{"error":false,"id":["153563"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153563,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153563","日期":"2024-06-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-05T10:09:03+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-05T10:23:02+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:59","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c986e5d61f249d14ceda6cabf0dc0d1a8b768f95e3d087843c2dcfa479eaf0f6b1a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:09:03 - 10:23:02","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":273,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時9分）先邀請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。部長好。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，2030年前不缺電嗎？本席記得您來拜訪的時候，您告訴我一句話，我滿心期待，你說你上任之後要盤點臺灣所需的電力，所以目前情況究竟是如何，請做說明。"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，我去拜訪您的時候，我曾經確實這麼說，我會馬上盤點目前的供電跟需求的狀況。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你盤點的結果如何呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我盤點的結果，一直到上個禮拜，我們是完全可以滿足的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：完全可以滿足？"],["郭部長智輝：完全可以滿足。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那換句話說，我可以跟你定調在2030年前不缺電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：但是因為昨天、前天的AI的需求出來以後……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，變化很大。"],["郭部長智輝：變化很大，所以我們要重新再估計。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你預計什麼時候重新再估計？因為AI的速度並不是1加1加1，這個速度很快，所以在這樣的情況之下，你重新盤點臺灣的電，你什麼時候可以給社會大眾來說明清楚？"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，如果說AI的數據中心投資，我想如您所說的，它可能一次就好幾家出來了，以我們目前的估計，如果明年要設置完，因為它不會是一開始就要這個電，它是明年底之前要設電，我大概可以支持5家到6家的數據中心。但是如果超過，譬如說一次來10家，那麼我們可能就是要考慮我用什麼最快的方法可以增加他們需要的電。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來支應他們需要的電？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以換句話說，政府是全力協助？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那全力協助之餘，我們的來源怎麼來？請做說明。"],["郭部長智輝：我們的來源目前是這樣，就是我所瞭解的，蓋一座電廠大概要6年。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要蓋怎麼樣的電廠？請說。"],["郭部長智輝：不管是火力、水力，什麼都要6年，包括所有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個是一個新的論點喔！再蓋一座電廠。"],["郭部長智輝：要6年。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問那個電廠是什麼樣的電廠？你所謂的6年是什麼樣的電廠？"],["郭部長智輝：基本上火力的電廠大概要6年，天然氣的電廠要6年。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：臺中火力發電廠已經貢獻很多，我們不可能再用肺發電。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們不會再增加燃煤的電廠。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你用什麼電？"],["郭部長智輝：天然氣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：天然氣的電，你要增加天然氣的電廠，王總經理頻頻點頭，是不是如此？"],["郭部長智輝：我們要增加的是綠電，我們現在要大量增加的是綠電，風、光。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：您說的綠電，您之前也說核電是一個乾淨的能源，這句話還存在嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：存在。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會延役嗎？核電會不會延役？"],["郭部長智輝：現在RE100是不承認核電是綠電的，它只是一個乾淨的電。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：乾淨的能源嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：就是沒有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，我們恢復原來的討論，就是說，那你會針對於所需要的電，如果AI加進來，確定是我們會有所挑戰，在挑戰之餘，您的方式除了您剛才說的增加一座電廠，這是最新的說法。