{"error":false,"id":["153654"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153654,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153654","日期":"2024-06-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-20","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":20,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-05T13:01:20+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-05T13:16:55+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:35","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98d031f3071e3c596384a12a82c262ca10b5dc6a9f8e8436d6171d6b737590146f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"13:01:20 - 13:16:55","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":858,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時1分）謝謝召委。有請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。恭喜部長凱旋歸國，也賀喜部長榮任部長。"],["邱部長泰源：要多跟建國委員學習。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝啦！","部長，我想，爭取參加WHA是不分朝野黨派的，加入也絕對是全臺灣2,300萬人共同期盼的一件事情。未來你可能有四年任期、甚至於更久，怎麼樣、如何以有雄心壯志、有事先規劃、累積八年的叩關經驗──你從當醫師公會全聯會理事長、委員、世界醫師全聯會理事累積這樣經驗的情況之下，有什麼樣的計畫、有什麼樣的雄心壯志、有什麼樣的預期打造目標，讓我們可以順利加入？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。第一個我要聲明的是，雖然我們的目標是進入WHO，甚至在WHA當observer，但是如果碰觸政治的壓力，也不要灰心喪志，我們還有很多事情可以照顧國人的健康，也有很多事情可以幫助世界的人民，這些都不要放棄。我們目前所做的就是一步一步在努力這些事情，而每一次努力成果都是一個關鍵、一個小成功，等這些累積以後，自然就有機會、會水到渠成。這是第一點我的理念。","第二，我覺得我們當然不能固守於過去的作法，要結合更多的力量。比如說，我常常在講，臺灣的醫衛團體至少有一百個，這一百個中，每個都是非常強的、跟國際有作連結，所以重點在於這些團體未來怎麼作為強大的結合力量。今天某一位委員詢答時也提到某一位專家如果去的話，可能因為其他國家大家很尊敬他，就會有很大的力量，這些我們也都要評估。第三個，我覺得培養更年輕的國際人才也是我們政府要作的責任，我想大概就從這幾個方面來努力。","但是我還是要對國人勉勵，就是大家一定要團結，每一次努力都是未來成功的關鍵、每一次努力都有豐碩的果實，而不要受到政治力量影響。目標在那邊，雖然目前好像還達不到，但是其實我們的努力已經享受到豐碩的成果。"],["劉委員建國：部長，我就是簡單讓你說明清楚。但是從後面的人才培訓來看，坦白講，要養成也不是一朝一夕就可以完成，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：而我一直特別強調的主題是在你未來四年，有可能更久嘛！但是我們先講第一個階段，就是未來四年要如何達標、達到這個目標嘛！部長剛剛答復我的基本上沒有針對我的問題作答復，但是鼓勵國人不要放棄、我們一起努力，跟所有醫界、醫事團體，大家共同一起發聲，連結到世界各地比較尖端、菁英的醫療人士，讓臺灣的能見度可以更高、讓臺灣在衛生醫療這樣的領域可以持續往前去領先，我覺得當然也是可以慢慢地去累積一點一滴的小小成果，應該誠如部長所講這樣的理念。","但是我還是希望有比較具體的做法。我在這邊具體建議部長，你可以看到最近在臺北辦得沸沸揚揚的國際電腦展，全世界科技的菁英、臺灣的重要科技龍頭都齊聚在一堂，每天新聞報不完，幾乎臺灣就是全世界在AI、在科技上非常重要、重中之重的國家。我們的能見度打開了，我們讓全世界看到臺灣在這塊領域的實力是這麼堅強！我們也無須擔憂中共透過任何政治力量的管道打壓我們。臺灣自詡醫療非常進步、先進，昨天我們又通過再生醫療雙法等等，AI未來絕對要跟醫療連結到一定的緊密程度。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以我才會特別希望部長，既然過去累積那麼多經驗、這麼多職務，是不是有了這個機會後能更有願景、更有規劃，也讓全世界醫療的重要人士，誠如你剛才所講的舉足輕重人士，可以時不時地來到我們臺灣參加任何論壇還是尖端醫療、AI醫療的相關國際會議？