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各界發表意見"},{"start":2667.239,"end":2683.809,"text":"不要說讓他們沒有辦法啟動來這個計畫所以凍結一部分然後等到他開完公聽會然後到委員會報告後就開始凍資這樣我的建議是這樣"},{"start":2688.58,"end":2710.806,"text":"我們講程序問題今天曹偉強發通知是要有關房屋稅這個是很重要明天一定要通過大家來看有關曹偉強留下這個議題外務部也在那邊說明很清楚我知道有些在陳情那些我認識你現在講他們都要看直播都講起來沒聽到"},{"start":2714.087,"end":2738.886,"text":"這問題是非常兩難啦一百零八年通過以後那個河哨潛移保障法也就是說那時候是立法院通過就是說這種河哨潛移保障法裡面有關於幼兒園等等嬰兒園等等有孽兒事件的時候那時候常常發生孽兒事件所以有通過必須錄影"},{"start":2739.927,"end":2763.566,"text":"學校沒錄影,沒有錄影還要罰錢,這個是通俄,通俄的辦法都跟得很清楚那現在是這樣啦齁,大家都有啦齁發生事情的時候,大家就說錄影再也找不到,找不清楚等等那很多糾紛啦這是一體兩面的啦,全國家長來看這個事情"},{"start":2764.571,"end":2780.043,"text":"那業者當然也有,有些是反對的,可是法院已經規定了那現行的辦法是這樣,後來先知政府就像台中、台北、新北市都有先知政府自己弄一個營"},{"start":2781.209,"end":2805.611,"text":"你們全部來這裡是這樣 有一百八十幾個學校都是這樣的六都差不多這種做法有時候中央有糾紛我管理中央就用上邏輯我這裡問題來看嘛沒有問題不可以討論先是使用 先是看嘛那現在真實要改革是一個全國的語言這現在只是全國把"},{"start":2808.137,"end":2817.383,"text":"各個學校政府都要把他修成全國,這樣的話,一個議員上一段的時候,事實上會做得更好。你剛剛說會發生資安的問題,現在各個學校也會發生資安的問題。"},{"start":2822.754,"end":2838.459,"text":"縣市政委也發言上來,活下來做讓治安會做更完全,而且這個東西只用在一個,不能在監看學校,學校要幹什麼,老師在教書上什麼,只有發生糾紛的時候,你如果不講話嘛,怎麼這樣不這樣怎麼樣,很多糾紛,這常常發生的。"},{"start":2841.744,"end":2863.036,"text":"這事會連郭議員常常爆出這種現象,禮見不詳所以衛生部的意思是說,我總統放在一個雲上面,要政府來追,治安會夠得正好你談的治安是表面他們談的是治安,實際上是反對上全國雲只是這樣這樣,這我們很為難嘛,你知道總統罩他們"},{"start":2867.995,"end":2868.777,"text":"這個題目不是今天才出現的題目"},{"start":2877.694,"end":2901.239,"text":"那我知道這頁紙的長文很坦啊,哇這如種汙染,後來上面誰,平常誰都不能偷看啊,也不能去監督學校怎麼樣啊。像個別,現在個別可以,學校可以偷看老師有沒有認真啊。這個好像更有保障啊。當然這是一個很大的公共文化議題齁。"},{"start":2903.479,"end":2925.316,"text":"我們現在很為難,結果站在他們那邊,我們反正事情誰要負責這個是一個進步的,國家發錢把它整合起來所以我是建議就是說,他們有在溝通啦,他們也是一直在溝通,在發這個來溝通最近也一直要找我,我也不會演啦,坦白講,最近我也認識所以我們今天在談這個議題的時候就是說,那天談的就是說"},{"start":2929.539,"end":2942.668,"text":"原來提的案子是說全部凍結,立法院到現在為止30年來還沒有發生一個單位一張被全部凍結的,所以這個是不可行凍結80%也不可行,50%也不可行"},{"start":2945.009,"end":2961.36,"text":"上禮拜在這裡有講說他講的數字我跟邱成岩有稍微溝通一下他們也知道他也被接受審訊他也知道這個東西很為難所以他大概講話都是不敢講得太清楚我算很清楚講這些話來"},{"start":2963.871,"end":2964.552,"text":"民進黨團提議：立法院黨團提議"},{"start":2993.857,"end":3008.485,"text":"大家先理清這個事情他們有時候一定齁 一定 一定叫外部不講 叫政府不講不是我們的事情啦 要給他們有機會講阿你的預算都通過了 還有什麼好講的所以我要凍結就是要給他們去講 溝通凍結百分比的問題而已啦我們到現在 我只要講什麼"},{"start":3018.751,"end":3019.872,"text":"我講的總是答案啦"},{"start":3036.974,"end":3048.081,"text":"今天這個文章我現在很好好去溝通第一個乃至於開公聽會都無所謂那凍結數大家來談嘛凍結數立法院對於所有議長我們在這麼多年來前面兩位你們三位都是最後黨編的嘛凍結金都10%嘛像這一次總共10%"},{"start":3057.907,"end":3057.967,"text":"主席"},{"start":3078.483,"end":3103.068,"text":"第一就是現有法令的規定我在委員會很清楚現有法令的規定就是規定都要錄影有硬碟儲存一個月是這樣沒有規定要做雲端集中起來這是第一點我要說明的所以教育部他們是反對幼兒園做全國監管雲的"},{"start":3104.568,"end":3118.219,"text":"本來幼兒園也有人提議說這個現在講的是托育中心喔本來幼兒園也有各幼兒園的硬碟然後也有人提議說那我們做全國監管員教育部反對"},{"start":3119.66,"end":3133.558,"text":"所以現在幼兒園是沒有做全國監管員的就是各幼兒園都要儲存一個月硬碟然後如果你不見了要被罰"},{"start":3135.185,"end":3164.654,"text":"有罰則的你不能說我不見了加重罰則嘛你儲存起來就要儲存起來一個月內隨時縣市政府要去檢查你都要提供現在幼兒園是這樣所以他們教育部是態度就是反對建立全國幼兒園的硬碟監視器硬碟的全國監管營教育部反對的他認為風險更大所以這個我要跟大家再說明"},{"start":3165.494,"end":3179.69,"text":"現有法律是規定要做硬碟 要儲存 沒有規定要做全國監管員那我覺得啦 當然這個柯總要講說 有時候去查結果說什麼沒有錄影到好 這個都是違規啊"},{"start":3180.831,"end":3202.763,"text":"本身就是違規你要儲存一個月你就要儲存一個月不管任何理由所以你應該要加重這個方面的法則這是一點另外就是說如果各縣市都已經在做縣市的監管員那就給縣市做嘛你把全國的再把它集中再做一個全國監管員"},{"start":3204.104,"end":3204.164,"text":"主席"},{"start":3225.794,"end":3252.829,"text":"縣市監管局 這也是一個方法一個方向因為縣市政府已經有的在做了然後也不會風險這麼大把全國的全部集中在那邊萬一就是說資安的問題是這樣越分散資安受到駭客攻擊受的傷害越小因為你資料分散嘛為什麼資料要分散去中心化"},{"start":3253.976,"end":3283.445,"text":"因為你被攻擊的結果全部的資料都在裡面那個洩密的這個情形就會變成非常的重大我們常常全國的資訊就是說健保資訊被盜結果 哇 這個範圍非常大如果是限制在縣市限制在每一家的這個育嬰中心他受傷害的情形萬一也被害了受傷害情形比較小所以這個當然各有利弊 我知道那家長裡面也有"},{"start":3283.925,"end":3284.246,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":3301.442,"end":3301.742,"text":"吳懿晶委員"},{"start":3322.931,"end":3323.211,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":3345.103,"end":3345.443,"text":"民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":3373.647,"end":3374.068,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":3395.131,"end":3421.781,"text":"因為家長真的會擔心就像剛剛委員講的你分散的時候駭客他多忙啊他要去攻擊多少地方才可以拿到一點點資料但是你集中的時候真的是非常危險其實不是只有衛福部有這個問題我們中央各部會都現在開始出現很大的這個問題他們開始到處收集許多人民的資料這攸關到你怎麼收集的你有沒有告知人家你怎麼儲存你怎麼應用你怎麼銷毀"},{"start":3423.982,"end":3447.874,"text":"我們這些東西都沒有一個很明確的規定一般民眾會很擔心的謝謝好 