{"error":false,"id":["153564"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153564,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153564","日期":"2024-06-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-20","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":20,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-05T10:03:48+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-05T10:15:56+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:08","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98963804d17c24c05e84a12a82c262ca1068f95e3d087843c2ab4f16a3dcf70bd65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:03:48 - 10:15:56","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":263,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時4分）主席好，我們請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。這次你親自帶領WHA行動小組前往日內瓦，進行了43場的雙邊會議和推廣活動，向與會者展示我們臺灣的醫療實力，請問部長，你認為我們這一趟最大的收穫是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：第一個收穫就是我們再度集結所有政府和民團、僑團的力量，剛剛陳委員也有提到，我們在三角椅遊行的時候Walk the Talk，我們其實是很團結的，以前都是零零散散，這次把……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我相信你們很認真，也很辛苦……"],["邱部長泰源：然後臺上的主持人也說臺灣加油……"],["邱委員鎮軍：既然這樣，請問，我們有沒有機會重新以觀察員身分進入WHA？"],["邱部長泰源：這永遠是我們一直要努力的目標，但是因為中國的壓力其實很大……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，我現在要講的是，事實上我們問AI都知道，臺灣無法參加WHA的原因有三個，第一個當然是中國大陸的政治封鎖；第二個是國際的支持度不足；第三個是國際法和規則的限制，要成為WHO與WHA的代表，先決條件必須是聯合國的會員，對吧？請外交部陳次長說明。"],["邱部長泰源：可能次長可以從外交的立場來說明。"],["陳次長立國：委員你好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：剛剛我講的這個問題，就是對於我們現在面臨的問題，次長你的看法如何？"],["陳次長立國：我們目前政策的目標，是希望用專業、務實、有貢獻的方法，當然要以完全會員身分入會是有困難，所以我們現在的訴求是要能夠以觀察員身分加入。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，那你認為現在我們要怎麼樣來突破這個困境？"],["陳次長立國：凝聚所有能夠支持跟協助的力量，我們本身也要持續提升……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這些已經做了很多年，我認為都是喊口號，我這樣建議啦，因為時間也不是很多，我想我們應該積極爭取美、日及歐盟的全力相挺，這是我們一直努力的部分，但是我也希望在謀求國際空間的同時，也應該思考過去馬政府時代透過中華民國憲法以及兩岸人民關係條例所建構的兩岸和平與合作架構的必要性，畢竟維持臺海穩定，才能保障我們臺灣的安全。當然這個部分是比較敏感，你們可能也沒有辦法做決定，但我們是希望臺灣好，希望大家一起來努力，好不好？"],["陳次長立國：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：請次長回座。","部長，我們臺灣對世界公共衛生領域的貢獻和潛力不容忽視，這是毋庸置疑的，但在你率團到日內瓦交流的這段期間，臺灣的醫療好像也出了點狀況，你的次長林靜儀在臉書發布生理食鹽水、點滴要用專案進口的事情，事前你知道嗎？知道嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：欸，請委員再講一次。"],["邱委員鎮軍：就是他在臉書發布生理食鹽水、點滴要用專案進口的事情，你知道嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：如果有不足的地方，就一定要專案進口。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，我是問你，你知道這件事情嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我知道要專案進口。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我想再問一件事情，為什麼要看次長的臉書才知道？為什麼不是在衛福部網站公布？"],["邱部長泰源：當時其實是有狀況的，就是說……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我認為次長的臉書是另外一個層面，但應該以衛福部的網站為主吧，對不對？不管怎麼樣，對於生理食鹽水不足的問題，既然你們已經決定專案進口，而且你也已經知道了，怎麼會是在臉書反映這種事情呢？"],["邱部長泰源：請吳署長回答。"],["吳署長秀梅：報告委員，我們這次評估之後，認為需要專案輸入，所以食藥署這邊就公開徵求專案輸入……"],["邱委員鎮軍：不對，我現在問的問題跟你講的這個沒有關係，為什麼會在臉書先公布，而不是在你們衛福部的網站？"],["吳署長秀梅：喔！沒有，在我們食藥署的藥品供應平臺上，其實都有這方面的資訊，我們就會公開徵求……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道，生理食鹽水現在缺少是非常嚴重的一件事情，因為永豐在5月10日被勒令停業，請問你們什麼時候發現點滴可能會不夠？"],["吳署長秀梅：我們那個時候就開始盤點。