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：我覺得在這樣的情況之下，或許也會讓世界衛生組織刮目相看，或許我們舉辦的這些醫療公衛論壇在功能上甚至也會超越世界衛生組織，所以我才問部長有沒有這樣的雄心壯志。","再來，我拜讀了賴總統當天的就職演說，也拜讀了行政院卓院長的施政報告。我覺得打造一個AI島嶼國家、打造一個科技進步的國家、打造一個創新的國家，就誠如邱部長今天答復相關委員所講的，努力到80%就一直沒有辦法再往上衝的時候，可能就需要更有智慧的、更創新的思維。我建議在創新思維之外要兼具具體的做法，讓全世界頂端的、尖端的醫療產業、醫療人才不時地可以聚集在臺灣科技進步、醫療進步的國家，一起努力地促進世界衛生醫療，並成為世界上連結醫療跟科技最緊密、最有機會的國家。我們朝這個方向努力，部長，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：非常好，委員的指示是灼見，我們的國家就是應該要往這方面努力。在醫療衛生方面，我剛剛跟委員報告過，很多、很多團體其實都有請過重量級人士，都是世界主席來啦！幾乎所有專業團體，不管外科、內科、家醫科、婦產科等等，他們的世界主席每年到臺灣來演講的機會都非常多。另外，衛福部本身在每年11月也都辦有全球健康論壇，幾乎把友好國家全請到。我這次去，在四十幾場活動上，每一場都遞邀請函給部長，當然不一定大家都會來，但都滿有盛況的，也展示了我們臺灣在衛生領域的國力。對於AI或相關各方面的人才，我覺得也要集合起來，所以會遵照委員的指示來做。"],["劉委員建國：不要說指示，我只是特別向部長建議可以有立即性的、具體的做法。當然這不是部長一個人就可以承擔起來的，但是要快速地跨部會、快速作相關整合，可能在部長就任後的第一年就可以馬上展現出來，今天有國際電腦展在臺灣臺北，明年是不是會有國際AI醫療展在邱部長的主政之下馬上推動？經過第一年、第二年、第三年，我們會愈見成熟，就不怕任何打壓、任何政治上的干擾行為，我覺得這是給部長最好的建議跟參考，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：這是一件事情。","第二件事情，就誠如你所講的，人才的養成跟培育非常重要，我要請照護司上來一下，拜託主席再給我時間，我最後3分鐘把這件事情講完。日前呂次長來時，我特別跟他提及社工人力，社工人力不足的情況已經非常嚴重，未來五年可能不到需求的8%、7%。心理師這麼大的需求，人力卻不到7%，未來五年還是這個樣子。現在護理界，不管是護理師還是護士，把病床減量、關起來，絕非空穴來風，也不是現今才發生的事情。當然，司長也特別作了相關說明，但實際上跟司長說明的落差值非常大，我甚至可以馬上提供：雲林縣的區域醫院在幾年前就關了30%以上，只不過是沒有見報而已、只不過是不願意說出來而已。在人才、護理人力這麼欠缺的情況之下，如果又沒有求新、求變，沒有誠如邱部長所講的有創新思維、創新的政策，我跟你講，人數還是會持續降下來。他們面對的職場環境、面對的整個待遇、從夜班、從日班，相關期盼都必須由政府再匡列相關預算支持。","但是如果持續這樣的處理方式，一成不變地從預算面處理，人力方面還是一樣沒辦法解決。你可以看我的圖表，已經顯示每況愈下，110年63.44%，111年63.17%，112年63%。在100年的時候，我要求助理跟你們調相關資料，你們竟然跟我講沒有！那時我是跟幾位委員共同提案，要求改善護理環境、提升護理待遇。當時的衛生署編了10億，但10億分散給區域醫院、地區醫院、醫學中心之後，結果被拿去買制服、辦運動會，完全沒有用在護理人員身上，隔年才再增加20億。先不要說夜班的加班費、不要說未來日班的相關津貼，這幾年公部門編了多少預算投入護理界？司長，你比我更清楚。我絕對支持，但是在投入這麼多預算的情況之下仍讓護理人員的執業率持續下降，你該當何罪啊！你有什麼新的、創新的方式，誠如部長所講的？你要回應啊！你要說明清楚啊！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：好，謝謝委員。臺灣整個護理人力的問題在於量上面的主要問題是留不住，那職場環境的改善就是重要的。"],["劉委員建國：改善了十多年，投入這麼多預算，還是在講職場環境要改善？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們在去年已經得到行政院核定，有12項計畫，不管是從人才增加10%的培育以及職場環境跟薪資的改善，有12項策略。針對12項策略，目前已經有40億經費得到支持，也開始在運用了。還有3項計畫是中長程的，4月也提到行政院，核定完之後，我們也會……"],["劉委員建國：預期效益就是增加10%嘛！對不對？預期效益嘛！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：人力。"],["劉委員建國：人力要提高10%嘛！對不對？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：是量。"],["劉委員建國：是不是這樣？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。"],["劉委員建國：量能可以提高10%嘛！也就是說，112年是63%，可能未來可以增加到73%嘛！是不是這樣？你的意思是這樣嘛！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：是培育的人力啦！"],["劉委員建國：培育的人力？