柯總召要彼此說服彼此我想這裡面牽涉到不是只有我們兩招啦都告沒有外務部啦 感恩中啦都業者啦那我知道大家都有被業者"},{"start":3451.408,"end":3477.341,"text":"來遊說的壓力啦我吳會員他沒有找我我也很清楚啦齁但是我還是想講一些話啦齁所謂這個不是要監管這是系統儲存系統而已這個沒有用來監管的任何的議會跟工人不是說搞不好要好好要關心政府要監督好這個學校有沒有好好教書等等行為這只是儲存一個系統"},{"start":3478.57,"end":3496.947,"text":"因為案件 發生事件 要出來看現在就是通通 只有30天而已那他出來看 第一個 我沒有照到角度 或是不清楚 乃至於要重置等等這種所有問題 各位都忘記了 報紙上面都寫很大"},{"start":3498.409,"end":3516.1,"text":"我們要站在保護嬰幼兒的角度上面來看待至於教育部因為0到2歲是屬於不會講話是屬於衛福部的3歲到6歲是屬於教育部的所以教育部的意思是說當然你要往他也是說大家協調好教育部是反對"},{"start":3519.742,"end":3528.732,"text":"這個是法規定的,兒少前醫保育法上規定的,所以法是每年都有的,都很清楚,人家辦法都寫得出來,辦法利用等等都可以的。"},{"start":3540.89,"end":3555.884,"text":"這個他已經用非常安全等級在處理這個事情,要害的話現在每個學校讓最簡單,讓很容易進去。你不要用這樣的話來講說,我們什麼都不要做淫端了,加密什麼等等他們會去做。我的看法是這樣,"},{"start":3559.505,"end":3572.497,"text":"我們在這邊彼此爭辯,大家都知道這是一體多面的事情啦,就是要動多少,然後動以前要開工廳,這個我們都OK的,好嗎?我相信這是一個我們在這裡,所以往後退"},{"start":3582.186,"end":3596.483,"text":"誰打死都不可能的啦一天發生事情的時候,你不在州立委,我們還在州立委這每一個黨團都會中招啊不是說家長,家長當然是希望保護兒童嘛"},{"start":3597.355,"end":3598.676,"text":"我寫還是你寫 我們寫"},{"start":3623.067,"end":3623.248,"text":"主席"},{"start":3641.471,"end":3641.631,"text":"9點可以先練"},{"start":3665.635,"end":3669.777,"text":"委員長 國民黨也一樣嘛你總要說明啊委員長 國民黨也一樣嘛你總要說明啊委員長 國民黨也一樣嘛你總要說明啊"},{"start":3691.269,"end":3694.25,"text":"明天9點就開始開會 動員你們假動大概9點半就可以了"},{"start":3717.747,"end":3718.508,"text":"當然不休息了"},{"start":3735.087,"end":3736.108,"text":"民進黨條例部分條文修正草案．．民進黨團提議．．"},{"start":3764.338,"end":3765.139,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3780.336,"end":3780.436,"text":"黃國健議員黃國健議員"},{"start":3811.859,"end":3813.519,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3838.53,"end":3867.603,"text":"有關於房屋稅的部分,大概在委員會審查以後有保留,保留總共五個條文事實上關鍵只有一條而已,就是第五條第五條大概我們的部分和民進黨的部分都差不多當然我要尊重其他各黨,關鍵就是這一條還要保留五之一是因為第五條誰能保留,實在有不同意見通房稅是地方稅的部分,要補貼等等"},{"start":3870.352,"end":3889.986,"text":"第五條、五之一、第六條都是配合保留的有關第九條就是刪除民意代表那個大家應該有共識那個是小問題刪除民意代表當中立下評議委員這個大家有高度共識還有第十一條的部分就是這個平定的時程多久一次關鍵就是第五條而已"},{"start":3891.406,"end":3904.167,"text":"第五條大概我簡單講就是說我們和我們黨的意見是一致的大概這樣最高4.8嘛好看大家有什麼意見好請曾總召"},{"start":3907.364,"end":3928.529,"text":"有關房屋稅條例第五條也就是所謂屯房稅的部分我們兩個立場第一個假設稅率4.8我們兩個基本上支持這是第一個第二個那有關課稅限制的部分要請財政部再講清楚"},{"start":3929.403,"end":3929.523,"text":"主席"},{"start":3950.859,"end":3969.691,"text":"稅率4.8 行政院版本國民黨團基本上支持 這第一點第二點 請莊部長說明課稅限值現在跟市價有沒有相當假設沒有相當 要多久之後才可以讓它相當好 這個兩點說明 謝謝好 請說明一下部長讓齊璐兄先講一下 再請部長說明 來"},{"start":3980.333,"end":3996.485,"text":"民進黨原始提案版本在稅率上是比較重一些但是我們也是希望說今天就是草野協商而且是最後的機會那當然其實我們也可以支持院版這邊就是草4.8因為我們是覺得說"},{"start":3998.346,"end":3998.606,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":4021.377,"end":4021.757,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":4049.713,"end":4072.312,"text":"不往這個方向做絕對是不可以的我們還是堅持主張當然一定是要往這個方向做所以當然我們今天為了成全這個大局當然我想各黨團如果這個共識是配合院版可以的話當然我們一定是要讓它通過那另外單是稅基的這個調整的部分可能財政部真的我覺得這是非常急迫的非常急迫的就是讓整個稅基更能夠接近真正的實價"},{"start":4074.053,"end":4092.038,"text":"這個才是一個最終最終的這個大的方向我想民眾黨黨團一直在也希望其實事實上實價割稅可能是更重要的這個所謂的這個稅制改革的這個部分那這個地方我們也希望然後我們也希望就是說看能怎麼調整雖然當然這個地方也面臨那個地方政府的這個挑戰"},{"start":4093.328,"end":4121.425,"text":"地方政府有時候甚至不是往上調還往下調的都有發生所以這個地方怎麼樣讓這個配套更好還是希望未來財政部在配套上應該做得更好以上 謝謝好 謝謝等一下 中央部長等一下讓邱總召委先講一下他剛才有舉手你再中午回答謝謝院長那這個房屋稅條例第五條的這個版本那這個就是說本來是最高是3.6"},{"start":4123.57,"end":4151.933,"text":"結果現在只增加到只增加到4.8事實上只增加1.2%那你說這樣的實施的結果到最後能夠這個提高我國的這個囤房的持有的成本那這個持有的比例那個稅率然後呢能夠逼出空餘物然後達到這個增加這個供給的目的以便這個便宜房價這是自欺欺人嘛"},{"start":4152.95,"end":4171.256,"text":"這根本才1.2%我現在囤房十幾間然後你又有增加這些稅率說這樣有辦法逼出空漁屋我覺得這個是掩耳盜鈴也是自欺欺人就是說根據112年度全國非自住住家用的稅級個人歸屋統計表"},{"start":4173.257,"end":4195.433,"text":"多數民眾所持有的空屋 如果你持有空屋的話是一到三戶 這個是比較多的但是依照財政部的這個參考基準的話 這個稅率的這個級距最高這個級的話是3.8% 