而且應該要大量提供AR-15的自動步槍給台灣每一個人讓他們用AR-15的步槍來保護"},{"start":4341.92,"end":4349.433,"text":"自己部長你對於美國總統候選這樣的一個論點你身為我們的國防部長你是什麼樣的一個立場"},{"start":4350.305,"end":4373.931,"text":"我跟委員報告這一題就有的一測到選舉的話有點敏感但我對這種問題看法講說基本上一個國家他是以國防的那個能力要自己來做一個防衛不能夠仰賴其他其他國家都要有所幫助我們當然樂見但這個幫助未必要像剛剛委員講的到台灣來成立一個什麼俱樂部還提供什麼槍支"},{"start":4374.531,"end":4375.792,"text":"而不是俱樂部,它的步槍協會其實是廣發步槍的。"},{"start":4394.233,"end":4423.107,"text":"各位,我們說的不叫戰力,要靠外援拿到才有的。我不認為它是個戰力。部長,我對你的回答其實不甚滿意。為什麼?因為,當然你今天要求我們自己國軍的正規軍力的兵力來面對台防衛作戰。但是現在廣發步槍給每一個人,甚至之前還有美國前國安顧問認為要廣設次增飛彈在每個派出所,必要的時候通通拿出來全民接兵。"},{"start":4424.329,"end":4449.071,"text":"部長全民接兵是不是你的國防政策你要從這個角度來思考啊今天並不是說今天你說今天拿把槍來拿個飛彈來人民可以用那這個不是你們要的難道你希望全民接兵然後全民用用這個在這種情況之下是甚至跟戰爭法跟國際法是有所有所問題的我跟委員報告"},{"start":4449.952,"end":4474.304,"text":"所以全民接兵在我的界定啊就是全民接受過這種訓練以後他最起碼知道如何自我防衛這個當然是全民國防啊對全民國防跟全民接兵是不一樣的啦全民接兵的話有點浮誘大家通常要當兵我不做這個解讀他現在是每人一把自動步槍每個人都可以拿著自爭飛彈就開始打"},{"start":4476.118,"end":4505.698,"text":"我跟委員報告,這是一個提議。我們想說有很多意見。我就說是不是你國防政策嘛。身為部長你就說這是不是你的國防政策。臺灣的國防政策才不該如此。我們沒有,我們沒有這種政策。不是你的國防政策嘛。這不是臺灣的國防政策。我就是要你嚴格表達這樣的一個立場嘛。我現在不知道委員要怎樣。我說美國人有很多的關心,但是不切實際。全民皆兵每個人拿一把步槍,拿到自治分站就能射。這不是我們台海防衛作戰的構想。我們至少國家要把這個立場講清楚。"},{"start":4506.458,"end":4530.236,"text":"但我現在要進到下一個問題就是說我們現在的確我們在國防整備上面不只全民國防加強我們明年的這個國軍的訓練也都增加了那不只我們增加了海岸守備旅我們增加了後備旅那現在我們也看到上面寫說入伍的時候要增加震撼教育那我要問這個震撼教育什麼時候開始你要怎麼進行"},{"start":4531.364,"end":4549.181,"text":"事實上我跟委員現在已經在做了,現在四個月一期,他們也在做。也在做震撼教育嗎?現在也有震撼教育?有在做。然後是多少的時間,然後多少的彈藥在那個地方?多震撼?他在這個期末要入武完畢之前,每個兵都要經過這個訓練。阿現在這個訓練是怎麼樣?多長?彈藥多少?有多震撼?跟你前一不一樣。"},{"start":4556.209,"end":4580.72,"text":"跟委員報告震撼教育他等於說是一個戰鬥綜合教練的演練他是以模擬實戰的狀況他是以這個TNT的爆破還有機槍的空爆彈來模擬的狀況這個我都做過我知道我在問你量現在這個彈藥跟過去是比較少還是比較多還是一樣然後這中間大概多長時間要多長有多震撼嘛"},{"start":4582.059,"end":4594.111,"text":"我要問的是這個,你們不是都規劃好而且開始進行嗎?對,我們今年已經在實施震撼教練了。細節你都不知道就對了。第一個他沒有實施實彈,他是以機槍的空炮彈還有TNT模擬在戰場的一個景況。"},{"start":4604.12,"end":4628.933,"text":"那長度要多長?長度的話一到場地的話我們會有一個標準在這邊他是以障礙物的設置還有狀況的處置的相似還有距離來做一個規劃你講的都太模糊了我要求你們書面上來跟我們做說明這到底是怎麼樣進行然後在我們現在這一種震撼教育非常重要就是安全我們不希望在非戰爭時期有任何的傷亡"},{"start":4630.074,"end":4657.833,"text":"那這種訓練場是在專有的訓練場上面訓練嗎?還是說今天在每個部隊都可以進行?那你現在全國有多少座訓練這個教練場?每一個新訓單位都有。每一個新訓單位都有?總數多少?一個概略是14座。14座?所以他們進行的時候都要在這個教練場?他們要進行的時候一定要在教練場,而且有相關的防護規定的要求。"},{"start":4660.174,"end":4686.924,"text":"除了這一個新兵的震撼教育,那之前應該會有一些安全上面的一個教育、安全上面的一個指導吧?這個應該都會做吧?報完都有,我們在實施之前幹部也要做推演,還有跟這個官兵,都要測驗的官兵,都要做相關的案例規律。我希望你們這邊,部長,你們做一個書面上面的說明好不好?提交本委員會,大家來做參考。瞭解你們這個震撼教育新的做法要怎麼做好不好?好瞭解。我是問部長,部長好不好?"},{"start":4687.504,"end":4704.193,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們這樣好不好,我們以圖示在這個做之前我們要做哪一個工作在一張圖上表達清楚一個清楚的書面報告跟本委員說明接著我要再問就是說你這個明年要成立我知道你們在"},{"start":4705.574,"end":4716.646,"text":"陸軍有海岸守備旅,後備指揮部也有後備旅,然後憲兵也有守衛營。明年新增有多少的邊層要邊層?海岸守備這些的?有多少?海岸守備"},{"start":4721.102,"end":4733.011,"text":"公務員報告,這個步兵的守備旅他是有11個守備旅那他是按照期程來一直到117年還有分陸續的明年要編成幾個"},{"start":4736.715,"end":4739.657,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":4752.486,"end":4752.766,"text":"最後我再問部長"},{"start":4777.848,"end":4800.543,"text":"我要求就是說這個要跟我們來做說明好不好?到底你這個編程怎樣?現在我要再問的就是說最後一個問題3加1彈性休業方案我們上個會期有討論過我們有討論之前吧那這個大學3加1的這個彈性休業方案目前有多少人申請?有多少大學配合?你上來講吧"},{"start":4803.206,"end":4826.178,"text":"目前有五位目前只有五位是三加一彈性修正方案目前只有五位是我們第一梯是大四大廢周章辦到現在只有五位是那為什麼只有五位因為這個設計不良就像我們當初說的有很多的問題大學很難以配合個人很難以配合是不是這樣子只有五位三加一彈性修正方案只有五位"},{"start":4827.216,"end":4849.839,"text":"報告委員跟委員報告當初那個教育部在徵詢意願的時候有46位學生他表達有意願但目前提出實際提出申請的只有五位那後續應該陸續可能他們會會是他們需要提出申請會申請就會申請不會申請就不會申請而且跟委員報告這個他的我要問你現在問題在哪裡我們當初你們在提出來的時候我們就舉出很多問題了我那時候就提出說這樣的一個做法"},{"start":4850.259,"end":4877.506,"text":"大學修業大量的一個減少而且它裡面有必修什麼黨來黨去學校會不會為了你又加開暑休這些東西都很麻煩而且這種東西男性女性還不一樣如果大學真的三年可以念完乾脆就很多人都可以申請三年念完嘛而又不是只有當兵的人才可以三年念完我當時都舉出很多問題了那現在我們就看只有五個申請所以我才問你那現在問題你們現在開始去做了你們問題在哪裡咧回答一下吧部長"},{"start":4878.96,"end":4905.435,"text":"教育部教育部來跟委員報告教育部這邊做個說明當然我們就有頒布那個指引那主要就是希望同學在不影響他畢業的一個時間的情況下就剛才委員所講的三加一所以我們會給他更多的一個修業彈性比如說他原來在學習有多少學校配合這很難啊你現在一下要四年擠成三年然後大家為了你要當兵的這幾個人去調學程當然那麼簡單你現在就五個人"},{"start":4906.075,"end":4906.436,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":4921.676,"end":4945.353,"text":"各位委員報告,現在之前我們就有跟在6月頒布指引後,7月就已經跟學校做說明會,讓學校在這個學期,就是今年9月10號開始這個學期,把相關的學責、教務章程都已經做修正,包括剛才講的說,增加學期當中的學位的學分數,包括屬修或者是跨校可以來選修等等。我問你現在這五個學生分布在幾個學校?"},{"start":4946.568,"end":4962.222,"text":"跟委員報告目前因為是在尊重學生的意願的情況下大概目前有7個學校有46個學生來申請不是我們剛剛講只有5個申請嘛你的訊息比國防部還要落後他剛剛就說5個而已了46個是報名但是只有5個申請啊"},{"start":4967.605,"end":4995.393,"text":"現在剛才呃,國防部說目前已經有,就是五個是實際上提出來,因為他們...對啊,所以是前面只是表達一個意願,但是現在只有五個實際提出來,只有這五個人的學校要去為他們做調整嗎?呃不是,所有的學校都要先做一個,事先做一個調整以因應...那我問你現在這些學校有多少學校做調整啊?現在我們幾乎大部分的學校都已經做完調整了。那只是把這個命令,這個準則公佈啊,他其他課程都有做調整嗎?對,都要做相應的調整。不是都要做,都做了嗎?"},{"start":4996.572,"end":5011.59,"text":"就是學校在這個學期開始他就陸續開始都全部來來來我還也要求教育部針對3加1這一個的方案的實際執行也提交一個書面報告提交書面報告來給我們本委員會來看因為我們當初就質疑過這個問題了你現在質疑要做"},{"start":5015.634,"end":5016.435,"text":"謝謝陳委員。接下來請賴瑞龍委員詢答。"},{"start":5046.482,"end":5047.926,"text":"好謝謝趙薇請邱部長邱部長請"},{"start":5056.343,"end":5076.895,"text":"部長好,首先還是先請教一下啦,其實大家很,特別是選舉期間大家開始關心這個戰爭與和平啦,那當然大家都尋求和平啦,沒有人會主動想要發動戰爭,更何況是民主國家,更不會有啦,那國際專家也大概都有提了一些對台灣的一些建議啦,部長怎麼看待我們怎麼樣去尋求我們的和平?"},{"start":5077.981,"end":5092.612,"text":"我覺得講說我們防備的工作一定要做,你要講說有文事者必有五倍。我想任何一個國家,你在什麼民主、在什麼專制,你本身防衛的力量要有。"},{"start":5093.012,"end":5096.894,"text":"我直接問部長,部長你覺得這八年台灣有沒有做任何挑釁的動作?這八年就好台灣從來沒有做任何挑釁的動作"},{"start":5123.829,"end":5141.145,"text":"他認為在軍事方面的挑釁從來沒有做到現在中共主要認為講說有很多不管是政治或商業或者什麼條約等等的他覺得他這個界定就挑釁不見得是軍事方面那這我就沒有什麼意見了"},{"start":5141.665,"end":5157.458,"text":"民主國家裡面要去發動戰爭不是那麼容易的一件事情但是專制的國家恐怕就一個人的決定可能就會做的決定所以我們擔憂的擔憂這個所以我們必須防止的是專制者獨裁者一個人的一個決定就是說如果"},{"start":5157.858,"end":5172.875,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":5172.875,"end":5176.377,"text":"我同意。我剛剛跟委員報告,這就是一個自我防衛的能力,一定要有。就任何國家有文士者必有五倍。這不是我講的。千古不變的一個定理。"},{"start":5199.511,"end":5219.704,"text":"所以我想台灣不挑釁但是台灣也要必須強化自己的防衛能力那我想接下來再問一下因為我們的這個潛艦國造其實就是一個防衛能力的增加我們不會主動的去那個但是當你有潛艦在的時候其實就能夠增強更大嚇阻力你想要去對台灣發動"},{"start":5221.285,"end":5240.662,"text":"不管世界各想要對台灣發動任何的手他就會產生更大的嚇阻力部長同意這樣的看法吧我也同意就想說我們沒有挑釁別人但我們也要讓任何人知道假如你來侵犯我的話你本身你要付出代價部長那我問一下那什麼樣的人會阻止或反對台灣這個製造潛艦"},{"start":5243.044,"end":5243.064,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":5259.885,"end":5286.785,"text":"緊張要答覆,這我背著...部長,那我問你,如果想要侵略者,會不會想要去阻止你的潛艦的建立,會不會?比如說如果是專制的中共,如果是民主的國家,大概對這個東西應該是比較還好一點。中共不光對我們潛艦有問題,它在我們任何一樣軍品的採購或研發,它都有問題啊。對,因為只要它具有想要去侵略你的一個企圖心的時候,它就可能去希望你都不要走。對,我們放棄我們的武裝嘛。"},{"start":5287.845,"end":5312.896,"text":"這是任何一個敵對國家他對對方的期望都這樣子啊但沒有任何國家可以接受啊是啊 所以民主國家不會輕易的去對民主國家去發動任何嘛因為你說美國、日本或其他的民主國家他不會輕易的做這樣的事情嘛去發動任何的一個戰爭但是專制的國家具有這個獨裁者的國家是有可能會因為他的誤判而發出了這樣的訊號出來嘛"},{"start":5316.139,"end":5335.975,"text":"國軍一直在做的就是戰訓我們的本務,我們所做的就是防止任何外來單位、對,這個我們全力支持,全力支持國防部來做好這樣子我們的防衛的這個動作。那我問一下接下來潛艦的原型艦來完成之後,後續的國造的這個潛艦的部分會不會繼續來進行?海軍"},{"start":5340.441,"end":5340.681,"text":"所以強化我們國防嘛"},{"start":5362.711,"end":5377.491,"text":"那所以後續的潛艦都會如期來完成嗎?部長這沒有問題吧?我們就講說先把這個測評都沒有問題了打好一個很好的基礎後面的發展就如計畫來完成那部長會不會擔心未來會有變化?"},{"start":5378.257,"end":5380.898,"text":"國防部就保衛中華民國保衛台灣的安全這樣的角度還是要不斷跟國人去講"},{"start":5399.068,"end":5402.57,"text":"我跟委員報我從當部長到現在啊我到還沒有遇到哪一個不支持國防的啦講真話是他們的關切的這個課題會讓人覺得好像我們在好像要做一個什麼阻攔"},{"start":5428.286,"end":5443.077,"text":"我到目前沒有任何的叫我停止啊的工作,沒有。謝謝,謝謝部長。我希望國防部繼續努力的來推動啦,特別是跟國人的說明跟這個讓他們更了解。那我想問一下,除了潛艦國造,國艦國造未來會不會持續來推動?這也是有計畫也在持續推動的。來,要不要說明一下?"},{"start":5448.97,"end":5477.225,"text":"關於國建國造的部分現在全部都是按照計劃陸續在執行之中未來還有沒有再繼續這個還會嗎我們也希望持續的強化因為現在這個海洋的部分其實未來都是一個重要的如果我們有更強的嚇阻力在那個特別是海洋的部分大家都越來越重視的時候那你有更強的一個保衛能力跟嚇阻力的時候我們就能夠展現更強的我們自己的國力"},{"start":5478.286,"end":5478.686,"text":"產發署聯署長"},{"start":5497.236,"end":5523.821,"text":"來,署長我先講,剩最後一點點時間。署長當然,部長也都在這邊。我還是要強調,這個所有的船的部分,其實不管是造船、台船,或者是國家的一些重要的,幾乎都是落在高雄。不管是國家的幾個重要的一個船廠的部分。那船舶的中心唯獨就是在北部。我希望未來應該要持續地加重。你不要讓你的製造基地跟你的研發是分在兩個地方。"},{"start":5524.781,"end":5544.949,"text":"這個絕對是會產生你的製造最強的地點是在南部在高雄的時候那你就應該讓你研發多一點去跟那個因為當地會有很多的一些各種技術上的合作或者是新的一些研究出來那我希望未來讓這個研發的部分讓這個傳播中心部分應該要多一點跟南部的合作我認為應該往高雄去移動才能夠整個讓我們的傳播的設計傳播的製造能夠更強的一個效果"},{"start":5548.951,"end":5575.018,"text":"主長同意這樣的看法嗎?同意,因為所以說在進攻中心現在有成立一個船舶的那個特別一個處所以這也是要加強在南部這一部分來做研發我希望後續的部分經濟部各部會的部分應該要加強對這一塊當我們最強的都在南部的時候我們造船實力最強的都在南部的時候研發跟整個所有的研究的部分也應該要往南部去移動才能夠讓它整個不要把製造紙放在南部然後研發都放在北部我認為這個長遠是其實是不好的效果的好謝謝主長謝謝"},{"start":5582.714,"end":5584.276,"text":"接下來請王定宇委員詢答。"},{"start":5606.769,"end":5634.809,"text":"國防委員好部長早我們常在國防委員會討論一些決策的問題因為不管是武器的研製、採購或者是軍事的部署決策到執行部隊是一個口令、一個動作所以決策很重要所以我今天特別在我們這一屆任期的最後階段希望跟部長討論一件事情我覺得這個決策看起來不大其實影響會深遠"},{"start":5636.96,"end":5665.058,"text":"我們不管是自己國造的武器比如說天弓系列、雄風系列或者是雷霆2000或者我們去對外採購的不管現在傳說的AGM-158或者是F16V或海馬士我們其實都追求的是更精準打得更遠嚇阻力會更大精準、更遠那花的經費其實相當多那回到我們單兵"},{"start":5666.499,"end":5667.259,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":5685.63,"end":5701.827,"text":"我們台灣是一個城鎮遍布的環境我們沒有像那個大國有一大片的礦野跟沙漠所以精準打得遠對步兵的提高存活率跟戰鬥力其實很重要的我相信部長在這方面比我更專業"},{"start":5703.368,"end":5727.224,"text":"那我們現在呢單兵所使用的步槍我也看到我們軍備局確實有開始研製下一代XT112這個步槍但我必須提出說這個決策我今天真的是希望部長思考看看我們現在國軍現有的步槍是T91嘛但是我們後備部隊還有一些支援型的部隊還在用K2 T65 K2"},{"start":5729.758,"end":5733.059,"text":"我先請教部長,就你了解我們T-91的評價如何?其實我們T-91的評價是好的,是不錯的。我們如果武器可以出口,T-91的槍功還是我們少數可以出口的裝備之一。所以T-91我看了,包含國際上的在分析,台灣的國造T-91步槍是一把好槍。"