{"error":false,"id":["153538"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153538,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153538","日期":"2024-06-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-30","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":30,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-05T09:09:46+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-05T09:20:38+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:52","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c980c0df4de8e0e4311e41b4d0ae556a0d9031d9cd4fff3a3cdda132672c464fa9d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:09:46 - 09:20:38","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":163,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時9分）主席，我們先請鄭部長。"],["主席：好，請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["沈委員發惠：部長早。今天我們主席所安排的是有關於科技偵查及保障法的審查，行政院在5月9號通過所謂的打詐新四法，5月17日在立法院院會一讀，交付我們本委員會來審查，我首先要請教部長，科技偵查法除了跟詐欺犯罪有高度相關之外，對於刑事偵查的強制偵查跟證據能力，事實上它也是整個廣泛的全面規定，在這次的立法過程中，我們把科技偵查及保障法放到打詐四法裡面，一定有它的道理，因為所謂的科技偵查本來應該是刑事訴訟裡面有關強制偵查以及證據能力的相關規定，現在為什麼放在打詐四法裡面，能不能請部長說明一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，因為詐欺罪在整個犯罪的比例是非常大，而且人民也非常痛恨，且詐團以及詐欺的手法也日新月異，因為他們會善用最新的科技，我們現在一定要有科偵法的制定以即時因應、來做打擊的利器，譬如說我們有GPS、M化車還有一些熱顯像儀可以針對詐團最新的這些犯罪型態予以壓制。"],["沈委員發惠：今天警政署是不是有來？警政署今天是副署長來，是不是？"],["主席：請陳副署長。"],["沈委員發惠：對不起，因為剛剛部長講的就直接牽涉到我們詐欺犯罪偵查當中的細節，所以我想要瞭解，我們既然把科技偵查法放到打詐四法裡面，表示目前在防制詐欺犯罪上面，科技偵查事實上已經變成非常重要的關鍵了。"],["陳副署長永利：是的。"],["沈委員發惠：我想請警政署這邊說明像什麼案例……例如說GPS追蹤器為什麼在偵辦過程中是必要的？為什麼M化車定位是重要的？熱顯像儀在整個偵辦過程中扮演什麼樣的角色？"],["陳副署長永利：報告委員，像現在的詐欺主要是領錢，就會有人流跟車流，包括車手，所以我們要能夠即時掌握他的行蹤，像GPS就可以發揮即時的功能。"],["沈委員發惠：如果沒有GPS，我們要掌握他們車手這樣換來換去是……"],["陳副署長永利：第一個，當然要耗費很大的人力，第二個，有可能會失敗。"],["沈委員發惠：失敗的可能性很高啦！"],["陳副署長永利：對。"],["沈委員發惠：那熱顯像儀呢？"],["陳副署長永利：像前一陣子所謂的禁囚或者機房，如果用熱顯像儀遠端監控的話，就可以透過這個儀器去瞭解裡面的人員動態，例如有多少人，它的動態怎麼樣等等，這個總比……如果是人去監控的話……"],["沈委員發惠：像現在這種新興的、跟擄人犯罪相結合的詐欺犯罪，這個熱顯像儀的功能是什麼？"],["陳副署長永利：對，像現在的詐欺集團大概都是複合式的，像之前柬埔寨這個案，我們淡水破了這個案，當然我們最希望的是能夠包括它的水房、機房，我們都希望能夠瞭解它室內的整個動態，我們才能夠採取所謂的……"],["沈委員發惠：好，副署長，我瞭解了，請回。部長，所以事實上可以這樣講，目前國人這麼痛恨詐欺，而且詐欺犯罪橫行的狀況之下，我們在整個偵辦過程當中，如果沒有輔以科技偵查，以我們的人力跟能力恐怕是難以防制的，如果這個科技偵查法一直沒有通過，它會有一些問題，像我們司法院過去也已經有好幾個判決有關使用M化車如110年度第4549號判決，GPS追蹤器在106年的第3788號，也都在判決當中判定這些科技偵查不符合刑事訴訟法的規定，所以把它的證據能力變成無效，這個是已經有確定的判決了。","所以我們目前應該要儘快的通過這個科技偵查法，或者把科技偵查的相關規定放在刑事訴訟法裡面也可以，但是不管怎麼樣，我們有科技偵查的法律授權非常重要，對不對部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，因為我們調查犯罪的方式絕對不能落後於……"],["沈委員發惠：對，否則我們在偵查過程中，就像游泳在追遊艇一樣，詐騙集團開著遊艇跑，我們偵辦人員游泳在後面追，沒有透過科技偵查的話，是很難防制這樣的詐欺犯罪。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["沈委員發惠：我想等一下在審查過程中，目前委員會裡面的成員對於究竟是要訂立專法，像我們今天這樣子的一個科技偵查及保障法，或者是把它列在刑事訴訟法裡，在刑事訴訟法再增列一個科技偵查專章，讓它作為強制偵查的整體規範，這部分部長有什麼樣看法？為什麼我們今天最後選擇訂立專法，而不是納入刑事訴訟法，一定有我們的理由啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，我想訂專法跟訂在刑事訴訟法，這是政策立法的選擇，但是我們認為訂專法是比較適當的，因為……"],["沈委員發惠：好，理由呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：最主要是因應整個科技的發展日新月異，我們即時因應犯罪手法的壓制，所以我們希望訂專法，整個立法的速度會比較快，對細部的事項會做比較完整的規範，法務部主管這個法規，因為對偵查這部分我們比較瞭解，所以我們訂專法的話可以即時去因應犯罪型態的處理，是有這個必要性的。"],["沈委員發惠：我瞭解，依我現在所看到的草案，現在我們的科技偵查及保障法或者是目前我們院內有委員所提案關於刑事訴訟法的修訂，其實內容幾乎是一模一樣。