等於是說比現行的3.6最高稅率才增加0.2嘛"},{"start":4197.094,"end":4197.374,"text":"民進黨團提議（民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":4219.776,"end":4246.946,"text":"等於是說你要課到最高的4.8%的話你要持有最高7戶以上然後對於有益囤房的投資客怎麼會有這種嚇阻的作用所以這個是自欺欺人嘛那另外一個更嚴重的就是說關於房屋起造人的這個部分就是說這個所謂的建商囤房的部分這個才是我們現在最重要想要去對付的嘛"},{"start":4247.506,"end":4247.706,"text":"立法院黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":4267.799,"end":4290.529,"text":"那到你可以用使用執照下來才開始起算的話那等於是說你的算法是說也要超過五年之後才能對這個起照人科與最高的4.8%的稅率那變成是說他在預售屋的時候就可以賣個一兩年了那之後還要再賣五年"},{"start":4292.17,"end":4304.04,"text":"等到五年後總共加起來將近七年你才會刻以最高的稅率那這不是在鼓勵說變相讓建商可以安心的囤房七年"},{"start":4305.1,"end":4305.28,"text":"劉仲敬議員"},{"start":4327.548,"end":4346.289,"text":"民進黨團的版本跟國民黨黨團的版本差不多我會覺得這個有點奇怪啦民進黨是農工企家的一個政黨搞到最後你在面對這個棚房租房屋稅條例第五條的時候現在台灣房價已經高不可攀"},{"start":4347.37,"end":4362.56,"text":"那年輕人根本買不起房子這個台灣的出生嬰兒人數是已經歷史的新低了去年才13萬人今年是1到6月6萬多人又要破紀錄了搞到年輕人都已經活不下去的情況之下結果你就輕巧一句哇"},{"start":4363.18,"end":4389.89,"text":"增加的 好不容易 屯房稅條例這個房屋稅條例 千戶萬壞 死出來啦在將近這七八年的時間裡面 理由薄 理由一大堆然後現在總算要推出來了 增加個1.2%那甚至最多的屯房數 空屋數 這個一到三戶 這個這個級距最高是3.8 等於是增加0.2而已建商屯房 可以讓建商安心的屯房七年再來賣"},{"start":4391.93,"end":4418.117,"text":"清巧一句說我們的版本我們民進黨的版本跟國民黨一樣你不會覺得奇怪嗎你不會覺得很奇怪嗎那所以其實實在是那個版本是非常清楚的你就是要讓這個用這個足夠的誘因然後去有效的去嚇阻這些故意囤房的建商嘛非常清楚嘛如果你超過一年之後"},{"start":4418.937,"end":4440.95,"text":"你就是應該科與他最高的稅率然後才能夠有效的去兼顧各方的利益然後去嚇阻故意囤紡的建商能夠讓空餘屋可以逼出來能夠真正的刺激、能夠增加供給我們也可以看到就是說部長"},{"start":4441.87,"end":4466.709,"text":"這個上週財政部才喜洋洋的公布說今年前11個月個人房地合一稅收累積已經三四八億那年增這個百分之六有望超過去年全年的382億那挑戰400億的新高那我必須要講說這到底有什麼好高興的"},{"start":4468.09,"end":4493.866,"text":"這到底有什麼好高興的你房屋房地合一稅的目的是要嚇阻這個短期交易的投機買賣嘛所以你的稅收應該要越少才表示說你這個嚇阻短期交易買賣投機的買賣有效嘛這個不是啊這個你越收越多那不是表示說這個短期的交易投機的買賣越更多嗎"},{"start":4495.848,"end":4506.217,"text":"財政部竟然把它當作政績所以這也顯示說財政部的這個防事政策根本就沒有效根本就沒有效"},{"start":4507.939,"end":4532.767,"text":"結果你非常的高興喜洋洋那你有沒有想到那些在台灣水深火熱完全沒辦法買到房子的年輕世代整個世代被房價壓得喘不過氣來然後只能被迫在房子跟孩子之間二者一的這個狀況那所以投資客完全都沒有感受到"},{"start":4533.677,"end":4533.757,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":4549.913,"end":4575.883,"text":"提高房屋稅率和將稅率明定入法還是不願意最後我必須要講說另外一個更自欺欺人的方式就是全台灣到底有哪一個地方政府有根據所謂的地方稅法通則認為要把稅率自行調高到三成這是非常離譜的根本不會有"},{"start":4577.344,"end":4577.464,"text":"主席"},{"start":4591.874,"end":4592.134,"text":"陳教法委員"},{"start":4617.212,"end":4637.856,"text":"在這裡還是要表達我們現在行政院版的這個稅率還是太低所以實力黨團我們提出來的版本差別極具必須要入法那我們在這裡還是要呼籲在野黨我們不要用這樣草率的這個4.8%就要來為"},{"start":4641.817,"end":4642.697,"text":"副總召你還有話要說嗎接下來再鄭總召"},{"start":4665.454,"end":4690.407,"text":"所謂預收屋,我想大家都知道嘛在平均經驗條例修正以後,預收屋就不能轉業了嘛,因為封死了嘛那我們現在有兩稅合一,移民並到所得稅上面去處理所以是不同系統的在看待這個事情那我今天我知道最後一點是剛才講好了好像師傅就是說等著我們講什麼話就要攻擊我是講很簡單的一句話就是說"},{"start":4691.588,"end":4710.099,"text":"行政版本和國民黨版本兩個差不多那我想這個不是要我盡力在這個伺機就是說你們都假的怎麼樣因為你的概念和別人的概念是不太一樣你用屠龍稅要10%的嘛那可以這樣做嗎這值得討論"},{"start":4711.48,"end":4729.897,"text":"所以我們今天要很冷靜來談一下就是說至於健康部分當然健康部分它是買來就要賣掉了當然賣不掉它必須忍受稅率的增加這個把房子逼出來這個部分有一個當然有稅率一定有稅率到4.8"},{"start":4731.198,"end":4751.965,"text":"所以今天在談這個房屋稅條例的時候,我希望彼此不要建議在說你都假的,我都在講的待會請財務部針對時代用法好好說明好不好那請官方回答鄭守昌鄭守昌講完了以後我們就讓莊副財政委員先講"},{"start":4764.289,"end":4782.995,"text":"我想有關房屋稅修正條例相關的討論事實上已經好幾年了因為過去房屋稅的這些稅率的訂定事實上基本上是地方政府的權責在憲法裡面房屋稅也是屬於地方政府的"},{"start":4783.775,"end":4811.709,"text":"的稅收但是因為我們台灣現在房價的問題因此大家對於目前的房屋稅的相關稅率大家認為說有訂定更清楚的差別稅率的必要這也是大家俗稱的囤房稅其實這是所謂差別稅率的極具"},{"start":4813.831,"end":4813.951,"text":"民進黨團提議"},{"start":4830.503,"end":4831.504,"text":"事實上大家也知道﹖"},{"start":4851.719,"end":4877.354,"text":"這個禮拜就是我們這一屆會席的最後的時間那如果這個沒有在今天的協商沒有通過或是在這個我們的院會處理沒有通過的話那這個有關這個房屋稅大家所謂的囤房稅的這個訂定他可能就要延到下一屆要重新來一次因為他屆期不連續又必須重新來一次所以事實上"},{"start":4878.695,"end":4893.993,"text":"各界對於囤房稅的期待都是希望說我們能夠在這一次這一屆的最後的會席能夠通過通過的過程裡面當然大家各黨有各黨的版本各黨大家有各自的看法"},{"start":4894.79,"end":4913.782,"text":"但是如果說我們每一個黨大家都堅持自己的都堅持自己的版本那指責其他的版本是自欺欺人是離譜等等我覺得這樣子的做法第一無助於這個我們法案的大家達成共識第二就是說這個"},{"start":4915.567,"end":4934.748,"text":"事實上對於這個許多的期待能夠這個房屋稅條例能夠在這一屆裡面做修法的許多的這個國民以及這個團體裡面他們都都是認為說至少我們今天這次通過大家有一個取得一個共識踏出第一步"},{"start":4935.469,"end":4935.749,"text":"立法院黨團提議"},{"start":4955.134,"end":4984.472,"text":"沒有一個政黨是自欺欺人也沒有一個政黨是提出離譜的法案我覺得這個是大家要互相尊重那討論出一個共識我認為說能夠在這個會期最後的時間裡面通過一個大家有共識的法案我覺得這個才是對於這個我們目前改善我們目前這個地方政府對於房屋稅的這個差別稅率的制定我覺得才是有幫助的以上"},{"start":4986.307,"end":4986.327,"text":"黃國健議員"},{"start":5006.213,"end":5032.33,"text":"他的目的是幹嘛他的政策目的希望能夠建成房市實現居住正義再講一次希望能夠建成房市實現居住正義讓年輕朋友可以買得到房子這是他的政策目的第二點其實我是極少數委員提出這個修正草案"},{"start":5033.567,"end":5061.201,"text":"在財委會提出已經討論了兩三年從早期財政部不願意認為不可行到現在已經把行政院版本送來所以已經有進步的第二點第三點還是那句話稅率基本方向支持行政院的稅率4.8%但是最重要的"},{"start":5062.264,"end":5062.684,"text":"主席"},{"start":5077.174,"end":5095.987,"text":"財政部因為這整個是屯房稅的最重要的配套所以等一下請部長要說明課稅限值到底現在跟市價差距多少那假如有差距的話多少年之後可以讓他推進市價 