},{"start":5759.189,"end":5759.389,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":5778.847,"end":5790.498,"text":"現在呢T-91的評價其實不錯穩定度啊各方面都還不錯我們現在進行研製的XT-112下一個新世代的步槍它的口徑是不是還是5.56"},{"start":5792.936,"end":5795.477,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":5813.32,"end":5816.001,"text":"五點五六有他的優點是他穿透性好是那以前呢"},{"start":5833.886,"end":5858.303,"text":"二制的大概是7.62的他是撞擊力大打了他會停下來我們5.56打幾槍中彈之後可能第一時間還不曉得還往前跑加上現在各國的防彈鋼板越做越好所以5.56的穿透力跟嚇阻力尤其我們的兵是精兵啊對方可能是用人海如果你不能壓制住他他還是往前衝的話"},{"start":5859.898,"end":5875.07,"text":"其實這個是一些思維的考慮所以我現在要提的就是說我們在有限的經費下有兩件事情我今天要具體建議的美國下一代的步槍他不是用5.56了他下一代步槍是用6.8厘米的"},{"start":5876.527,"end":5891.219,"text":"他的下一代步槍當然有很多新的設計他XM7是這個用6.8厘米老共的下一代不是下一代現在正在用的步槍他已經洋氣AK系列了他現在也是用6.8的嘛6.8他用8厘米的啦大家都開始採用6.8的喔就我們現在國造的下一代步槍我們還是維持"},{"start":5903.908,"end":5924.528,"text":"五點五六的這一點我是請部長你們是專家是不是在我們相關的兵工的產業討論看看如果我們要研製下一代的新時代的步槍那我們跟盟友之間又是合作關係我們在步槍的口徑上有沒有必要思考大家下一代走同樣"},{"start":5925.623,"end":5926.323,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":5950.066,"end":5976.975,"text":"共事那麼久了我永遠都是希望給國軍更多的預算、更多的資源讓我們的官兵弟兄用更好的裝備嘛防彈背心要用更好的我們的槍要用更好的是不是在現階段這些經費上把我們現在平價不錯還沒有全面換裝完成的T91其實未來的戰爭環境光學瞄準打得準握把打得準然後呢可以看得更遠"},{"start":5978.208,"end":5978.628,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":5997.613,"end":6013.96,"text":"單兵要特戰化作戰環境訓練實戰化而我們所處的環境、掩體、防射、精準度、射擊距離對單兵的存活率其實很有幫助所以再這樣請教我就我們下一代研製的步槍"},{"start":6015.5,"end":6039.706,"text":"XT112我具體建議國防部思考下一代我們國軍弟兄所需要的步槍它的口徑是不是應該往6.8走我沒有定論我尊重專家我只告訴你說各國往這樣走那我們自己還要維持5.56至於說啊那我們現在庫存一大堆5.56子彈怎麼樣那個不是問題啦因為我們可以把我們如果未來走到那一天的時候T91就會變後備部隊的嘛"},{"start":6041.306,"end":6049.685,"text":"好槍給後備部隊嘛我們換專實戰現役的主戰部隊開始先換專下一代新式步槍可以走6.8厘米的嘛"},{"start":6050.663,"end":6051.384,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":6075.996,"end":6096.279,"text":"是不是全面的把光學瞄準跟握把變標配讓他作戰訓練實戰化他平常就熟悉這些裝備那面對的是不管是灘頭、城鎮各種作戰環境精準度提高、存活率提高、射擊距離拉遠我們在雄風二"},{"start":6097.58,"end":6118.141,"text":"不管是雄二、雄三、公二、公三我們在所有新式大裝備的時候都在思考更準、更遠、存活率更高可是我們最寶貴的國軍弟兄姊妹們他在用的單兵作戰武器的時候其實應該要套進同樣的思維然後未來我們每一個單兵都是我們國家重要資產存活率要提高"},{"start":6125.687,"end":6147.443,"text":"對我們國軍建立一個具備嚇阻力的戰鬥量才有幫助我該建議這些因為我怕這是這一次會期我們兩個最後一次見面希望不是也歡迎你在旁邊坐你就這邊我是不是跟主席借幾分鐘部長怎麼看這個事情對我跟委員報告委員看法很對我們認為一個建案第一個考量為什麼要建這個案一定是敵情"},{"start":6148.484,"end":6168.561,"text":"第一須有變化,我們也要與時俱進啊。所以我們問他講說要做的需要,第二考量任務,任務能不能執行。執行,第二考量敵人怎麼變化。我們也要跟著變化,這絕對對的。那剛剛委員提出的建議也都很具體的。我想我們國軍建案也好,建軍的工作是要與時俱進。"},{"start":6170.242,"end":6170.602,"text":"這是應該的,謝謝委員。"},{"start":6204.568,"end":6206.348,"text":"梁副市長"},{"start":6233.096,"end":6253.061,"text":"教育部,國防部針對一五一拋出了三加一的方案,同時也希望大學生在三年內要完成大學學業,然後用一年的時間來服役。教育部的研擬提供了經費,引導大學來協助學生的完成異難專案服役。由醫院申請的異難需要在開學前"},{"start":6258.602,"end":6275.856,"text":"開始的時候二月份或者在九月份呢向戶籍地公所來申請那在這個學期當中呢也要陸續的來完成入伍前的前置作業對不對是所以在這樣的情況之下我們的學期結束的暑假"},{"start":6276.576,"end":6299.305,"text":"或寒假、露營來服役,完成了服役之後來學校協助復學的這個輔導。所以本席在這邊請教教育部目前申請的人數有提高嗎?你要怎麼樣去確保不會造成學生在學習上的一個衝擊?那麼你是否有持續的來掌控各校的辦理情況?請做說明。"},{"start":6300.385,"end":6324.924,"text":"是,跟委員報告,教育部在這個這個修業彈性措施的有三個基本的原則第一個就是說一定要確保學生他的一個自主的意願那第二個在不影響他對,自主意願很重要對,那第二個就是在他不影響他的一個專業能力的一個養成對,專業能力的養成非常重要因為3加1,縮短的時間怎麼去補足會用3加1就是說"},{"start":6325.845,"end":6348.302,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":6348.382,"end":6374.185,"text":"所以跟委員報告就是說那他倒是必須要在其他的這個三年當中他比如說立中原來在學期當中對嘛他四年收回三年嘛要怎麼去補對如果他有這樣意願有這個可能性我們必須要提供這樣的一個彈性措施所以我們會在學期間他原來各校可能有限制學位分的休息的學位分數我們會希望他給他增加針對有申請這個專案的學生那另外再加暑期的暑休還有像跨校的選修"},{"start":6374.845,"end":6401.28,"text":"這本席剛剛已經告訴你了,就是在你暑假寒假嘛。那現在申請的人數有提高嗎?是,跟委員報告,大概因為是從這個學年開始有學生陸續要來申請。那目前我們收到各校已經,到目前為止,都是我們大概到12月5號的資料為止已經有7個學校,總共有46名學生來向學校。跟你們預估的人數相符合嗎?"},{"start":6402.18,"end":6409.604,"text":"所以目前46位你滿意嗎?針對這個政策當然我們還是配合國防政策希望持續來透過學校來跟學生來來宣導好那我們再請部長好嗎?國防部長謝謝教育部你稍等謝謝我們一起來討論"},{"start":6430.009,"end":6454.979,"text":"教育部長,因為教育部現在說是我們這邊的需求,那現在的這個人數你滿意嗎?我沒有什麼滿意不滿意,我們當初訂這個義務要服的話,我們只要求這一年是連著服役,沒有服了一半寒假來一個階段的暑假。不能斷?沒有,對,其他的配套的話,因為教育部它有它的作法。那你有沒有人數的KPI?"},{"start":6456.516,"end":6479.656,"text":"有沒有人數?你的希望?有沒有?我沒有這個期望這樣。部長沒有期望喔?我沒有。我就只要能夠如期的按照我們推動一年期一期來服役。當然有一個政策我們當然有一個目標嘛。那現在教育部在這邊是46名。那你們國防部的目標認為這樣夠嗎?是夠了還是不夠?沒有。我們沒有設定這個目標嘛。來請說。請說。"},{"start":6486.69,"end":6508.585,"text":"委員跟委員報告因為這個是整個議期調整的一個配套我們是提供那個有需要的一個在學藝男的學生他一個多元的選項是只可以給他一個管道跟一個選項依他個人的意願跟他的能力來提出需求所以並不是以他的數目的多寡來作為他那個KPI的指標所以數目我們不拘嘛是這大家講清楚就是給他提高一個管道"},{"start":6509.045,"end":6535.024,"text":"所以提高一個管道大家聽到了所以不用壓力要好好努力去做就對了那接下來部長因為當位需求的人是在您這邊來訓練但是教育部在這邊也就是大專院校有七個學校願意要努力去辦但是也有學校拒絕嘛教育部是不是也有學校跟你們說我沒有辦法配合不會跟委員報告因為我們"},{"start":6536.138,"end":6554.054,"text":"是因為從這個學期開始才開始因為有民國94年次的學生所以現在只有7家學校目前已經有了7所學校46個學生那陸續還會有陸續7所學校目前我們也希望政府既然既定政策那就是要去落實"},{"start":6555.896,"end":6576.118,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":6576.198,"end":6600.995,"text":"本校請教我們的一呼一啟從現在的四個月恢復到一年那麼我們規劃有五個階段的訓練包括陸武的基礎訓練、駐地訓練等等那最迷人的就是說在他們訓練的當中步槍兵他實際的射擊數不得低於800發還有就是說他期望能夠有高階的操作標槍的飛彈"},{"start":6606.438,"end":6625.704,"text":"還有刺針飛彈等等高階的專長武器的訓練所以大家就非常期待所以請教部長我們現在符合訓練的基地夠不夠訓練的我們目前大概要有服一年的會有9000多人我們統計大概9127人"},{"start":6630.385,"end":6639.263,"text":"每一年一定會再增加會再增加在這樣的情況之下本席要請教部長我們訓練的基地現在到底夠還是不夠來請教"},{"start":6641.001,"end":6641.201,"text":"現在準備好了嗎?"},{"start":6660.635,"end":6661.495,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":6682.724,"end":6699.933,"text":"所以本席要再請教我們的軍事投資案的計畫因為我們希望計轉能夠讓我國的國防產業它能夠跟世界來接軌這個是我非常支持的一點所以本席要請教"},{"start":6701.033,"end":6717.491,"text":"我們跟經濟部跟外商的這個簽託工業合作協議書呢那這個要先簽這個發價書那事後工合呢的這個部分呢繼續來這個談判有一個彈性嘛那所以本席要請教"},{"start":6718.933,"end":6744.138,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":6745.131,"end":6767.065,"text":"那麼經濟部也在現場本席非常希望國防部跟經濟部要密切合作一定要務必要密切合作因為我們國內的國防工業必須要由政府來協助他們而且希望能夠計準那麼讓跟他們跟世界接軌這就是我們的目標嘛對不對所以呢部長本席要請教"},{"start":6767.825,"end":6795.9,"text":"本黨所提出的國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案是針對於主管機關以及經濟部應該要鼓勵外國的廠商跟合格的廠商進行產業合作跟相互投資相互投資所以我們增訂了並落實技術移轉的這個規範來提升我們的國防資儲改善產業環境以利我們跟世界接軌你同不同意本黨所提出的這個方案"},{"start":6796.48,"end":6818.139,"text":"這當然同意啦,這只要對我們國防自主有幫助嘛。像剛剛委員所關切的,一定要經過哪一個單位國家。但我要跟委員報告,我們有一些這個,不管發展或軍過各方面,都跟很多地方同步在做。不能夠只有一個地方。對,當然,當然,廣泛性的。對我們將來有幫助的,我們都樂見。福祉國內的國防產業。"},{"start":6823.263,"end":6823.924,"text":"接下來請吳斯懷委員詢答。"},{"start":6855.576,"end":6870.811,"text":"謝謝主席。有請邱部長。邱部長請。委員好。部長好。首先我想問一個媒體關注還有民眾關注的議題。"},{"start":6872.11,"end":6896.866,"text":"就是國防部的軍營安全條例現在準備二讀了但是我想我在一讀之前跟法治司相關的同仁也做過交換意見提出很多具體的地方必須在二讀、三讀之前讓民眾能夠適宜因為這個條例如果你把它寫得這麼死的話"},{"start":6899.397,"end":6900.758,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":6919.952,"end":6937.875,"text":"但是你這條例定的要考慮到實際可不可以執行那現在媒體跟軍事迷還有一般住在營區周圍的群眾民眾他們疑慮的是現在的現況是譬如說我們最清楚的花蓮的"},{"start":6940.598,"end":6951.068,"text":"機場軍事民就在跑到旁邊的咖啡廳二樓是最佳景點我都去過兩次就看著飛機起降大家在那邊拍照每一個機場都有每一個港口都有"},{"start":6952.506,"end":6971.871,"text":"那麼這些的界定你現在條例裡規定的是包含演習包含訓場只要軍事迷或者媒體或者民眾拍照或用其他方式不管無人機什麼拍的照在他社群媒體一旦披露就可能設法"},{"start":6972.851,"end":6995.229,"text":"司法這刑期判得很重這一部分有沒有在惡毒之前國防部暫緩一下跟民眾示意甚至開個公聽會聽聽媒體代表群眾代表交換點意見這樣子才能夠讓一個法令通過以後執行上確實無礙部長的看法"},{"start":6995.489,"end":7020.208,"text":"是,鮑委員您講的這個很有道理大家會好像很擔憂你嚴格規定那麼嚴格我好像動輒得咎事實上很多地方我們這母法定了以後它就有很多執法執法不光是國防部來律例就其他部會所以我們為何對外講法講說就算三族通過以後不是馬上要施行因為"},{"start":7020.908,"end":7045.978,"text":"行政院會要求其他各部會針對這個母法上面相關的執法會去做一個研議等到都很周延了才會推動那目前我們也也知道像外面民眾所關切的陳福光委員所講的會議好像我們過了做了好像就變成一個一個太嚴苛了動輒我們叫法辦不會的因為事實上有很多地方我們要"},{"start":7047.058,"end":7062.855,"text":"讓我們推動工作與法有據我跟委員報告一下像以前這個營區裏面有人闖進去了我們請警察幫忙那警察說我依據什麼他就講你沒有這個營區這種規範的話他只能闖入民宅的方法來辦"},{"start":7064.336,"end":7079.53,"text":"我們最起碼想這個法定了以後對我們執行法的單位不光是軍方、聯同縣警等等它是與法有據在與法有據執行當中有任何的不周圍的地方"},{"start":7080.211,"end":7103.092,"text":"但是法庭他們自然會去做一個說明、講解,不會想說變成只要軍中界線一劃,這個就變成不可侵犯,不會這樣子的。我想部長剛才舉的幾項案例,包含營區內部的安全維護,本席是絕對支持的。否則闖入營區沒有任何處置的法源依據,我們國軍還叫國軍嗎?"},{"start":7105.074,"end":7132.793,"text":"但是演訓場所的界定我希望你們找時間或者透過媒體讓群眾示意他連拍照都不敢拍的那些軍事迷天天都在九鵬基地附近山頭上架著大炮你拍了就犯法你只要敢貼出來你就判刑像這些演習區域的界定訓練場地的界定民眾不見得了解我希望在這幾個部分"},{"start":7133.493,"end":7157.952,"text":"多做一點更細緻的說明,包含你未來執法可能會做到什麼程度,否則你這個法案通過引起很多爭議,不是給你們徒增困擾嗎?是不是?了解。好,接著我再問啊,最近媒體報導美國空軍有個上位軍官來台灣住了幾個月,寫出一大堆不知道是依據什麼寫出來的結論,他的結論是"},{"start":7162.281,"end":7180.373,"text":"台灣受中國入侵有百分之七十人會留下來抵抗百分之二十會離開台灣百分之十會投降他的位階不過是一個上位軍官是現役的我想問問看他來台灣受兩個伴侶的專業訓練是誰訓練他是不是國防部邀請來的"},{"start":7187.13,"end":7213.498,"text":"那麼美國奉行的是軍人不能干政啊這這個現役尚未來我們國家指指點點還做出一些結論我非常不認同這些它依據什麼做出來的所以我想請部長知不知道這件事說明一下我跟委員報告這我剛剛聽委員長講話第一個問題是誰邀請這位美軍尚未來台這我還真不知道我們哪個單位邀請最起碼國防部沒有做這個邀請嘛"},{"start":7215.934,"end":7238.384,"text":"剛剛講說他有發表言論,我想我曾經對大家也講得很清楚,有很多學者專家他個人有什麼意見表達,我不會去跟他爭辯,因為他有他立的基礎。同樣當然委員關係也沒有錯,他一個美軍上位,他這個發表可能他這個原意為何我真不太了解。"},{"start":7241.767,"end":7254.701,"text":"我希望你們去了解一下因為他這個說法他又在美國空軍部部長辦公室任職雖然他位階不高他是現役上位是在美國空軍部部長辦公室任職"},{"start":7255.842,"end":7276.775,"text":"那麼他是受哪些特定人士、特定團體請來來做大內宣表示我們台灣人如何如何你一個上位有多大的閱歷跟經驗台灣住兩個月你就可以發表這種我本席深深不以為然我想他跟國軍有關我想部長希望有空了解一下"},{"start":7277.815,"end":7306.608,"text":"來龍去脈背井好不好?事實上國防部沒有邀約這些人就算來的話這一定是針對議題來討論他不會擅自對外發布這種訊息重點是他來台灣受兩個半月的專業訓練誰請他來他受了什麼訓練這些我們覺得很詫異媒體登了好幾次了我就覺得一直想問你們今天好不容易等到部長來你們去了解一下"},{"start":7307.83,"end":7317.195,"text":"回頭給本席一個稍微完整一點的資料。我相信你們是沒有,不然我不可能不知道,但是誰請他來的?那寫得言之鑿鑿,受兩個半月專業訓練得出的結論是台灣沒問題,我們都會抵抗。"},{"start":7329.534,"end":7332.057,"text":"另外美國國防部的中國軍力報告裡面也寫到很多"},{"start":7346.148,"end":7367.341,"text":"這幾年擾台、共機擾台、網路戰都有增加很多比例的趨勢但是他們其中最重要的幾個點我建議部長抽空啊你們兩個把這個重要的內容摘錄給部長參閱其中有幾個我們比較關注的美國國防部自己都承認"},{"start":7368.738,"end":7387.906,"text":"對於共軍的情報掌握沒有辦法做到很精確有很多盲點他自己都承認這個很少見美國對中國大陸的軍力報告很少自己在正式文件上說我們對中國解放軍的情報掌握"},{"start":7389.025,"end":7390.126,"text":"二、審查本院"},{"start":7407.91,"end":7407.97,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":7433.733,"end":7445.606,"text":"目前收到臨時提案有兩個案子等江啟臣委員詢答結束之後我們進行處理處理完畢之後我們再休息五分鐘接下來請接下來請廖瓦蘇廖委員質詢"},{"start":7461.983,"end":7464.865,"text":"來,謝謝主席。我請一下邱部長。請部長。還有國防學士班跟ROTC這個是兩個單位。部長辛苦了。也是志願師嗎?"},{"start":7481.257,"end":7483.678,"text":"國防部跟我們講說整個國防學士班招收不到學生所以我們今年度提辦113年停辦"},{"start":7509.088,"end":7528.265,"text":"但是從這個投訴當中,他覺得說在整個國防學士班當中,其實在大學的學生裡面、學校裡面其實蠻有意願的。