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["沈委員發惠：它只是在立法體制上面放在不同的位置上，有不同的思考，事實上我們訂立這個專法，其實科技偵查這部分包含兩個重要的元素在裡面，一個就是我們剛剛講的，廣泛的有關強制偵查、證據能力等相關，這些程序正義的部分是一個面向，讓這樣的科技偵查取得法律的依據，這是程序正義。","另外一個是剛剛警政署所講的，在偵查犯罪過程中發現真實，是我們發現真實的重要手段，也就是我們在發現真實跟程序正義這兩個之間來衡量，作為我們訂立這個專法──不管是專法或是刑事訴訟法裡面重要的精神。","如果是刑事訴訟法，我們知道整部刑事訴訟法的根本價值就是程序正義，它會著重在程序正義這個部分，在精神上面，它不只是詐欺犯罪，它幾乎是所有刑事偵查的通例，你如果是著重在發現真實的部分，就是我們要偵破、防制詐欺犯罪，在發現真實的精神上面，事實上訂立專法是比較妥當，一方面主管機關也不同，訂立專法的話，是我們法務部主管，如果到刑事訴訟法就變成司法院主管，當我們在發現真實過程中需要相關的法律規範，我們就必須要會銜司法院來做修改，這第一個。","第二個，像我們今天所看到的科偵法裡面，大概就針對GPS、M化車、熱顯像儀，問題是未來犯罪日新月異的速度超過我們想像，我們偵查需要新的、科技偵查的方式、手段、工具，可能它未來的變化也會超過我們想像的速度，所以如果放在刑事訴訟法裡面，一方面它影響了刑事訴訟法這一整部訴訟法的穩定性，另外一方面，我們如果是訂定專法的話，未來在因應新型態的技術、科技這些，在法律上面的因應都比較方便……"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這是我個人的看法，不過我相信本委員會裡面也有其他的看法，也許我們應該在刑事訴訟法裡面增列一個有關科技偵查整體性的授權規定，接下來其他具體的新科技偵查工具，我們就用這個科技偵查專法來訂定，這也許是一個折衷的辦法。","因為我占到接下來的時間，所以我就先質詢到這裡，接下來在廣泛討論或者是到逐條討論裡面，我們再來討論這些議題，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員，謝謝鄭部長。接下來請黃委員國昌質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-30","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","黃國昌","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案","agenda_id":"1135601_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.99096875,"end":15.066593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.437843750000003,"end":16.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.082843750000002,"end":21.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.17096875,"end":25.309718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.01846875,"end":28.836593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.414718750000002,"end":28.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.39346875,"end":31.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.07659375,"end":34.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.23221875,"end":36.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.66221875,"end":39.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.77159375,"end":41.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.10034375,"end":45.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.08284375,"end":47.095343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.820968750000006,"end":50.892218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.92159375,"end":52.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.09846875,"end":56.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.13596875,"end":57.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.17784375,"end":62.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.78471875,"end":64.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.67471875000001,"end":70.