{"error":false,"id":["153461"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153461,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153461","日期":"2024-06-03","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-03T11:50:10+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-03T11:57:11+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:01","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707d51d62875cbab23b59c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0c51d9cde2851d34635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:50:10 - 11:57:11","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":983,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時50分）主席，有請數發部、NCC、法務部，還有中華電信。"],["主席：好，各位請。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：斯斯有兩種，王義川也有兩個，一個是天眼局的王義川，非常厲害，可以透過手機比對太陽花、小草、民進黨選前之夜跟青鳥活動裡面的年齡跟重複度以及他的移動，非常厲害，天眼局一流的。第二個是膝蓋局局長，也是王義川，因為他說這些所有東西都是用膝蓋想的。這兩個──天眼局跟膝蓋局的王義川，其中一個在說謊。","我想請教一下法務部次長，今天如果是天眼局，假設王義川沒有正當法律授權取得未識別化的群眾資料，用於政治偵防跟群眾運動的數據分析，請問這樣是不是構成所謂通訊監察保障法以及個人資料保護法等法規的違反？有沒有這個疑慮？"],["黃次長謀信：我不要講個案，從通案上、從法律上來講，他如果違反我們通保法或個資法的相關規定的話，當然會構成相關的刑責。"],["羅委員智強：所以現在已經接案偵查了嘛，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：這個個案已經在偵辦了。"],["羅委員智強：什麼時候開始辦的？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，529才分案。"],["羅委員智強：529分案，今天第幾天了？第5天？"],["黃次長謀信：對，第5天。"],["羅委員智強：好，如果說今天真的涉及這些所謂的未識別化資訊，就有違法的疑慮，你不講個案講通案，我想問你，如果王義川是用膝蓋想的，有沒有違法？我膝蓋想的啊！我的膝蓋很厲害啊！我用膝蓋想的，這樣有沒有違法？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這其實就是個案了，你已經講到個人，那就是個案。"],["羅委員智強：膝蓋，我想不出違什麼法啦，可是你知道我要問的問題是什麼嗎？第5天了，我想請問現在檢察機關的證據保全行動在哪裡？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，剛剛也有委員提到類似的問題，其實個案上檢察官偵辦的證據保全，我不便問，在這邊也不便……"],["羅委員智強：我直接告你啦，你不便問，我曾經也被檢方約談過，只要一約談，本身就是一個新聞啦，請問王義川約談了沒？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我目前沒有這方面的訊息。"],["羅委員智強：沒有這方面的訊息？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：我也沒看到啦！更不要說今天王義川身上是不是有相關的資料，需要進行資料保全必要的一些法律行動，有沒有做你也不知道？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我不應該知道。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，根本沒做啦！至少到目前為止沒看到啦！王義川活蹦亂跳啦！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告……"],["羅委員智強：我問一下次長，我想請教你，王義川現在從所謂的天眼局改口變成膝蓋局，這不就是空中串供嗎？他現在開始串說法、改說法啊！後面膝蓋局這種用膝蓋想的，他就是在迴避他的法律責任嘛！可是今天我沒有看到檢察機關有任何積極行動啦。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，檢察官在蒐證，供述證據當然是重要證據，但是非供述證據的蒐集也是……"],["羅委員智強：唉啊，供述證據跟非供述證據，如果遇到羅智強都辦啦，遇到王義川就會有分別啦，我懂啦，為什麼？因為他今天是民進黨中央政策會執行長，他今天是民進黨不分區立委的候補人選，辦案如果照這種狀況，證據沒有保全，王義川早就把資料滅證了啦，還等到你今天檢察官去查，我沒有看到任何證據保全的積極行動啊！","接下來我要請教中華電信董事長。"],["郭董事長水義：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：董事長，我想請教您，請問王義川到底要如何用手機去辨別太陽花、所謂的小草，還有民進黨選前之夜跟青鳥活動裡面的人的重疊度以及年齡跟性別，如何比對？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，我們不清楚他怎麼做的。"],["羅委員智強：不清楚？來，主委，你們的報告裡面已經寫了，一定要取得電信業者的基地臺服務用戶號碼以及帳務、客戶資料庫的資料進行交叉比對嘛，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果要確認一個人的話，一定要這樣去處理。"],["羅委員智強：答對了，所以是有方法可以做，對不對？但是你們不肯做而已嘛，對不對？你的說法是這樣，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：技術上可以，但這是法規上可不可以的問題。"],["羅委員智強：董事長，我告訴你，中華電信要慚愧了啦，因為我們現在的新科技工具，不用這些方法，你知道用什麼方法就可以做到嗎？不用什麼帳務、客戶資料庫，也不用基地臺服務用戶號碼，不需要，你知道用什麼超級無敵的AI武器就可以做到？你知道是什麼東西嗎？你知道嗎？你當然不知道，我告訴你，趕快去找王義川，他的膝蓋做得到！他的膝蓋做得到啦！今天我也要特別講，我還是肯定，我真的難得肯定我們陳耀祥主委，到目前為止沒有護航王義川，但是你也不願意好好地把資料交出來。現在民進黨政府，包括國安局、調查局、NCC，你們全都不肯做這種事情嘛，你們會做嗎？會不會做？主委，你會去政治偵防群眾資料交叉比對，今天……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們依法不可以做的我們就不會做。"],["羅委員智強：答對了嘛，我就是要你這句話嘛！顯然就是違法！依法就是不能做！我也問過法務部，也是依法不能做啊，不是嗎？沒錯吧？法務部有沒有要改口？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，當然要依法處理。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，國安局也也切割了啊，可到現在為止，我要跟民進黨喊話，全部都切割了啦！今天王義川到底是膝蓋局局長還是天眼局局長，民進黨賴清德出來給個交代吧！不管哪一個都是說謊！我今天也問我們的主委，你在這個地方會說謊嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然要據實陳述啊。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，據實陳述啊，所以為什麼我們的聽證調查規範官員要有誠實回答的一個義務，就是希望能夠真相發現嘛，可是今天民進黨政策會執行長，要嘛就是天眼局局長說謊，要嘛就是膝蓋局局長說謊，這樣的所謂中央政策會執行長，你不砸掉、不廢掉、不砍掉，我想請問民進黨，你的執政怎麼說服公眾啊？以上。"],["主席（林委員國成代）：好，謝謝羅智強委員質詢。","現在請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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據實陳述啊所以為什麼今天我們的聽證調查今天規範官員要有誠實"},{"start":397.669,"end":413.323,"text":"回答的一個義務就是希望能夠真相發現可是今天你們民進黨的政策會執行長你要嘛就天眼局局長說謊要嘛就膝蓋局局長說謊這樣的所謂的中央政策會執行長你不砸掉、不廢掉、不砍掉我想請問民進黨你的執政怎麼說服公眾以上"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}