{"error":false,"id":["153463"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153463,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153463","日期":"2024-06-03","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-03T12:03:38+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-03T12:13:20+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:42","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707ecc0261ce12327e059c493b59145da8fe7a5eaa3f1fb9be26075f793af8843da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"12:03:38 - 12:13:20","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1083,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（12時3分）謝謝主席，是不是請NCC陳主委？"],["主席：好，陳主委。"],["陳委員雪生：法務部黃次長還有中華電信郭董事長。"],["主席：法務部黃次長，來。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員早。"],["陳委員雪生：各位早，本席今天這個會議的主題把它定為國家機器有它的道理，副院長說這個定得重了一點，因為王義川執行長是民進黨很重要的一個幹部，跟整個選舉的國家機器扯在一起，所以我才定為國家機器。我想請問一下法務部黃次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：檢察官已經主動分案偵辦調查嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["陳委員雪生：這是社會那麼重視的案子，應該大張旗鼓，是不是？要兵分三路、兵分四路嘛！去查三大業者有沒有做這樣的行為。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這涉及到我們偵查不公開這個最重要的原則……"],["陳委員雪生：我知道，你們常常都在公開，講的是偵查不公開，可是在電視裡面你看看哪一樣不公開的？每一樣都公開啊！甚至是多少錢交保。"],["黃次長謀信：偵辦案件偵查不公開是檢察官最基本的要求。"],["陳委員雪生：你說是最基本的，我說是最不基本的要求，哪一件不公開？你講！有不公開的案子嗎？你舉例說明，每一件都公開，公開得乾乾淨淨，那我是覺得應該兵分三路、兵分八路，應該去包抄嘛！你們有傳訊過王義川執行長嗎？我看電視報導也沒有，他是那麼重要的一個人，如果有傳訊的話，電視一定有很大的報導啊！是不是？各新聞媒體都以頭版頭條報導出來啦！可是沒有啊！沒看到啊！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，關於目前進行什麼樣的偵查作為，老實講，我並不清楚，除非該地檢署主動發布新聞稿，要不然外界是不清楚的。"],["陳委員雪生：當然以你職掌的範圍，你可以這麼講。我覺得地檢署查到現在沒有任何的訊息，很像真的是偵查不公開，我看也不了了之啦！這件事情我看是雲淡風輕、若無其事。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這是一個社會矚目的案件，檢察官不可能如同委員剛剛講的那樣，他會依照證據來認定。"],["陳委員雪生：好，次長請回。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：我要問一下中華電信的郭董事長。"],["郭董事長水義：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：你們國際分公司的副總陳建志是從哪裡調來的？目前國際分公司的副總是從我們立法院過去的，之前是助理，是政治任命的喔！在企通處擔任協理，到現在是國際分公司的副總經理，也是廣義的公務員，你知不知道我們立法院柯總召的助理，還有很多的助理跑到你們中華電信去，都是高官任用，你們知道嗎？董事長，你知道嗎？甚至包含你本人都有可能是這樣喔！我是覺得這非常的可怕，因為政黨屬性不同，就會做其他各種的服務，那大數據有買賣嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，那個大數據人潮分析的部分是在去識別化之後，依照個人資料保護法、電信管理法等相關法令，在遵循這些法令之下合法的去進行數據的分析提供的。"],["陳委員雪生：分公司的副總退休了嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：在職。"],["陳委員雪生：離任了沒有？"],["郭董事長水義：在職。"],["陳委員雪生：我在不只4年以前，在總統選舉的時候，我看過這樣的大數據的東西，有電信業者找我們立委問：你要不要分析你的票有多少？