謝謝接下來請外匯稅名者莊副郎請說明"},{"start":5104.428,"end":5125.602,"text":"謝謝各位委員的指教我想在房屋稅裡面當然有兩個因素也就是各位所提到的就是說稅率還有一個就是稅基也就是課稅限值那在稅率的部分各位也許看到這個是3.6條到4.8最高的稅率和現在的法條來比較的話雖然是有提高1.2但是它有一個很大的一個差異第一個"},{"start":5126.142,"end":5126.282,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":5148.186,"end":5148.346,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":5166.203,"end":5166.503,"text":"民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":5184.737,"end":5189.778,"text":"新蓋房屋跟房屋結構還有各方面都來說是跟原來是差距很大的然後再加上地段率的調整那地段率就跟這個地方的繁榮程度商業化的一個情形都有關係所以這個部分地方政府其實這幾年已經調高非常多以臺北市來說已經調高到一點"},{"start":5209.782,"end":5210.322,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":5237.717,"end":5237.817,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":5261.051,"end":5261.111,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":5279.344,"end":5279.505,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":5294.383,"end":5312.44,"text":"好 院長剛剛我認為現在是在談稅率部長這樣在講稅基或是剛剛其他的黨團講稅基基本上這是兩件事稅基是稅基的問題稅率的問題現在要回答是說你這樣的稅率有沒有辦法逼出這個空餘屋"},{"start":5314.142,"end":5330.673,"text":"那剛剛柯總都講了這個預售屋的限制的轉售的規定那平均地點條例這跟這件事情是風馬牛不相及啊你現在是要求說建商然後你要讓他拿到使用執照之後才開始起算嘛那你建商在這個這個在拿到使用期間"},{"start":5331.834,"end":5331.934,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":5352.296,"end":5367.068,"text":"那另外又說 你的最高級率才4.8% 4.8%那要算的是說 空餘屋 7戶以上台灣空餘屋7戶以上等於是你自己自住那邊3戶的 都算15億以上才會算到4.8%那你這樣有幾個人 多少人有15億以上"},{"start":5377.137,"end":5400.131,"text":"對阿所以這個是可以就事論事的不是說你現在你推出這樣的一個版本然後這個連最多空戶數的以現在台灣來看的話是1到3戶嘛那你的級距才增加0.2%本來3.6嘛你現在3.8所以這完全是可以理性來討論的不是說你現在提出一個"},{"start":5401.312,"end":5421.543,"text":"法案 院版 院版跟國民黨團也都差不多問題是這個法案到底是不是合理的如果不合理的話 怎麼樣才能夠有共識如果你不合理的話根本沒有辦法達到你的政策的目的的時候"},{"start":5423.7,"end":5448.588,"text":"要逼人家說這樣的情況之下也要接受然後接受一個完全都沒有作用的一個法案然後讓這些現在年輕世代遭受困苦困痛苦繼續的存在是這樣嗎在民進黨完全執政一黨獨大情況之下哪有法案能夠阻擋啊坦白講今天保留之後明天還不是照樣"},{"start":5451.102,"end":5476.682,"text":"這個通過那只是說這樣的狀況是合理的嗎我們要問的是這樣子因為你已經這個法案已經遲到太久了過去的理由就是說啊這個會轉嫁啊什麼有的沒的啊理由一大堆嘛那總算七年之後願意提出這一個房屋這個稅條例的修法了"},{"start":5477.262,"end":5477.462,"text":"主席"},{"start":5498.147,"end":5509.335,"text":"結果你要全國歸戶的情況之下 要算到十戶就是台灣人 要在台灣 整個台灣要十戶以上才會算到你的4.8"},{"start":5511.684,"end":5512.004,"text":"民進黨團提議：立法院黨團長"},{"start":5535.45,"end":5537.191,"text":"立法院黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":5554.869,"end":5565.123,"text":"自欺欺人 因為財政部是稅的專家 你推出這個政策之後能增加多少稅"},{"start":5570.51,"end":5584.59,"text":"結果你告訴你數字呈現出來的時候你告訴大家說這樣可以逼出他的空餘物他增加了幾千塊的稅率的情況之下那這樣的話他就會把他手上的這個屯的這個房子把它賣掉是這樣嗎"},{"start":5586.931,"end":5603.486,"text":"這完全是可以講道理的所以我基本上會認為說你的這個版本確實我覺得如果說要來協商的話基本上有一點誠意的話基本上應該就這些稅率也好這些大家所認為的爭點也好"},{"start":5606.408,"end":5634.299,"text":"應該要有所再去商榷否則的話這個版本通過之後也毫無意義可言好 邱委員我想說這個版本通過毫無意義可言這句話大概大概邱委員講出來恐怕我個人不能接受社會上也不太能夠接受說這個版本通過毫無意義那我覺得這個"},{"start":5635.885,"end":5656.107,"text":"邱委員你是律師我想這個這個我們就就法論法今天我們在協商的就是房屋稅條例第五條的條文內容你剛剛所談的長篇大論裡面大部分其實跟這個法條無關你在談的都是這個集聚跟這個這個這個集聚稅率基準的問題"},{"start":5656.927,"end":5678.803,"text":"這個東西並不是定在法裡面這個是我們這條法通過之後才有你剛剛討論的那些問題到底幾年到底這個房屋差別稅率的級距它的級距數跟各級的稅率基準這個是等我們這個法通過之後這個法的條文就是超過一年未出售的房屋"},{"start":5680.779,"end":5696.578,"text":"防護限職百分之四點八科徵這個是條文通過之後才有你剛剛講的幾年第一類他在幾年一年之內兩年超過一年到兩年到四年這個都是法通過有的不是在法條上面的文字所以如果"},{"start":5697.585,"end":5700.027,"text":"我看沒有共識啦各黨團沒有共識我們就保留啦大家剛才都有充分發言"},{"start":5727.466,"end":5750.748,"text":"不好意思 這邊再補充一個部分因為剛才那個部長有特別講到其實這次的討論 