第二個，也就是本席要請教來源從哪裡來？會不會將核電重新討論？會不會？"],["郭部長智輝：我現在優先考慮的，我得到的支持……我們現在要補這個AI，如果超過我們預期的，我會先從光開始做，從太陽能。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：先從光開始做？"],["郭部長智輝：對，這個還沒有發布啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，請你繼續說明。"],["郭部長智輝：回答委員您的這個問題，我優先考慮先從光，因為太陽光發電是最快的方式。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：太陽光發電是最快？但是有人說如果沒陽光就沒電，那怎麼辦？會穩定供電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們還有儲電，還有其他水力抽蓄的來輔助它。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的好朋友他說了喔，童子賢先生說的這句話非常非常地重要，他有說了電力即國力，你贊不贊成？"],["郭部長智輝：贊成。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還有彭双浪理事長也說了，算力的領域在臺灣，我們能力很強喔，所以我們有很好的發展，但是要確保電力系統的穩定性跟它的充裕力，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你來自產業，所以你更能夠感同身受他們兩位的說法，所以在這種情況之下，本席再一次請教，我們到目前為止也碰到我們非常全力推動的AI，那這樣的情況之下，跟你原先所規劃我們不缺電是有所不足的，對於不足，剛剛部長你也提出第一個，你希望要蓋個電廠來充足，6年後，那會不會緩不濟急？"],["郭部長智輝：當然緩不濟急。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然緩不濟急，所以你提出來的是救不了你目前的缺電啊！"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我剛才是跟委員報告說如果再蓋新的電廠要6年，一定來不及。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定來不及，這要釐清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我的意思就是我要做太陽能發電比較快，能夠補可能不足的部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你用太陽能要來補AI不足，這個會足嗎？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：可以啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可以？"],["郭部長智輝：我們有長期規劃，有其他的電廠會在2027年、2028年來接啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為AI的成長速度目前是不是可以準確來預估，似乎我們沒有辦法去定案，因為AI是以爆炸式的方式在跳升，認同這個觀念嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：認同。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我們的壓力會更大，所以本席再一次請教，要穩定供電，原先我們所規劃的2025年是已經跳票，我們環境部的彭部長也說了2050年淨零目標也沒有辦法達成，今天媒體很大篇，沒有辦法達成，那你要怎麼樣去解決我們的問題？部長，第一個，請問2025年再生能源配比的目標，你的燃氣50%、燃煤27%、綠能20%，其他2%、核能1%，現在政府已經告訴我你的能源配比是如此，但是告訴我答案是跳票的，那請教部長，你的能源配比，你要怎麼樣再去討論重新的能源配比？請教部長。"],["郭部長智輝：我們目前會根據新的需求重新再來調整。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你大概多久時間會告訴社會大眾？因為業者也很緊張。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前舊政府給我們的答案是跳票的，你新任的部長，你的能源配比多久時間可以告訴社會大眾你怎麼去分配？"],["郭部長智輝：我們因為有……過去在沒有AI的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，你告訴我時間好嗎？你們去盤點，大概多久時間可以告訴我？我沒有請你講，王總，部長，因為這個是重大的政策，請教部長，你們大概盤點多久的時間可以告訴社會大眾？第一個，你到底能不能應對這個AI？ 因為電力即國力；第二個，你的能源配比什麼時候可以告訴社會大眾？你告訴我時間就好。"],["郭部長智輝：我要準確地跟委員報告，我想在這個會期結束之前，我一定會想辦法跟你報告具體的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這個會期結束，我們現在預估是在7月15號，所以換句話說就是下個月中，經濟部長，您可以告訴我們國內的電力到底夠不夠，不夠的時候，你們的能源配比要怎麼樣去做分配，在7月中旬的時候告訴社會大眾，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席非常感謝，我們可以聽到政策性的時間點，也希望能夠得到答案，因為不管誰都很緊張、很緊張。","接下來最後一個議題，也就是台電的虧損怎麼辦？你會繼續撥補嗎？台電現在虧損3,800億，除了政府我們今年拍板定案再補公務預算的1,000億，去年的1,500億、前年的500億，現在是增資3,000億，部長，上次本席也跟你討論到這個問題，那未來我們要怎麼辦？尤其立法院已經通過，在院會通過，9月的電價是緩漲的、是凍漲的，你支持嗎？請教部長，你支持吧？9月電價，因為4月1號已經漲了，9月不能再漲了，再漲人民很痛苦啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我想電價的部分，電價委員會會來做決定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：立法院已經做出決議，我請你來看到這個問題，好不好？這個非常重要，因此本席要請教，未來台電如果你不改變它，台電的員工太辛苦了，本席也告訴你說你必須要將台電怎麼樣處理，請你專案來處理，你也答應本席，所以如果它繼續虧損，你還是會繼續的用公務預算來撥補之嗎？