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.58096875000001,"end"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案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":189.844,"end":216.803,"text":"我們這個GPS追蹤器為什麼他他這個是必要在在偵辦過程中必要為什麼M化車定位為什麼重要熱顯像儀在這個這個整個偵辦過程中扮演什麼樣的角色像現在的詐欺他主要是領錢所以他就會有輪流跟車流包括車手所以我們要能夠即時的掌握他的行蹤那像這個GPS就可以我發揮我這個即時的功能"},{"start":216.943,"end":219.695,"text":"如果沒有GPS我們要掌握他們這樣車手換來換去是"},{"start":221.328,"end":225.031,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":247.81,"end":267.244,"text":"這個人去監控的話像現在這種像這種新興的這種擄人的擄人跟這個擄人犯罪相結合的這種詐欺犯罪這個熱選項以他的功能是什麼對對他的他像這個就是說現在詐欺集團大概都是複合式的那像之前這個柬埔寨這個案我們淡水破了這個案"},{"start":269.725,"end":270.906,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":292.691,"end":313.012,"text":"現在目前國人這麼痛恨詐欺而且詐欺犯罪橫行的狀況之下我們在整個偵辦過程當中確實已經如果沒有用俯以這個科技偵查恐怕我們以我們的人力跟我們的能力是沒有科技偵查是難以難以防制的所以這個"},{"start":314.468,"end":322.091,"text":"如果這個科技偵查法一直沒有通過他會有一些問題像我們事實上過去也已經有什麼司法院有好幾個判決好幾個判決對於這個有關使用這個M化車好像這個110年度的4549號判決那GPS追蹤器這106年的3788"},{"start":332.754,"end":351.553,"text":"也都在判決當中判定這些科這些科技偵查他不符合形式送法規定所以把他的證據能力變成無效這個是已經有確定的判決了所以所以我們目前要應該要盡快的通過這個科技偵查法或者是把科技偵查"},{"start":352.634,"end":368.611,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 規定,放在刑事訴訟法裏面也可以,但是不管怎麼樣,我們有這個科技偵查的法律授權非常重要對不對,副長。對,這個的確就是因為我們犯罪的一個調查方式,絕對不能落後於"},{"start":370.433,"end":396.849,"text":"否則我們在偵查過程中就像游泳在追遊艇一樣這個詐騙集團在開著遊艇跑我們偵辦人員在游泳後面追這個是難以沒有經過透過這個科技偵查是很難防制這樣子的詐欺犯罪但是這個我想等一下在審查過程中大家還是我們目前委員會裡面的成員大家對於這個究竟是要訂立一個專法"},{"start":398.038,"end":424.217,"text":"一個像我們今天這樣子一個科技偵查保障法或者是把它列在形式訴訟法形式訴訟法裡面再增列一個這個科技偵查專章好讓他跟做作為這個一個強制強制偵查的一個一個整體規範這部分部長怎麼樣看法為什麼今天最後我們選擇為什麼最後我們選擇用定力專法而不是納入形式訴訟法一定有我們的理由啊"},{"start":425.608,"end":447.208,"text":"謝謝委員。我想定裝法跟定在刑事署這是一個政策的一個立法的選擇。但是我們認為定裝法是比較適當的。因為對,最主要是因為整個一個科技的發展秩序因應我們即使因應整個犯罪的手法的一個壓制,所以我們希望定裝法這個速度會整個立法的速度會比較快,對細部的事項會比較做一個"},{"start":449.991,"end":476.904,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 規範,法務部主辦法規,我們也是希望對偵查這部分我們比較了解,所以我們定裝法的話可以及時去因應犯罪形態的處理,這個是有必要性的。這個其實以我現在所看到的草案,現在我們的科技偵查保障法或者是目前我們院內有委員所提案的關於刑事訴訟法的修訂,其實內容幾乎是一模一樣。"},{"start":478.024,"end":503.402,"text":"他只是在立法體制上面放在不同的位置還有不同的思考是事實上我們定立這個專法其實科技偵查這部分他其實還他包含了兩個重要的元素在裡面一個就是我們剛剛講的廣泛的這個這個有關強制偵查他證據能力等的相關這些程序正義的是一個面向程序正義是一個面向讓這樣的科技偵查取得法律的依據這是程序正義"},{"start":504.443,"end":528.148,"text":"另外一個是剛剛警政署所講的在偵查犯罪過程中發現真實我們要發現真實的一個重要的手段也就是我們在發現真實跟這個程序正義這兩個衡量之間來是作為我們定立這個專法不管是專法或是刑事訴訟法裡面重要的精神那當然在這個"},{"start":530.049,"end":533.49,"text":"刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法"},{"start":560.14,"end":577.175,"text":"是比較是是是比較比較妥當啦齁一方面主管機關也不同定力專法的話是我們法務部主管如果到刑事訴訟法就變成司法院主管好那這個這就我們的我們這個當我們在發現真實過程中需要的相關的法律規範我們就必須要會嫌"},{"start":578.55,"end":596.462,"text":"施法院來做修改。」這是第一個。第二個我們目前像我們今天所看到的這個科證法裡面大概就針對GPS針對M化車針對熱潛象儀。問題是未來這個犯罪它日新月異的速度超過我們的想像。我們偵查需要新的科技的偵查的"},{"start":597.262,"end":625.933,"text":"的方式手段工具可能他的變化也會未來會超過我們想像的速度所以如果在放在形式輸送法裡面一方面他影響了形式輸送法這一整部輸送法他的穩定性另外一方面我們如果是這個定力專法的話他未來再因應新的新型態的技術科技這些在法律上面的因應都比較方便這是我個人的看法不過我相信我們本委會裡面也有其他的看法是不是說我們也許應該我們在形式輸送法裡面"},{"start":627.177,"end":646.828,"text":"針裂一個有關科技偵查整體性的授權規定,接下來其他每一個具體的新的科技偵查的工具,我們就用科技偵查法專法來訂定,這也許是一個折衷的辦法,因為我站到接下來的時間我就先執行到這裡,接下來我們在廣泛討論或是逐條討論裡面我們再來討論這些議題好不好?"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}