我想其實為什麼剛才我們實力這邊邱總召的想法是覺得說這個政策的目標到底能不能藉著這次修法完成我很坦白說當然我們也很清楚這是為什麼外面的民團也一直在主張"},{"start":5751.709,"end":5763.665,"text":"實際上如果真的要逼出空屋的話甚至應該要有一個所謂的中央的吞房特別稅這也是民團事實上我們有提版本那當然我知道是不可能在這個會期能夠達成這些事情"},{"start":5764.625,"end":5764.805,"text":"民進黨團提議（民進黨團提議"},{"start":5785.068,"end":5811.327,"text":"這個部分財政部到底有沒有辦法就是說雖然我們今天就算明天去表決通過這樣子的一個概念那但是我們怎麼樣讓這個稅基能夠慢慢的跟上這部分能不能部長有比較具體一點的承諾到時候你們怎麼修因為因為坦白說你們也只有胡蘿蔔跟棍子在手上嗎就要求地方政府去做嗎那這個部分是不是有辦法能夠更具體啊就是免得就是說我們只是口頭在承諾一下"},{"start":5811.527,"end":5816.309,"text":"委員長 我補充一下剛才神話委員講說這個法基本上這個沒有涉及到這個稅率嘛因為我不知道這個理解對不對啦但是呢"},{"start":5827.535,"end":5848.351,"text":"其實這很清楚嘛現在現行條文裡面它的規定這個第一項第一款就是住家用房屋公自住或公益出租人或出租人使用者維持房屋限制1.2%嘛那其他的最低不得少於房屋限制1.5%那最高不得3.6%嘛"},{"start":5850.512,"end":5869.373,"text":"所以我們討論的脈絡就是說他現在最高是3.6他要到4.8嘛所以怎麼會說這個沒有在討論稅率不然我們現在在幹嘛他在那個年數你所講的什麼五年七年那個是無關的嘛那這個就是不是啦你這個就是這個裝睡人搖不行嘛"},{"start":5869.833,"end":5870.713,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":5886.641,"end":5909.051,"text":"他的配套就是這樣我們不要睜眼說瞎話嘛他現在他的整個規範的設計就是如此反而是說我們的版本是希望說他能夠入法是希望說他至少有一個法規範的依據那財政部的版本是不是像我講的這樣子他要到五年之後才算建商囤房五年之後才算4.8是嘛"},{"start":5910.785,"end":5910.965,"text":"民進黨團提議．．"},{"start":5934.356,"end":5935.457,"text":"現在最多屯房的就是一到三房"},{"start":5954.326,"end":5954.646,"text":"民進黨團提議：立法院黨團提議"},{"start":5977.83,"end":6003.77,"text":"可以增加多少的稅收?一間房子夠一千塊?所以我要講的是說我今天也是完全覺得莫名其妙啊為什麼大家大家都而且你的這個版本你是非常的體恤建商的建商屯房是大家認為說現在是對不是扣帽子啊那你可以表示你覺得說讓他可以賣七年不是體恤建商"},{"start":6007.133,"end":6007.553,"text":"實在力量黨提的"},{"start":6024.407,"end":6043.644,"text":"五條之一我們提案的這個目的只有一個就是鼓勵這個空屋的釋出這個去出租那其實你可以看到就是說你現在最高級距都已經4.8了才4.8那所以就這部分的話"},{"start":6044.605,"end":6071.532,"text":"我們是希望說你至少應該要多鼓勵他去讓他去出租因此所定的稅率比財政部稅率為低目的何在就是說如果財政部如果是以財政部的規定的話一定要達到租金的標準此方式不僅可以影響房東與租客之間的交易協議自由還限定要達最低房租的水準"},{"start":6072.993,"end":6100.553,"text":"這也是讓民眾感到租金的壓力因此既然是要鼓勵 空屋的事出出租的話應該就是只需要審查租賃契約就可以了給予房東跟房客 較大的方便性的誘因讓民眾有適宜的房屋可以住就是說 其實我們的目標並不是就像剛剛房地合一說提到的基本上"},{"start":6101.394,"end":6101.494,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":6118.399,"end":6143.698,"text":"可以就是說買到或是租得起也好買得起房子吧所以租稅捐增稅再強調一次增稅不是重點重點是我們要平抑這個房價所以不要把增稅當作最主要的目的而忘了最根本的這個目標所以這個因此我們希望修這個新增這個房屋稅條例五字一條"},{"start":6145.078,"end":6145.238,"text":"第九條"},{"start":6166.533,"end":6174.562,"text":"請看第十一條,第十一條也有協商的意見,那如果大家沒有意見我們也照協商的內容通過這樣好不好"},{"start":6187.475,"end":6188.096,"text":"有一個修正動議"},{"start":6204.121,"end":6204.461,"text":"其他就照審查會的結論通過"},{"start":6227.932,"end":6245.775,"text":"第25條的立法說明有怎麼樣有修正一個叫第11條是吧大家看一下就是說最後那立法說明要調整一下那調整一下就這樣那調適的問題嘛好那接下來就請大家看第二案第二案第三案"},{"start":6247.834,"end":6249.814,"text":"這個案子其實沒有太多的爭議只是說金額的調整"},{"start":6273.252,"end":6291.507,"text":"我們很多委員提出的案子主要的目的我先跟院長各位委員跟官員們報告一下就是台灣的出生率現在越來越低去年的出生率好像只有13萬3"},{"start":6294.025,"end":6294.365,"text":"民進黨團提議８立法院黨團提議８"},{"start":6316.288,"end":6317.729,"text":"主案目的是日後可以增加勞動力"},{"start":6327.26,"end":6344.295,"text":"20年以後可以有多繳稅的人否則我們台灣人口減少也是國內的流失或者是你外來人口的加入我想我們還是要多生一點台灣的小孩這是主要的目的我們現在總共有幾個方向"},{"start":6351.175,"end":6351.596,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":6368.56,"end":6392.413,"text":"第二 特別扣除目前是12萬部長是不是12萬很多委員要提出來到24萬18萬後來我跟財政部在財委會大家也都同意我們微幅的調一下就從12萬到15萬當然財政部願意到18萬我們也接受"},{"start":6394.994,"end":6417.145,"text":"當然我們審這個案子的時候我們看到底加惠於誰對我們在場的人尤其委員大概都沒有除非我們老柯有老柯你打算生第二個嗎不會喔你生第二個我額外送你一個大紅包你比我還有能力我希望我要回去要徵求我太太同意"},{"start":6420.002,"end":6443.268,"text":"同時不排富 因為排富你加上一百多萬 說實在以台北市 年薪一百萬也不算高了你想考慮到現在養孩子很貴 而且買房子也很貴 所以我們把排富把它拿掉 大家也都同意這個是大家 現在正要討論的是 我第一個孩子特別控訴是十二萬增加到多少錢"},{"start":6446.253,"end":6468.433,"text":"就是五到六歲沒有爭議 排富大家沒有爭議還有第二個小孩把他的特別扣除額調整後的增加50%那便於財政部計算方面就是第二個小孩以後第三第四個通通都固定了再增加50%"},{"start":6470.194,"end":6488.661,"text":"事實上財政部也去拿幾年前的資料來試算大概稅損在8到10億 院長可以報告一下稅損沒有多少只有8到10億而且那時候以當時在3年前5年前那時候小孩子出生率是比較高的"},{"start":6489.901,"end":6490.242,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":6505.765,"end":6528.826,"text":"大家所有委員的目的都是良善的希望台灣的小孩多生一點日後增加勞動力日後在他成年以後工作可以多繳稅其實長遠的看對國家絕對是一個好的案子現在有的爭議就是特別公署第一個小孩是12萬增加到幾萬"},{"start":6530.68,"end":6540.785,"text":"第二是我們固定第二個小孩以後通通是增加比第一胎的小孩增加50%大概是這兩個方向 