這上面有散布在臺灣整個島的很多點，有綠的點，有藍的點，分布得很密，我看過這個東西，有人來跟我推銷，因為我的選區不需要這個東西，我的選區的選票都在我的腦袋裡面，藍的在哪裡、綠的在哪裡、不是我的票在哪裡，我通通都知道，我自己知道，我不是像你們的大數據，我的腦袋裡面是我的大數據。所以我要問你對大數據這個東西是不是可以買賣？"],["郭董事長水義：在我們法規允許下所進行的商業服務……"],["陳委員雪生：對，你們講的都是依法講話，都是依法講話、依法行政。"],["郭董事長水義：對。"],["陳委員雪生：最可怕的是什麼呢？我是執政黨的某一個人，我跟你要個資料，你能夠不給嗎？一定給嘛！是不是？郭董，我跟你熟的話，就請你把什麼資料偷偷給我一下。"],["郭董事長水義：委員不會跟我……"],["陳委員雪生：我為什麼講是國家機器？今天講到王義川執行長，像柯建銘總召，我相信也是國家機器，是不是？他向你們要東西有什麼困難嗎？沒有困難的，既然都可以買賣了，我們也可以談不買賣嘛！是不是這樣？"],["郭董事長水義：委員不會跟我索取這些不合法的、我們依法不能提供的資料。"],["陳委員雪生：那當然啦！我向你索取的都是合法的，你能夠給我的東西也是合法的，你會講不合法嗎？那不可能嘛！所以我剛才才在講，就算打死你，你也不會招供啦！是不是？還有，在這個事情發生以後，你有去向你的下屬單位調查到底有沒有發生這個事情嗎？有沒有？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，我有調查。"],["陳委員雪生：調查的資料在哪裡？"],["郭董事長水義：我們請同仁調查的結果……"],["陳委員雪生：調查的結果怎麼樣？"],["郭董事長水義：這個大數據人潮分析的平臺在5月17號到24號之間，沒有任何異常的使用跟存取。"],["陳委員雪生：好，他們是怎麼跟你回報的？他一定講：報告董事長，我們底下都是依法行政，絕對不會有這種狗屁倒灶的事情，是不是這樣報告？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，我是請我們個人資料保護的單位去調查大數據單位的這個事情。"],["陳委員雪生：NCC的主委也一樣嘛！陳主委，你底下的人一定跟你講：我們都依法行政。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那當然，本來就要落實依法行政。"],["陳委員雪生：他們是不是這樣報告？所以我講雲淡風輕嘛！沒事啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，我們還是要經過調查才有辦法去下結論。"],["陳委員雪生：我是覺得你把這個大數據這樣子……你可以講買賣，有買賣也可以不買賣啊！買賣有公開的、有私底下的，有公的、有私的，什麼方式都有啊！我確認王義川執行長他不是詐騙集團，我確認他不是詐騙集團，他是真的，我告訴你，他的數據是有本的，他的數據一定有來源的，而這個來源我高度懷疑就是由你們中華電信的大數據出去的。我懷疑是這樣，我懷疑啦，我不敢肯定啦，因為我今天懷疑如果有資料的話，我早就拿出來了。查到現在很像根本都沒有查出什麼東西，王義川執行長也老神在在，你問我，我是用膝蓋想的，就跟我剛才講的一樣，我用大腦想的，這個道理是一樣的，所以這個怎麼查？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，再次強調，5月17號到24號之間，我們大數據的人潮分析平臺資料庫裡面，沒有任何異常的存取跟使用。"],["陳委員雪生：所以剛才我們蔡其昌副院長講說，我們執政黨講的是人權，嘴巴是講人權，肚子裡面是講人權嗎？不是這麼回事啊！你們現在去打開……NCC你把電視打開，藍的電視臺就是藍的電視臺，藍的電視臺不會去講綠的一句好話，綠的所有電視臺也絕對不會去讚美藍的政治人物，一句好話都沒有，不要講一句啦！半句都沒有，就是壞！臺灣的人民那麼善良，我最近想移民了，我從來沒有這個想法，在這裡晚上可以吃米粉湯、油豆腐，多愉快啊！穿著拖鞋出去治安也很好，我為什麼想移民？不怕死的年輕人一堆啊！跟老共要打仗是不是？那個電視每天報導的，你們沒有責任嗎？NCC沒有責任嗎？這個電視臺叫它關門嘛，關個幾家嘛，不准再講什麼藍的壞話，也不准講綠的壞話，電視節目水準稍微高一點好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，我們盡力來提升，本來就是說……"],["陳委員雪生：你7月份就要走人了，怎麼盡力？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：本來NCC就是一個制度，鐵打的衙門流水的官，官員會離開，但我們還是會去處理。"],["陳委員雪生：NCC的官員也有很多在這邊，我拜託大家，我們共同努力，真的，臺灣不是這個樣子，臺灣沒有那麼善良了啦，臺灣真的已經很邪惡、很罪惡感了。立法院在開會，讓立法委員要出去卻害怕能不能走出這個立法院，這什麼話嘛！你說說看！這是個民主國家嗎？你到大陸去看看、你到大陸去看看，有這樣的事嗎？走出去很安全啊！殺人就馬上槍斃，就這麼回事，我們這裡殺人死刑犯還可以待個二、三十年，在裡面吃牢飯，很舒服、很愉快耶！還有人照顧他們，跟養老院一樣，可以嗎？好不好？我們大家共勉，謝謝！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生召委。現在請徐巧芯委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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