當然你們的解釋是說當初的清華大學校長非常極力在招募,在說服大家讓學生能夠多以參與。"},{"start":7529.446,"end":7529.687,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":7550.618,"end":7551.458,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":7575.029,"end":7598.85,"text":"同意跟他們做一個說明然後呢事後你們只發新聞說沒有獲得學校的同意安排到底誤差在哪裡我不曉得所以我這裡在等一下的提案當中有提到如果今年度今年九月已經承諾這個了而且學校已經在招募了而且有招到學生的時候我們是不是要停辦"},{"start":7600.665,"end":7623.222,"text":"我跟委員報告,其實當中肯定有一點誤會。因為事實上我兩年多前到國防部以後,他有跟我提到的班隊。我第一個問題講說,這個成效怎麼樣?他就列個表給我。到目前我整個數據我跟委員報告,譬如說我們要期望獲得200多人,但後來遭到了大概有67人。67人當中還有21個人他說,就不來參加了。"},{"start":7628.806,"end":7637.963,"text":"所以真正這幾年累計出來以後要兩百多人只有四十多人而且最近這兩年幾乎很多校都零"},{"start":7639.424,"end":7642.967,"text":"我了解在這個整個預算審查當中其實國防部都有說明部長我不是打倒你的意思但是我現在想了解的是這國防學士班跟ROTC的話請問一下ROTC現在招募的學生數是481位"},{"start":7668.833,"end":7693.227,"text":"所以說我要跟委員報告,他跟ROTC幾乎是一概等的。對,所以我們那時候在審查預算當中也希望說,如果不行,其實有意願的可以轉到ROTC。那我想請教一下志願市,你跟我回答。ROTC的學校來源,學生來源大致都有哪些學校?因為國防學士班你定位的當然清華成功中心就不招了嘛。"},{"start":7693.607,"end":7714.838,"text":"但是呢,中央、中山政治、臺灣跟臺北大學等等的這些學校為主是國防學士班那ROTC的學生到底來源是哪些學校?有沒有歸納過?ROTC每個大學,所有大學都可以報名的。我希望所有大學是哪?所有大學?教育部知不知道?聯署長"},{"start":7716.201,"end":7734.468,"text":"所以我這邊可以列舉出來的不管是清華、政大、台大、成功、中央、中興、中山都包含在裡面國防學士班都有這些學生你把ROTC的學生、學校數、學生數你說給本市長講我其實不是說一定要把國防學士班"},{"start":7739.15,"end":7739.771,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":7755.01,"end":7755.19,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":7778.314,"end":7799.792,"text":"那這些有沒有需要在這些學校當中去尋找國防人才那國防人才為什麼他們不要呢不是只有學校校長推動的動力而已而是我們的誘因有沒有給他更好對不對因為實際上我看你們的那個預期當中的補助啦各方面都一樣嘛只是國防學術班的話你如果沒有"},{"start":7802.954,"end":7804.135,"text":"所以大家不敢去參加國防學士班"},{"start":7817.11,"end":7817.27,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":7838.66,"end":7839.14,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":7861.107,"end":7880.624,"text":"能不能,如果說已經有學生要報的話,能不能繼續?沒有,他已經在那邊就讀的啊,我們一樣,他這個後面...就讀的當然就讀今年度,一百一十三學年度。要報我們準備要停止了,因為要報的話,我們這幾年成績已經看到了,都掛零嘛,要不就是來了幾個,我覺得這個投資他如果真要有意願的話,"},{"start":7881.525,"end":7882.425,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":7909.79,"end":7910.511,"text":"三、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":7934.09,"end":7936.933,"text":"那現在我們剛剛講的國防大學這幾個學校當然有時候劇烈的關係學生要休息當休息學分當中很難去去去因為解決交通的問題然後包括那個"},{"start":7946.974,"end":7947.014,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":7972.625,"end":7972.885,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":8001.721,"end":8018.864,"text":"只是我是覺得應該就幾個方向去檢討那ROTC我相信過去失敗的原因你們現在是有就好了還是因為過去也是失敗過所以停招停招之後才恢復的嘛那現在是因為人力缺乏所以我就"},{"start":8019.184,"end":8039.899,"text":"當初ROTC它不是失敗,它因為當初有很多班隊還有預官,所以它的來源是很充分的。現在來源不充分,所以ROTC就可以。後來也有很多提議,說ROTC還是可以造就出一些專業人員,譬如說部隊裡面有一些ROTC,到現在位階也不低,也收到將軍都有。"},{"start":8041.673,"end":8044.935,"text":"但是我們看到數據我也請他們提供數據給委員看一看這幾年來要的不多十個"},{"start":8067.648,"end":8073.232,"text":"所以我說要檢討就是他沒有誘因尤其國防學士班你如果沒有參加的話他就連學籍學校都不能唸的情況之下當然沒有誘因啦所以我是覺得這是要檢討啦如果我們需要這些學校的科系上的人力配合國防部產業發展的話我是覺得應該再修正一下他的更好的誘因給他嘛"},{"start":8092.646,"end":8094.047,"text":"最後一個問題我想請教一下就是也是配合今天的產業發展條例當中的修正案我是覺得那一天我們在參訪當中"},{"start":8117.84,"end":8144.065,"text":"何昭薇有提到未來我們的無人機的推動經濟部今天也有來我們無人機推動是無人機國家隊但是為什麼我想請問一下部長您請回休息一下沒關係為什麼經濟部會提出來在無人機國家隊當中由四家廠商然後兩兩來合作研發結果測試不過之後變成這個無人機的生產反之無人機的生產就停辦了"},{"start":8146.054,"end":8165.798,"text":"現在變成不管你有沒有參加無人機都可以來招標沒有參加驗證的廠商也可以來招標這個整個制度大亂了這個請國防部來回答我先問你為什麼找世嘉來做合作呢?當時我們是推薦總統當時是推薦世嘉兩家兩家合作那後來決定說兩家合作是國防部這邊來主導的"},{"start":8173.53,"end":8174.15,"text":"二、審查本院國防部部長"},{"start":8196.796,"end":8205.869,"text":"國科會、工程會共同組成一個審議委員會來決定出來,然後推薦給國防部。兩家兩家研發結果研發失敗之後,現在為什麼要沒有參加過驗證的廠商都可以來招標?"},{"start":8217.489,"end":8236.079,"text":"兩家研發失敗之後,四家兩家兩家研發失敗之後,現在沒有成效了,然後現在是變成說沒有驗證過的,我們為了急迫需要這些反制污染劑的話,我們現在是公開招標嗎?那個委員指的是明年後年的26套的採購的政策。你們原型機不是兩…"},{"start":8239.475,"end":8253.423,"text":"委員好,我是國防採訪室主任,跟委員報告因為這個研發,它之前援引機的研發它適用這個限制性招標所以說,原則上就是經濟部評選出來的合格廠商我們從合格廠商裡面來遴選這個廠商來開發但是因為量產案"},{"start":8258.126,"end":8260.568,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":8287.808,"end":8288.628,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":8316.92,"end":8342.335,"text":"所以變成這個測試是失敗的嗎?這個案子是失敗的嗎?每一家公司會跟你整合嗎?你想想也是好我現在質疑的地方就是當你兩家兩家、四家變兩家兩家各研發測評沒有過的、測試沒有過的情況之下現在你們要怎麼完成未來的量產?"},{"start":8343.049,"end":8343.229,"text":"二、審查本院"},{"start":8362.335,"end":8383.936,"text":"但是因為選擇性招標所以它還是有初步的一個選擇兩兩研究都研究不出來原型機了你現在開放的話唯一的就是代理商進來嘛所以我希望代理商進來你公告招標我都沒有意見代理商進來根據我們的產業發展條例在國內設廠或者是技術移轉可以嗎"},{"start":8385.885,"end":8390.868,"text":"我們樂觀啟程,我們樂觀國內產業自主發展。但是要不要代理商的話?兩兩研究都研究不出來,你現在公開招標,哪一個做得出來?就是代理商進來買現成的給你嘛。那我要求的可以,我們有必要性,一個原則在國內設廠,不然就是技術移轉好不好?"},{"start":8411.465,"end":8412.186,"text":"接下來請江啟臣、江委員質詢"},{"start":8444.468,"end":8447.35,"text":"主席、邀請部長邱委員"},{"start":8462.878,"end":8482.356,"text":"台灣的代表制的這個票選大家選出缺字嘛那我看你有對這個自由做出回應說你說國軍缺乏更好的場地訓練然後更好的這些裝備等等那我請教一下部長缺場地這一個部分你現在"},{"start":8483.477,"end":8500.219,"text":"我覺得最缺的是哪一部?我缺的是缺乏我們訓練,我擔心我們訓練不足,我只怕這一個。所以是缺乏訓練?對,因為那天有這個字出來嘛,就去問嘛。我跟你講我沒有表達任何意見。"},{"start":8502.743,"end":8518.584,"text":"因為我看到媒體寫說你說缺更好的場地做訓練我想會奇怪說的這些我們該蓋的場地這些等等立法院幾乎全部都給你預算但是的確有一些延宕"},{"start":8519.685,"end":8545.754,"text":"對不對?你們在發包的時候或者在做一些工程的這些施作的時候我們每年審查預算常常都會出現預算沒有執行或執行率不佳嘛所以第一個場地的部分我認為基本上國防部編列的預算立法院幾乎都審議通過啦都是支持的所以接下來是你們執行率的問題至於你提到說更好的訓練這一塊我想這個"},{"start":8549.356,"end":8571.234,"text":"也的確是一個大問題但不管是場地、人或者是裝備包括裝備的這一部分其實大家也都很關心之前大家認為說一些軍購的延宕雖然後來你們也修改了發架書變更了這個交貨的期程不過這個變更是延後的這也是一個事實"},{"start":8571.994,"end":8590.212,"text":"那我現在要問的就是說不管是F16V仿裝甲的飛彈或者是建設的次增防空飛彈M1A2T的裝甲車還有這個F16上面所用到的這些相關的我們說採購的裝備更改後的這些日期會不會再變"},{"start":8595.566,"end":8618.725,"text":"因為這個已經更改過交貨的日期了但基本上最終只交貨的時間不會變最終只交貨不會變所以我現在所看到的不管是F-16V延到2025年的第四季然後仿專甲飛彈延到今年開始交運然後監射飛彈這邊延到2025"},{"start":8621.987,"end":8640.848,"text":"甚至是M1A2T也是明年才開始交貨。這些不會再變了吧?不會再變了。這個我要確認,因為基本上這都是預算沒有問題,都是交貨被延宕的部分。再來一個,其實如果要講缺,我認為最大國防部你要擔心的是缺人。"},{"start":8643.139,"end":8669.438,"text":"我沒有講這個缺人因為我們這個持續招募一定要經常做當然招募我知道你們也認真在招募啦招募也在持續嘛可是你現在最大的問題就是你的編制員的21.5萬我講志願役的部分啦義務役當然很多人關心明年1月開始義務役恢復成這個一年一年的這個役期的徵兵制但志願役的部分這恐怕是你們"},{"start":8670.559,"end":8690.542,"text":"我認為這一塊不該被忽略甚至應該要好好的去檢視跟檢討的因為21.5萬的編制元額但是現在只有15.5萬這個是幾乎已經逼近七成就編線比從過去的八成多一路掉掉掉到現在七成二"},{"start":8692.636,"end":8720.647,"text":"這個是一個蠻大的危機就算我們把這個純均值的拿出來看你純均值的19.4萬的編制但現在的原額是15.5萬那也才7乘979%也不到八成那更令人擔憂的這也是立法院預算中心所提出來的就是說第一線的戰鬥部隊編線比不到八成的問題"},{"start":8721.823,"end":8740.397,"text":"那這個第一線的戰鬥部隊你大概很難期待說用未來一年期的義務役去彌補吧,不太容易吧。如果原本蔡總統所講的義務役一年的兵役是以守備部隊為主,它並不是所謂第一線的主力戰鬥部隊。"},{"start":8742.031,"end":8762.5,"text":"那你要去彌補你現在這個缺額那這是一個這個恐怕沒辦法做彌補而且我們現在所採購的這些新式的武器你大概也很難用一般的EVE來做訓練跟操作你可能連訓練的時間都不夠所以我說缺人的這個問題才是你要面對的問題"},{"start":8763.8,"end":8774.007,"text":"到底原因是什麼?為什麼邊縣比一直掉?然後邊縣比一直掉就算了,你們現在還調高編制原額喔從21.5萬然後從112年開始逐次調整到現在是21.8萬所以已經不是21.5萬了所以如果我們用21.8萬來除的時候你現在的邊縣比是更低的啊"},{"start":8792.518,"end":8793.621,"text":"明年搞不好不到期程"},{"start":8794.522,"end":8823.164,"text":"那這是代表要放棄志願役嗎?放棄募兵制嗎?部長不會調整吧?不會不會因為到後來反過來變成是義務役為主然後志願役為服務我跟委員花鼎生跟文婷報告喔就是說剛剛講說的守備部隊沒有錯但我們當中有規劃很好喔有一些伏筆役的弟兄他有意願到主戰部隊去的喔他的專長要符合經過我們測考可以評鑑可是那就是一年啊"},{"start":8823.684,"end":8848.609,"text":"沒有錯,所以這個要我們一到主戰部隊以後,它不見得就投入主戰兵力,因為主戰部隊裡面也有很多戰鬥支援、勤務支援單位,這都可以算在裡面。可是部長你要想,你要你現在馬上的落差,21.8跟15.5你算一下差多少,差將近6萬。"},{"start":8849.889,"end":8853.351,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":8881.836,"end":8905.408,"text":"對,所以你要馬上彌補啊,彌補我一直講這個gap你21.8跟你現在15.5然後你馬上你要接裝這些新的武器這些新的武器不是只有說操作這些包括維護、維修、後勤各方面這個是一個大問題部長你們想好了沒"},{"start":8907.562,"end":8934.345,"text":"這十五萬我要跟委員報告他還沒有包含這個維持原額喔在風扇裡面大概有十九萬多啦好不好我這跟請上官是跟你說說你那個您剛剛講的分母就是自願役的人力對啊自願役我現在講的就是自願役的對十九萬四嘛那我們縣員是十五萬五對啊沒有錯這中間有個缺口這中間差了四萬欸對大概邊縣比現在大概79.8嘛所以他基本上還是沒有達到"},{"start":8936.085,"end":8949.972,"text":"以往我們都拿八成來看其實八成也是不夠啦所以我要提出來就是說你用什麼方式第一個留住現在的招募來的第二個要能夠招募到新的"},{"start":8951.644,"end":8972.033,"text":"其實去年你們在宣布說恢復徵兵一年期徵兵的時候,包括提高了義務役的待遇但我一直認為你們志願役待遇都沒有提啊,也沒有調啊當時候我也質問過部長嘛,那你們是講說我們就照這個行政院的人事相關的規定來辦理"},{"start":8975.075,"end":8991.883,"text":"但是你們國防部自己有沒有想法說其實你的薪資待遇的誘因不足也是一個大因素這個比較之下其實是很現實的問題甚至我們到第一線去我記得我當召委的時候排了好幾次的考察"},{"start":8993.363,"end":9014.111,"text":"有一些小兵私底下跑到我旁邊跟我講悄悄話他不敢跟你們講他說第一個他說委員我們常常都待命都沒辦法放假沒辦法回去陪小孩陪家人那就算了連什麼連津貼都沒有增加也就是說啦如果我們用加班費來比較的話連這個也沒有"},{"start":9016.805,"end":9036.862,"text":"不管任何部隊啦尤其在第一線這種戰備的部隊尤其前陣子包括現在也一樣兩岸關係也沒有說因為現在好像比較緩和也沒有啦他們的出勤的狀況也都增加但是他的待遇沒有提高他的家籍、補給都沒有增加"},{"start":9039.223,"end":9064.115,"text":"這是這些基層士官兵他不敢跟你們講的可是他們卻偷偷到我耳邊講甚至有些直接寫陳情給我所以部長薪資待遇是一個問題當然還有其他的相關的配套福利我知道你們想要蓋好的房舍給他們住我們都支持啊新安專案你們去蓋我們都支持啊可是薪資結構這一部分你們有要調整嗎"},{"start":9066.363,"end":9085.853,"text":"目前的規劃有嗎?是,報告委員跟委員報告,那有關於薪資待遇的部分除了他的基本待遇是跟著軍公教橫貧的原則我們依行政院的政策指導,另外我們也行政院的政策指導有要調嗎?沒有嘛,那個就是跟著所有的軍公教一起嘛另外我們還依據他的部隊的特性跟任務的屬性"},{"start":9086.593,"end":9113.95,"text":"我知道那個是原本有戰鬥加級、會調整各種勤務跟專業加級,對不對?我們這個是逐年有在做滾動式的檢討。但是最近也沒有調啦。我的意思是說,明年EWE的大幅的調了,但志願也都沒有調。可是你看到你的邊線筆,你們都不緊張嗎?你不緊張,我真的還替你們緊張。為什麼?因為這種東西會產生很多的空窗期。"},{"start":9114.77,"end":9136.596,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":9137.062,"end":9145.226,"text":"它裡面直接寫軍人加薪增加預算總額這個NDA要求為美國軍人加薪5.2%沒有錯你說美國它是軍事大國可是呢"},{"start":9159.701,"end":9180.675,"text":"他們也是一樣啊,他現在還在為軍人,職業軍人,這是職業軍人。所以我今天在這邊特別提出來,就是我之前我也提過了啦,但我覺得就是看到你們編憲筆之後啊,令人更加的擔心啦。那最後最後啊,因為主席站起來了,我最後提出一個問題啊,就是說"},{"start":9182.592,"end":9208.43,"text":"這個NDA裡面國防授權法美國剛出爐的這個國防授權法這個基本上參眾兩院都已經有基本的一些共識了這當中也提到了很多關於對台的這一部分情報交換、軍事訓練合作那特別是軍事訓練合作這一塊他們特別特別的強調我想請教一下部長"},{"start":9209.864,"end":9231.503,"text":"目前我們主要都還是以陸軍為主,對不對?陸軍為主,比較規模稍微大一點的。海空軍的部分未來有沒有打算?一直都有。我們一直在工作,一直在做的。陸海空軍都有?陸海空軍都有。