{"error":false,"id":["153466"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153466,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153466","日期":"2024-06-03","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-03T12:28:22+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-03T12:38:38+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:16","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707a71519351f5dfd8359c493b59145da8fe7a5eaa3f1fb9be2cb86a12d45e21ec65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"12:28:22 - 12:38:38","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1279,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時28分）謝謝。麻煩陳耀祥主委，還有鄭其昀副主任。"],["主席：好，陳主委。"],["吳委員宗憲：以及郭董事長。"],["主席：郭董事長、鄭副主任。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：三位午安。我現在先請教一下陳主委，NCC主秘黃文哲之前有說「要鎖定到他的基地臺使用的人，他究竟是男是女，假設只是這樣的話，那這樣沒辦法識別個人，那就不在個資法的範圍內」，這句話你認同嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：個資法是保護個人資料，我們黃主秘所講的是在去識別化以後就變成所謂數據的問題，所以我們一方面要維護個資，二方面來講，就是數據利用。"],["吳委員宗憲：你的前提就是去識別化之後嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：主委，我先附帶提一個，我們今天是質詢，你是備詢，我們並不是法庭上的交互詰問，因為上一次我質詢你的時候，我覺得最後有一點不愉快。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是請你切記這不是法庭上的交互詰問。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：OK！"],["吳委員宗憲：你是備詢。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。有關這個部分，我想你講的沒有錯，就是去識別化之後當然就不涉及個資的問題，但是我們就回歸到手機定位的部分，我想請問你，手機定位到底是不是個資法保護範圍內？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果是手機的號碼來講，當然是啊！如果是信令相關訊息來講，如果可以直接或間接認定到、識別到個人身分的話，它就會變成個資了。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那我現在跟你講一下，我上次在質詢法務部長的時候有提到，其實國發會的函釋、包括行政院資通安全處處長他曾經寫過的報告，以及當天法務部長鄭部長他所說的，其實他們都認為手機定位應該是屬於個資法保護的範圍內。另外我再提一個案例，在103年的時候曾經有海巡署的官員在卡車上面裝GPS，結果後來被法院判決拘役五十九天，我想主委一定知道這個案子嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：嗯、嗯。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以即便裝GPS，知道你這部車子到哪裡都被認定是有妨礙秘密了，更何況今天我們涉及手機的定位，因為手機的定位甚至綁的是個人，像車子的話，可能是誰開的我們也不知道。另外，我要再提一個點，在司法上面調查的合法監控，不會對人群，只會對個人或特定的某些犯罪的人；國安局這次也說了，它並沒有把一些資料流出來；剛剛主委你也有說過，你說你不知道王義川的這個資料到底是哪裡來，你剛剛跟邱委員有這樣講嘛，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果這樣子推論下來的話，我想請教一下郭董事長，這樣子中華電信是不是應該要大義滅親去對王義川提告啊？因為你看喔，沒有任何人可以拿到這些資料，從司法體系來說，司法體系不會拿到人群的資料，它只會拿到個案的資料，雖然非常的詳細，這我很清楚。第二個，國安局也說，它不會把資料給特定人或特定政黨使用，所以今天他莫名其妙的拿到這些資料，是不是應該要有人出來去對他提告、去釐清到底怎麼回事？或是他用什麼方式──駭客，還是什麼方式偷到這些資料？否則他憑什麼講這個，除非他承認他就是喇叭嘴、胡說八道。董事長，你有什麼想法？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，我們不清楚王先生資料來源為何？中華電信已經在上禮拜有發出新聞稿，也在這邊慎重跟委員報告，中華電信跟王先生沒有任何接觸，也沒有任何業務洽談，我們也沒有提供任何資料給他。"],["吳委員宗憲：我知道、我知道，我相信你說的，我姑且相信你說的啦！但是如果他今天有用不詳的方式去取得貴公司的資料，那貴公司其實該提告就要提告，我想這個應該沒有問題吧？"],["郭董事長水義：我們沒有任何相關的事證說他是使用中華電信的資料。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我沒有意見，我是說，如果之後經過檢察官，因為檢察官現在已經分他字案在調查，如果今天檢察官查出來這確實跟貴公司資料有關的話，貴公司會不會提告？"],["郭董事長水義：中華電信嚴守個人資料保護法……"],["吳委員宗憲：你還是沒有回答我……"],["郭董事長水義：跟電信管理法，我們沒有提供任何資料給他。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧！那有答跟沒有答一樣啦，不然我跟你講，你要是不懂得立法院怎麼運作，你去問一下你們那個法律事務處副總經理──魏惠珍，他以前是柯總召的助理，他應該很瞭解立法院的運作，我們希望你還是能夠表示，不然你不懂就去問他好了，好不好？"],["郭董事長水義：感謝委員！"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，既然你這麼講的話。