{"error":false,"id":["153468"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153468,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153468","日期":"2024-06-03","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-03T12:48:16+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-03T12:57:23+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:07","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707ddde9bf60ce8530159c493b59145da8fe7a5eaa3f1fb9be2077d9df624e048115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:48:16 - 12:57:23","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1398,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時48分）請一下黃部長、陳主委、法務部的黃次長跟中華電信的郭董事長。"],["主席：請黃部長、陳主委、中華電信郭董事長還有黃次長。"],["張委員啓楷：不好意思，一次要四位重量級主管上來，因為這個事情很嚴重，老大哥正在看著你，你跟我的足跡都被看光光了，全民現在很關注這個案子，所以我請四位主管一定要非常注意這個事情。這個事情有兩個面向，第一個，凡走過必留下痕跡，現在是數位時代，有人說什麼王義川吹牛或是被神明附身，現在說膝蓋想到的。現在這個數位時代，到底他的資料從哪裡來？三大電信公司有做這個事情嗎？這個抹煞得掉嗎？只要有做，這一定查得出來，對不對？陳主委、法務部一定查得出來，這件事情是閃不開的，這是第一個點。","第二個，它是一個客觀的事實。我從一早到現在聽到的都是大家先幫三大電信公司背書，主委找他們來問一下，他們說沒有，這樣就……這個人民相信嗎？它是個客觀的事實！所以法務部及和NCC，NCC是主管機關、法務部要捍衛人民的權利，人民在怕足跡被看光光啊！你們有責任耶！這個客觀的事實你們要去把它查清楚，你們這樣才對得起人民，是不是這樣？所以拜託4位，包括部長，好不好？我們把這兩個前提先講了。","既然是客觀的事實，我們就繼續追，繼續追追追，我給大家看這個，我們辦公室在第一時間點就打了一通很重要的電話，不管王義川是「畫唬爛」還是他在那裡講，在他的「脆」（Threads）上面，他說要「介紹一個用了很久的『手機信令資料分析方法』」，他說，這一間數據公司就可以這樣做了，我說的怎麼是「畫唬爛」！","那要追真相啊！客觀的事實。我們辦公室就打了電話給王義川「脆」上面分享的數據公司，跟數據公司通話問他問題，得到三個很重要的資訊。我們一起看一下，他說資訊公司會得到一組代表這個個人代號的Cookie；第二，可以透過這一組代碼去分析這個人在這段時間的足跡；第三個最恐怖，他說他也可以做。一個數據公司而已喔！他說可以比對不同時間活動的不重複人數比例，這是不是跟王義川說的一樣？主委、次長、部長，王義川怎麼說？他可以查得出來，民進黨112選前之夜和民眾黨519小草活動、524青鳥活動的人流組成不同。他說的是不是跟這間數位公司說的一樣？","我辦公室的對話是這樣，因為王義川說有這間公司，做得到嘛！對不對？這個大家進他的「脆」查這個公司還查得到。我辦公室的助理打去，問他「我假設今天五月辦了一場活動、六月辦了另一場活動，那我能不能知道五月的活動和六月活動裡面的人有沒有重複」？你看這間公司怎麼說，他說「可以，因為他那個會有一個詞，類似就是廣告ID的這個詞」，其實他說的是Cookie，他說你透過這樣去做比對，你就可以知道出席者到底有沒有重複這個事情。我的助理繼續跟他追下去，助理怎麼問？說他這個東西會不會有個資的問題啊？「我是無法理解　你如果今天是以電信數據的話，為什麼會有Cookie這東西」。我們今天從早上到現在，從王義川開始說這個事情到……最重要的一個觀念是什麼？你們提供的到底是數據還是個資，目前看起來，照這個公司說的拿到的，是個資喔！是不是？這個問題嚴不嚴重？主委、次長，一個數位公司拿得到這樣的資料嗎？這是王義川說的公司，他說他做出來的東西跟王義川是一樣的啊！所以好好地查，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們好好去查。"],["張委員啓楷：次長和主委，回去先查一下。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好。"],["張委員啓楷：提這個還有一個非常重要的重點，就是3家數據公司口說無憑啦，不是你說沒提供就沒有，我們請法務部和NCC要進去查！現在民眾都檢舉了，對不對？要查嘛！給人民一個安心的答案。第二個，中華電信公司董事長在這裡，現在繪聲繪影地，包括你們之前有什麼大數據的總監，對於這個人民到現在都沒有答案，拜託一下，你如果要讓人民真的安心，你們一定要去把它查清楚，好不好？","現在有人說到底是違法在哪裡？你從個資法的第二條去看，個資法定義很清楚，「其他得以直接或間接方式識別該個人之資料」，剛才提到那間公司說的，王義川說的就是嘛！違反個資法第二條，對不對？再下來，他還違反了哪一個法，個資法違反了，所以我們現在要查的是什麼？主委、部長及次長，第一個，他的資料到底是哪裡來的，大家認為他的資料從哪裡來？如果3家電信公司都沒做，會有這個東西？不可能嘛！是不是？現在更恐怖的，我剛才有給大家看，連一個數據公司、民間的都說他拿得到，那麼這要查的是兩個方向了喔！3家電信公司，包括中華電信，你們給數據公司的資料有流出來嗎？你是不是真的做到你講的個資沒出去、你已經去識別化，這個都要查啊！是不是這樣？所以不是只有你直接跟王義川或者跟民進黨，那中間的中介到底是什麼，這要查清楚。","第二個，我們民眾黨已經去函給中華電信嘛！對不對？就是這段時間只要是王義川……"],["郭董事長水義：還沒有收到……"],["張委員啓楷：你說沒有嘛！"],["郭董事長水義：還沒有收到。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有。其實通常是什麼？有兩種可能，這個客觀的事情，自己要證實說中華電信沒有做過這樣的一個所謂的統計和分析啦！到目前都是口說無憑，這其實要由法務部、由NCC進去查，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好。"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛有做了一個決議嘛！就是這段時間資料會進來，那我今天質詢很重要的一個點，不是只針對3家電信公司客觀的事實要呈現，有沒有中間……的數位公司，一定要查清楚，好不好？","最後我做個簡單的總結，不要浪費大家的時間。目前發現法律的問題是什麼？就是個人唯一的那個識別碼（Cookie, Mac, IMEI），有沒有可能被電信業外洩的，這是很重大的侵害，尤其他如果拿到之後做交叉比對，他就可以確認你個人的身分。","而我們的個資，老實說現在還碰到一個很大問題，我們的個資法規範不夠重視，主委應該最瞭解，歐盟通用資料保護規則（GDPR）早就納保護規範，全世界已經有五十多個國家用這種規範，包括日本及韓國都有，我們為什麼沒有？所以拜託主委，你要回去之前趕快修法、趕快把它補強，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就個資法有個資……"],["張委員啓楷：就去做嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，好。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：非常非常重要，老大哥是不是真的就在看著你？我拜託4位……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好。"],["張委員啓楷：要讓人民可以安心，要不然老實講，這個事情把它應付一下而已，最後說什麼「畫唬爛」，我跟你講，人民那個疑問一定都是在的，這對臺灣是非常非常不好的一件事情。拜託大家喔！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員的發言，也請中華電信再回復張啓楷委員的發文。","下一位請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","張智倫"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-06-03"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135801_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.640343750000003,"end":17.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.96909375,"end":23.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.59346875,"end":20.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.12034375,"end":22.778468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.824718750000002,"end":26.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.402218750000003,"end":28.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.26221875,"end":36.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.10596875,"end":33.