那這部分的規模應該會持續的加大吧?"},{"start":9233.415,"end":9252.02,"text":"會持續的把它鞏固下去那在這個NDA裡面這一次他的條文裡面你們注意看他特別提到一個部分我認為是值得注意的他特別提到要求美國的國防部長還有他們的這個參謀聯席會議的主席甚至是情報單位"},{"start":9253.615,"end":9271.893,"text":"要deliver一個完整的報告這個報告是關於什麼任何可能被共軍怎麼樣封鎖的可能跟方式然後因應的這些這個方案等等的這一部分"},{"start":9273.392,"end":9291.143,"text":"我們自己有沒有做相關的研析跟推演?這就我們為什麼每一年有這個備戰計畫不要調各種可能行動全部放在裡面這也就我們平常部隊演訓的一個依據因為這裡面特別提到,他說"},{"start":9292.244,"end":9298.39,"text":"偵測有可能的封鎖,我們有辦法嗎?比如說我們現在我們能不能告訴大家說這什麼樣的狀況底下我們看出來這可能要對台灣進行封鎖"},{"start":9315.659,"end":9334.812,"text":"我們平常我們都在研判的我們自己有沒有這個identification的list我們當然有各種備案當然有一些不能在這裡講但我要確認的就是你們到底有沒有我們跟委員報告國軍現行對戰這麼多年要講沒有的話那真的笑話一折這個問題就是在於說你要如何預防"},{"start":9345.519,"end":9361.192,"text":"警示,可是面對這些警示你如何破警?你如何預防?讓它不要發生?這部分有沒有相關的準備?應該也有吧,大盤推演都有在演之前考察都有去看"},{"start":9363.154,"end":9379.627,"text":"好,那就是說這個NDA裡面特別提出來所以我在這邊要講的就是當他特別提出來的時候就代表這個恐怕也是未來我們要面對的一個重點所以請國防部好好準備好不好好,謝謝江委員謝謝委員"},{"start":9382.827,"end":9405.238,"text":"我們幾次考察都了解國防部其實行之掌控的不敢說非常好但是應該有在掌控謝謝但是呢這個志願役的加級一定要提高不提高退伍潮會很多謝謝現在我們處理臨時提案有兩個案子請議事人員宣讀第一案"},{"start":9407.073,"end":9434.011,"text":"臨時提案第一案建於共軍無人機隊伍外導防務威脅日升國軍急需無人機反制系統應對威脅為今年由經濟部委民間研製之無人機反制系統原型系統因系統整合失敗陸軍司令部疑與解約據國防部向立法院送交之報告指出未來將由工程會、經濟部及國防部等跨部會另成立無人機反制系統"},{"start":9434.871,"end":9449.205,"text":"專案小組、研議系統規格及採購做法。中科院本具備研製無人機反制或防禦系統軍能力為為因應經濟部無人機國家對之發展、扶植國內無人機反制系統產業、國防部考量外導需求、"},{"start":9451.627,"end":9478.844,"text":"及國內國防產業技術整合能力以委託研究方式檢視國內廠商全系統研製能力以作為未來建制籌貨參考,為免失去扶植國內相關產業發展之本意,仍要求國防部未來不得以代理商取代研製之方式,招標無人機反制系統。體驗人委員廖婉如、陳穎信、吳詩懷、李德維等委員宣讀完畢。請問國防部對體驗內容有沒有意見?"},{"start":9486.909,"end":9505.477,"text":"委員這邊補充說明一下就剛剛還來不及跟委員報告齁如果按照委員您這樣的臨時動議就等於說完全就限制在我國內廠商那這一次的偽製案為什麼後來會不成功就是國內廠商他自己沒有辦法整合那每一家就各自堅持自己的部分他沒有辦法去"},{"start":9506.457,"end":9531.692,"text":"變成一個team去把它整合起來所以這次的委制案才失敗但是我們現在開的限制性招標我們是希望你在國內自治的比率越高我給你的評分加權就相對越高用這樣子來扶植我國內的產業但是又不會去妨礙國外更先進的技術引進我國內好 謝謝所以我們建議修成就是由經濟部來協助國內產業發展無人機反制系統這樣子"},{"start":9535.902,"end":9536.162,"text":"可以嗎?可以"},{"start":9561.231,"end":9581.928,"text":"只要我們不要百分之百排除代理商的技術引進我當然你們絕對沒有辦法接那個目前來講一定是代理商啦就我們要求代理商剛剛我講的就是國內設廠不然就是你要跟我們的國內廠商做產業合作跟技術引轉嘛經濟部能不能同意啊想發順道頒禮齁"},{"start":9586.175,"end":9586.815,"text":"拜託我們來修。"},{"start":9608.513,"end":9635.162,"text":"我跟網友報告這兩個路徑一個就是國內的廠商自行開發另外一條路徑就是主席講的是說可以跟代理商合作這兩個路徑一定要同時進行剛剛主席講的代理商合作裡面他還要求說你要有計轉或者是一定要有這個相關的代理商要跟我們有怎麼樣的做法你要不要把文字先聽清楚確定是怎麼樣的文字有 剛才那個文字思考一下 來"},{"start":9636.28,"end":9651.431,"text":"因為我知道完全用否決代理商你們絕對會反對我有覆案參考一下文字修正就是加注後面那些我建議可以加反要求國防部未來除尋求國內製造"},{"start":9654.813,"end":9663.343,"text":"之外可請求代理商與國內合格廠商進行產業合作及相互投資並落實技術規範。"},{"start":9671.952,"end":9672.873,"text":"第二案請議事人員宣讀。"},{"start":9693.039,"end":9710.376,"text":"臨時提案第二案,國防部為突破木兵之困境及建立培育文武兼備人才之教育模式,清華大學與國防部多次協調綜合成立同意成立國防學士班計劃。2019年遭受優秀高中畢業生從軍報國,2020年成功大學等"},{"start":9712.618,"end":9734.852,"text":"頂尖大學也陸續加入,開啟了我國大學孟斌新業,為因招生人數不如計劃預期。國防部已發函各大學審視國防學士班招生狀況,並有學校已規劃明年度停止辦理國防學士班招生。目前正在辦理國防學士班的清華、成大、中興三校均向國防部表達了"},{"start":9736.553,"end":9764.371,"text":"續辦意願,極力爭取,隨國防部今年九月獲同意續辦,卻於十一月又來函勒令停招,這部已合併招生,學校亦已宣傳招生,為避免侵害信賴保護原則,培育文武兼備人才及多元募兵之意旨,免要求國防部針對同意續辦之學校,應繼續辦理國防學士班計劃。提案人委員廖婉如、陳以信、吳思淮、楊瓊英、李德維等。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":9765.9,"end":9791.792,"text":"國防部有沒有意見跟委員報告他這裡面有提到說九月同一續辦這個部分其實他們我們今年在六月七號的時候發函到各學校有七所學校其中四所學校表達意願他們不願意辦的只剩下中興、成功跟清華他們願意試辦那後來我們整個做完怎麼跟你報告相反啊清華、中興跟成功是不要"},{"start":9792.677,"end":9796.353,"text":"沒有中興、成功跟清華他們這三所事項要續辦的"},{"start":9799.22,"end":9821.538,"text":"對,那這三所後來我們整個檢討之後成效不佳而且它跟ROTC的重複性很高它完全可以用ROTC的模式來進入軍中所以說我們有去發函給這三所大學希望能夠去跟他們做一個說明那中興大學後來也願意配合國防部的政策停止不辦理了"},{"start":9823.88,"end":9850.96,"text":"那清華跟成大呢他們在報紙所刊的那些並不是事實那副校長講的是假話對,那不是我在這邊非常負責任跟委員報告我們所有的紀錄都有非常清楚的紀錄他們一直一言再言就是一直在言到12月底那所有的招生簡章是在12月初到1月才會招生簡章出來所以說他現在根本都還沒有開始招生"},{"start":9851.721,"end":9876.512,"text":"他必須要在招生檢章出來在1月20號明年1月20號學測之後才會開始招生也就是說113年所有的學生並沒有開始招生那我們檢討了這些所有的經過之後我們決定113年停招那後續如果說還有意願想從軍的都可以循ROTC的模式進入軍中"},{"start":9883.169,"end":9905.834,"text":"主席主席我可以發言嗎?可以我覺得主席跟一些委員的提案其實是相當的積極跟正面那大家都知道開這個國防學士班跟所謂的ROTC最重要是裡面的教學的內容並不是表示"},{"start":9909.267,"end":9930.24,"text":"並不是表示說這些所謂的文人大學就是不是軍事院校這些文人大學的學校沒有這個意願更何況我們現在的這個國防部不是只有針對職業軍人或是志願裔未來有很多包括說可以到中科院或是可以到這個理工科系為主的包括什麼無人機也好或是飛彈等等這些"},{"start":9931.281,"end":9952.747,"text":"如果可以從這三、四所學校裡面可以得到更先進的一些計畫或者是教學的方向的話其實都可行我們只要在限制招生的條件上面不要說你一定要去參加以後一定要當志願役所以我覺得那個主席你的提案可不可以就是只有在最後應繼續積極溝通辦理國防學士班計畫"},{"start":9956.608,"end":9984.2,"text":"因為那個我不認為說有一些大學的副校長講的話是偏頗的可能在溝通上面出現一些狀況那主席也非常了解這中間的差距所以我認為說第一個我們當時有包括我們立法院的這個外交國防委員會都希望國防部可以跟這些所謂的頂尖大學一起來合作但是合作的開辦的這個科目或是教學的這個對象其實是可以再多做溝通的"},{"start":9984.78,"end":9995.134,"text":"所以不要說就當成說我們就不辦就好了我想這樣反而不好會斷掉我們原來跟這個文人尤其是有基本的頂尖科研的這個學校裡面合作的機會以上"},{"start":9996.15,"end":10017.716,"text":"我同意那個劉委員的修正方式你針對內容的修正方式主席我可以這邊主席其實我是請坐可以建議來就是也結合剛才那個劉思芳委員的建議我是建議就加改一個字就好了最後兩句就是嚴要求國防部針對同意續辦的學校嚴議繼續辦理國防學士班計劃這樣就好了吧"},{"start":10022.777,"end":10022.957,"text":"國防部"},{"start":10039.47,"end":10063.192,"text":"跟委員說明啊,我們正期班的招募成效103%,ROTC 135%,專業軍官班109%,但是整個國防學士班的招募的狀況就33%,扣掉21個退學之後只剩下22%,那個效果,整個成本效益跟招募的效果真的是...我是提案"},{"start":10063.812,"end":10081.989,"text":"我只留一條路你們未來可以走我沒有要求你們你們跟他說停辦了現在沒有要求你今天明年113年一定要招嘛但是我是覺得嚴義對不對留一個未來國防那個那個學士班的話還是或許可行嘛"},{"start":10083.591,"end":10109.412,"text":"我說你們誘因不足嘛而且那個設計的方式不對啊他如果國防學士班他不想念的時候連學籍都沒有他當然不敢報名啊因為很多人你們都很多不適應的退伍了他們怎麼知道我念了國防學士班能不能練得完呢對不對所以我是覺得主要是設計上也有一點機制上的問題不然的話"},{"start":10111.474,"end":10138.107,"text":"教學合作班為什麼理工學院那個都非常踴躍?雙學位他們多踴躍啊?對不對?好不好?我是覺得改延逸可以嗎?委員那我們最後提一個意見啊就是倒數第二行原要求改成原建議國防部那後面就是建議延逸都可以啊對然後繼續就是應繼續就委員所剛所我也是改兩個字而已你們要延逸還是建議?延逸延逸比較好啦好?建議"},{"start":10141.854,"end":10142.995,"text":"第一案先唸"},{"start":10171.67,"end":10174.732,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":10208.749,"end":10219.772,"text":"第二案協商結果,原要求國防部針對同一續班之學校研議繼續辦理國防學士班計畫。其餘均遭原提案通過。"},{"start":10241.258,"end":10241.618,"text":"主席"},{"start":10251.792,"end":10274.692,"text":"宣讀修正之文字,為免失去扶植國內相關產業發展之本意,應要求國防部除採購國內自製產品,若採購國外現貨,應要求代理商與國內合格廠商進行產業合作及相互投資並落實技術轉移,其他同原提案通過。"},{"start":10277.674,"end":10288.012,"text":"令第一段第三行陸軍司令部已與解約改為陸軍司令部已與終止合約其他造源提案通過。全讀完畢。"},{"start":10288.749,"end":10298.412,"text":"好,各位委員我們見。好,劉委員,這個...剛剛那個無煙機防制那個齁,那個為了讓它能夠更確實落實,我們建立這樣,反要求國防部除採購國內產製產品外,如是採購國外現貨應要...欸,如是採購國外貨品應要求落實在地化組裝或與國內廠商合作。"},{"start":10316.917,"end":10326.159,"text":"除國防部採購國內自製產品,要加國防部就是了?對,反而要求國防部除採購國內產製產品外,如系採購國外貨品應要求落實在地化組裝或與國內廠商合作。"},{"start":10345.592,"end":10347.593,"text":"國內自治改產制國內產制產品若產品外再加一個外這個字然後再逗點"},{"start":10368.001,"end":10368.661,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":10397.879,"end":10400.641,"text":"組裝或與國內廠商合作,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":10419.89,"end":10420.31,"text":"主席"},{"start":10446.778,"end":10446.978,"text":"主席"},{"start":10469.369,"end":10496.619,"text":"我來講一下在臨時提案裡面有寫到工程會其實工程會它是處理有關政府採購法的部分所以它是不是會納入所謂的無人機反制系統專案小組因為它不可能求員兼裁判所以這個工程會其實放進去是比較奇怪然後第二個就是國科會上個禮拜也公布了說我們台灣的關鍵基礎設施或是關鍵基礎的部分它是要受限的"},{"start":10497.239,"end":10520.534,"text":"能不能跟國外廠商合作其實這些有關的限制條件都要放進去因為我們這邊講的無人機啊應該不是指一般的商用或者是遊戲用的無人機應該是軍用商規或是軍用軍規所以應該有更嚴格的限制不能就是這樣說我們可以這樣做這樣做我是覺得一定要符合台灣國內的法治基礎還有我們符合對國家安全的需求才可以我認為要加上這樣的限制條件比較合法所以按照經濟部提的內容嗎"},{"start":10527.728,"end":10535.756,"text":"那如果說像剛才委員提的話我們後面說要與廠商、國內廠商合作並遵守相關法令規定"},{"start":10544.011,"end":10566.939,"text":"原來你們的那個那個產業發展條例裡面就有相關法律規定我們要求的是要落實剛剛那個林委員講的是講那個關鍵技術現在最近我跟你講關鍵技術就是那個我們今天只要審的國防產業發展條例裡面根本你們不敢動因為計轉完全是零啦很難啦尤其是軍購的東西"},{"start":10572.247,"end":10594.719,"text":"我是覺得可以做一些那個經濟部你如果說這樣寫我們是能接受啦一定要跟國內廠商合作嘛阿不管是我們學他他學我們都一樣阿在地組裝也可以啦把代理商刪掉啦因為代理商看起來不太像是一個那個產製的廠商因為第一段有代理商然後再念一次來"},{"start":10601.505,"end":10601.785,"text":"國防部部長"},{"start":10638.163,"end":10660.341,"text":"我覺得法律規定那個原來就有法律規定的我們在體驗當中也不用寫到什麼法律規定主席我這邊我們是不是最後一段乾脆就把它刪掉好不好哪一段就是為免失去扶植國內產業發展本意我整段就是不用了嗎就留先第一段跟第二段"},{"start":10662.586,"end":10683.904,"text":"對原意這樣子我覺得這樣是否因為裡面還討論到其實這一次我們這個外導無人機的問題其實不是國防部也不是中科院其實問題出在經濟部啊我們現在搞這麼久拖這麼久那我們當時候規格也好或是其實技術技術技術技術全部都有那是廠商跟廠商之間不整合"},{"start":10684.565,"end":10708.268,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":10708.396,"end":10737.022,"text":"我們也不用去討論到國外了因為這國內就可以,國內的技術都夠問題出在於我們的政和啊經濟部在這件事情上面其實你責任是最大的耶我跟委員報告你現在你知道整個會期中科院跟國防部都被白罵了你知道嗎我跟委員報告我們是推薦世家有能力的廠商到國防部國防部後面怎麼進行採購那個是國防部在主責"},{"start":10740.387,"end":10755.179,"text":"那你為什麼現在招標是公開呢?除了納斯加之外其他經過你們推薦的,沒有經過你們推薦的可以來招標呢?你如果當時候願意推薦他,他就願意可以整合啊。這些東西當時候就整合不出來嘛。"},{"start":10756.977,"end":10784.717,"text":"報告委員那整合的事情後來我們本來是推薦世嘉是由仿照那個前面無人機是各建立個別分開招標我必須要講啦我也知道大家都努力為了這個國家好但這件事情這件事情搞太久了搞太久了好不好那沒關係文字上面這個臨時提案我請教一下召委這邊我們是否就留第一段跟第二段第三段感覺起來好像又開了一個空間出來"},{"start":10786.676,"end":10792.475,"text":"因為國內就可以處理了國內如果可以處理就已經原型機造出來了"},{"start":10799.608,"end":10817.995,"text":"主席,不好意思,我再問一下次長。就是說剛才聽經濟部的說法,是說原來經濟部推薦給國防部4家的時候是認為這4家都有能力來完成這個業務,這樣的一個要求嘛。是國防部自己把它要求是4家整合成兩個團隊的?沒錯。那國防部為什麼沒事要去幹這件事情幹什麼?"},{"start":10819.67,"end":10844.329,"text":"然後弄完之後然後最後弄不出來所以原來經濟部的意思是認為這四家各別都能夠延期就是做出這樣的反腐人就反而延期防禦的系統然後最後國防部再各別來評審你的建議原來是這樣子嗎?國防部有開個規格給我們然後我們由經濟部、國防部還有國科會跟工程會組了一個專案小組然後找專家去審查完之後"},{"start":10845.089,"end":10845.529,"text":"三、審查本院"},{"start":10863.854,"end":10870.621,"text":"因為經濟部的這個評估啊,這些廠商啊,原本這四家廠商,他沒有一家是完全全能力的。"