再來，我想請問個資保護委員會的鄭副主任。"],["鄭副主任其昀：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想請問一下，這些手機流量定位服務，這些個資的再利用是用什麼合法的方式釋出？你們有什麼合法的方式可以把這些資料給外面的人？"],["鄭副主任其昀：是，委員好，跟委員報告，如果說是電信業者的話，因為他們會有一個電信管理法特別的規定，在電信管理法裡面的規定是，如果要把這個流量拿出去給第三人使用，第一個，會變成要經過當事人同意；第二個，可能是要把這些資料經過處理之後，要做去識別化，讓第三人是無從識別的這些資料，也就是，不是個人資料才能去處理。這在電信管理法相關的法規是有規範……"],["吳委員宗憲：這個部分可能麻煩你們要釋疑，還有補充一些資料給我們一下。"],["鄭副主任其昀：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想請教，你有沒有主動告訴申請手機門號這些民眾，你的資料可能會被這樣拿去運用、拿去販賣，我們不要說流出去啦！你會不會拿去做正常的販賣、商業的使用？你有沒有在他們來申辦門號的時候跟他們講有這個風險？"],["鄭副主任其昀：報告委員，這可能就要再問一下電信的主管機關。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告，我們這個行動寬頻服務契約裡面來講的話，對於在跟當事人比如說，他要申請使用這個電信服務的時候，包括它的處理、利用，還有這些相關的條件，在定型化契約裡面都會告知。"],["吳委員宗憲：那定型化契約有時候叫我們勾選一些東西嘛，對不對？通常我都是勾不要啊！定型化契約我看完都勾不要。"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，如果你勾選不要的話，就不會納入剛才所講，類似人潮分析那個東西。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝董事長！這個問題非常好，但我跟各位報告一下，今天我運氣好，因為我念法律的，我還有耐心去細看每個契約的條文，但是民眾呢？你一個定型化契約丟在那邊厚厚一本就叫他簽名，我個人認為這對民眾的保障其實不足，更何況你把他們的資料拿去販賣，那這樣子他根本搞不清楚啊！你的說明有沒有說明清楚？他到電信公司或是通訊行去辦了一個門號，就這個定型化契約一本丟給他請他簽名，勾選幾個位置叫他簽名，實務上都是這樣啊！問題是你能期待他們能夠把定型化契約搞清楚嗎？所以我不認為，你講這個定型化契約已經跟人民講過了，那就算數、就沒我的事，我不認同這樣啦！","最後我跟各位講一個，如果你們真的對於個資這麼喜歡研究，其實你們去看一下111年憲判字第13號，它在討論健保資料的時候，它其實有討論到很多東西啦！所以你們先去釐清一下法官他們對於健保資料是怎麼認定的，他是怎麼樣要求要去識別化，要完全切斷資料內容跟特定主題之間的關聯線索？這個就麻煩你們瞭解一下。","另外，在憲判字第13號判決有提到，如果這些資料被濫用，譬如說這次王義川的事件我想提告呢？我的救濟管道在哪裡？麻煩你們去研議一下，參考一下健保資料被濫用的話，被侵害人是怎麼救濟？你們是不是應該要去思考一個救濟的管道來告訴人民，尤其是這一次，假設最後檢察官調查受害人是200萬民眾呢？那我們是不是要搞一個團體訴訟來告中華電信、告國家，所以這部分麻煩你們釐清一下。我們覺得事情發生就發生了，但是我很需要的是一個救濟的方式，你把救濟方式告訴我，我們來告訴民眾，你們都有這個權力，如果你今天對於我的電信公司，或者是對於國家的管理有意見的話，甚至我可能要求國賠啊！好不好？再麻煩你們能夠研議一下。"],["郭董事長水義：補充報告，個人資料跟數據應用分析是兩件事，個人資料一定要根據國家的法令，所以絕對不會外流；數據應用分析是要去識別化之後，而且得到的是輪廓分析，絕對沒有個人化資料。但即使是這樣，個人可以選擇不提供加入人潮分析相關這樣的一個數據應用。"],["主席（邱委員若華代）：我們請郭董事長會後再向吳宗憲委員討論。"],["吳委員宗憲：你要照做啊，你不能這樣子搞啦！定型化契約簽一簽就沒事了，我跟你講不能這樣……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，我們會處理……"],["吳委員宗憲：另外我補充一個，這個事件沒有絕對，你說絕對不會流出去，我跟你講，沒那種事情。我辦過多少案子，駭客進去就把東西偷出來，不肖的員工把東西流出去，所以沒有絕對這種事情，我們只能盡力去防範。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：個資法也已經修正，我們會努力去處理這個事情，謝謝委員，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員的發言。","下一位我們請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","張智倫"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-06-03"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135801_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.8872187500000002,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9.430343750000002,"end":10.544093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12.400343750000001,"end":14.864093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.22659375,"end":17.344718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.53034375,"end":17.918468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.918468750000002,"end":17.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.47034375,"end":27.419093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.718468750000003,"end":42.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":34.118468750000005,"end":34.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.74159375,"end":46.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.63971875,"end":61.