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：就是說對於未來量的需求……"],["劉委員建國：我現在是在跟你談領有護理師跟護士執照者執業的下降率，而你是在答復我如何讓這個比例往上提升嘛！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對，就是執業率要提升。"],["劉委員建國：對，執業率提升。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：執業人數增加。"],["劉委員建國：那你要提升10%，對不對？就是預期效益嘛！何時達標？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：不是10%。"],["劉委員建國：不然是幾個百分點嘛？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們針對未來供需做了一些試算，2030年大概需要增加最少5.5萬。"],["劉委員建國：最少5.5萬？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：2030年。"],["劉委員建國：2030年？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。"],["劉委員建國：現在是2024年，所以還有6年時間。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。"],["劉委員建國：所以平均每年要增加一萬出頭嘛！對不對？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。"],["劉委員建國：這是預期要達到的效益跟目標？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：是。"],["劉委員建國：確定可以達標？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們積極努力。"],["劉委員建國：積極努力？那我們就要檢視了嘛！現在這些相關計畫跟經費都到位了吧？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：部分到位，部分在爭取中。"],["劉委員建國：部分到位，部分在爭取中？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。我們現在有12項計畫，在這12項計畫裡面，目前在三班輪值、夜班獎勵這40億已經到位。另外，還有其他3項，大概一年要將近……"],["劉委員建國：不！你簡單答復我好不好？12項中已經到位幾項了嘛？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：基本上全部都啟動了啦！經費部分，有兩項已經到位。至於其他的，目前還有3項在爭取經費，有些不是直接由我們公務預算處理的也開始了，比如說公職護理師比例增加或三班護病比標準的訂定跟推動。"],["劉委員建國：這12項政策基本上都啟動了嘛！對不對？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。"],["劉委員建國：好，所以預期到了2030年進入職場的護理人力可以增加5萬5,000人嘛！是不是這樣？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。"],["劉委員建國：那我們明年就可以檢視了喔！目標是5萬5,000人，從2025年開始算嘛！對不對？那等同一年要增加將近1萬人嘛！沒有錯吧？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對，但是我們的重點在於希望從每年沒有進入職場與流失的8,000人裡面，每年能夠多增加五成進入職場。"],["劉委員建國：我現在跟你講的、我在請教你的就是增加的，你不要再跟我講未扣掉流失的人數喔！你不能對我答復這種模稜兩可的事情喔！我是在講增加，如果你要跟我講可能增加1萬、流失8,000，那就只有增加2,000喔！你講的12項計畫如果是這麼不堪，那不叫計畫喔！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：沒有，我們是將增加再加上留任減少後所做的數字推估。"],["劉委員建國：所以在增加跟減少之後，每年要增加將近1萬個護理人力投入職場裡面，對不對？