},{"start":10887.837,"end":10888.057,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":10903.729,"end":10924.77,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":10924.77,"end":10954.77,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10955.219,"end":10980.973,"text":"因為你們現在把它解約了嘛對你們有沒有去問另外一組你們有沒有去問另外那兩家有沒有意願來做這個事情因為原來是科研案嘛對不對是一個委託研究案對啊就研究案嘛你們有沒有去問因為部長在現場是答應我們說那不然的話就是另外也鼓勵另外那兩家也參與啊不然一定很難說的啊可是過了一個禮拜之後你們案子公告解約啊我也不曉得為什麼"},{"start":10982.318,"end":11009.835,"text":"我們就是搞不清楚為什麼現在變成公開招標那我是覺得公開招標只要我們能獲得都可以但是呢這些技術如果每一家廠商標到的你有一些技術know how需要去做合作的因為兩兩合作都弄不出來的話我相信一定有一些關鍵技術嘛那一定要在地組裝經濟部說要在地組裝或國內廠商合作我們都沒有意見"},{"start":11011.724,"end":11015.753,"text":"至少相輔相成嘛,我們有一些技術移轉的內容"},{"start":11017.386,"end":11043.397,"text":"那兩兩,不管是那四家經濟部推薦的,到底按照國防部要求的資格是OK的,但是你要叫他們合作生產就都有問題啊,才會解約嘛。報委員,所以說後續的量產案我們就沒有去綁住,說用兩兩或是哪幾家廠商相互的合作,就是開放式的。簡單講他們就是不合作嘛。"},{"start":11043.717,"end":11045.779,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":11058.872,"end":11059.112,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":11075.923,"end":11090.44,"text":"對不對,不管你用什麼方式,當然用代理商要取消掉,不要用代理商不好聽也沒有關係,就是希望說你們國內廠商引進的國外的技術也能做計轉,也能合作,也能在地生產就好了。"},{"start":11092.688,"end":11111.113,"text":"主席,我請教一下我們第三段要留嗎?還是,我的認知啦,就是說這個,最後反而應該,真正應該要求的是時間啦,是時間啦。時間他們有預算壓力齁,為免失據,你說為免失據扶植國內生產,這個要拿掉嗎?對,按照經濟部這個,我是覺得可以吧。"},{"start":11116.334,"end":11141.22,"text":"主席,我可以建議了。坦白講,我們也沒那麼偉大啦,通過一個決議你們馬上就生得出來啦。那事實上這只是一個我們地產商的表態,要求你們能夠落實相關的,因為國內顯然這條路走不出去了嘛,都走不出一條路出來嘛。那如果再用代理商或是進口的方式能夠盡量的來,因為這樣來協助我們國內廠商的研發能力嘛。那我覺得這個修改後的條文,這個文字我覺得是主席的"},{"start":11141.98,"end":11142.28,"text":"國防部部長"},{"start":11173.108,"end":11174.909,"text":"因為我們今天早上吐人家"},{"start":11776.115,"end":11779.756,"text":"好,我們繼續開會。接下來請蔡司應委員詢答。謝謝主席。能不能請我們部長就備群台。好,邱部長請。"},{"start":11811.852,"end":11831.749,"text":"陳義綺"},{"start":11832.552,"end":11847.517,"text":"蕭祥雲、謝炳成、謝孟蘇、何姓盧、洪瑞陽、陸軍方、康義兵、胡志鵬、劉立啟。大概都在陸軍的相關單位。我為什麼這樣講的原因是因為這個事情都是最近這兩年"},{"start":11859.042,"end":11887.442,"text":"發生了一個狀況我先請問一下部長,這個案子是誰發現的?就我們官兵自己發覺有異議以後就報告然後這個起案就往下追,追出來什麼時候立案的?五月份我們今年五月掌握有不法事證我們就起案了然後你們有一個國安局嗎?有一個調查局那為什麼我問到調查局是說他們起案的不是你們起案的?"},{"start":11888.902,"end":11901.712,"text":"因為我們有接獲檢舉國安單位也有接獲檢舉我的了解是好像部長你要確認一下我了解到好像是檢調先了解這個案子之後才回過來通知國防部的相關單位的"},{"start":11903.063,"end":11906.805,"text":"我覺得這很重要,部長。你沒有要搶哪個先後,可是就我一個國務院的立場來看,我覺得這件事情很嚴重。所謂的很嚴重,第一個是軍中有保防系統。"},{"start":11929.073,"end":11948.194,"text":"他不是一個人欸他是一個蠻長的這樣的一個整體的這樣的一個共諜案如果不是軍中保防先發現的話而是由法務部調查局、桃園市調處跟國安工作站先來發現的話我覺得這問題很嚴重啊那我先發覺的我請我們這個保安局處處長"},{"start":11951.868,"end":11976.156,"text":"像委員報告我們在110年的時候國安單位有接獲到通報有一個檢舉人有檢獲到另外一條的線索那本部呢在110年有相關一條線索兩個我們報請國安局統合之後發現這兩個案的線索是有關聯性所以一起合併辦理來共同偵辦以上這是你的說明啦但是我理解到跟你完全顛倒"},{"start":11977.489,"end":11979.491,"text":"這件案子裡面其中幾個比較嚴重的,部長您內容都看過了沒有?"},{"start":11993.765,"end":12011.399,"text":"我覺得部長可以詳細看一下檢方的起訴書內容你們有提到什麼事情?提到化學兵的哨校把化學兵的相關編制表送給中國其中有一位謝孟蘇還跟中國講好了要駕駛CH-47"},{"start":12016.138,"end":12023.581,"text":"逃到中國去啊然後中間還到泰國去跟他們談過這些相關的事情然後呢還發虛擬貨幣給他然後呢還有一個何姓盧花防部的少校作戰官把花東防衛的國安計畫傳給中國還有一個洪瑞揚一零四旅的把陸軍司令部的訓練計畫等等送到中國去"},{"start":12045.882,"end":12061.175,"text":"還有一個叫抗疫兵的經防部的守衛大隊的情報官把金門作戰計畫的相關資料送到中國這些資料在起訴書寫得非常清楚然後呢有些都是你們核定的極機密120年以後才能夠解密的這真的是一個很軍中很嚴重的一個醜聞案因為這麼多人欸不是只有一個欸"},{"start":12073.911,"end":12087.235,"text":"透過一個所謂的陳玉琦他就可以聯絡到這麼多人有化學兵科的有航特部的、花防部的、軍防部的、裝甲旅的還有台南守備隊部長我覺得這個不是說我大概看過這段內容就好了我就要嚴查這件事情啊真的是要嚴查這件事情"},{"start":12103.347,"end":12126.44,"text":"紀書書裡面寫了非常多我看完之後真的是驚心動魄這個寫小說都沒有那麼會寫啊所以我為什麼第一個問題先問部長說這案子是誰發掘的如果今天國防部在這個事情是第二個後面才知道的而是從檢調法務部調查局跟國安公傳先了解的話"},{"start":12127.886,"end":12151.782,"text":"我們應該去了解到說我們軍中建立的這些保防的體系為什麼會這樣子一個中校的分隊長已經跟人家談到什麼時候要駕駛這個直升機過去了裡面有沒有人知道這件事情有沒有人知道這件事情國防部有第一時間就把位置換掉嗎然後移請調查嗎"},{"start":12153.499,"end":12181.049,"text":"還是檢調直接衝到營區裡面去抓人把人帶走了我們才知道說哦原來這個人有涉案或者是說軍防部的或者是我們那個花防部的把資料都送出去而且用什麼用telegram的軟體送出去我們不是軍中保防強調手機都不需要做管制嗎部長這個件事情我們以前都談過嘛為什麼他會用了這些東西還有用虛擬貨幣在使用"},{"start":12183.24,"end":12210.022,"text":"然後有規定營區不能帶其他非相關的手機都要保在都要保存起來嘛這裡面寫得很清楚啊對岸的中國相關人員還把特別的手機交給這些人他用這些特別的手機來翻拍然後還有人還裡面還寫到什麼還寫到說我們裡面有很多的相關的保管資料的軍官沒有注意資料就外洩出去了我不曉得是真的沒有注意還是故意沒有注意啊"},{"start":12213.615,"end":12240.435,"text":"我就問部長一件事情你說你有了解來你們這個案子到目前為止你們調查之後有多少極機密的案件需要重新修正我跟委員報告我們當初審查以後一有這種狀況我們第一個一送法辦以外先做一個職務調整該要撤就撤了這些人是被調查以後才法辦還是之前就先發掘以後一方面送辦再一方面我們行政局開始處理那這樣好部長你這樣講我想請教你一個問題啊那個謝孟蘇"},{"start":12243.402,"end":12267.467,"text":"是被剪掉逮捕之後才調整單位還是之前就調整單位?先調整吧。先調整。好,那第二個何信如勒?要一個一個講啊。你們知道嗎?我就問啊。是先調整單位還是先直接已經被逮捕之後才調整單位?知不知道?先調整了嗎?就你們這個叫...何信如啊。花防部少校座三官啊。"},{"start":12268.483,"end":12295.777,"text":"各位委員報告在這個獲悉保防安全他們相關的報告之後那我們是要不可以先有任何的動作那因為整個已經是進入減調的階段那但是所以你的意思是說你們已經知道他有問題但是你們沒有動他的職務就對了我們的意思是這樣子那為什麼剛才講了一個航特部就說先調職這又邏輯不通了吧"},{"start":12296.598,"end":12297.459,"text":"國防部首備大隊抗議兵呢?"},{"start":12320.902,"end":12336.908,"text":"包委員,我們在調查的過程當中有做相關的損害管控,每個個案不一樣,那方便的話我們會後派人跟你做說明。目前檢調查到的,我只講查到的,沒查到的我不知道,查到的機密跟極機密的部分總共多少件?你們有統計吧?有嗎?我只問總共多少件?"},{"start":12342.93,"end":12347.153,"text":"因為目前起訴之後現在高等法院還在偵查當中。"},{"start":12375.287,"end":12382.291,"text":"否則你怎麼損壞空管呢?國防部長我問到這邊我時間到了齁。國防部的人那麼多啦齁。我們每一個單位都有每個人負責的工作。"},{"start":12398.241,"end":12417.334,"text":"那我剛剛就提到就是說這個裡面有一些軍中的保防是重要的一件事情有沒有落實到營區的管理這是重要的事情比如像剛剛我們提到的為什麼telegram或有其他手機會帶到營區裡面去而且裡面講的是所謂的作戰官、情報官這個理論上是最應該要克尊相關我們規定的職務的人馬"},{"start":12418.655,"end":12446.311,"text":"好,那這些人他本身都違法的話那代表什麼?代表他的主觀觀可能會平常沒有在注意這件事情嘛那我想這些就是我們要了解的狀況第二個狀況是事情發生之後國安檢調的相關單位在調查完之後都有把這些檢調的起訴書寫出來我包括我們自己內部的調查裡面就要非常的清楚知道我有多少極機密的案件我有多少機密的案件有可能外洩甚至其實是不只的啊"},{"start":12447.15,"end":12466.423,"text":"因為他可能只講了這五個可能有六個、七個、八個另外的我們沒找到這些相關涉案的字就不講出來啊那在這種情況之下各單位你要不要重新修正這些都要做的事情嘛那我剛剛只是問了一個問題說有幾件案子要修正好,那也許覺得這又是機密了我只是說檢調期率上明天有寫多少件了啊"},{"start":12467.366,"end":12487.948,"text":"好,拜託部長,這件事情,從事情發生,剛好都是在任內的事情發生的,從110年開始,您就任部長之後開始錄製的這件事情發生,我認為這是非常重要的一件事情。那我也拜託部長,把這個起訴書的內容延期清楚。我的理解啦,你們現在去調相關的整個的資料應該是可以調得到啦。"},{"start":12489.371,"end":12516.235,"text":"我建議你們把除了起訴書之外相關檢調的偵查報告內容還有加上我們國防部自己內部調查都把它彙整清楚因為我覺得這個案子實在太誇張太嚴重了裡面幾個小兵小官士官跟阿兵哥說拍影片我覺得那就算了裡面有很多的校級軍官跟衛級軍官就拍了我們的重要的集機秘密資料把它傳給中國去這真的是很莫名其妙的事情啊"},{"start":12517.868,"end":12531.396,"text":"所以我要如果沒有發現的不曉得有多少件所以拜託部長這件事情好好的瞭解調查清楚以上謝謝謝謝蔡委員接下來請林靜儀委員詢答好謝謝謝謝主席我們麻煩國防部邱部長邱部長請"},{"start":12556.448,"end":12579.932,"text":"民眾對於我們的國防是越來越關注但是我也相信之前包含你還有退伏會我們的主委都說多數的都是忠心為國家的只有少數的害群之馬可是如果害群之馬的案件一直頻繁的出現而且沒有辦法很快的速度讓民眾看到軍方的決心的話那事情就很麻煩了"},{"start":12581.453,"end":12601.051,"text":"所以剛剛蔡師傑委員講的是一個共諜案我現在還有一個另外一個是國防大學的泄密案那國防大學這個案子這個教授他主持的是我們先進系統工程研究中心尤其是牽涉到我國非常重要這些相關的精密的這個部件精密的這些系統研究"},{"start":12601.992,"end":12626.915,"text":"但是根據報導的調查現在出來的資料當然你們等一下一定會講說調查當中啦我先看現在他的狀況是說他掌管的這些產業需求跟科技整合然後在然後自己在開民間公司開民間公司跟中國技術合作然後董事會在學校裡面開而且這個過程以媒體報導的話是十年啊"},{"start":12628.308,"end":12647.717,"text":"那我很意外的事情是說一個我們國防大學掌管我們這麼多重要產業需求跟系統研發的這個所謂計劃主持人他可以在外面開公司這個公司跟中國有關係跟中國有合作而且他的公司董事會在校內召開這個學校內部控管是怎麼控管的"},{"start":12648.721,"end":12678.073,"text":"所以我跟委員報告這的確啊說我們要很大一個疏忽啊只是檢討但我跟同仁講不講光檢討就了了我作為已經移送法辦了例外的行政調查行政懲處我們同步在做這一位他移送法辦嘛對不對那行政懲處對校內其他相關人員有沒有行政懲處一定要行政懲處我們把這個相關人員從他主觀領導職到他業管的幕僚通通抓出來那該辦就辦吧不是部長那如果"},{"start":12678.593,"end":12681.234,"text":"所以這東西又很嚴重,所以今天早上我特別有強調這一點"},{"start":12702.023,"end":12702.744,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":12716.66,"end":12737.058,"text":"對於你對於很多事情態度都很強硬可是這個十年這樣子你不能簡單說我們都還要追嘛這個就已經都在查了嘛不能這麼簡單講我對這件事情也都很強硬啊所以他本來沒有要送法班我叫你不要囉嗦先送法班再講本來沒有要送法班是什麼意思本來要檢討查明以後再這樣子我想那要等什麼勒"},{"start":12738.553,"end":12739.914,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":12755.367,"end":12773.188,"text":"但是各位在軍方服務嘛,我們在軍事系統裡面這麼多重要的機密在他手上,你等到來,你等到一個程度我們都不知道要出去多少,再來這個東西會不會消滅掉一些相關的機證嘛。那我再請問回來,現在他手頭上賞管的這些相關的資料這10年,你們現在手頭上掌握有沒有東西跑出去?"},{"start":12774.892,"end":12797.514,"text":"現在有查嗎?現在最新的這些資料跑出多少東西了?各位委員 報告他目前從96年到今年為止還有68件的研究案但目前查查都是沒有洩漏出去但是我們還是會請警教單位來沒有洩漏出去他手上 他那麼乾淨這邊有研究案這邊開公司公司這邊跟中國有合作我分得那麼清楚給中國一些簡單的小東西然後我自己這邊研究國家大的東西這麼厲害?"},{"start":12799.06,"end":12815.956,"text":"根委員報告他在接那個研究案的時候都是會簽署保密協定而且他的研究的等級是屬於一個初步的一個學術研究一個範圍是跟國家機密那個國家科技機密是不會有什麼叫做初步的研究範圍可以解釋一下嗎"},{"start":12818.672,"end":12837.503,"text":"所以你們講說它是一個先進系統工程研究中心根本沒有先進就對了你那意思是這樣子報告委員有關於學校或者相關的研究機構接的這個相關的研究案按照我們整個科技備變水準的等級總共分成九級其中第一級到第三級都叫做基礎研究"},{"start":12838.243,"end":12842.164,"text":"他這邊承包國家很多研究案欸所以你們這個研究案都是最基礎的都是沒有先進製程的都是沒有前瞻性的"},{"start":12864.002,"end":12866.703,"text":"所以你們現在調查的資料裡面你們現在的意思就是說你們只調查的事情是他不應該違法兼職這樣子而已?"},{"start":12880.43,"end":12883.913,"text":"部長,我請問的事情是他現在所參與的案子裡面有沒有哪一些你們現在競速的正在往下去"},{"start":12908.931,"end":12937.239,"text":"主段或者是知道哪些東西已經洩露出去了,你們手上有沒有這樣的記錄跟資料?委員現在這68案經過查都是屬於三級以下,但是他還牽扯到兩部分,第一個有沒有把這些的成果轉成他私人的用,或者是甚至跟剛剛講對岸的相關關係,這個要查。那第二個就是他有關於跟大陸人士的接觸這些相關爭議專案的部分,這也是後面要查查的重點。"},{"start":12937.739,"end":12940.76,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":12959.287,"end":12979.705,"text":"我們希望你們自己在這邊有一個你們自己的系統很快的、盡速的、最快的速度去把這些可能的風險去做調查或者是控管這個案子我最不能接受的是整整十年你如果說這一兩年你們整個系統上還抓不到原來是最近的事情我不會怪你們的怪到這麼嚴重你整整十年的話那這樣子"},{"start":12980.786,"end":13003.775,"text":"大家來講你跟我那麼輕鬆講說沒有啦他這68案都很簡單的案子我覺得這樣不能接受這就是他的態度上面來講表示這個人態度有問題啊我們從來沒有講很輕鬆啊這樣也敷衍我們把這個人看得很嚴重你們看得很嚴重只是你現在告訴我們說他接觸到都不是重要的事情我就問幹部我們整個哪個人能夠接受這種狀況沒有輕鬆那該辦人辦人嘛我們現在重辦就要槍斃掉我們也期望這樣子"},{"start":13010.273,"end":13016.615,"text":"部長你在國會上面你這樣直接講槍斃掉這三個字我想你這個是宣誓性發言吧?對我們的認識來講的話主語的變叛國嘛這不就叛國嗎?我們這麼多的案子裡面我們都不斷提醒你們民眾對你們的觀感那你現在講叛國一旦我們那時候跟你講說有些事情有叛國的風險你又講的說沒有你認為沒有?"},{"start":13033.542,"end":13046.225,"text":"我沒講我沒有認為沒有。這個每一樣事情我要查證。在這種事情陳五剛委員講的十年了,我也沒辦法交代啊。所以我認為講完全要依法就辦,而且辦得越重越好。"},{"start":13047.299,"end":13074.176,"text":"在辦得越重越好的過程裡面其實也需要你們軍方去在這個過程中你們要提出相關的證據相關的資訊而且你們要提出相關的態度在這個過程還是要講辦得越重越好當然是這樣子你現在這樣講但是到時候在辦的時候你們提出來的證據是不是能夠讓他辦得越重越好是我們非常疑惑的事情好我最後再給我一點點時間因為我還是很關注我們在所謂替代一教招的部分我知道替代一教招是屬於內政部管理但是我先在這邊請問一下部長"},{"start":13075.217,"end":13083.429,"text":"提待役到時候提待役的教招或提待役的訓練最終也是希望能夠補強我們的全民動員的時候的這個相關的軍事戰備能力嘛對不對部長"},{"start":13087.038,"end":13104.475,"text":"我知道沒有在軍中啊一旦發生戰亂或者是嚴重的危機的時候就像水災的時候通常也是請軍方來幫助民眾嘛那回過頭來我們現在講一旦國家發生緊急危難的時候不會全部都是軍人在做事嘛"},{"start":13105.416,"end":13122.221,"text":"對不對?