謝謝"},{"start":6543.962,"end":6546.403,"text":"這次的修法"},{"start":6563.371,"end":6583.028,"text":"當然我們的目的還是希望有點跟剛才我們費總召講的是很接近就是說當然目的是希望說這個是有點鼓勵的那個性質啦那因為過去我們在這個用這種列舉的方式甚至講直白點他根本就是用標準扣除就已經結束了這件事所以這個東西就是一直看得到吃不到的"},{"start":6583.248,"end":6583.588,"text":"民進黨團提議：立法院黨團提議"},{"start":6604.415,"end":6604.795,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":6620.461,"end":6620.561,"text":"吳維基委員"},{"start":6651.301,"end":6669.12,"text":"其實在17條說的稅法我們也是我提我們跟黨團提的也是有關於租金扣除額的部分那財政部這邊已經OK是把它放到特別扣除額了嘛那我們現在其實差大家各版本的差異是在不同的金額"},{"start":6670.041,"end":6671.122,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":6688.26,"end":6688.6,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":6712.692,"end":6713.333,"text":"邱董昌議員"},{"start":6727.933,"end":6751.003,"text":"12萬你要去設想說這個新手的爸爸媽媽他在現在2023年嘛2012年的時候12萬那2023年他所要承載的這個負擔多了多少光是這個所謂的房價就翻了不知道幾倍"},{"start":6752.824,"end":6777.663,"text":"兩倍還不止說實在的所以在這種情況之下你說2012年12萬現在要喊到多少才能夠足夠以一個例子來講的話就是說以台北市為例公社民營托嬰中心月費是一萬一社區公共托育家園的月費是一萬四千五如果是私立托嬰中心的話光是註冊費就八千塊"},{"start":6780.245,"end":6780.385,"text":"臺灣出生嬰兒數目"},{"start":6805.845,"end":6806.025,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":6831.171,"end":6846.119,"text":"這個有句話說這個養育一個孩子需要全村的力量其實現在也是一樣就是說新手的父母不是說他孤立的在無緣的情況之下然後呢兩個新手的爸爸媽媽在照顧這個小孩"},{"start":6846.459,"end":6850.042,"text":"發言順序我稍微宣布一下 不然有人很急科總召 再來曾總召 再來就是陳教法委員"},{"start":6883.326,"end":6903.684,"text":"我們是希望表達現在少子化的問題真的是非常嚴重非常非常嚴重所以要鼓勵要生然後這個照顧養育是很辛苦的我們要讓年輕人有感願意生這是國安問題"},{"start":6904.482,"end":6904.742,"text":"賴慧卿議員"},{"start":6924.71,"end":6949.883,"text":"我聽了一下我整理第一個這案子惠總召很清楚他在財務委員提出來了後來隔一個禮拜由這個總法院委員也提租金扣除了基本上這都還不夠一個月啦也就是說還不到表決期我希望說今天我特別把他放最後的時候上禮拜五把他放入訪問事項也就是說我希望大家能夠談好"},{"start":6951.528,"end":6978.2,"text":"這基本上是一個得證好的事情那不要靜音箱喊架啦這個大原則那我剛才仔細聽一下副總裁的講法就是說當然以前從2.5到12所以是從12到15然後以後在第二個就double這個是一個說法張啓祐是24萬嘛民眾黨走了那威廉30萬這個是最高的邱人志也是24萬嘛"},{"start":6981.516,"end":6999.511,"text":"你30萬嗎?我講的是租金啦,不是那個...現在沒有在談租金,現在是幼兒啦喔,抱歉,好現在是...租金還沒...那個...實在要是24吧?成交吧?沒有,你要7吧?但是你還是單一的,我們有極具的差別就是說"},{"start":7000.816,"end":7002.317,"text":"本來是要排戶現在就不排戶了"},{"start":7032.517,"end":7033.078,"text":"我查一個話好了"},{"start":7058.072,"end":7085.674,"text":"我是體諒這個案子因為還沒有到協商期所以如果用表決的話勢必不能表決所以我才願意讓他以過為原則現在癥結點大概只有一個啦就是特別控訴我現在是12萬15萬財政部可以接受18萬財政部有點勉強"},{"start":7088.871,"end":7089.672,"text":"第一胎到十八萬"},{"start":7115.666,"end":7130.533,"text":"第二胎就是18萬的渣50% 第三胎也是固定一樣 第四胎也是一樣這個陸排戶 陸排戶的稅損已經達到將近7億了等一下我們再算一下 我們再談一下 五分鐘以後再談好不好休息五分鐘啦大家要把它談清楚 要用共識啦 因為這沒辦法表決 如果要表決這會其實過不了"},{"start":7143.643,"end":7144.064,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7171.178,"end":7174.82,"text":"其實稅損大概不到10億啦促進生意小錢啦"},{"start":7198.65,"end":7199.51,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7223.941,"end":7226.424,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7238.638,"end":7241.039,"text":"大家談好啊 大家簽一簽"},{"start":7268.201,"end":7269.387,"text":"共同提案一起提案"},{"start":7455.079,"end":7456.24,"text":"這個協商有共識我們就照這樣通過啦"},{"start":7475.932,"end":7478.674,"text":"財政部講清楚因為113年度稅出兩兆八千多元將近兩兆九你在稅損才多少"},{"start":7498.459,"end":7525.319,"text":"對阿,三十億阿不行阿,這個還是太低稅選才多少這個老柯,我是跟院長報告,誠懇的建議因為這個案子還不能到表決的階段我們十一到二十九要再送出來所以呢,平安安,我們是希望過第一要務"},{"start":7527.503,"end":7555.115,"text":"第二當然財政部我沒有克制他們我雖然私下跟他們開玩笑像我在立法院財委會我對企業的我們這個營所稅我從來不把它往下降但是中所稅我是覺得可以讓往下降中所稅是每一個人都適用企業專行繳稅多繳一點我都支持的"},{"start":7555.748,"end":7571.817,"text":"但是個人的部分尤其是這個案子這個案子我覺得 比方講我剛才開我們柯總召的玩笑他也不會再升了啦曾品中大也不會再升了 院長大也不會再升了我也不會再升了 對不對"},{"start":7574.93,"end":7574.95,"text":"從12萬到15萬"},{"start":7597.762,"end":7615.608,"text":"不排付 再加上第二胎到第三胎以後 通通再增加第一胎的50%這樣的 院長給你報告 這樣稅準多少 23億太少了與全國齁 與全國 我們今年的稅收將近可以到3兆 你想想看嘛3兆 10%是 3兆 3000"},{"start":7626.8,"end":7626.84,"text":"主席"},{"start":7641.058,"end":7667.558,"text":"我們邱委員大家也都知道這案子他也願意從24降到1818大概稅損是多少老柯我給你報告你還要配合到出生率的往下降大概在30到35兆之間我講的合理吧大概是30到一年稅損是30到35兆相對我們中損稅一年現在6千億"},{"start":7669.355,"end":7672.137,"text":"一百個只有八十個生小孩"},{"start":7693.49,"end":7694.551,"text":"民進黨團提議：立法院黨團提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議．"