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.64596875,"end":80.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.329093750000006,"end":63.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.54409375,"end":64.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.79721875,"end":64.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.92346875,"end":67.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.22721875,"end":67.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.80909375,"end":69.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.97784375,"end":70.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.02409375,"end":71.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.91409375,"end":73.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.64784375,"end":76.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.49971875,"end":80.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.13221875,"end":83.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.74784375,"end":87.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.94971875,"end":91.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.84784375000001,"end":95.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.52659375,"end":107.20409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.20409375000001,"end":120.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.85784375,"end":108.95909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.29909375000001,"end":130.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.16659375,"end":131.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.87534375,"end":136.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.93784375,"end":138.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.96721875,"end":138.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.27096875,"end":138.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.38471875000002,"end":139.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.04284375,"end":150.80909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.97784375,"end":156.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.73221875000002,"end":161.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.11534375000002,"end":164.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.08534375000002,"end":172.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.34159375000002,"end":173.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.28221875,"end":182.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.88846875000002,"end":183.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.05284375000002,"end":191.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.85846875000001,"end":186.53346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.41034375,"end":194.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.68409375000002,"end":197.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.26596875,"end":199.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.35846875000001,"end":201.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.31596875000002,"end":203.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.37034375000002,"end":206.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.93534375000002,"end":212.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.63471875000002,"end":221.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.42659375000002,"end":226.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":222.64596875,"end":222.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.25284375,"end":228.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.36659375000002,"end":234.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.98159375,"end":244.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.65096875,"end":246.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.70971875,"end":248.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.80221875,"end":254.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.09659375,"end":262.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.09534375000004,"end":264.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.52534375,"end":271.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.22909375,"end":280.30784375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那有答跟沒有答一樣啦 不然我跟你講 你要是不懂得立法院怎麼運作 你去問一下你們那個法律事務處的副處副總經理啦 魏惠珍他以前是柯總召的助理嘛 他應該很了解立法院的運作啦 那我們希望你還是能夠表示啦 不然你不懂就去問他好了 好不好"},{"start":312.531,"end":335.127,"text":"那既然你這麼講的話那再來我請教我跟那個個資保護委員會的那個正副處長我將請問一下這些手機流量定位服務這些個資的再利用是用什麼合法的方式釋出你們有什麼合法的方式可以把這些資料給外面的人"},{"start":335.802,"end":337.043,"text":"這在電信管理法的法規是有多規範?"},{"start":363.342,"end":389.432,"text":"這部分可能要麻煩你們要示意或是還有補充一些資料給我們一下那我想請教你那你有沒有主動告訴這些民眾申請這些手機門號這些民眾你的資料可能會被這樣的運用拿去販賣我們不要說流出去啦你會不會拿去做正常的販賣商業的使用你有沒有在他們來申辦門號的時候有跟他們講這個風險"},{"start":391.089,"end":391.109,"text":"請那個..."},{"start":415.69,"end":437.443,"text":"報告委員如果您勾選不要的話就不會納入剛才所講類似人草分析的這個問題這問題非常好但我跟各位報告一下今天我運氣好因為我念法律的我還有耐心去細看每個法律的條文契約的條文但是民眾呢你一個定義化契約丟在那邊厚厚一本你就叫他簽名"},{"start":438.303,"end":450.536,"text":"我個人認為這對民眾的保障其實是不足更何況你把他們的資料拿去販賣那這樣子他根本搞不清楚啊你的說明有沒有說明清楚"},{"start":451.513,"end":477.435,"text":"他到電信公司去或是那個通訊行去辦了一個門號就這個定型化企業一本丟給他請他簽名都拿幾個位置叫他簽名實務上都是這樣啦問題是你能期待他們能夠把定型化企業搞清楚嗎所以我不認為說我講一個這定型化企業我已經跟人民講過了那就算數就沒我的事我不認同這樣啦好那最後我跟各位講一個"},{"start":478.716,"end":506.012,"text":"如果你們真的對於個資這麼喜歡研究其實你們去看一下那個111年憲判制13號他在討論健保資料的時候他其實有討論到很多東西啦所以呢你們去先釐清一下那個法官他們對於健保資料他是怎麼認定的他是怎麼樣要求要去識別化要完全切斷資料內容跟特定主題之間的關聯線索這個這個"},{"start":507.933,"end":524.384,"text":"你就麻煩你們了解一下另外在憲判制13號他有提到如果這些資料被濫用比如說這王逸川的事件我想提到我的救濟管道在哪裡麻煩你們去研議一下參考一下健保資料被濫用的話"},{"start":525.325,"end":549.231,"text":"被侵害的人是怎麼救濟你們是不是應該要去思考一個救濟的管道來告訴人民尤其是這一次假設最後檢察官調查受害人是200萬民眾呢那我們是不是要來搞一個團體疏通來告中華電信告國家所以這部分麻煩你們釐清一下我們覺得事情發生就發生了但是我很需要的是一個救濟的方式你把救濟方式告訴我那我們來告訴"},{"start":550.618,"end":566.537,"text":"吳宗你們都有這個權利如果你今天對於我的電信公司或者是對於國家的管理有意見的話我甚至我可能要求國賠啊好不好再麻煩你們能夠研議一下我要補充報告個人資料跟數據應用分析是兩件事"},{"start":567.037,"end":582.942,"text":"個人資料一定要根據國家的法令所以絕對不會外流數據應用分析是要去識別化之後而且是得到輪廓分析絕對沒有個人化資料但即使是這樣個人可以選擇不提供"},{"start":584.042,"end":603.312,"text":"加入這個人潮分析相關的這樣的一個數據應用我們請郭董事長會後再向我們吳宗憲委員你要照做啊你不能這樣子搞啦你說你覺得錢錢就沒事我跟你講另外我補充一個這個世界沒有絕對你說絕對不會流出去我跟你講沒那種事情我辦過多少案子派客進去就把東西偷出來"},{"start":604.383,"end":605.344,"text":"謝謝吳宗憲委員的發言下一位我們請洪孟楷"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}