{"error":false,"id":["153539"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153539,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153539","日期":"2024-06-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-30","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":30,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-05T09:20:51+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-05T09:33:55+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:04","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98b254ad27c227fd5be41b4d0ae556a0d9031d9cd4fff3a3cd73e96d8049ff7bf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:20:51 - 09:33:55","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":204,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時20分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請法務部部長以及司法院刑事廳廳長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長和李廳長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早！"],["李廳長釱任：委員早！"],["黃委員國昌：兩位早！針對科技偵查的法律授權，在新國會第一次總質詢的時候，從GPS到M化車，我已經質詢過上一任的行政院院長了，那個時候都說還在研議。今天終於研議出來了，但事實上，這一部有關於科技偵查的專法，我看完了以後，只有一個最根本的問題，那個最根本的問題是裡面到底有哪一個條文性質上不是屬於刑事訴訟法應該管轄的範圍？這個問題我在第一次質詢我們司法院秘書長立法計畫的時候，就講得非常的清楚，不管是線上的搜索，不管是有關於對行動通訊設備的科技偵查、住宅外的科技設備，相關的規定，在德國的刑事訴訟法裡面，全部都是規範在德國的刑事訴訟法，但是過去這二十年，因為我們司法院的消極、怠惰、不作為，根本沒有針對相關科技偵查需要的法律授權在刑事訴訟法當中予以檢討，搞到後來，我們的檢警用GPS這樣子一個最低階的科技偵查手段竟然違法，還被起訴，移送法辦，用M化車，我們花了納稅人的錢，從警政署甚至到高檢署採購了M化車，結果採購來的M化車沒有證據能力，在這整個過程當中，對於司法院的置身事外，我覺得不可思議！","我今天有一個最具體的問題，行政院版的科技偵查及保障法看起來洋洋灑灑，一部特別法只有11條的規定，11條的規定，如果把第一條、第十條、第十一條那些程序上的東西全部都拔掉，我只有一個最具體的問題，請教一下我們司法院的代表，有哪一條在性質上是不屬於刑事訴訟法？對強制處分作為，以及法定程序的控制，以及證據能力，有哪一條是不能規定在刑事訴訟法的？請司法院。"],["李廳長釱任：謝謝委員的指教。有關於司法院的立場部分，我大概先重申一下，如果我的資料沒有錯的話，我們司法院對於相關的修法一直都沒有離開過，而且都在……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起！我時間有限，我們是法律人，依法論法……"],["李廳長釱任：好，目前的話……"],["黃委員國昌：有哪一條是不能規定在刑事訴訟法的？請你具體指出來。"],["李廳長釱任：所以我剛剛才講108年的時候，司法院也曾經擬過一個刑事訴訟法的條文，把它列入在刑事訴訟法的專章裡面來做規範……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在這部法裡面有哪一條是不能或是不應該放在刑事訴訟法的？請司法院回答。"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分是政策選擇的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：所以在性質上面，本來就應該放在刑事訴訟法。劍青檢改開的研討會，部長，你有沒有去參加？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個研討會我沒有參加。"],["黃委員國昌：我建議部長去看一下那個研討會，有說辦案的需求。","有關於科技偵查的手段，我們打開天窗說亮話，只有限於打詐嗎？