你們在全民動員裡面有全民動員這件事情就是全部的人民都要來幫助國家保護國家嘛所以我現在請問你的議題是說站在當緊急狀況之下全部的人民都來一起協助軍人保護國家的時候有一群人叫替代役嘛是吧?"},{"start":13123.449,"end":13148.674,"text":"他平常不是你管 我知道嘛 我要問內政部嘛但是我現在問你的事情是站在國防部的立場全部的人一起來保護國家你們是不是也至少會期待說那我有一塊是什麼我國防部沒辦法做的是替代役來幫我們處理的嘛 應該是吧是嘛 我就問你這句話而已嘛那好 那我講是嘛那我請問說這個時候你們在國防部的認知裡面替代役的這一批"},{"start":13150.049,"end":13169.208,"text":"他們能夠協助的是哪些事?你們期待他們幫你們補足你們國防體系、國軍體系沒有辦法補足的哪些事?除了作戰以外,任何對我們只要能夠把我們主任務、作戰任務完全由國軍來支援、來做,不要再去扯到別的地方去,還有我們派人的,我都樂見啊。"},{"start":13171.59,"end":13195.907,"text":"我一直強調我想這個權動署在這邊我這兩年一直在問的事情是如果國防部不能很清楚的來協助其他權動相關的部會去提出說我國防部負責這些事情某一件事情要麻煩你麻煩你某一個部會成為我們的後援back up我們如果沒有辦法出現這麼明確的一個訊息的話那這些相關部會就是自己想辦法在那邊做嘛我為什麼要這樣問那個副司長嘛醫生司"},{"start":13200.572,"end":13214.61,"text":"我先請問你們的替代役叫招著重EMT救護能力所以你們的假設是說一旦發生緊急戰端或者是緊急的這些狀況我們的替代役我們最缺的是醫療人員是不是?"},{"start":13215.831,"end":13243.792,"text":"我想我們這個部分替代的部分就是做後勤的輔助性工作對,所以你說你們手中EMT嘛我請問所以你們的意思就是說一旦發生這些事情全台灣當時最缺乏的是整個整個在軍方最需要的後援是EMT嗎我們這個部分我們把替代的備役分成兩組治安維護組跟防災救護組那防災救護組他就是負責災害的搶救跟緊急救護的部分"},{"start":13244.833,"end":13269.429,"text":"那災害搶救在你們的訓練裡面你們怎麼做?所以呢我們災害救護的部分跟緊急救護的部分所以我們著重EMT-1就是緊急救護因為他們從109年開始他們每個替代人在成功年已經取得了EMT-1的證照像這一次我們109到現在3年因為前面疫情的關係我們沒辦法把他招回來訓練112年已經滿3年了我們招回來就是讓他的緊急救護證照的技術"},{"start":13275.853,"end":13288.439,"text":"我沒有反對大家都學會緊急照護我現在問的事情是你們把替代役招回來訓練EMT-1這裡面有一些人他可能已經取得相關的智能了我們現在有一些人在自訓"},{"start":13289.64,"end":13303.614,"text":"第二個事情是,他們訓練你的重點放在這裡,所以你期待他們未來一旦發生狀況的時候,他們就會來做這件事情的。你們對於替代役的認知跟概念是希望他們這麼做。你們當初在招替代役的時候全部都是醫療替代役嗎?"},{"start":13304.568,"end":13306.869,"text":"我現在是看到你們在媒體上說你們都做EMT-1"},{"start":13321.903,"end":13344.918,"text":"我想我們今年做的主要的部分就是跟委員報告就是說因為我們一百...我最後講一件事情因為我超過時間我不要delay大家的時間我講一個事情啦今年台中我們也做了相關的這個外安演習嘛對不對我也有去親自去看我也看了大家很認真沒有錯一旦緊急狀況之下好那個什麼馬上設立那個分類戰救傷這個什麼我們講的減傷分類戰減傷分類戰馬上分類分一分救護車去醫院了對不對"},{"start":13352.504,"end":13371.179,"text":"請問一下,假設我們今天發生戰災,醫院是正常運作嗎?我先問你,你用一個一般人腦袋告訴我,發生戰災的時候醫院是正常運作嗎?所以你認為這種狀況之下,因有因有送去醫院,他們就能夠正常的被運作、被照顧嗎?"},{"start":13375.496,"end":13387.222,"text":"大家不要只看到你們覺得我這樣講我再次強調替代役這一邊我們要把人家回來招訓我們一直強調很重要第一他們要清楚知道他們怎麼跟國防部配合"},{"start":13388.328,"end":13416.459,"text":"我一直強調所以我今天全動數署長也在這部長也在這我已經講非常多次了國防部不要一個態度說我一旦發生事情你們就小心我們自己會把自己的國家保護好我們相信你們會把國家保護好我們希望的是相關的其他人員不但不要添亂還可以成為你們的back up那這個時候你們就必須要清楚讓各部會知道我們平常有什麼人可以用一旦發生事情的時候這些人會出來承擔原來社會正常運作之下的什麼位置"},{"start":13417.748,"end":13432.468,"text":"所以不要自己想想說那我們就來訓練EMT-1好了這個到時候我就問你嘛一旦發生這種狀況你EMT-1這些首位後輩他們都會乖乖出來當EMT-1嗎?然後乖乖出來當EMT-1檢查分類完哦好高興我分類完了醫院那邊是什麼狀況你們知道嗎?"},{"start":13434.485,"end":13460.381,"text":"整個你們完全就是一人只做一段的我還是這樣講權動署這邊我對你們的要求很高這也不是一個署長可以完全承諾我們去跟其他跨部會做這種整合的今天我在講就是你看你們光站在我面前內政部跟國防部你們兩邊根本就是對於替代這一群可以來協助國家在戰災或者是緊急狀況之下可以做什麼事情的根本沒有彼此之間的合作概念啊"},{"start":13461.221,"end":13462.182,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們平常在訓練當中各有各的部門,各有各的項目,我們把它給做好。"},{"start":13483.9,"end":13511.135,"text":"但堅強,如果一旦作戰又入了,那我現在我就反問吧,假如在沒有敵情的狀況下,很平常﹖我們當然知道平常所以不用嘛﹖我們要訓練,把它訓練好,作戰有其他額外會干擾的。所以作戰額外干擾的,我們今天做這些訓練,那一旦發生作戰額外的狀況之下,我剛剛講,JPT到底你平常做這件事情在幹什麼?我們先把目前平健的狀況下把它做好嘛,做好以後,其他狀況加進去,如果在急救中,炸彈來了怎麼辦?"},{"start":13512.692,"end":13531.16,"text":"所以這個東西就是我一直說你們這個替代役的訓練裡面今天我沒有怪你們任何一個部會我是說你們兩個部會之間的整合跟任務方向拜託要用這個方式來看我們的訓練這些年輕人回來受訓他們期待的是受到對國家有幫助的訓練"},{"start":13532.04,"end":13549.493,"text":"各位委員沒有必要拜託,全眾署成立目的何在?就整合各部會嗎?全眾署你有整合各部會嗎?所有的精進方案、訓練各方面,我們大小會議都有參與,都密切合作,跟委員報告。你們給了他們什麼資料?事後跟林委員講一下吧。"},{"start":13557.028,"end":13560.293,"text":"議員,你們在這邊跟我講都說有,我剛剛這樣問就是沒有。我不要占大家時間,謝謝主席。好,詳細的那個意義的這一塊來講,其實...是是是"},{"start":13571.023,"end":13571.843,"text":"謝謝主席。麻煩請部長。請部長請"},{"start":13608.35,"end":13634.439,"text":"大家好部長早辛苦了我們回到今天的主題因為一起回到一年之後不只是一年一起相關的議題要去處理它對於我們現有的一些相關的招募的一些管道跟制度的衝擊我相信要一併來討論這也是本席今天希望從這個角度來切入今天在討論當中有一個所謂國防學士班剛剛我們也討論過了這個所謂的要停照這個可能的決定"},{"start":13635.379,"end":13650.072,"text":"部長,我請問一下,109年開始,現在招到現在為止,第一個,第一次招的畢業沒有?第一批畢業沒有?畢業了嘛,第一批招的畢業了嘛。畢業幾個?三個。你們覺得他們表現如何?"},{"start":13655.211,"end":13682.87,"text":"現在目前在部隊服役都還算正常不是正常是最低標了表現如何因為這都是國立大學的學生跟委員報告他現在目前畢業7月1號畢業之後到分科學校受訓所以還沒下部隊還沒下部隊受訓的狀況都正常好我現在問的就是說因為坦白講國防學士班是一個很特別的因為他都是在國立學校而且都是很多是頂尖的學校沒錯吧是所以當時鎖定這些不是以量為原則"},{"start":13683.991,"end":13696.307,"text":"是以此為原則喔把他們帶到這麼好的學校去然後帶到部隊來希望他們對我們部隊的專業的訓練能夠有所幫助跟ROTC不太一樣沒錯吧還是說就一般兵來用好"},{"start":13698.164,"end":13713.416,"text":"當時我們設定國防學士班的目的何在?就這麼簡單?是為了補充你的量的不足還是希望真的找到又有專業即便量不多的這些人?各位委員報告我們是希望廣開整個軍官的來源所以有就好是不是?有就好是不是?"},{"start":13714.571,"end":13737.424,"text":"要有專業當然就更好嘛對啊科技方面為什麼當初理工學院跟清大他們會交案沒有錯嘛 這部長講的是重點啊我們講的但是後來遭到的狀況不然嘛沒有部長我現在不是問遭的狀況我現在是產品出來之後好不好嘛如果這三個是好的很優秀台大的交大清大出來就算三個我繼續辦我坦白講三十個當然更好啦"},{"start":13743.263,"end":13762.804,"text":"所以到底我現在講就是說陸陸續續會畢業那這幾個人即便是少數到底對我們國家戰力也好或專業這塊有沒有提升請你們繼續觀察好不好不要因為他們這個班子可能最後不見了已經夭折了然後就算了就把這篇用完就算了我覺得很可惜啊"},{"start":13763.991,"end":13780.609,"text":"部長同意我這個想法吧?同意啊,我們也希望它好了嘛。對不對齁?對。然後其實主席剛才有一點很重要,就是到底是制度設計不夠好,還是這個制度本身就不應該存在,這的確可以討論啦。我們舉個例子來講,對這些學生來講,高中畢業學生,這個制度最大誘因在哪裡?哈?這個,大家覺得最大誘因在哪裡?"},{"start":13786.738,"end":13812.767,"text":"根委員報告就是說當初設立的目的啊是希望說他們補充軍官的來源然後如果說不是不是我現在問的是對這些想要報名的學生你覺得他最大誘因在哪裡為什麼我想選擇這個我不是ROTC甚至不是讀政期生為什麼你覺得他誘因在哪裡他們希望能夠有專業發展就是說不是啦不是啦坦白說你們就沒有從需求裡面去思考讀國立大學好的學校沒錯吧"},{"start":13815.177,"end":13840.516,"text":"國立考試校一方面他平常生活還有他的教育我們都有資助另外一方面講說他可以一樣在文學校發揮到財力的誘因我跟你講跟ROTC差不多了對差不多嘛一樣的幾乎一樣的所以你如果ROTC跟學士班來比的話其他誘因都一樣啊唯一的不同是什麼ROTC很多廣開嘛可是國防學士班什麼很多的重點的這個國立學校"},{"start":13841.604,"end":13869.6,"text":"就算我五年當安兵之後我還有交大的文憑我有台大的文憑我有清大的文憑沒錯吧這才是誘因啊所以如果你只從你國防部的角度思考說啊這個到底能不能招到學生你沒有從學生的角度思考這是很大的問題喔我知道但是不是所有學校都是國立吧有部分啦齁我再舉個例子啦齁制度上有一個很大的問題喔是一般年輕人不敢"},{"start":13871.141,"end":13900.004,"text":"去參加國防學士班,知道什麼嗎?退訓就退學。沒錯吧?他如果讀到一半不讀了,抱歉,台大也讀不下去了。沒錯啊。我知道嘛。所以這些學生不是一般學生。因為他可能只要有一天他不想走軍人這條路了,不想服內役了,抱歉,兩頭空。"},{"start":13901.772,"end":13902.012,"text":"司法部長"},{"start":13921.476,"end":13921.996,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":13937.318,"end":13955.474,"text":"因為你們自己講吧投資跟效益無法滿足其實我覺得不是投資跟效益的問題那是只從你們角度來看所以投資效益我辦那麼辛苦陳辦那麼辛苦所以招三個、四個重點是你從來沒有面對一個問題就是這一學生在選擇這個制度不是RTC不是正期生的時候我講白一點比讀軍軍官學校還風險高"},{"start":13959.155,"end":13975.611,"text":"所以我跟委員報告為什麼當初我們這班隊剛剛講的你大學教授副校長自己定的對不對我們並沒有講要順水推舟我以前既然能夠這麼有把握我們當然樂意投資可是這幾年所看到的成果算不好嘛"},{"start":13975.831,"end":13976.731,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":14004.488,"end":14018.262,"text":"你們現在要改我也沒意見啦你要廢掉我也沒意見我現在講的就是說我們真的面對問題不要只從國防部的本位主義我的投資效益如何我的成效如何一個制度的設計就跟ROTC也是一樣你要回想一下這些學生為什麼"},{"start":14020.131,"end":14020.231,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":14038.618,"end":14039.719,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":14058.623,"end":14082.729,"text":"所以這個制度面的問題坦白講當時在規劃跟設計的時候的確有很大的問題我沒有怪部長或是我們的這些國防部的同仁當時的設計的時候真的最缺的就是那個所謂學生端他們的需求跟誘因當然啦你現在很多訓練的課程包括入伍訓練然後大學階段的軍事訓練在寒暑假坦白講很ㄍㄧㄤㄟ等於他幾乎沒有寒暑假"},{"start":14086.701,"end":14087.101,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":14107.185,"end":14124.162,"text":"因為一旦當我們又恢復到一年一起之後我擔心就是上次也有請問過部長會不會衝擊到ROTC的吸收的這個情況因為你們看嘛雖然說你們都講說這個造貨率百分之百不錯那是因為你們計畫是逐年下降啊"},{"start":14125.339,"end":14125.979,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":14156,"end":14156.6,"text":"李德維委員"},{"start":14182.937,"end":14198.321,"text":"議員好是部長先請教一下因為當然我們現在部隊的邊線比大概不到八成我講的第一類戰鬥部隊的邊線比目前是不到八成那在這個部分明年這個當"},{"start":14201.442,"end":14204.003,"text":"因為當初我們要做這個延長的變一年一期的時候已經講得很清楚"},{"start":14221.087,"end":14223.729,"text":"大概預計明年這個恢復成為一年這個議期的我們的兵員大概有多少?"},{"start":14247.708,"end":14248.209,"text":"第二批的比如說一月"},{"start":14267.008,"end":14272.472,"text":"我們再回來談一下國防學士班跟ROTC請部長看一下你們今天報告的第六頁部長可以來參閱一下"},{"start":14292.048,"end":14315.58,"text":"你們有一個國防學士班與ROTC班對的說明表本席看完其實真正最大的差異您看一下其實就是畢業派職國防學士班底下的議期、補助經費、年度、預算需求都差異有限但是畢業派職有差別"},{"start":14316.707,"end":14338.987,"text":"國防學士班是優先以專業領域派職而ROTC是以戰鬥、戰鬥資源官科派職為主所以在這個部分當然現在我們了解光部的政策基本上是國防學士班停招所以是不是乾脆你把ROTC擴大了把他的畢業派職從戰鬥、戰鬥資源官科擴大成為專業領域"},{"start":14344.946,"end":14358.416,"text":"您可以考慮這樣子的事情嗎?因為其實在底看我們看那個補助經費的部分啊那個國防學士班是四年那ROTC是三年半那其他的學雜費、生活津貼、文具費"},{"start":14359.625,"end":14377.219,"text":"其實它差異真的有限那當然我們剛剛講因為那個國防學士班這個合作的學校當然有些也有一些這個考量或者這個成效有限所以是不是乾脆您覺得可以考慮國防部在這個部分可以把ROTC擴大"},{"start":14378.484,"end":14406.656,"text":"成為另外一個國防學士班您覺得有可行嗎?可以,委員這個提議很好啊我們已經看出來國防學士班因為他受限就那個範圍而且他蠻科的所以來的人不多那ROTC現在除了他這個到一般部隊做這些兵科軍官以外又給他增加一個你也可以投入專業的待會對他來講絕對有利吧所以這個我們絕對可以把它加進去的所以這部分"},{"start":14408.91,"end":14432.161,"text":"建議部長跟國防部在這個部分來思考一下所以請您來參考另外評價一下最近中國大陸發射了幾次的火箭前面三次當它發射了以後國防部的新聞稿裡面都說對於台灣影響不大沒有安全的疑慮"},{"start":14433.281,"end":14459.824,"text":"第四次的時候到沒有特別談到,第四次的新聞稿就沒有特別談到就是說這個部分,那請教一下他們第四次的火箭發射有特別的的不一樣或者什麼那個嗎?沒有,就對於我們就說,它因為發射在我們南端的好像是200海里左右上空,而且想說好像是已經到了大巨層了嘛,所以也一樣沒有影響,但我們"},{"start":14461.547,"end":14484.771,"text":"沒有講的話,好像特別強調這句話,因為事實上有很多飛彈發射以後,影響不影響,它只要有發射一個禁航區,帶有那個周邊,都有可能,所以我們也不能把話講太滿了。所以以後不光這一次,可能以後我們也會強調這個,我們就告知才能發射火箭了,可能是探空啊,"},{"start":14485.607,"end":14511.062,"text":"我們就做這個表達,對我們這個地方所有緊急危害的狀況,告知以後我們有緊急的狀況處理的方法,我們按照這個方法來做吧。好,了解。那當然這個我就說大家都非常關心我們召委今天特別提的這個事情,當然請國防部特別再來注意,好不好?好,謝謝。謝謝召委,謝謝部長。謝謝李德文文。"},{"start":14513.325,"end":14513.485,"text":"求陳議員、陸委員巡檔"},{"start":14535.222,"end":14552.438,"text":"九月下旬邱部長首度有證實我國對大陸有徵收雷達跟國際情報的交流可以清楚掌握到東南沿海的共軍動態另外您上次也說如果中共要對台進行軍事行為部隊必須事先大規模的調動"},{"start":14553.739,"end":14580.482,"text":"這個部分一定會被偵測到但是部長請問我們現在目前這些作為是不是已經足夠爭取應變的時間保障台灣的安全就你目前在大選前夕你現在掌握的狀況目前我們要看有沒有一個爭後當然目前沒有什麼特別的爭後但它有這個聯合軍演聯合戰這個警行戰備警行都是一個好像週期性的大概每個月都會有"},{"start":14581.923,"end":14608.481,"text":"我們掌握就這個我們也不期望有什麼異常的狀況發生所以我們持續密切注意那接續這個問題對於昨天有某位副總統參選人提出當選之後要單向派軍事觀察員赴中國常駐以確保台灣的安全請問邱部長您認為需不需要派觀察員常駐大陸這樣能不能保障台灣的安全我跟委員報告這選舉議題我們通常不做任何評論因為第一我就"},{"start":14611.963,"end":14638.465,"text":"其實講說國軍是一向就是行政本來就中立的嘛因為我們選舉了以後拋出議題就要我們國防部表達意見我認為不妥了就算我有看法但我絕對不會這樣公開這樣表達我個人任何的看法就跟平常有很多學者專家討論國防議題我不僅講我很尊重他們做專業的人他有立論基礎但國防部從來不會去參與討論一樣道理尤其在選舉期間"},{"start":14640.646,"end":14648.171,"text":"對任何人發表任何言論,只要跟國軍有關的,我國防部部長代表。