向行政院來求支援嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我個人是不支持這樣的補助方式。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不支持補助方式？但是舊政府告訴我們「有政府，台電不會倒」。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有這回事。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有這回事？"],["郭部長智輝：對我來講，經營一個企業就是要不能夠虧損……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是推翻舊政府的論調喔。但是我們還是回到討論的議題，台電的財務怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：台電的財務必須要靠自己的努力去讓它賺錢。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那目前怎麼努力？目前怎麼努力，請部長告訴我們。"],["郭部長智輝：國家要補助給弱勢的團體或者居民的話，那個是國家的補助，這是屬於國家的社會福利的一部分，不屬於我台電的電費來降……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，您這樣子的說法，讓我們是很讚佩又很驚訝喔……"],["主席：楊委員，你的時間到了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：很讚佩又很驚訝喔，那這怎麼辦呢？所以我還是給功課好嗎？台電的員工很辛苦，我們臺灣不能沒有台電，而且從公司要一分為三，研究了幾年，又說不分了，還是以台電為基準，市場可以自由競價，你是以這個論點告訴我們的，所以我還是給一個功課，針對台電的財務，請部長解決台電的虧損，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。可以。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可以喔。那你多久時間可以告訴我們方案？"],["郭部長智輝：我要瞭解全盤以後才能夠跟您報告，所以我儘量在會期結束前……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，也是在7月中旬以前告訴我們，台電的財務要怎麼處理。那我要拜託你，同時中油也一樣，中油已經求助於你，希望取消平穩措施跟亞鄰最低價兩大政策，你們行政院經濟部拍板的是亞鄰最低價要拿掉……"],["郭部長智輝：這部分跟委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是你們說要以亞鄰怎麼樣？均價喔！亞鄰最低價跟亞鄰均價，這個有玄機，有貓膩喔，有貓膩了喔。"],["郭部長智輝：因為亞鄰裡面包括日本，日本現在因為日幣太弱，而且日本的政府也補貼……"],["主席：報告委員，您的時間已經超過……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，因為時間的關係，我還是要你答應我，因為前任的王部長答應我，我們的瓦斯一定不能漲，所以我拜託你體恤最基層的民生，我們的瓦斯不要漲好不好？瓦斯不要漲，好不好？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：瓦斯不會漲。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：瓦斯不會漲，謝謝你喔，我給你加油，7月中旬我們希望得到您瞭解後的政策方案。謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：是。謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。部長，您可能要多花點時間，又不能漲價，然後又不能撥補，然後又不能倒閉，這個考驗您的企業經營的能力，我也想不通這要怎麼經營下去，又不能撥補，又不能漲價，又不能倒閉，這也是厲害。","好，接下來請鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員發言。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是你們執政黨講的。"],["主席：沒有，沒有，我們執政黨沒有這樣講喔。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有，我說有就有……對不對？所以你取消……"],["主席：沒有、沒有、沒有，不要亂講，不要亂塞。不能倒閉的話，你還是要讓它適度調漲電費，不然你是劫富濟貧。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-15","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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楊瓊瓔發言"},{"start":28.319,"end":28.479,"text":"2030年前不缺電嗎?"},{"start":35.366,"end":57.733,"text":"本席記得您來拜訪的時候您告訴我一句話我滿心的期待您說你上任之後要盤點臺灣所需的電力所以目前情況究竟是如何請做說明跟委員報告我去拜訪您的時候我曾經確實這麼說我會馬上盤點目前的供電跟需求的狀況"},{"start":58.353,"end":58.893,"text":"昨天前天的AI的"},{"start":76.243,"end":103.765,"text":"對這個需求出來以後變化很大變化很大所以我們要重新再估計好你預計什麼時候重新再估計因為AI的速度並不是1加1加1這個速度很快所以在這樣的情況之下您預估你重新盤點臺灣的電你什麼時候可以給社會大眾來說明清楚我跟這個委員報告如果說這個AI的這個數據中心投資"},{"start":105.046,"end":129.096,"text":"我想如您所說他可能一次就好幾家出來了那以我們目前的估計如果在今年他就是明年要設置完因為他不會是一開始就要這個店但是明年底之前要設店我大概支持5家到6家的數據中心但是如果超過比如說一次來10家那麼我們可能就是"},{"start":130.436,"end":151.207,"text":"在考慮我用什麼最快的方法可以增加他們需要的電來支應他們需要的電所以換句話說政府是全力協助對那全力協助之餘我們的來源怎麼來我們的來源現在目前是這樣就是說可以的就是我所了解的蓋一座電廠大概要6年"},{"start":152.699,"end":158.264,"text":"你所謂的6年是什麼樣的電廠?