辦組織犯罪需不需要？辦國安犯罪需不需要？各式各樣的犯罪型態，在今天這個時候，都需要科技偵查的手段。從基層的檢察官到刑事訴訟法的學者，大家都主張，我們應該要回歸，放在刑事訴訟法裡面予以規範。這樣的聲音我不曉得部長有沒有聽到？司法院有沒有聽到？這就是為什麼台灣民眾黨一開始的時候就把它放在刑事訴訟法，接下來中國國民黨的召委吳宗憲也是把它放在刑事訴訟法，民主進步黨的召委鍾佳濱也是把它放在刑事訴訟法，結果大家等了半天，你們推出一個科偵法，只有11條的規定，那11條的規定掐頭去尾，實際上面真正有實質內容的只有3條，那3條全部都可以放在刑事訴訟法當中。我老實講，對於行政院延宕了這麼久，結果搞出一個11條的科偵法，而且裡面所有的性質上本來就應該放在刑事訴訟法的，我非常失望！","但我接下來問一個比較具體的問題，當初對於使用科技方法對位於非具隱私或私密合理期待的空間進行調查的時候，本來法務部科偵法的版本是有法律授權的依據及要求，為什麼到行政院版沒有？請部長說明。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個部分是我們認為既然在一個公共空間、在一個隱私期待比較低的環境……"],["黃委員國昌：所以不需要法律授權？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不要過度授權。"],["黃委員國昌：所以不需要法律授權？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個部分回到刑事訴訟法……"],["黃委員國昌：回到刑事訴訟法第幾條？"],["鄭部長銘謙：第二百二十八條、第二百三十條。"],["黃委員國昌：好，請一下司法院，對於這一種非具隱私或秘密期待空間的實施調查，用科技方法進行調查，直接用刑事訴訟法那個概括的條文作為授權的基礎，司法院認為足夠或不足夠？"],["李廳長釱任：第二百二十八條是任意偵查的概括授權規定……"],["黃委員國昌：是不是可以直接用第二百二十八條當作基礎？是嗎？你今天是代表司法院的立場喔！"],["李廳長釱任：我們的立場應該是可以的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我現在的問題就來了，今天司法院的立場說可以，司法院的立場會拘束法官嗎？為什麼這麼多刑事訴訟法的學者認為即使是對非具隱私或秘密合理期待空間的人或物實施調查，還是要有法律授權的基礎？特別是在看──請看一下，如果是在空中實施調查的話，你如果用第二百二十八條當作基礎的話，有沒有時間的限制？有還是沒有？請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：可以不需要有時間的限制嗎？請司法院。"],["李廳長釱任：主要還是看他偵查時間的長短對於人民的隱私期待……"],["黃委員國昌：這個不就正是我們在法律授權的時候應該要寫清楚嗎？你既然說對於隱私的期待。在空中實施的時候，對於人的隱私及資訊自主的侵入手段是比一般時候更強烈，司法院的立場要講清楚，因為這要負歷史責任的，萬一以後檢警用這樣子的手段，用刑訴第二百二十八條當作基礎，我們個案的法官如果不買單的話，誰要負責？這是我的問題。當初檢警用GPS的時候，在被移送法辦之前，所有的檢警都認為用第二百二十八條就可以當作授權的基礎，我說的對不對？請問部長，當初在被移送法辦，在法官跳出來講話以前，所有的人都認為用第二百二十八條就可以當基礎啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我們今天是要解決科技偵查……"],["黃委員國昌：對，我們今天就是要解決問題，所以我很擔心啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以訴訟法這部分既然可以解決，像剛剛委員講的GPS、M化車……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我現在在跟你講的是空中實施調查的問題，空中實施調查的問題沒有任何時間的限制，直接用刑訴第二百二十八條當作基礎……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個就像齊柏林的看見臺灣，公共空間本來就可以……"],["黃委員國昌：請司法院。"],["李廳長釱任：我回應一下委員的問題，對空中實施調查到底有沒有時間上的限制這個部分，主要的重點還是在於它對人民的隱私期待有沒有受到侵害。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["李廳長釱任：第二百二十八條是偵查的概括授權，它可以做，但是它一旦逾越侵害隱私期待的時候，那應該又有另外的法律授權。"],["黃委員國昌：那另外的法律授權是什麼？請說明。"],["李廳長釱任：可以用科偵法，用專法來做它的法律授權。"],["黃委員國昌：在第幾條？這個就是我的問題嘛！"],["李廳長釱任：二、三、四這個部分就是科技偵查法基本的授權。"