對，因為永豐本身的品質是不夠的，改善也沒有到位，所以我們……"],["邱委員鎮軍：可是一開始面對醫界質疑的時候，你們都說沒缺，供應充足啊！是什麼時候才發現的？"],["吳署長秀梅：我們一定要做適當的分配，因為每一家醫院、醫療院所他們所進的生理食鹽水可能量都不同，所以我們要適當去調配，讓大家都有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，那我現在問你，生理食鹽水進口的專案裡面有4家廠商……"],["吳署長秀梅：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們對進口商的審查標準是什麼？"],["吳署長秀梅：進口商的標準當然是他本身要具備藥商資格，然後要能夠拿到……就是對方是什麼樣的藥廠要出貨，他是不是屬於PIC/S GMP藥廠……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們的專案合約是直接把數量簽起來，還是按照需求再進口？"],["吳署長秀梅：我們還是會有給他量。"],["邱委員鎮軍：還是會給他量，就是一定固定的量？"],["吳署長秀梅：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那廠商的報價單、合約的點滴是多少錢？運費是多少？"],["吳署長秀梅：他們來跟我們申請，最主要是數量，還有是來自哪一家藥廠，然後……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以價錢不一定，是不是？"],["吳署長秀梅：有關價錢的部分，要跟健保署這邊談。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們是用健保價還是用專案價？"],["吳署長秀梅：這次因為整個成本都不同了，所以不是用健保價，是另外再談。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以都是用專案價。我再請問，我們國內也有配合生產，對不對？"],["吳署長秀梅：有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：也有幾家在生產。"],["吳署長秀梅：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那在國內的時候，這些配合生產的廠商，是用健保價還是用專案價？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，在這段不足的期間，也是有專案價。"],["邱委員鎮軍：多久？這個期間是多久？"],["石署長崇良：目前暫估到10月，從6月開始。"],["邱委員鎮軍：以這樣的專案一直下去也不是辦法，我們臺灣現在有什麼……"],["石署長崇良：我們另一方面也會重新盤這些基本用藥的藥價，預計新的藥價會在10月1號銜接，銜接這個專案到期。"],["邱委員鎮軍：臺灣本身沒有鼓勵來做這件事情嗎？"],["石署長崇良：有，我們昨天已經跟國內5家有生產點滴的藥廠重新議價，然後也請他們提出新的成本。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們的合約，像現在是用專案的話，剛剛我問的那個問題，你還沒有回答，是多少錢？"],["石署長崇良：6月到10月這段期間是專案……"],["邱委員鎮軍：是多少錢？"],["石署長崇良：國內的藥價，因為……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我問多少錢？一瓶多少？"],["石署長崇良：本來的健保核價是25，提高到……"],["邱委員鎮軍：專案呢？"],["石署長崇良：因為各家不一樣，這有一些商業秘密。"],["邱委員鎮軍：什麼商業秘密？這個不是要公開嗎？"],["石署長崇良：因為每一家不一樣，每一家不一樣。我們可以私下提供給委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望是這樣，我不反對你們去外面採購，因為現在量不足，本來就要補足，但是我希望你們把這些事情公開透明，好不好？一瓶多少錢？進口的運費多少錢？把它列出來嘛！你可以公布嗎？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，進口的部分，我們在6月1號已經公布了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：多少錢？"],["石署長崇良：欸，各家是不一樣，大概從六十幾都有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以將近三倍對不對？"],["石署長崇良：差不多。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以將近三倍。"],["石署長崇良：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：其他人如果還要做進口，只要條件符合都可以嗎？"],["吳署長秀梅：因為我們目前徵求這些專案進口的藥商，以現在他們所提供的數量是夠的，所以如果我們還需要的時候，我們就會再公開徵求。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我不要講得太那個，但我還是希望你們把所有的事情公開透明好不好？","另外一個本席很重視的問題就是喪屍電子煙的問題，昨天接到食藥署回電，5月9號管制藥品委員會已經做成決議，把依托咪酯列為四級管制藥品，在此要謝謝衛福部的同仁。接下來在6月13號法務部的毒品審議委員會裡面，我希望部長也能要求法務部，以你們專業的角度去跟他們建議，我認為依托咪酯應該至少列到三級以上好不好？這個你們可以做到嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：法務部預計6月13日會召開毒品審議會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，我希望你們用專業的角度提出建議好不好？說真的，這個部分都是影響青少年比較多，這也是我們非常重視的。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外還有一個問題就是我們近五年的大麻查獲數量，從108年的202公斤，增加到110年的1,560公斤及112年的1,169公斤，急速成長了五倍。根據聯合報的報導，統計十年成長十八倍，但是查獲人數卻沒有明顯的變化。我想請教部長，這是不是代表存在黑數？