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：是、是、是。"],["劉委員建國：好。","請部長多多注意這件事情好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謝謝第一個我首先要"},{"start":73.457,"end":91.813,"text":"聲明的就是說我們雖然目標是在當進入WHO甚至WHO當Observer但是如果碰觸政治的壓力我們也不要灰心喪志我們還有很多事情可以來照顧國人的健康也很多事情我們可以來幫助世界的人民這些都不要放棄"},{"start":92.714,"end":108.497,"text":"我們目前所做的就是一步一步在努力這件事情而每一次的努力的成果就是一個關鍵一個小成功那等這個累積以後自然就有機會會水到其成這是我的理念第一個第二個"},{"start":109.687,"end":138.449,"text":"第2個我覺得我們當然不能說固守於過去的做法要結合更多的力量比如說我常常在講因為我們的醫衛團體臺灣的醫衛團體至少有100個這每100個都是非常強的跟國際有做連結這些未來怎麼樣來做強大的一個結合的力量今天的委員也有形容到說我們因為專家可能很多有的國家是如果他去的話會"},{"start":140.031,"end":153.111,"text":"大家尊敬他會有很大的力量這些我們也都要評估第三個我覺得培養更年輕的國際人才也是我們政府要做的責任我想大概"},{"start":156,"end":180.007,"text":"這幾個來努力但是我還是要跟國會勉勵大家我們一定要團結然後每一個努力都是未來成功的關節每一個努力都是有豐碩的果實而不是一個可能受到政治力量的一個目標在那邊目前好像還達不到但是其實我們的努力我們已經享受到豐碩的成果謝謝"},{"start":182.427,"end":205.037,"text":"部長,我就簡單讓你說明清楚,但是從後面的這個人才的培訓坦白講,樣稱也不是一朝一夕就可以完成,對不對?那我一直特別強調的主題是說在你這個未來的四年,有可能更久嘛但是我們先講第一個階段,就是未來這四年的時候要怎麼如何可以達標,達到這個目標嘛那不過部長剛剛答覆我基本上是沒有針對我的問題來做答覆,但是"},{"start":207.878,"end":230.96,"text":"鼓勵國人不要放棄我們一起努力跟所有的這個這個醫界跟所有的醫治團體大家共同一起來發聲連結到世界各地的比較這個尖端精英的醫療的這些人士來讓台灣的能見度可以更高讓台灣的這樣的衛生醫療的領域可以持續的往前去領先"},{"start":231.48,"end":254.317,"text":"我覺得當然也是慢慢的去累積一點一滴的小小成果應該是誠如部長講的這樣的一個理念但是我還是希望有一個比較具體的我是不是在這邊可以具體建議部長你可以看到最近在台北辦的沸沸揚揚的國際電腦展全世界科技的精英臺灣重要的科技龍頭"},{"start":260.415,"end":280.179,"text":"臺灣就是一個全世界在AI在科技非常重要、重中之重的一個國家。我們的能見度打開了。我們讓全世界看到臺灣在這一塊的實力是這麼堅強。我們也無需擔憂中共透過任何政治力量的管道去打壓我們。"},{"start":281.459,"end":310.111,"text":"他們的醫療秩序非常的進步、先進昨天我們又通過再生醫療雙環等等等那AI未來絕對要跟醫療連結到一定的緊密的程度所以我才會特別希望部長你累積過去這麼多的經驗這麼多的職務應該是不是有這個機會更有一個願景更有一個規劃也讓全世界的醫療重要的人數剛才成旅所講的"},{"start":311.144,"end":325.254,"text":"舉足輕重的是可以時不時的來到我們台灣參加任何的一個論壇還是所謂的尖端醫療AI醫療的這樣的一個相關的一個國際的一個會議"},{"start":328.596,"end":350.116,"text":"我覺得這個樣子的情況之下或許也會讓世界衛生組織寡慕相看或許我們舉辦了相關的這些醫療公衛的論壇也會在功能上甚至超越過世界衛生組織所以我才想說部長有沒有這樣的雄心壯志再來我拜讀到賴總統的"},{"start":351.944,"end":376.591,"text":"當天就職的演說．也拜託行政院．我們院長卓院長的施政報告．我覺得打造一個AI的導入國家．打造一個科技進步的國家．打造一個創新．就像邱副長說．今天導入相關委員所講的．努力到80%一直沒有辦法再往上衝的時候．那可能就是要有更有智慧的．更創新的這樣的一個思維．"},{"start":377.375,"end":403.432,"text":"所以我建立這樣一個創新的思維就要兼具具體的做法讓全世界的頂端的尖端的醫療的產業醫療的人才時不時的可以來聚集在臺灣這一個進步科技進步醫療進步的這個國家我們一起努力的為世界的衛生醫療為世界連結這個醫療跟科技結合最緊密的"},{"start":404.192,"end":430.917,"text":"這樣的一個最有機會的一個國家我們可以朝這個方向來做努力,部長可以嗎?非常好,委員的指示非常著見我覺得我們國家就是應該要往這方面努力那在醫療衛生方面其實我剛剛有跟委員報告過就是很多很多的團體其實都有請重要級正重要級的都是世界主席來的所以幾乎所有的專業團體的不管外科、內科"},{"start":432.117,"end":450.168,"text":"加一科、副產科幾乎每年他們的主席世界主席都會到臺灣來演講的機會非常多另外衛福部本身在11月每年也都辦有全球的健康論壇幾乎把全友好國家的我今天這次去40幾場每場都遞邀請函"},{"start":453.31,"end":479.874,"text":"給部長那當然不一定大家會來那就是這個也是盛況都是蠻盛況的也展示我們臺灣在衛生的國力那至於是AI或相關這個各方面的人才我覺得我們要集合起來對所以我我特別委員的指示這樣來做不要說指示我只是特別跟部長建議我們可以有立即性的具體的做法當然這不是部長一個人就可以承擔起來但是"},{"start":480.354,"end":480.374,"text":"〔廣告〕"},{"start":502.077,"end":519.014,"text":"第一年、第二年、第三年我們會越見成熟就不怕任何打壓、任何政治上