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，剛剛你說二、三、四是什麼？"],["李廳長釱任：科技偵查法的第二條、第三條、第四條這個部分。"],["黃委員國昌：裡面有空中調查嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：我現在要說明的是空中調查在之前的草案裡面曾經出現過，但是對於空中調查、空中偵查的定義一直沒辦法做明確的定義，包括所謂的空中偵查到底是不是無人機之外的，包括在高空上的CCTV是不是也叫做空中偵查？這部分因為定義不明確……"],["黃委員國昌：所以需不需要時間上面的限制？不管今天是有人開，還是沒有人開、是用無人機，需不需要有時間上面的限制？這件事情很重要，所以我才請教司法院嘛！法務部有法務部的立場，我理解啦！法務部認為不需要控管，用刑訴第二百二十八條就可以了，但我就擔心，過去長時間以來，有很多人認為用刑訴第二百二十八條可以處理很多事，走到今天顯然就不行嘛！所以才需要針對科技偵查，不管是透過專法還是定在刑訴裡面給法律授權。","你們現在把本來有的條文拿掉了，而且那些條文還是很多刑事訴訟法的老師認為需要有法律具體授權的，你們現在把它拿掉，說回歸刑訴第二百二十八條，那我就問一個最根本的問題，時間上面的限制不需要有嗎？如果司法院認為時間上面的限制應該要有，那我最具體的問題就是：在哪裡？我覺得司法院在面對這個法案的時候，不要只想著不定在刑訴就沒有我的事，因為你們再回去聽聽，那些基層檢察官也好或刑事訴訟法的學者在論壇上面所發表的意見，一致的意見，全部都是要放在刑事訴訟法裡面。今天用科偵法這樣的一個專法，如果裡面除了本質上面是刑事訴訟的東西以外還有其他事情的話，我們還可以考慮，但我看完所有的條文，沒有一個條文是超越本來應該在刑事訴訟裡面規範的範圍。","時間到了啦！等一下我們在進行大體討論跟逐條討論的時候，我們再進一步深入的去追究，一個科技偵查法，11條的條文，裡面具有實質內容的只有3條，本來都應該可以放在刑事訴訟法，你全部都準用刑訴，在立法的體例上，讓大家搞不懂你搞這個專法要做什麼，為什麼不把它放在刑事訴訟法裡？謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：立法體例在通保法就有這樣一個特別的規定，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員、謝謝鄭部長、謝謝李廳長。","接下來有請陳委員俊宇質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-30","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","黃國昌","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案","agenda_id":"1135601_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.29971875,"end":13.294718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.598468750000002,"end":16.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.96471875,"end":19.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.21284375,"end":31.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.03034375,"end":36.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.75096875,"end":39.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.64909375,"end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具隱私或私密合理期待的空間進行調查的時候本來法務部科偵法的版本是有法律授權的依據跟要求為什麼到行政院版沒有來請部長說明"},{"start":375.089,"end":398.702,"text":"這部分我們是既然既在整個公共空間在一個一個隱私期待比較低的一個一個環境所以不需要法律授權不要過度授權所以不需要法律授權這部分回到刑事訴訟回來回到刑事訴訟法第幾條二、二、八條二、三、零好來請一下司法院針對對於這一種"},{"start":402.984,"end":426.136,"text":"非具隱私或秘密期待空間的實施調查用科技方法進行調查直接用刑事訴訟法那個概括的條文作為授權的基礎。司法院認為足夠或不足夠?就228條是任意偵查的概括授權的規定是不是可以直接用228條當作基礎?"