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.30846875,"end":33.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.48096875,"end":45.509093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.76221875,"end":47.939093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.97284375,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.12471875,"end":49.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.470343750000005,"end":50.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.34784375,"end":53.744093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.14471875,"end":56.460968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.203468750000006,"end":58.165343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.485968750000005,"end":62.063468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.73846875,"end":64.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.23596875,"end":66.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.80096875000001,"end":68.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.96534375,"end":70.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.28159375,"end":72.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.48784375000001,"end":73.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.02784375,"end":75.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.05284375000001,"end":76.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.85846875,"end":79.00596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.25471875000001,"end":81.09846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.67221875,"end":82.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.85346875,"end":85.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.19471875,"end":87.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.96659375,"end":89.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.93659375,"end":93.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.07534375,"end":96.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.39971875,"end":99.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.30221875000001,"end":101.31471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.90534375,"end":103.25534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.84596875000001,"end":106.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.68096875,"end":108.45284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.68909375000001,"end":110.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.76034375,"end":112.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.29596875,"end":115.42221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.52346875,"end":117.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.64971875,"end":118.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.10096875,"end":120.68721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.05846875,"end":124.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.21409375,"end":124.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.20971875000001,"end":126.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.25596875000001,"end":127.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.09534375,"end":129.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.42846875,"end":130.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.28471875,"end":132.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.06909375,"end":134.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.12784375,"end":137.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.78159375,"end":139.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.39721875,"end":143.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.16034375,"end":145.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.96159375000002,"end":147.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.94034375,"end":149.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.13409375,"end":152.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.85096875000002,"end":153.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.58471875,"end":156.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.45784375000002,"end":158.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.16221875000002,"end":161.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.34721875,"end":165.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.92909375000002,"end":170.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.80596875,"end":171.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.15596875,"end":173.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.14721875,"end":176.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.69534375,"end":177.