的干擾的行為我覺得這給部長做最好的一個建議跟參考好不好這是一件事情第二件事情就曾女所講的人才的養成跟培育非常重要我要請趙復師上來一下齁"},{"start":521.076,"end":542.99,"text":"我最後的三分鐘拜託主席再給我把這個事情講完那一天女士來我特別跟她講社工能力社工能力的部署已經非常的嚴重未來的五年幾乎可能不到需求的百分之八、百分之七新比士這麼大的需求就不到百分之七未來五年還是這個樣子那現在護理界不管是護師、護理師還是護士"},{"start":546.691,"end":568.536,"text":"這個說把病床減量關起來就會揮空穴來風也不是現今才發生的事情當然市長有特別的做相關的說明但實際上跟市長說明的落差值是非常大我甚至可以馬上提供雲縣的區域醫院在幾年前就關了百分之三十以上只不過是沒有見報而已"},{"start":569.756,"end":587.844,"text":"只不過是不願意說出來而已當人才、護理人力這麼欠缺的情況之下如果我們沒有求新求變我們沒有像邱部長所講的有創新的思維創新的政策我跟你講你的人數還是會持續降下來因為我們面對到職場的環境"},{"start":589.625,"end":589.725,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":608.616,"end":631.45,"text":"去做這樣的解決你這個人力方還是一樣沒辦法解決你可以看我的圖表齁這個已經每況愈下114年63.44、111年63.17、112年63在100年的時候我要求處理要跟你們調相關資料你們竟然跟我講沒有那時候是跟幾位委員有共同提案改善護理環境提升護理待遇當時的衛生署編了10億"},{"start":634.612,"end":659.85,"text":"因為10億分散給這些區議院、地區議院、醫學中心結果拿去買制服辦運動會完全沒有用在護理人員身上隔年才再增加20億這幾年不要說夜班的加班會不要說未來的日班的相關的津貼這幾年投入護理界我們公部門編了多少預算市長你比我更清楚但是我絕對支持"},{"start":661.038,"end":689.416,"text":"但是投入這麼多的預算的情況之下讓護理人員的職業率持續下降你該當何罪你有什麼新的創新的方式就你部長所講的你要回應啊你要說明清楚啊好謝謝委員那整個現在臺灣的護理人力的問題是在於他留不住量上面是主要的問題是留不住那就是職場環境的改善是重要的"},{"start":689.963,"end":703.199,"text":"我們改善了10多年我們投入這麼多的預算還是在講職場環境要改善是那我們在去年在行政院已經有得到這個核定那有12項的計畫那不管是從人才的這個增加10%的培育"},{"start":708.188,"end":729.637,"text":"以及職場環境的改善跟薪資的改善有12項策略那這12項策略目前已經有40億在做一個這個金費已經得到這個支持跟也開始在運用了那目前我們還有三項計畫是中長程的就是現在4月也提到行政院如果核定完之後我們也會預期效益就是增加10%嘛對不對"},{"start":730.737,"end":730.917,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":745.458,"end":745.818,"text":"委員會主席劉建國"},{"start":765.987,"end":766.487,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":796.128,"end":807.836,"text":"積極努力。積極努力。那我們現在就要來檢視了嘛。如果現在這些相關的計畫跟經費都到位了吧?部分到位,部分在爭取中。"},{"start":808.51,"end":808.55,"text":"市長,市長"},{"start":828.174,"end":843.628,"text":"基本上全部都啟動了啦那經費的部分有兩項兩項已經到位嘛那其他的還有三項目前在爭取經費那有的不是直接由我們來公務預算的也開始比如說公職護理師的比例增加啦"},{"start":844.288,"end":872.848,"text":"或是這個三方互併比的標準的訂定跟推動十二項的這個這個指標這個這個這個這個政策基本上都啟動了嘛對對不對好啊所以預期到2031年可以增加護理人力進入到職場增加到五萬五千人嘛是不是這樣是好那我們明年就可以來檢視囉你的五萬五除以從2025開始嘛對不對那等同就是一年要將近一萬嘛沒有錯吧"},{"start":874.852,"end":895.768,"text":"對,但是他的這個我們重點在於他每年有流失的就沒有進來跟流失的這個8000個人裡面我們希望每年能夠多增加這個5成我現在跟你講的我請教你的就是你增加的你不要再跟我講說你沒有扣掉流失的喔你不能跟我打呼這種無影響的事情喔"},{"start":897.278,"end":914.189,"text":"﹗"},{"start":914.862,"end":932.656,"text":"所以增加跟減少每年要將近增加一萬的護理人力投入到職場裡面嘛對不對?是是是好請部長多多注意這件事情好不好不管社工不管護理人力好謝謝好我們會跟相關的專業團體也共同來原理更好的方案好謝謝好謝謝劉建國委員接下來請洪森"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}