接下來這個問題就跟國軍有直接的關係。我想就針對這個共諜的案件。近日這個國防大學證實"},{"start":14657.617,"end":14686.833,"text":"目前這個理工學院的教授葛明德主持先進系統工程研究中心這個部分是中管國軍國防產業需求跟科技的整合但是他卻在外開設公司並且與中國的技術合作那公司的董事會更在校內召開相關的作為這個會影響相關的國安危機那國防大學表示已經成立專案小組啟動調查如果葛元有涉不法絕不寬帶這是目前這個國防部的一個說法"},{"start":14687.073,"end":14706.922,"text":"那我想就叫邱部長還有另外一個議題就是說今天有媒體報導國防部軍事安全總隊及高檢署今年7月底破獲近十餘年來最大商人謝炳成發展軍中的共諜網案這個是今天稍早的消息那竟然發現史無前例的架機叛逃的計畫"},{"start":14707.842,"end":14733.227,"text":"那前航特部的謝信忠孝計劃跟謝秉成共諜以大約新台幣4.8億元及泰國永久居留權為他的代價趁今年6月大陸軍演的時候山東號航艦行進台海中線之際秘密駕駛CH-47的直升機叛逃並且降落山東艦幸好在叛逃前遭到逮捕以致他這個計劃失敗那針對這兩個"},{"start":14735.808,"end":14755.786,"text":"案子,請問邱部長你目前掌握的狀況如何,要不要在這邊說明一下。我坦白跟各位,我跟委員報告,也跟我們同仁報告,對這件事情我講得我相當沉痛,這國軍在這一方面一個很基本的概念,對國家的防衛,對一個單位的一個忠誠度啊,遭到這種這種這是蠻"},{"start":14759.189,"end":14760.85,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":14777.145,"end":14800.991,"text":"那我想實際的管理面的部分包含就是說這位葛教授是不是有涉及國家安全利益跟機密的人員那尤其這種涉及國家核心關鍵技術的業務人員他有受到什麼規範禁止前往大陸的相關對象那國防部跟國防大學的這個管制從這個案子看出來他相對來講是鬆散的這中間的這個管理漏洞要怎麼樣去補強"},{"start":14802.311,"end":14826.077,"text":"所以我這個案子我已經採取兩個步驟具體的措施?具體的,第一個雙法辦因為剛剛委員所提的幾個問題只要跟法有關的交給法辦他引經據典該辦他就辦他就第一個第二個我不能講我等待法辦結果以後我們才能同步我們在行政調查只要跟他這個人有關的跟他是工作有關的"},{"start":14827.037,"end":14849.612,"text":"我們相關牽涉這個人員,我們展開行政方面應該要警告人們。我想,嚴判絕不寬戴,這個都是事後,但是事前的預防機制、防堵機制、相關法令的一個完善,這個才是預防勝於治療的一個主要的重點。那我想就教邱部長,那國防部現職的軍官,哪一些人到底可以前往中國大陸,哪一些人不能前往。"},{"start":14849.892,"end":14873.117,"text":"那尤其是退離職的人員前往中國大陸需不需要事先申請那相關的嚴格規範比如說有涉及到國家安全機密或核心技術這個部分你們後續的這個除了法制上的完善但是行政管理還有相關的管理機制要怎麼樣去強化我覺得這個是重點我希望你在這邊說明一下那另外一個部分我們希望國防部可以在"},{"start":14873.857,"end":14891.893,"text":"透過這兩個案子在內部的內控管理因為我想不管任何的這個法辦或是絕不寬大的態度這都是事後的一個處理的方式但是如何有效的機制管理這個才是事情根本的重點那是不是請部長說明一下這要怎麼強化後續的管理機制跟管理漏洞"},{"start":14892.433,"end":14912.596,"text":"基本上我跟委員報告,就是說原則上現役軍人沒有哪一個可以同意到大陸地區的,現在都沒有。那退役以後,看他當初在軍中服役、在服勤當中的職務、審理等級等等,各有規範。那目前我們平常都在做的。"},{"start":14913.217,"end":14933.538,"text":"陳副國防委員有提到,保防這個工作我們真的在很加強,所以最近我並不幫我推責任,有幾件事情真的是保安人員發覺了以後,深入來調查的。但我們不以此為滿意啦,有這幾件大案子一連串出來,這國防部的確要痛點是痛點。"},{"start":14933.558,"end":14936.459,"text":"總體盤點提出一個建議請邱部長、國防部儘速針對這兩個案子盤點相關法制上的漏洞尤其是要針對從事國防事務限職及退離職人員申請進入中國大陸地區的作業規定要做嚴加管控"},{"start":14954.845,"end":14971.372,"text":"對於前往大陸的高階人員及接觸機密跟專利的人士來去做相關的一個嚴格管制,尤其這次葛元的事情必須從重處罰,下部為例完全杜絕。那針對這個相關的法令的一個作業規定,應該要去做總體的一個盤點。"},{"start":14973.133,"end":14996.83,"text":"第二、針對今天的重點,兵役延長的配套機制。我想本席之前也在這邊提出兵役延長的整個配套跟整備狀況的質詢。包含針對徵集訓練作業、分派作業跟服役期間的提繳退休金的作業,其實陸陸續續國防部都有做,我們也知道慢慢的再去完善。但是到底一無一要不要上戰場,"},{"start":14997.551,"end":15021.527,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":15021.627,"end":15043.074,"text":"我想就教邱部長除了主戰部隊之外備戰部隊包含義務役、平日的訓練要不要做好上戰場的準備那相關的訓練內容有沒有去做一個調整那另外一個部分因為近年來受到少子女化的影響那國軍招募人才嚴重不足那這個其實是可見的未來未來在相關能力的補充有沒有具體的一個作為"},{"start":15043.974,"end":15068.911,"text":"我跟委員報告,我這邊我要再次強調一次,因為以前我也在很多公開場合我也表達過,臺灣防疫的作戰,我們不期望它會成真。但我們平常要做的準備工作就是防制、避免這種事發生。但如果一旦發生了,我想臺灣就那麼大的地方,不大。一旦發生了臺灣防疫作戰,槍炮一響,沒有前方後方。"},{"start":15070.192,"end":15084.204,"text":"所以我要求我們所有同仁要有一個觀念,處處是戰場,實時做訓練。就為了這一個不期望發生的事情一旦發生了,我們好歹也要做一些很積極的準備。"},{"start":15085.965,"end":15108.145,"text":"第二、有些人的表達方法我不了解,我也沒有任何評論。比如說我們對戰場的界定,可能一般是想,我只要在牆裏面,外面如果打亂,外面是戰場,我裏面不是。但我已經講了,颱風發生之後的槍爆影響,沒有前方後方之分。"},{"start":15109.086,"end":15135.528,"text":"我想全民國防除了我們自主的防衛意識之外其實各國也都在看那如何精實訓練的內容跟保障異難的這個權益的一個前提之下能夠落實前線國防跟民防甚至中央地方政府的一個合作我想這個未來還有很長的路要走我希望部長能夠繼續堅持住應該要把這個相關的細節包含全民國防手冊的完善還有這個中央地方政府的相關溝通"},{"start":15137.99,"end":15158.1,"text":"以及藝南的心理建設還有我們國軍志願役相關的一個權益也不要讓他們有這個相對剝奪感最重要是重新提振國軍弟兄的榮譽感跟士氣我覺得這是非常重要的希望部長可以繼續努力謝謝就我們的本務工作應該要做謝謝委員謝謝邱成源委員接下來請何昭偉詢問"},{"start":15169.557,"end":15175.322,"text":"謝謝主席、謝謝趙偉。我們是不是先有請我們部長還有我們的經濟部署長、聯署長。謝謝。邱部長請。還有聯署長請。產業發展署聯署長。"},{"start":15187.874,"end":15207.402,"text":"國防部長,還有我們經濟部的署長。我想今天有個臨時提案要討論到無人機的部分。那的確,當時候在2022年8月31號,金門這些無人機的滋擾,非常的討厭,非常的幼稚,非常的無聊。但是這些對於民心來講,它是有一些"},{"start":15208.823,"end":15209.744,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":15234.179,"end":15246.651,"text":"我再問一個問題就好,我們的無人機的反制系統,我們什麼時候會上路?什麼時候會在外島?什麼時候可以完成?這個部分經濟部有沒有答案?國防部有沒有答案?我們壓一個時間點可以嗎?"},{"start":15250.798,"end":15275.77,"text":"我上回我記得張偉有提出一個問題,一個禮拜以內我們中科院他以現有的去做一個補強所以現在我們知道中科院數量夠的話我們可以先做吧至於要立案要做研發要做這個合作採購等等的後面照走但我不指望這個期限了,我們可以來補強的立刻補強"},{"start":15276.53,"end":15278.011,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":15295.939,"end":15315.8,"text":"根據就是後續國防部規劃總共26台外導的,那目前是113年13台、114年14台,如果沒錯的話,現在我是說先看國防部的指導,我們總會絕對可以配合,國防部現在還是要委外嘛,還是跟委員報告一下。"},{"start":15318.558,"end":15328.656,"text":"各位委員報告,這個無人機反制系統目前我們正在會同採購室和相關的…沒關係,程序我不管,我問的是時間。"},{"start":15331.783,"end":15355.089,"text":"時間就是勝利喔也就是在因為它的期程是113、114那這個目前會按照這個我等一下質詢時間會多增加兩分鐘會按照期限來走對我在期限是什麼113年13套114年也是13套那總共是26套所以明年的什麼時候到明年年底明年年底才會好還是"},{"start":15357.229,"end":15368.64,"text":"他的期程就是113年要完成十三號。我的理解啦。不能拖這麼久啦。這樣子一拖變兩年的時間。所以我們今天的具體要求明年"},{"start":15370.174,"end":15397.074,"text":"三月份有沒有辦法好?四月份有沒有辦法好?我的認知是這樣子啦。剛剛部長回應非常的精準。他說中科院這邊先去擋著,去在那邊,先補上去,那之後什麼研發等等的,後續再講。我想我理解是這樣子,如果沒有錯的話,是不是這樣子。所以換句話說,在民意的要求下,即刻就可以上路嗎?"},{"start":15398.054,"end":15401.735,"text":"我期待今年農曆年前可不可以全部基本上全面上路好不好?不可以?"},{"start":15420.015,"end":15420.356,"text":"韓國瑜教授"},{"start":15436.815,"end":15452.088,"text":"但是因為中國院還有報告...沒關係,我今天我也退讓一點點。對。外打好多個,我現在就是手中金門。我外打現在可以提供六個,我六個現在已經完成了。嗯。六部或是四部,因為有兩部我會有再跟你們報告,因為這很重要,也許在本島要用。"},{"start":15452.648,"end":15452.808,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":15472.858,"end":15478.74,"text":"我跟委員報告好不好,委員不要為這個干擾我現在幾月幾號了,我跟各位也要報告,我們現在,早就規定了,外離島在營區上空有這種交換,就是直接用射擊打掉啦,"},{"start":15499.887,"end":15500.687,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":15526.687,"end":15550.405,"text":"反制系統今年年初來部長我想今天由我們國內自己主持極機密的國防軍事會談會議以及顧案計畫前前後後大概有十人在押我必須以一個負責任的執政黨說這是我們國防部跟我們國安系統有在控管"},{"start":15551.326,"end":15562.607,"text":"有在控管才會查得到才會抓得到那我這邊後續根據我的了解他們拿到的這些資料也都是舊版的沒有更新的"},{"start":15563.37,"end":15564.491,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":15581.92,"end":15604.183,"text":"但是這些狀況發生了我要問的事情是是不是請政戰這邊回應一下他們是如何拿到因為是極機密他只是效極而已吼那如何拿到資料的這個部分知道嗎效極的人如何取得降級喔的會議資料這個部分可不可以說明"},{"start":15605.253,"end":15629.305,"text":"我跟委員簡單報告就我們很多工作都有一定的規定有程序嚴格講起來也就沒有照這個程序所以他應該要直接交給誰然後歸黨他可能要中間轉發一個人給他叫他去歸這個當中出了問題所以我們是很沉痛的我們要檢討我們要檢討來鄭正這邊要不要說明一下"},{"start":15630.731,"end":15647.503,"text":"報告委員,呃,這個,誠如剛剛部長所說的,在這個程序方面,我們確實有一些瑕疵。那另外呢,這個案子呢,因為呃,高等法院也在依法辦理。呃,會後我們是不是派員跟委員這邊做說明?"},{"start":15650.255,"end":15676.721,"text":"來,那我問一下,這些資料的部分都是舊版的嗎?對不對?沒有用了嗎?還是應該怎麼說會比較好?我問委員報告,我倒並不是有新的舊的。就新的舊的,台風防疫室在舊那麼大的地方,再怎麼調?這整體來講我並不界定在新的舊的問題。這國防部真的痛定思痛了。這是一個起死大路。那當時候是怎麼發現的?官兵檢舉"},{"start":15681.255,"end":15706.006,"text":"關兵檢舉關兵檢舉所以我們到底這一套系統要怎麼我們內部到底要怎麼辦不好意思,昭偉這邊要借一點時間然後我們看到一下兵推好不好這個下一個題目部長我近期有到這個國防大學還有國防安全研究院去考察那也很謝謝國防部身為昭偉當時我要求要把這個海昆號"},{"start":15706.966,"end":15707.626,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":15725.596,"end":15753.847,"text":"根據我的了解在美國也好或其他的這些所謂我們先進的這些國防的國家裡面以美國為例美國的三軍官校當中兵推課程是標準的配置那目前我看到我們台灣台灣中華民國的部分兵推是要等任官、任官、任官後在軍官的正規班才開始的我在這邊要問一下我們國防大學這邊"},{"start":15755.589,"end":15757.45,"text":"國防大學有沒有自己的兵推系統?國防大學的兵推系統是用JTOS系統是跟國防部所應使共用的。我們對照一下美軍好了,因為它畢竟是最大的系統之一。美軍的國軍人才在軍校18歲到22歲"},{"start":15780.236,"end":15791.293,"text":"他們的就有在培養他們並且讓他們有戰略跟戰術的思維畢竟我們的這個軍校的確是培育下一波也是國家重要國軍人才"},{"start":15793.005,"end":15815.895,"text":"當然很多國軍會說這個拔草啊掃地啊等等那只是可能一百項工作裡面其中一項那我的認知是當我們的國軍從18歲很年輕就知道說未來的決策怎麼決策其實這個國家我們再離題一下下我們在講智商我們在講這個IQ等等其實不是他腦部開發了"},{"start":15817.056,"end":15817.436,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":15845.742,"end":15865.753,"text":"我跟委員報告,委員這個建議很好。事實上我現在要說明一下,所以兵推是個統稱,真正的推演有砂板推演、有兵器推演、有裝備推演。我所強調的,剛才委員所講的,在這個軍校裡面就做推演,這絕對可以做。我們認為科目要做之前,"},{"start":15866.84,"end":15877.078,"text":"在這個打趴講的地板上擺幾個書那也叫狀況推演的也叫兵棋推演的這我們從現在開始已經部隊裡在做的打趴今天要打靶了"},{"start":15885.406,"end":15899.233,"text":"另外一件事情,我跟部長這邊也做一個政策,未來政策教育系統的一個討論。我理解國防大學現在用的是,真的是所謂的高技術性的應該叫做JETOS系統,沒有錯。"},{"start":15900.373,"end":15916.92,"text":"那JATO再看下一個PowerPoint好不好我們去這個國防安全研究院你看一下左邊跟右邊他們裡面這是Zoom Out之後這是非常遙遠的看他們在做任何的參數放進去之後其實它是整個圖是會動的"},{"start":15919.321,"end":15948.561,"text":"那我認為從對一個18歲到22歲的年輕人他們在看相對應的兵推等等的其實他會演繹出來甚至他很清楚的知道他動態他很及時非常的擬真就如同我當時候建議我們的這個很多非官他是用那個模擬器這樣子去看待因為越接近真實他越理解包含他的組織邏輯等等包含還有這個有趣性也會增加"},{"start":15949.341,"end":15974.583,"text":"所以我在這邊講請看一下我們這個左下角這個框是各國使用的還有這些兵推的軟體等等是否這邊也幫軍校這邊爭取一下下我們是否可以因為畢竟18歲到20歲你要他看臺灣整島或整個印太東西的規模那個skill去做兵推或者沙盤推演太大了但是有些東西可以小部分小部分拆解讓他知道"},{"start":15975.303,"end":15995.998,"text":"我應該如何跟我的同僚甚至不同的聯隊甚至不同的軍種他們之間的合作關係聯合的關係是什麼這邊部長可不可以這個意見您的想法呢這很好意見我就想說委員所這個表達出來這個是每個層級不一樣每個系統有不同層級就剛剛講的JETOS"},{"start":15997.639,"end":16012.077,"text":"他已經到戰區系統所以對一個我們排級或聯席以下單位來講的話他用不到那個所以現在各國都有一個手錶一樣這上面就是兵力如何配備如何在哪裡"},{"start":16013.058,"end":16013.418,"text":"三、審查本院委員"},{"start":16034.755,"end":16036.536,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":16053.307,"end":16073.887,"text":"謝謝何昭偉。何昭偉的意思是國防大學的兵推不生動,商用兵推比較生動。我們那天有去啊,我們那天去看他就是點跟線這樣子而已嘛,但那是真正的專業啦,但是我覺得既然是教學用的話應該...因為都用商用的兵推,國防院裡面的比較好。感謝,謝謝。好,謝謝何委員。接下來請陳江華委員詢答。"},{"start":16081.373,"end":16083.775,"text":"謝謝召委。請部長。邱委員好。部長好。部長,現在三位總統候選人有沒有環保證件?請問部長知道嗎?環保?環保證?證件。"