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.58534375000002,"end":179.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.01971875,"end":181.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.87596875,"end":184.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.58846875,"end":185.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.43221875,"end":187.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.01846875,"end":191.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.42284375,"end":194.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.29159375,"end":197.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.07596875000002,"end":199.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.59034375000002,"end":201.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.42534375000002,"end":203.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.30284375000002,"end":204.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.12971875000002,"end":205.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.41221875000002,"end":207.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.36971875,"end":209.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.11221875,"end":214.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.15784375,"end":216.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.22909375,"end":217.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.37659375,"end":220.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.40971875000002,"end":223.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.83971875,"end":226.17284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.03346875000003,"end":229.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.83471875,"end":231.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.22659375,"end":234.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.09971875000002,"end":235.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.26409375000003,"end":236.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.10346875000002,"end":240.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.51659375000003,"end":242.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.32221875000002,"end":246.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.47346875000002,"end":247.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.26221875000002,"end":249.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.62471875000003,"end":255.23159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.41721875000002,"end":256.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.79659375,"end":259.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.65284375000005,"end":260.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.15471875000003,"end":263.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.07409375000003,"end":265.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.93034375,"end":266.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.29721875,"end":268.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.50784375,"end":271.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.81971875,"end":276.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.12284375,"end":276.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.79784375,"end":278.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.58659375,"end":282.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.73784375,"end":285.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.53471875,"end":287.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.51346875,"end":288.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.09534375000004,"end":291.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.54659375,"end":292.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.36909375,"end":294.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.66409375,"end":296.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.89596875,"end":297.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.34721875,"end":300.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.38034375,"end":303.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.13096875,"end":307.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.10909375,"end":311.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.88096875,"end":313.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.63596875,"end":314.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.74534375,"end":318.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.90096875,"end":323.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.59221875000003,"end":325.