},{"start":428.314,"end":439.853,"text":"是嗎來是今天是代表司法院的立場哦我們立場是應該是可以的好我現在的問題就來了今天司法院的立場說可以司法院的立場會拘束法官嗎"},{"start":441.233,"end":466.194,"text":"為什麼這麼多刑事訴訟法的學者認為即使是非具隱私或秘密合理期待空間的人或物實施調查還是要有法律授權的基礎因為特別是在看來請看一下如果是在空中實施調查的話你如果用228條當作基礎的話有沒有時間的限制有還是沒有請部長各位委員報告沒有"},{"start":469.795,"end":473.039,"text":"可以不需要有時間的限制嗎來請司法院只要是看他的偵查的時間的長短對於個人民的隱私期待他這個不就正是應該我們在法律授權的時候要寫清楚嗎你既然說"},{"start":488.796,"end":513.076,"text":"對於隱私的期待在空中實施的時候他對於人的隱私跟資訊自主的侵入的手段是比一般的時候更強烈司法院的立場要講清楚因為這要負歷史責任的喔如果萬一以後檢警用這樣子的手段用刑訴228條當作基礎我們個案的法官如果不買單的話誰要負責這是我的問題啊"},{"start":517.419,"end":528.227,"text":"當初檢警在用GPS的時候在被移送法辦之前所有的檢警都認為用228就可以當作授權的基礎我說的對不對來請問部長"},{"start":534.191,"end":558,"text":"當初在被移送法辦在法官跳出來講話以前所有的人都認為用228就可以當基礎啦各位各位報告我們今天是要解決就是是我們今天科技偵查對好科技偵查我們今天就是要解決問題所以我很擔心啊所以那個訴訟法這部分竟然可以解決像我們這個M花車那個該委員解決的GPS M花車對不起喔我現在在跟你講的"},{"start":558.92,"end":574.085,"text":"是空中實施調查的問題。空中實施調查的問題沒有任何時間的限制。直接用刑訴228當作基礎。這個就像齊柏女那個整個就是可以公共空間本來就是請示期待品的地方。來來來那個請司法院。"},{"start":575.166,"end":597.061,"text":"我回應一下委員的問題對空中實施調查主要他到底有沒有時間上的限制這個部分主要還是重點他到底會人民的隱私期待有受到侵害他228條是蓋過偵查的蓋過授權他可以做但是他一旦越越遇越的侵害隱私期待的時候那應該有另外的法律授權另外的法律授權是什麼請說明可能用科偵法用專法來做他的法律授權在第幾條"},{"start":607.307,"end":622.126,"text":"在第幾條?這個就是我的問題嗎?二、三、四這部分就是科技偵查法的基本的授權。二、三、四那現在因為在之前在草案不好意思喔,剛剛你說二、三、四是什麼?科技偵法的第二條、第三條、第四條這個部分"},{"start":622.526,"end":651.182,"text":"那裡面有空中調查嗎我現在要說明的是空中調查在之前的草案裡面曾經出現過但是對於空中調查、空中偵查的定義一直沒辦法做明確的定義包括所謂的空中偵查到底是無人機之外的包括CCTV在高空上的是不是也叫做空中偵查那這部分因為定義上的不明確所以需不需要時間上面的限制不管啦今天你是有人開啦還是沒有人開啦是用無人機啦"},{"start":652.162,"end":665.3,"text":"需不需要時間上面的限制?這件事情很重要所以我才請教司法院嘛法務部有法務部的立場我理解啦法務部認為說不需要控管我們用刑訴228就可以了但我就擔心嘛"},{"start":666.511,"end":685.235,"text":"過去長時間以來有很多人認為用刑訴228可以處理很多事走到今天顯然就不行嘛所以才需要針對科技偵查不管是透過專法還是定在刑訴裡面給法律授權嘛那你們現在把本來有的條文把它拿掉了"},{"start":686.806,"end":709.503,"text":"而且那些條文還是很多刑事訴訟法的老師認為需要有法律具體授權的你們現在把他拿掉說回歸刑訴228那我就一個最根本的問題啊時間上面的限制不需要有嗎如果司法院認為時間上面的限制應該要有那我最具體的問題就是在哪裡在哪裡"},{"start":711.687,"end":714.468,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":736.687,"end":765.567,"text":"那今天用科偵法這樣的一個專法如果裡面除了本質上面是形式訴訟的東西以外還有其他的事情的話我們還可以考慮但我看完所有的條文沒有一個條文是超越本來應該在形式訴訟裡面規範的範圍時間到了啦等一下我們再進行大體討論跟主條討論的時候我們再進一步深入的去追究一個科技偵查法"},{"start":766.986,"end":781.568,"text":"十一條的條文,裡面具有實質內容只有三條,本來就都應該可以放在刑事訴訟法,你全部都准用刑訴,全部都准用刑訴,在立法的體力上讓大家搞不懂,你搞這個專法要做什麼,你為什麼不把它放在刑事訴訟法裡。好,謝謝。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}