},{"start":7717.296,"end":7738.297,"text":"今天所有的案子我都沒有意見都尊重更多我是懇切的啦懇切的來談這個事我還沒講我跟你講啊大家在這裡講話都要負責啦當然啦大家都方向都一樣你第一次講法就是到15吧然後第二年第二胎的時候是50%"},{"start":7740.009,"end":7740.589,"text":"我公開私下的我都講過"},{"start":7761.292,"end":7785.696,"text":"這不是我們個人的問題而且同時我們協商的時候就是15萬然後第二胎加50%第三個不牌付但是提醒我講剛才有很多黨團我是把大家的心聲講出來最後取決決定如果說你們財政部我沒有說你不同意財政部不同意我就按照當初的版本"},{"start":7786.556,"end":7811.31,"text":"你聽我講我沒有講你們民進黨團的那個案子我還要重申一次是我上禮拜五特別把列印討論事項從來沒有一個人來跟我講這個事情那我覺得這個很重要雖然還沒到一個月包括志明扣除也應該大家可以有理性來討論這是第一個原則第二個我們讓志明總講完如果說你們不同意就算了好不好"},{"start":7813.612,"end":7814.533,"text":"那我講一下,我們要講完嘛"},{"start":7818.325,"end":7846.241,"text":"你要了解齁 這個是要報稅人才有扣房很多人不要報稅人不到這個所以這個有落差有不公平所以這個要考慮這個事情啦這報稅人要贏得到 不報稅人就一堆啦有落差不公平所以我們既然大家講好有共識都已經這樣的15、22年 第二胎的時候22.5不知道邱永志委員 大家都同意嘛那鄭明忠委員就不要堅持我們就這樣大家共同提案了嘛"},{"start":7847.302,"end":7875.209,"text":"然後第二個就是說因為不排戶所以那邊的順粉也打到將近7億啦所以這樣加起來順粉不少今天不問國家不是說我們要講一個合理的邏輯啦因為總統不要吸水公安也不理他但是這裡有一個合理邏輯嘛好不好好你先講啊剛剛休息前本來就輪到我啊我本來剛剛就要講"},{"start":7876.539,"end":7905.943,"text":"其實所能稅法第十七條這個柴委會的先進在這裡過去都不敢修嘛那為什麼不敢修就怕比照援引恐怕這個在柴委會的所能稅法第十七條的提案恐怕超過一百案兩百案怕的是嘛那更多怕援引比照那既然大家已經有這個共識了嘛"},{"start":7907.547,"end":7908.548,"text":"一年稅出兩兆八千億我的想法是"},{"start":7936.004,"end":7936.144,"text":"主席"},{"start":7960.669,"end":7964.45,"text":"補充一點剛剛柯總召講說第一胎15萬第二胎增加到52.5%基本上我的態度是含淚接受"},{"start":7979.035,"end":8005.291,"text":"這個說實在因為我們現在討論的是幼兒扣除額嘛簡單講就是說現在托嬰的費用很高啦你現在認為說你讓這個年輕的爸爸媽媽能夠體會到說國家對他的支持那這個其實是非常非常重要的當然這個15萬的扣除額一定是不夠的啦一定是不夠的嘛所以我們版本才會是24萬那"},{"start":8006.992,"end":8023.174,"text":"就是說要跟財政部我覺得也要溝通一個觀念因為國家財政是靠誰來支撐當然是靠人來支撐是靠這個人做一個主體來支撐那你如果人口的問題這麼嚴峻"},{"start":8024.916,"end":8053.739,"text":"就像大家講的這已經是一個國安問題了沒有台灣人怎麼有辦法有稅收去支撐這個國家的這個財政那我剛剛跟院長講說法國媒體來問我說這個台灣的人口的問題他問我說那在法國可能這個一個婦女有兩個這個小孩平均那台灣的狀況是怎麼樣我跟他說只有0.8他嚇了一跳"},{"start":8054.842,"end":8081.856,"text":"所以你就知道說這個人口的問題在台灣有多嚴峻世界倒數第一這絕對是一個非常重要的警訊那這個也會嚴重影響未來的財政部的稅收跟他的財政所以你應該是要站在這樣的一個角度因為等一下我們也會討論另外一個房租扣除我的部分你應該要站在這個角度就是說"},{"start":8082.896,"end":8101.521,"text":"在大家願意生小孩的情況之下你如何能夠去支持他並且給予他更好的一個優惠應該是在這樣的一個角度那稅損 我坦白講剛剛其實貝爾園跟曾委員提到這個稅損是27億這27億在佔了三兆裡面不到千分之一"},{"start":8108.863,"end":8128.187,"text":"所以你可以從其他的方面那包括這幾年的超徵稅額等等都已經這麼多錢了你可以從其他方面去著手但是如何能夠讓這些新手的爸媽媽媽得到他的支持這個部分才是最重要的今年的這個稅收超徵上看3800億你這個稅順才27億"},{"start":8134.309,"end":8151.871,"text":"陳教法委員陳委員您說完我們就做決定了我還是要強調就是說因為我身為職業婦女就是職業婦女我們要生孩生兒育女還要照顧家庭還要做家事坦白說是很辛苦啦"},{"start":8152.412,"end":8177.193,"text":"所以今天我們要鼓勵職業婦女然後願意生而且快樂的生我們給她一點這樣子的特別扣除我覺得真的是很好的利益啦那剛剛就是提到就是12到15坦白講真的是非常有限啦雖然這次柯總召你的非常這個支持的做法把她納進來討論不過我是覺得"},{"start":8180.616,"end":8205.451,"text":"若願意的話大家還是至少提高到18這樣子還是會比較好啦那我們也希望財政部說明就是18是如果說可以的話如果說頂多就是27億以下嘛所以如果是做得到的話我還是支持我們希望大家有共識能夠通過第一台18因為我們剛才有初步的共識還是好來柯總長"},{"start":8208.493,"end":8226.424,"text":"以前有初步公示我們就照這樣來做啦我要講一件事情就是說剛剛在這裡大家都很會講哇 這國安問題怎麼樣但是在今天以前哪一個委員跟我講說這個案子要抬進去我上禮拜五特別早上六點鐘就提案我那邊有提一個案 原住民身分法"},{"start":8227.384,"end":8231.607,"text":"實力有排阿 只是沒有排進去而已阿我們有提案 但是能不能排是你的權利阿我們又沒辦法排"},{"start":8242.475,"end":8244.056,"text":"第二案就照這樣通過第三案的部分"},{"start":8272.312,"end":8274.214,"text":"有關租金支出的部分現在財政部是有答應"},{"start":8297.449,"end":8297.489,"text":"主席"},{"start":8317.746,"end":8327.015,"text":"以台北市租金的情況大概有兩萬所以評計數在兩萬左右所以我是建議提高到二十四萬 謝謝"},{"start":8333.686,"end":8361.012,"text":"邱總裁謝謝院長那其實這個跟剛剛那個脈絡也是一樣啦如果能夠給予年輕世代更多的支持這樣那其實根據主計總出2020年的資料全台家務平均月租金一公尺差不多15000元啦那這15000元基本上也是比較低估的這個數字因為光是2020年第二期社會住宅包租代管的計畫"},{"start":8361.832,"end":8381.659,"text":"台北市的這個平均月租差不多兩萬塊那你可以看到光是這兩個數字都是看到租金的這個底線大概是落在一萬五到兩萬多塊那在舉例來講的話像這個前幾年大安區的八坪的獨立套房租金大概在一萬一左右"},{"start":8382.179,"end":8399.12,"text":"那如果再比對現在網路上出租的資料現在租金大約已經漲到一萬五了所以從房價漲到租金漲的這個狀況那整個六都二零二三年上半年住宅平均租金如果你用二十坪嘛你只要二十坪的住宅"},{"start":8399.84,"end":8416.402,"text":"臺北市月租大約三萬二 