也就是沒有查獲，有非常大的落差。"],["邱部長泰源：以這樣的落差，當然就是一個很重要的數目，我們一定要去瞭解它的流向。"],["邱委員鎮軍：校園的黑數才是最可怕的，根據教育部統計，大麻已成為大專院校學生吸食毒品的第二名，僅次於K他命，而學校往往不在檢警主動偵查的範圍，因為學校自己如果要主動通報，它本身有非常多的考量，所以我希望衛福部能夠主動協調教育部、警政署以及法務部，加強春暉專案的校園通報義務與課責，掃蕩校園藥物濫用及吸食毒品的黑數，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，因為這個很重要，我們會立即來辦理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：麻煩部長，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝邱委員。"],["主席（劉委員建國代）：謝謝邱委員、謝謝邱部長。有請黃召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳昭姿","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","王正旭","陳培瑜","盧縣一","廖偉翔","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","劉建國","洪申翰","楊曜","陳瑩","張智倫","陳冠廷"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.978468750000001,"end":14.644718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.813468750000002,"end":15.758468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.60159375,"end":27.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.922218750000003,"end":21.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.942218750000002,"end":32.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.61659375,"end":36.548468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.12221875,"end":38.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.02909375,"end":40.041593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.09221875,"end":43.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.37846875,"end":46.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.24721875,"end":51.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.80346875,"end":58.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.924718750000004,"end":62.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.227843750000005,"end":68.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.68284375,"end":71.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.04971875000001,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.81721875000001,"end":75.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.49159375,"end":78.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.98909375000001,"end":81.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.41471875,"end":82.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.97159375000001,"end":85.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.95846875000001,"end":90.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.32909375,"end":90.39659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.88596875,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.03784375000001,"end":92.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.07971875000001,"end":97.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.00721875,"end":108.53721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.90846875000001,"end":120.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.13409375,"end":123.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.97784375,"end":127.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.39909375000002,"end":129.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.51221875000002,"end":134.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.54159375,"end":134.