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.25846875,"end":327.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.14846875,"end":328.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.27909375,"end":330.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.91159375,"end":334.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.67471875,"end":338.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.88909375000003,"end":344.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.00659375000004,"end":346.91346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.60534375000003,"end":349.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.18721875,"end":351.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.24596875000003,"end":353.24159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.56221875,"end":355.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.16096875,"end":357.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.01721875000004,"end":364.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.46346875,"end":365.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.28596875000005,"end":366.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.38284375,"end":368.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.96909375,"end":370.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.58034375,"end":373.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.80784375,"end":376.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.00159375000004,"end":378.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.53721875,"end":378.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.84909375,"end":381.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.47346875000005,"end":382.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.02159375,"end":385.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.84409375,"end":386.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.70471875000004,"end":388.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.70409375,"end":391.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.01596875,"end":395.39534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.45846875,"end":402.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.03971875,"end":404.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.25034375,"end":406.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.86596875000004,"end":408.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.08096875,"end":410.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.92034375000003,"end":412.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.08034375000005,"end":414.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.21096875,"end":415.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.86471875,"end":418.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.10909375,"end":419.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.18909375000004,"end":419.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.36596875000004,"end":424.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.96034375000005,"end":427.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.97659375,"end":430.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.76096875,"end":433.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.39346875,"end":436.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.02159375,"end":438.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.84846875000005,"end":439.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.74284375,"end":440.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.80596875000003,"end":441.76784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.45971875000004,"end":443.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.33284375000005,"end":444.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.32846875,"end":450.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.25159375000004,"end":453.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.44096875,"end":455.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.41534375000003,"end":460.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.08971875000003,"end":461.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.96721875000003,"end":470.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.58596875,"end":475.06221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.41659375,"end":479.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.32721875000004,"end":481.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.18346875000003,"end":485.