桃園市也大概一萬四左右所以就這部分的話你租金的下限在那裏不一定但是你的天花板是一直往上的所以這不可能是說這個不去做調整的這個狀況"},{"start":8418.504,"end":8439.178,"text":"包括民間團體例如村媽媽基金會都有表示過租金應該是由例舉的扣除偶改為特別扣除偶那也應該要調高到大概30萬左右那這跟實例版本的提案是一致的就這個部分的話我們希望能夠去做相應的調整給予民眾一個長期穩定的支持"},{"start":8444.642,"end":8471.198,"text":"那就是這個財政部也常常講說免繳稅有大概305萬戶啦所以租稅優惠的調整對多數的民眾不會有幫助那我們認為說這個邏輯不對租稅優惠的出發點就是要去幫助那些有需要幫助的民眾包括這些比較弱勢的民眾那所以就這部分的話我們是希望說能夠給予這些"},{"start":8472.619,"end":8472.659,"text":"吳亦廷偉"},{"start":8481.152,"end":8481.372,"text":"民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":8505.862,"end":8506.082,"text":"柯總裁"},{"start":8530.544,"end":8556.196,"text":"這案子我還是要重申費用證委員牌以後,剛才又有扣除以後,下禮拜就是審判委員牌我很注意到這個事情那我這段時間一直想找老會談說我們這個大概有一個公司來通過昨天早上來的時候就特別談這個問題上個禮拜也是跟曾董事長談過除此之外都是我主動拜託"},{"start":8558.524,"end":8567.969,"text":"現在大家出來醒起來 這個很會講道理我們不進的 什麼催媽媽我們要講一個道理假如說我們現在有300萬護士"},{"start":8569.861,"end":8596.629,"text":"不必報稅的年輕人根本用不上我們用到兩萬多我們要照顧弱勢所謂年輕人根本用不上這個東西這個都是要收入要一定程度才用得上那我們現在 認證部還有另外一個措施就是黃豬丁補貼所以18萬這樣加起來已經到兩萬多塊啦這不是用在你昨天是要講到弱勢弱勢那300萬沒有一個用得上這個"},{"start":8597.569,"end":8611.963,"text":"所以這個我們到底用在什麼地方大家要很清楚所以我們要把立法樓級和我們整個要加會哪些人講清楚以後我希望大家有共識不要再互相抹黑講話都不一樣"},{"start":8615.094,"end":8616.955,"text":"現在在談的是應該是你扣除二到底要多少"},{"start":8633.706,"end":8639.712,"text":"我們希望這樣的補貼政策不要只是一個短期的預算補貼政策"},{"start":8649.821,"end":8649.901,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":8669.011,"end":8677.454,"text":"委員長 各位委員我在財委會19年我很少對富人去減稅基本上是沒有所以對關稅對銀索稅你看我從來不碰"},{"start":8695.576,"end":8717.797,"text":"剛才我們這個 因為老柯在立法院那麼是最資深的我們曾總召當過財政部的次長 當過金管會的次長我們會考慮到我們的財政紀律今天 明天是最後一天 就是這個任期這個任期 不是這個會議 這個任期 最後一天"},{"start":8719.235,"end":8745.022,"text":"其實在我的這個會期我當召委員：很多人拜託還有所謂的稅法第十七條還有很多案子老柯我跟大家報告我都不碰我都不碰那個會影響那個碰那些案子有些案子確實是對有錢人會有好處我之所以提到這兩個案子我願意拿出來協商平常去講哈"},{"start":8746.355,"end":8760.032,"text":"對有錢人根本不在意這個東西有錢人不在意生小孩了你看有錢人鼓勵生小孩生第一胎給一千萬生第二胎給一億他不會care這個東西但是確實是一個國安問題"},{"start":8762.692,"end":8787.669,"text":"第二件事情我們在最後一天來談這個這個任期沒有其他的所有的稅法第17條了就不可能啦對政府的稅損不會有什麼影響的但是我們是在協商嘛尤其是比方講委員對柯建民要提出啊他非常正面的因為這兩個案第二案第三案子"},{"start":8788.823,"end":8816.41,"text":"如果今天不處理是無法表決的因為在協商期他在協商期這個基本上還是要對柯建民表示謝謝的高度肯定肯定就可以了不需要高度肯定上禮拜五我特別早上六點鐘就排第一案排第一個把他放進去然後這個我們要講齁中部大會當然要有公式的齁我這要講就是說會員清楚啊"},{"start":8818.59,"end":8837.05,"text":"一百零八年的時候,修所的稅法八十幾個案子,我們這派援引阿那時候我手把抽出金額圖,然後在草原協商,你要為這個事情抱怨叫我道歉我說沒有辦法不處理阿,你報警案要怎麼協商,所以各黨一個版本出來那我們今天這個大概,最後給大家一個圓滿的記號"},{"start":8846.244,"end":8856.174,"text":"委員長補充一下這個是福國利民照顧中低收入的我們共同提案好不好共同提案這個真的是覺得說再補充一下因為你現在你說18萬嘛對不對18萬的問題就是說"},{"start":8863.041,"end":8888.649,"text":"他就變成是說一個月大概滿一萬五啦那剛剛其實提到因為臺北市光是說這個2020年現在已經2023年根據這個2020年這個第二期社會住宅包租貸款計畫他的平均月租金也是很滿扣所以你一萬五一定是遠低於現在的租金的行情啦"},{"start":8889.628,"end":8889.848,"text":"民進黨團提議．．"},{"start":8908.977,"end":8932.055,"text":"那這個就是說是不是可以商榷一下就是說利用18萬的委事事實上那個租金是真的是跟現在的這個行情是完全不足的這個狀況那不然就跟我提案啦齁我唸一下好不好今天的協商結論唸一下"},{"start":8937.225,"end":8939.229,"text":"這個有關於這個第一案的部分齁"},{"start":8941.581,"end":8967.407,"text":"第9條第11條條文及第25條立法說明如何附協商內容第2、第5條實在力量黨團提案增訂第5條之一第6條保留送院會處理3、其餘均照審查會審查結果通過4、本案院會進行處理時協商通過部分先讀後均予以通過"},{"start":8968.789,"end":8997.521,"text":"保留部分 均暫保留保留部分 院會進行處理前由各黨團推派一人依時代力量黨團台灣民眾黨黨團國民黨黨團民進黨黨團順序輪流發言每人發言時間為三分鐘鐘發言完畢後各該保留條文均不再發言並依上開黨團順序進行各保留條文黨版版本黨團版本之處理好 那再來是"},{"start":8998.294,"end":9004.921,"text":"第二案跟第三案 我也在這邊認一下印來看看吧 要提案吧那第二案第三案"},{"start":9020.953,"end":9022.314,"text":"上述兩案,宴會並案處理,第十七條,照協商內容通過如何付?"},{"start":9039.775,"end":9044.237,"text":"要諾硯陽針的版本大家跟我們簽啦,我會把版本備託好不好?"},{"start":9060.023,"end":9060.503,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9418.374,"end":9435.609,"text":"一方面在溝通那一方面我在這邊有三個案宣布第一個案是外交國防一百二十六案那有關於這個組結議的部分就修正文字就修正那修正如乎就通過"},{"start":9437.564,"end":9437.784,"text":"主席"},{"start":9459.633,"end":9477.861,"text":"內政委員會 二十五案 會經黨團溝通以後有關主席議員作修正 修正如本表第四個部分就是耐世保委員"},{"start":9481.052,"end":9501.608,"text":"同意有賴世保委員提案的有關高等法院九十二、九十四、九十五、九十六、一零零、一零一、一零四七個案七個案跟高等法院有關係的這一個是同一側案另外"},{"start":9506.107,"end":9524.316,"text":"另外請高等法院繼續跟民眾溝通除了這個以外已經協商刪除的部分會出案"},{"start":9525.865,"end":9525.945,"text":"主席"},{"start":9551.591,"end":9552.331,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}