},{"start":16122.512,"end":16139.875,"text":"主要是我本人就是是一個環保志工也是超過快30年所以這個部分當然我們關心環境的人也是非常關心人權非常關心人權"},{"start":16141.072,"end":16168.89,"text":"那部長我上次有跟你質詢就是國安六村的圈改爭議本席多次召開協調會、公聽會那今年11月21日公聽會是副局長出席那結論就是有答應要發函給國安局還有國安會請他們提供國安六村的卷戶資料"},{"start":16170.926,"end":16197.919,"text":"但是呢,遲遲沒有發出那因為遲遲沒有發出呢所以我就不死心我就12月4號就在召開一個會議那局長本來答應我要來但是當天呢臨時因故又缺席那本席當然不是很開心吧部長"},{"start":16199.315,"end":16226.725,"text":"你看我現在講話越來越凝重那會中呢眷服處的處長他也答應三天內要發函給國安局跟國安會但是到今天已經七天了還是沒有發函部長我是要拜託你你們國防部要多"},{"start":16227.847,"end":16246.563,"text":"我沒有要請你們關心環境都關心一下人權好嗎這些人真的活得很痛苦房子都那麼破舊住了也不安全然後我們國防部我們政戰局一直在刁難所以部長剛剛我說的"},{"start":16251.869,"end":16268.038,"text":"是在藐視國會嗎?是你在藐視國會還是偵探局長在藐視國會?為什麼看這麼多次會議也找了這麼多相關的人來說明?因為今天質詢的時間有限我也不再跟你講細節了。那結論就是請偵探局把國安六村他們眷改戶的資料"},{"start":16276.824,"end":16284.288,"text":"發函請政政局發函請國安局跟國安會提供資料結果到現在都不用預發公文這到底是在為什麼不把我們的眷改戶我們這些國軍的眷戶當人來看呢為什麼要一直這麼刁難呢我跟委員報啊委員可能九點當了"},{"start":16305.077,"end":16309.428,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":16309.693,"end":16338.385,"text":"委員保證,我們沒有要刁難誰,也沒有不把哪些人當人看,不可能的,我們也絕對不會假裝藐視委員。當中我們也一再討論,國安六村這個議題討論好多年了,我們也說明好多次了,所以不厭其煩的,可能假如這回做的有點疏忽的話,那我負責吧,我跟委員這個線,但我也請政戰局他們夜館該發函發函,該再去說明再去說明。"},{"start":16338.945,"end":16367.288,"text":"都答應了啊。那局長當天應顧不來,我也接受。但是我真的是沒辦法去接受說,把這些人真的不去尊重他們的人權。我沒有不尊重,我跟委員報告,這裡面有很多人權。那部長什麼時候可以請政戰局發函呢?這個禮拜會發函出去。好,盡快好嗎?這個禮拜會發函出去。"},{"start":16369.072,"end":16375.34,"text":"謝謝局長再來下一個案子下一個案子也是一個很令人"},{"start":16378.697,"end":16402.115,"text":"當然我們有這個陳情仁就是我們國軍弟兄那他就是一位黃家雄先生他是河群新村本來是眷戶那在眷改的程序進行的時候有發存證信案給國防部表示這個程序是有瑕疵的"},{"start":16403.076,"end":16426.39,"text":"不過他不是不同意卷改但是最後不知道是什麼原因被變成他就是不同意卷改不配合卷改然後被拆屋並所討不當得利那本席是覺得這是不合理的不合理不合情理"},{"start":16427.25,"end":16428.992,"text":"我是要請部長瞭解一下細節,如果"},{"start":16455.894,"end":16462.758,"text":"因為本席已經花了很多時間了解那現在時間也到了我是請部長能夠跟局長能夠再去確認能夠讓他恢復他是有眷改戶的權益因為這個眷戶呢他前後兩次自己用了純正信函來確認他註銷他的原認證書所以這個都是在法院審理都有判決的那在"},{"start":16481.989,"end":16483.331,"text":"議長,您現在講的在協調會都講了很多次,但是本期開會的時候,因為您一直沒有來開會,所以我要跟局長、跟部長也說,"},{"start":16498.914,"end":16516.592,"text":"這位國軍弟兄他也是後來發了很多次函給我們國防部說他是同意的他是同意的我再講三遍同意同意同意所以部長麻煩你再確認一下是不是可以再追回他是眷戶的眷改戶"},{"start":16518.094,"end":16531.044,"text":"簡單就是這樣。他原先是有意見,對我們卷改是有意見,但是後來他也發了非常多次的函,說明他是願意卷改的,他不是不同意。這樣了解嗎?"},{"start":16532.486,"end":16556.706,"text":"我們了解因為很多法規它有一個期限對不對在你這個期限以內你答覆怎麼樣你就要秉持啊當然委員會講他願意這個已經好像改了我們也要改我們是公家機構多少人這個狀況一個一改我們前面法走過程序就別人也要否定好部長當然我們現在了解是不是請局長親自親自我們再來討論一下"},{"start":16563.07,"end":16576.056,"text":"看我們黃先生還有國安就有什麼問題那剛剛也答應說趕快發文那這位黃家雄弟兄我們是不是再討論一下可不可以再讓他追認他是眷改戶可以嗎"},{"start":16578.078,"end":16596.64,"text":"方委員,會後我再到辦公室跟您報告。那部長,可以嗎?可以麻煩你也撥個心,就是也去關心一下這個案子。我們也不願意看到這位黃先生真的是也是活得很辛苦。我也不願意看到,我也很難過嘛。大家以前跑走一場。"},{"start":16597.961,"end":16603.842,"text":"一般來講,原券戶一定要注目證明,不然的話打完官司打輸了還要再補,不可能。"},{"start":16627.761,"end":16630.263,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":16648.729,"end":16666.709,"text":"謝謝召委,現在時間比較晚了,我可不可以請一下部長,還有總督察長,然後還有法律事務司作戰聯三,還有訓練參謀,還有國防大學跟中科院。好,通通上來"},{"start":16668.103,"end":16691.769,"text":"因為我要問三個問題了督察室李中將還有法律師我先問一下部長部長剛剛蔡市委員有提到就是我們臺灣高檢署檢查署臺灣高等檢查署的新聞稿有提到有陳姓被告10人的部分那現在只有一位叫做陳玉新的部分他雖然是一個退役人員但是退役商人請問一下你了不了解他有沒有被通緝"},{"start":16693.246,"end":16721.283,"text":"我知道他這個10人當中有3個是已經退的7個是我們現役的我知道我是說這個陳玉新你所了解的部分他有沒有被通緝有通緝嘛有通緝的嘛有通緝所以這個部分看起來不管是7個人或是10個人最後到那個法院去判決的時候應該都是會觸犯到貪污自罪條例甚至國安法或者是一些勤工法的部分那我要請教一下"},{"start":16721.963,"end":16742.771,"text":"部長雖然可以看到說這個是11月27日台灣高等檢察署所發布的新聞稿但是我們略微知道就是不管是特種的像化學兵或是陸海空等等這些相關的極機密國防部內部的這個資料請問一下我們後續的這個補救方案或是亡羊補牢的方案現在開始啟動了沒有"},{"start":16743.447,"end":16771.035,"text":"我們同步來啟動,因為當初這案子一出以後啊,我們就有很多這個叫做等於要補強,避免人家講損害管控啊,損害管控啊我知道,損害管控很重要,這是風險的部分但是我要跟你講說,這裡面有好多是極精密的部分但是極精密的話要按照我們國防部內部的程序還是必須要由這個比如說下面的不管是哪一個軍種再上上來但是這樣子的機制會不會太慢"},{"start":16772.602,"end":16787.111,"text":"我要跟部長提到的部分就是說因為這裡面太多極機密的部分有沒有可能馬上先通案比如說先把它撤掉或是說先把這個所謂的舊案全部都一起否決掉然後趕快重新擬定新的方案而不是只有換湯不換藥"},{"start":16788.932,"end":16813.869,"text":"我們都要重複再說了。好,那你什麼時候可以完成?什麼時候可以完成我所說的?因為這個高檢署所發布的這個新聞稿裡面我相信你們從他的這個起訴判決書裡面一定會了解到我們國防部內部到底有哪一些極機密機密不管是哪一個陸海空三軍的部分受到影響那現在趕快做亡羊補牢,那個部長你可以答應我什麼時候可以把它完成補牆的工作?"},{"start":16819.396,"end":16836.252,"text":"報告委員,這個所有洩密的資料我們剛剛前面已經有委員指導過,我們去跟這個地方法院拿到起訴書相關的證據以後,我們會做成一個清單,然後將所有洩密出去的計畫全部做一個修訂。"},{"start":16836.792,"end":16849.02,"text":"要作廢對不對?要作廢再修訂。那我剛問的是什麼時候可以完成?這是你們內部的行政局就可以做到?不需要經過台灣高檢署同意啊?是,報告委員這個在明年第一季就可以完成"},{"start":16849.471,"end":16871.499,"text":"明年第一季就表示到目前為止,你要三個月才會完成,那三個月裡面如果有任何其他的這個境外的勢力來呢?太慢了吧?部長,即機密的部分可不可以盡快來完成收集或補償的工作?我們只要有這個名稱以後,下單就是這個馬上就截止或作廢,這個是可以很快做的。拿到"},{"start":16872.5,"end":16895.435,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":16896.516,"end":16922.109,"text":"他已經新聞稿出來了所以國防部是受害者嘛所以盡量趕快找到相關資料好嗎好這第一個那第二個呢我要問的就是葛明德這個這一位啊國防大學的教授那個跟這個所謂的現役軍官遭吸收了部分的相關的這個這個首長可以先回去我想問一下國防大學的這個部分啊將研究成果跟中國籍人士來申請專利請問國防大學還有中科院怎麼看待這件事"},{"start":16924.493,"end":16949.233,"text":"來請回應一下跟委員報告那目前他在那個跟對岸廠商申請那個專利的那個發明申請專利怎麼會跟對岸廠商一定是對岸的官方機構啊哪有去跟對岸的廠商申請專利你來看一下他裡面的部分是就是有關電鍍法來自備高批負性的這個沾黏這個陶瓷類的部分這個不是做完欸你要搞清楚啊"},{"start":16949.693,"end":16963.948,"text":"你要知道我們在國客會剛剛通過了幾個國家核心關鍵技術裡面有相關的這些技術在國防部主管就很多包括碳纖維、高溫耐燒溶石技術等等這些所以事實上你們不能把它等閒視之好像覺得只是為了一點點錢然後就申請中國專利你們搞清楚狀況啊"},{"start":16969.113,"end":16984.138,"text":"關於委員報告,媒體上面那些專利,事實上是跟我們學校持有的專利是沒有相關的。我們還在查案中,有些是不屬實的。表示你還在查當中,那我再問一下中科院,你了不了解?"},{"start":16984.838,"end":17006.779,"text":"中科院也若干的委託計畫給這位葛明德教授我剛所說的用電鍍法制備高批負性的抗沾黏的類陶瓷鍍膜技術還有先進的環保、落炭類陶瓷製成技術等等這些有沒有牽涉到中科院自己內部認定的是屬於關鍵技術或是屬於國防機密"},{"start":17007.399,"end":17036.079,"text":"各位報告這十年來我們查了一下葛明德跟我們中科院案有14個案子那14個案子都是基礎科學研究也就是剛才有委員詢答我們講了基礎關鍵是依照三級的TIL基礎備備水準這14個案子我們昨天這兩天特別樂悅來查他沒有涉及到機密但是他裡面是不是還有包含三個從110年到112年的先進系統工程研究中心他是不是其中的一個"},{"start":17039.607,"end":17064.255,"text":"請再查核清楚好嗎?國防部或者是國防大學再查核清楚有14案14案裡面是葛明德先生或是葛明德教授有涉案的部分我們現在擔心的就是核心關鍵技術如果沒有把它查清楚的話你會認為只是一般的學研甚至他跑到中國去申請專利的時候申請完專利那變成中國就可以無限被授權來使用我覺得是這個非常糟糕啊部長"},{"start":17065.375,"end":17090.502,"text":"您聽到這樣子的部分的話,你的指示是什麼?有沒有最近跟中科院或者國防大學做一下什麼樣子的方式來指示他們?我剛剛講到我們已經交代了,不管是中科院也好,或國防大學、理工學院分別去查。但我們同步在做,第一個做的事情是先完全把移送法辦了。原本他們還講要查到某個地步再移送。我想這個不用等,這兩個工作同步在做的。"},{"start":17091.282,"end":17110.97,"text":"就是部長你已經指示說就乾脆移送法辦,不用再經過內部的行政調查是嗎?不是,就是要行政調查是移送法辦以後我們一樣要說我們程序嘛。就是同步進行就對了。對,同步說。好,了解。同步進行我想這樣才能夠真正遏止我們的關鍵技術外流好嗎?是。那那個部長你指示要移送法辦的時間是什麼時候?"},{"start":17112.955,"end":17133.36,"text":"我昨天就有講了嘛,禮拜六我知道以後還我打電話給他那國防大學校長,我跟他講了但是12月8號的時候為什麼國防大學自己都會講說成立專案小組啟動調查,這表示是行政調查啊?國防大學有沒有收到那個部長的指示?"},{"start":17134.38,"end":17150.045,"text":"跟委員報告就是早上那個媒播出來之後我們就立刻成立專案調查小組然後就這一次整天就開始在做調查然後也在研擬相關的後續的作為來移送法辦這件事情是由國防部移送法辦還是國防大學移送法辦到底是誰我要求他"},{"start":17150.945,"end":17176.19,"text":"是啊,所以國防大學教育長你所回應的是你啟動調查,這就是我所說的,這叫行政調查啊那你到底有沒有按照國防部長的指示就是移送法案有,有確實的按照部長的指示來做一個安送法辦嘛,什麼時候出去的?公文今天上午今天上午才出去嘛今天上午會,是今天上午請那個做寒送所以部長昨天指示你們今天上午出去,這樣算是快,是不是?"},{"start":17179.138,"end":17188.132,"text":"昨天是週日我們已經有同仁在作業然後今天早上是上班日然後今天上午就會出手就會送走是表示還沒送還是送了?"},{"start":17189.617,"end":17192.138,"text":"最近這兩天包括某個媒體也都在批評就是說我們立法院即將二三讀的這個軍事營區安全維護條例裡面"},{"start":17211.008,"end":17225.885,"text":"是否為涉及就是說侵害到有一般尤其是什麼露營啊射露營這個部分後來我們來查證一下的部分就是說在原來啊我們那個法律有個要塞堡壘地帶法的地帶法的第四條第一款也是一樣"},{"start":17226.465,"end":17242.445,"text":"沒有受到國防部的特別命令的話不得為測量、攝影等等這些如果有違反的話呢它的有期徒刑是在一年到七年那但是呢同樣很類似的部分放在我們的軍事營區的安全而物條例裡面第六條的審查裡面是非經軍事居關許可"},{"start":17243.246,"end":17260.199,"text":"我是不是可以直接請這個沈中將來回應一下請問這兩個之間的差別在哪裡?競合在哪裡?而為什麼會有一些就是說對於軍事迷他們有興趣不一定涉及國家安全的人會對這個有些反彈?是不是請沈中將可以來回答一下?"},{"start":17260.979,"end":17287.975,"text":"是,報告委員跟委員做簡單的說明要塞堡壘地帶法它規範的是要塞堡壘要塞堡壘它必須經過公告那現在在我們全部地區大概有22處不是所有的營區都是要塞堡壘那軍事營區安全維護條例它的保護的課題是營區我們作戰部門有概略統計過大概有上千個營區那要塞堡壘地帶法第四條它規範的罰則就像委員剛剛講的它可能有到圖形的處罰"},{"start":17288.835,"end":17308.02,"text":"那軍事安全安全維護條例他第六條裡面所規範的法則那個只有原來上面原則上是只有行政法並沒有到並沒有到所謂刑法的處罰程度不一樣但是為什麼大家會反彈就在於你所說的要在堡壘地帶法所牽涉到的範圍比較小比較少"},{"start":17310.041,"end":17310.461,"text":"報告委員單純這種你對著天空拍"},{"start":17332.398,"end":17333.059,"text":"我建議省中將要對外說清楚台灣也很多軍事迷"},{"start":17348.877,"end":17349.178,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":17364.617,"end":17391.096,"text":"但是如果我們把這個軍安條例裡面無限擴大讓他覺得說我連拿個這個攝影機就會受到影響然後甚至會有人出來拿著槍出來趕我走這樣的部分那這個部分如果沒有說清楚講明白的話會很糟糕尤其是非經濟事機關許可就我了解應該是說該營區裡面的指揮官要許可才可以是不是還是門哨就可以許可"},{"start":17392.197,"end":17417.058,"text":"如果要拍攝相關的許可的話我們會在後面有定的有七個辦法有七個執法那另外哪些地方能拍不能拍或是哪些地方有管制有四個公告該有的法規命令該有的公告我們都會按著程序來做誰有權許可在什麼樣的營區有什麼樣的人可以做許可等等那如果發覺有人違規該怎麼樣去做通報該怎麼樣請示都會在相關的法規命令裡面來規範"},{"start":17417.739,"end":17446.336,"text":"因為這裡面也牽涉到如果說是電視台或者是其他的媒體他們也會很關心這個部分所以我們未來要公告的時候或是未來要主管機關還是放在國防部來主管還是放在行政院主管會比較好因為行政院在主管的過程當中他們會比較考慮到涉及到言論自由比如說是電視台或者是媒體等等這些他們的這個管制的方向會跟國防部還會有一些必須要溝通的"},{"start":17446.656,"end":17447.536,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":17464.025,"end":17464.325,"text":"我們不能這樣講,法律不是這樣子的"},{"start":17484.542,"end":17506.031,"text":"立法院通過之後,行政院也只能按照立法院所通過的法條來處理。你不能說立法院通過之後,我行政院可以另外再下指導期。不能這樣子。我們是照著法律授權。對,我們是照著法律授權的範圍。所以法律授權放在行政院執法或者是其他的行政命令的話會比較好,還是放在國防部會比較好?"},{"start":17506.533,"end":17530.024,"text":"二、報委應該是放在國防部這個我們先前就有討論過我們是主管機關我先跟你提醒了因為再接著下來可能我們在四黨協商的時候呢這個議題還是會被提出來那如果我們考量這個時間上的因素希望趕快通過的話恐怕對每個不同的黨團之間的溝通或者是對外界的溝通要說清楚講明白最後二三度通過才比較不會有其他的疑慮好嗎我們會持續去說明謝謝部長謝謝各位"},{"start":17535.049,"end":17536.309,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":17555.001,"end":17559.165,"text":"蘇志芬委員翁崇鈞委員王宏威委員蔡依瑜委員"},{"start":17573.888,"end":17589.212,"text":"那今天登記質詢的委員除了不在場之外都已經發言完畢了報告就詢答結束本日會議有陳明文委員、蔡易瑜委員、馬文君委員、趙天寧委員、陳超明委員提出書面質詢並列入記錄刊登公報請相關機關如果書面以書面於兩週內答覆聯席各委員會並複製聯席會那"},{"start":17603.235,"end":17619.936,"text":"今日的委員口頭質詢為答覆部分也要求補充資料者請相關單位以書面於兩週內提出,提供給各個委員。我的ROTC要兩週內嗎?一週就可以了吧?"},{"start":17622.547,"end":17642.274,"text":"提醒所有人員、481位跟學校。最後宣告一下有關病案審查的國防產業發展條例兩個修正提案因為就像今天的提案當中反制無人機我們已經有一個確定就是希望在這個"},{"start":17644.255,"end":17644.915,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}