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.36846875000003,"end":487.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.53284375000004,"end":498.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.24471875,"end":495.27846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.12596875,"end":501.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.24784375,"end":506.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.59721875,"end":508.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.86284375,"end":511.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.46159375,"end":519.9497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.7778437500001,"end":512.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.57409375,"end":522.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.0715937500001,"end":532.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.7084687500001,"end":525.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.1597187500001,"end":527.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.3703437500001,"end":529.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.06221875,"end":529.0959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.8759687500001,"end":536.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.2678437500001,"end":538.6472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.11971875,"end":546.62909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":16.086,"end":22.713,"text":"請下黃部長還有陳主委黃部的黃次長跟中華電信的郭董事長"},{"start":32.281,"end":53.301,"text":"不好意思一次要四位重量級上來因為這個事情很嚴重這是老大哥正在看著你你跟我的這個足跡都被看光光了全民現在是很關注這個案子所以我請四位主管一定要非常注意這個事情這個事情有兩個面向第一個 凡走過必留下痕跡"},{"start":55.285,"end":78.738,"text":"現在是數位時代啊有的人說什麼王一川、韋禾蘭還是說什麼以後新名復生現在說誰該想到的現在這個數位時代到底他的資料哪裡來山大電信公司有做這個事情嗎這個摩薩德調嗎只要有做這一定查得出來對不對"},{"start":80.482,"end":93.014,"text":"陳志偉這邊法務部這邊一定查得出來 這樣大家閃不起啦這是第一個點 第二個他是一個客觀的事實所以我從一早到現在我聽到的都是"},{"start":94.233,"end":117.864,"text":"大家先幫三大電信公司先給他背書 啊 主委你找他來 問一下 他說沒有 這樣就 這人民相信嗎 他是個客觀的事實啊 所以法務部跟NCC NCC是主管機關啊 法務部要捍衛人民的權益啊 人民在怕足跡被看光光啊 你們有責任欸 是個客觀的事實 你們要去幫他查清楚 你們才對得起人民啊 是不是這樣"},{"start":119.165,"end":145.422,"text":"所以拜託四位喔包括保定好不好我們把這兩個前提先講了好那本席既然是客觀的事實我們就進去追進去追追追我給大家看一個我們辦公室啊在第一個時間點就擋了一種很重要的點位王一川不管你是維吾爾人還是他剛才講他在他的槌上面"},{"start":147.008,"end":159.807,"text":"他說他要介紹一種用了很久的手機信用資料分析方法右下角他說一間公司數據公司他說這間公司怎麼做?我說怎麼維護人?"},{"start":163.39,"end":191.167,"text":"好 那最真相啊 客觀的事實啊我們辦公室就打了電話給王逸川這個脆三面分享的數據公司跟數據公司通話 問一問題得到三個很重要的資訊來 那這位看一看他講啊資訊公司會得到一組代表這個個人代號的cookie第二 可以透過這一組代碼去分析這個人在這段時間的足跡第三個同胸部"},{"start":192.489,"end":220.175,"text":"他說一百兩折啊 一個數據公司而已喔他說他在比對不同的時間活動的不寵物人士的比例這是不是王一川說的一樣注意 市長 不定王一川他說他可以查得出來民進黨112選前事業跟民眾黨519小草活動跟524的清涼活動人流組成不同他說的是不是跟這間數位公司說的是一樣"},{"start":222.418,"end":248.826,"text":"好我再給他看下一張我的辦公室對話是這樣因為王逸川公有這間公司會做得到嘛對不對這個大家進他的槌查這個公司還查得到我的辦公室早日卡去他說啦我問他我要辦一個五月辦一段活動六月要辦一段活動那我能不能知道五月的活動跟六月的活動裡面的人有沒有重複你看這間公司怎麼說他說可以啊"},{"start":250.643,"end":275.878,"text":"因為他那個會有一個詞 這個類似就是廣告ID那個詞 其實他說會cookie啦 他說你透過這樣去做比對 你就可以知道出席者到底有沒有重複這個事情 我的助理繼續跟他對 助理阿們 他說這樣 你這東西會不會有個資的問題啊 我沒辦法理解啊 你如果是用電信的數據的話 怎麼會有cookie這個東西"},{"start":276.843,"end":303.687,"text":"我們今天可以到現在嗎?從王逸川開始說這個事情到現在,同時一個觀念是什麼?你們提供的到底是數據還是個資?沒有人看起來,叫這個公司說的,拿到是個資喔,是不是?這問題嚴重嗎?所以,市長,一個數位公司拿得到這樣的資料嗎?這是王逸川說的公司啊"},{"start":305.165,"end":333.968,"text":"要說的所有東西跟王先生是一樣的啊所以好啊查好不好部長跟諸位先回去先去查一下那提這個還有一個非常重要的重點就是在這三家數據公司不是口抽無憑啦不是說你說沒有提供就沒有啊我們請法務部跟NCC要去一邊查現在民眾都檢舉了嘛對不對要查嘛給人民一個安心的答案就是包括中華電信公司當時在這裡"},{"start":336.114,"end":354.867,"text":"現在會勝會贏啊,包括你進行什麼大數據的總監啊這個人民到現在都沒有答案拜託一下,你如果讓人民真的要安心你們一定要去把它查清楚好不好來我們再看畫面的現在有人在說到底違法違在哪裡你從各支法的第二條去看"},{"start":356.186,"end":382.639,"text":"他個資法定義很清楚啊其他得以直接或間接方式識別該人的這個資料都要去跟公司講的王毅昌講的就是嘛委員個資法第一條對不對再來他違反了哪一個法我們看一下下一個上一張看一下上一張個資法違反了對不對來下一張下來來再下來好所以我們現在要查的是什麼"},{"start":386.761,"end":406.373,"text":"他的資料到底是哪裡來的?如果三家電信公司都沒有做,怎麼會有這些東西?不可能嘛,是不是?那現在更恐怖的,我再給大家看,連一個數據的公司,民間的他都說他都拿得到,那這要查的是兩個方向囉"},{"start":407.961,"end":436.243,"text":"三家電信公司包括中華電信你給數據公司的時候主流有拿出來嗎你是不是真的做到你講的個資不出來你已經去了這個四白話這個都要查啊是不是這樣所以不是只有你直接跟王逸川或者跟民進黨那個中間那個中介到底是什麼這要查得清楚第一我們民眾黨已經去函給中華電信了對不對我們就說這段時間只要是王逸川"},{"start":438.092,"end":461.16,"text":"你都沒有嗎?還沒有收到沒有?其實同情會是什麼?有兩種可能嘛有兩種可能就是你們要去做自己客觀的事情自己要證實說你沒有中華電信沒有做過這樣的一個這個所謂的統計跟分析啦到目前都是口說無憑嘛這其實有法務部有那個NCC是不會查好不好?好"},{"start":462.428,"end":485.249,"text":"那剛剛有做了一個結議了嘛就是這段時間資料會進來那我今天質詢很重要的一個點就是不是只有針對三家電信公司客觀的事實要呈現有沒有中間、中距的這個數位公司一定要查詢這個好不好最後我做個簡單的這個總結不要浪費大家的時間來我們再看下一張目前發言人問題是什麼就是個人唯一的那個識別碼那Cooking或是Mac"},{"start":486.414,"end":498.25,"text":"IMEC這個有沒有可能被電信業者是外洩的這是一個很重要的這個侵害尤其他如果拿到之後他做一個交叉他就可以確認你的身份地位你的這個個人這個身份"},{"start":499.218,"end":506.602,"text":"現在我們來碰到一個很大問題我們的個資法規範不夠重視歐盟通用資訊的保護規則GDPR他早就納入保護的範圍全世界已經有50多個國家用這種規範包括日本、韓國都有我們為什麼沒有所以拜託注意你要回去進行"},{"start":523.131,"end":546.596,"text":"謝謝!"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}