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.11534375000002,"end":136.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.22471875000002,"end":139.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.57034375,"end":140.9034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那我想再問一個一件事情為什麼要在我們次長的臉書看才知道為什麼不是在衛福部網站來公布呢"},{"start":286.443,"end":308.328,"text":"當時其實是有狀況的就是說不是我認為是這樣齁你次長的臉書是另外一個層面但是衛福部的網站才是為主吧對不對既然你們已經決定要從不管怎麼樣就是生理實驗水不足的問題那你已經知道了嘛怎麼會在臉書來反映這種事情沒關係請吳司長你回答一下"},{"start":311.663,"end":336.523,"text":"報告委員像我們如果知道說像我們這一次評估之後是需要有專案輸入的所以在食藥署這邊就公開的徵求專案輸入不對我現在問的問題跟跟您講的這個沒有沒有關係啊為什麼會是在臉書先公佈而不是在你們在我們自己的我們食藥署缺藥的就是一個那個藥品供應平臺上面"},{"start":337.404,"end":349.316,"text":"其實都有這方面的資訊我知道生理實驗水現在缺少是非常嚴重的一件事情那麼永豐在5月10日熱定停業你們什麼時候發現點滴可能會不夠"},{"start":352.765,"end":372.439,"text":"我們那個時候就開始做盤點對,因為隆峰他本身的品質是不夠的改善也沒有到位可是一開始你們面對一切的質疑的時候你們都說沒缺啊供應充足啊是什麼時候才發現我們是一定是要做適當的分配因為每一家醫院醫療院所他們所自己所進貨的這一些"},{"start":374.48,"end":388.079,"text":"身體實驗水可能量度不同所以我們就要適當的去調配讓大家都有好那我現在要問你身體實驗水進口的專案裡面有4家廠商嘛是那麼你們對進口商的審查標準是什麼"},{"start":388.812,"end":416.489,"text":"進口商的標準當然他本身要具備藥商的資格然後他要能夠拿到就是對方他是什麼樣的藥廠要出貨所以他是不是屬於我們PSGMP的藥廠你們的專的合約是直接把數量簽死還是說按照需求再進口我們還是會有給他量還是會有給他量先把量一定的固定的量那廠商的報價單裡面合約裡面的點滴是多少錢運費是多少"},{"start":417.523,"end":447.203,"text":"他們來跟我們申請對他們來跟我們申請最主要是數量還有是來自於哪一家藥廠然後有關價錢的部分要跟健保署這邊談是你們是用健保價還是用專案價以這一次因為整個的成本都不同了所以不是用健保價所以都是用專案價那我再請問一下我們國內也有配合生產嘛對不對有也有幾家在生產是那我們在國內的時候這些生產配合的廠商我們是用健保價還是用專案價現在也是專案價"},{"start":448.144,"end":468.84,"text":"各位委員報告也是另外在這一段期間不足的時候有專案假那多久?這個期間是多久?目前是暫估到10月從6月開始那我們以臺灣我們這樣子用專案一直下來也不是辦法也不是辦法那我們臺灣有什麼我們現在這邊有什麼我們另一方面也會重新的盤這個基本用藥的藥價那預計的話會新的藥價會在10月以後銜接"},{"start":476.866,"end":497.551,"text":"先接這個專案到期那臺灣本身的我們沒有鼓勵來做這件事情嗎?有,因為這個我們昨天已經跟國內的5家有生產這個點滴的藥廠有重新溢價然後也請他們提出新的成本所以你的合約相應專案的話剛剛我講那個問題你還沒回答嗎?對"},{"start":500.772,"end":525.533,"text":"專案的話是從6月到10月這一個期間是專案是多少錢?我說是多少錢?一瓶多少?我們本來的健保盒價是25那提高到因為各家是不一樣這有些商業秘密不過每一家不一樣每一家不一樣我們可以私下提供給我希望是這樣子就是說"},{"start":526.554,"end":550.991,"text":"我不反對你們去外面採購因為現在不足本來就要補但是我希望你們把這些事情公開透明好不好一瓶多少錢你進口過進口的運費多少錢把它列出來嘛你可以公佈嗎跟委員報告那個進口的部分我們已經在6月1號已經公佈了多少錢各家是不一樣大概從60幾都有所以將近三倍啦"},{"start":552.372,"end":578.902,"text":"差不多所以將近三倍對那其他人如果還要做這個進口只要條件符合都可以嗎因為我們目前徵求這些專案進口的藥商以現在他們所提供的數量是夠的所以如果我們還需要的時候我們就會再公開徵求好這樣子啦我不要講得太那個但是我還是希望你們把這個所有的事情公開透明好不好"},{"start":580.462,"end":598.629,"text":"另外一個本席很重視的一個問題就是上市電子菸的問題昨天接到食藥署回電5月9日管制藥委員會已經做成決議把依託米子列為市級管制藥品當然謝謝我們之前衛福部的同仁"},{"start":599.429,"end":615.303,"text":"接下來在6月13號法務部的毒品審查審議委員會裡面我也希望部長也要求法務部以你們的專業的角度去跟他們建議我認為啦一堆名詞應該至少列到三級以上好不好這個你們可以做到嗎"},{"start":616.404,"end":638.06,"text":"6月13會開會國務部預計6月13會開獨品審議會對我是不是你們用專業的角度建議好不好因為這個部分說真的啦這個都是影響我們青少年比較多這也是我們非常重視的另外還有一個問題就是說我們近5年的大麻茶貨數量從108年的202公斤增加到110年的1560公斤"},{"start":644.605,"end":671.783,"text":"一百一十二年的一千一百六十九公斤這個極速成長了五倍那根據聯合報的報導統計十年成長十八倍但是查獲的人數卻沒有明顯的變化那部長認為我想請教部長這個是不是代表我們存在黑數就是沒有查獲有非常大的落差嗯"},{"start":673.624,"end":687.823,"text":"如果以這樣的落差當然就是一個很重要的數目我們一定要去了解他的那我這樣講啦校園的黑數才是最可怕的根據教育部統計的"},{"start":690.158,"end":713.168,"text":"大麻已成為大專院校學生稀釋毒品的第二名僅次於其他名而學校往往不在檢警主動偵查的範圍因為學校自己要主動通報它自己有本身非常多的考量所以我希望衛福部應該主動協調教育部警政署以及法務部加強春暉專案的校園通報義務與課則"},{"start":715.049,"end":717.833,"text":"少當校園藥物濫用及稀釋毒品的黑數"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}