基本上火力的電廠大概要6年天然氣的電廠要6年"},{"start":176.742,"end":198.015,"text":"臺中火力發電廠已經貢獻很多我們不可能再用廢發電報告委員我們不會再增加燃煤的這個電廠好你用什麼電天然氣天然氣的電你要增加天然氣的電廠王總經理憑你點頭是不是如此我們要增加的是綠電"},{"start":199.249,"end":203.975,"text":"您說的綠電 您之前也說 核電是一個乾淨的能源 這句話還存在嗎 存在 會延逸嗎 核電會不會延逸 阿伊100是不承認核電是綠電的"},{"start":217.611,"end":217.791,"text":"主席"},{"start":238.626,"end":240.467,"text":"臺中的不管臺中是他本來就要更新的"},{"start":263.3,"end":288.455,"text":"我們現在要補這個AI如果超過我們預期的我會先從光開始做從太陽能先從光開始做對 這個還沒有發布啦但是我們優先考慮回答委員您的這個問題我優先考慮的先從光因為太陽光發電是最快的方式"},{"start":290.026,"end":290.386,"text":"議長好朋友他說了喔"},{"start":307.711,"end":330.941,"text":"同時原先生說電力這句話非常非常的重要他有說了電力及國力你贊不贊成贊成還有彭松龍理事長也說了算力的領域在臺灣是我們是能力很強所以所以我們有很好的發展但是要確保電力系統"},{"start":332.242,"end":332.382,"text":"主席"},{"start":351.974,"end":377.692,"text":"那這樣的一個情況之下跟你原先所規劃我們不缺電是有所不足的那不足剛剛部長你也提出第一個你希望要蓋一個電廠來充足6年後那會不會緩不濟急當然緩不濟急當然緩不濟急所以你提出來的是救不了你目前的缺電呢不是我剛才是跟委員報告說如果再蓋新的電廠要6年一定來不及"},{"start":379.293,"end":406.924,"text":"所以我的意思就是說我要做太陽能發電比較快能夠補這個可能不足的部分你用太陽能要來補AI不足這個會足嗎?會足嗎?部長?可以啦可以?我們有長期規劃有其他的電廠會在這個2027年2028年來接啦因為AI的成長速度目前是不是可以"},{"start":408.14,"end":428.568,"text":"準確的來預估似乎我們沒有辦法去定案因為AI是以爆炸式的方式在跳升認同這個觀念嗎?認同所以我們的壓力會更大所以本席再一次請教要穩定供電原先我們所規劃的"},{"start":430.049,"end":455.822,"text":"我們所規劃的2025年是已經跳票那我們的環境部的彭部長也說了2050年競靈目標也沒有辦法達成今天媒體很大片沒有辦法達成那你要怎麼樣去解決部長我們的問題第一個請問請問2025年再生能源配比的目標你的燃氣50%"},{"start":459.694,"end":479.943,"text":"藍媒27%綠能20%其他2%核能1%你現在政府已經告訴我的你的能源配比是如此但是告訴我答案是跳票的那請教部長你的能源配比你要怎麼樣再去討論重新的能源配比請教部長"},{"start":480.603,"end":499.401,"text":"我目前會根據新的需求重新再來調整你大概多久時間會告訴社會大眾因為業者也很緊張你給我們的目前舊政府給我們的答案是跳票的那你新任的部長你的能源配比多久時間可以告訴社會大眾你怎麼去分配"},{"start":500.441,"end":524.026,"text":"我們因為有這個過去呢在沒有這個AI的這個是你告訴我時間好嗎你們去盤點大概多久時間可以告訴我們也請你講王總部長因為這個是重大的政策請教部長你們大概盤點多久的時間可以告訴社會大眾第一個你到底能不能應對這個AI因為電力及國力"},{"start":525.026,"end":525.646,"text":"國內的電力到底夠不夠那不夠"},{"start":554.858,"end":555.058,"text":"臺電在你身邊虧損怎麼辦"},{"start":580.746,"end":605.248,"text":"你會繼續撥補嗎?臺電現在虧損3800億除了政府我們今年拍板定案再補工預算的1000億去年的1500億前年的500億現在是增資3000億那未來部長下次本席也跟你討論到這個問題那我們要怎麼辦?尤其立法院已經通過在院會通過9月的電價"},{"start":607.209,"end":627.621,"text":"是緩漲的是動漲的你支持嗎請教部長你支持嗎9月電價因為4月1號已經漲了9月不能再漲了再漲了人民很痛苦啊我想這個電價的部分這個建價工會他會來做決定電價委員會立法院已經做出決議我請你來看到這個問題好不好這個非常重要所以因此本席要請教"},{"start":637.805,"end":656.541,"text":"未來臺電如果你不改變他臺電的員工太辛苦了本期也告訴你說你必須要將臺電要怎麼樣處理請你專案來處理你也答應本期所以如果他繼續的虧損你還是會繼續的用公費算來撥補資嗎向行政院來求資源嗎"},{"start":662.231,"end":663.131,"text":"臺電的財務必須要靠自己的努力去讓他賺錢"},{"start":691.391,"end":692.352,"text":"市長,您這樣子的說法讓我們很讚佩又很驚訝"},{"start":719.331,"end":728.28,"text":"臺電的員工很辛苦我們臺灣不能沒有台電而且你從公司要一分為三研究了幾年又說不分了還是以台電為基準"},{"start":730.105,"end":745.871,"text":"市場可以自由競價你是以這個論點告訴我們喔所以我還是給一個功課針對臺電的財務請部長解決我們臺電的虧損好的好嗎可以可以喔那你多久時間可以告訴我們方案"},{"start":748.888,"end":777.668,"text":"我要了解全盤以後才能夠跟你報告所以我我盡量在會期結束前也是在7月中旬以前告訴我們臺電的財務要怎麼處理那我要拜託你同時跟油一樣喔中油也一樣喔中油已經求助於你喔平穩措施喔他甚至要將啞鈴最低價要拿掉喔你們行政院經濟部拍板的是啞鈴最低價"},{"start":778.749,"end":786.9,"text":"這件要拿掉,但是你們說要以啞鈴,要怎麼樣?軍價喔!哇!那啞鈴最低價跟啞鈴軍價,這個有玄機有貓咪喔!有貓咪囉!"},{"start":796.897,"end":801.442,"text":"市長,因為時間的關係,我還是要你答應我,因為前任的王部長答應我,我們的瓦斯一定不能漲,所以我拜託你。"},{"start":812.893,"end":813.293,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}