{"error":false,"id":["153708"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153708,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153708","日期":"2024-06-06","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-31","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":31,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-06T10:27:22+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-06T10:41:12+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:50","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5faea84646be284b5d6a1f14e6772be7c8282b1d5b897dd1c1c0234b0a221b0dd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:27:22 - 10:41:12","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。【本案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":517,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時27分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請部長跟司法院的刑事廳廳長。"],["主席：請鄭部長和李廳長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。今天針對通保法的修正，可以說是我們在科技偵查法律授權非常重要的一環，不過因為昨天就已經有民間司改團體聲明，說通保法侵害隱私、資訊自主，當然我看到民間司改會有這樣的聲明，我有點驚訝，所以我就必須要具體地看，通保法草案的侵害隱私跟資訊自主指的到底是什麼，我們等一下進一步地來說明。","不過昨天基層檢察官團體看到民間司改會的聲明，顯然是非常地憤怒，因為我很少看到我們基層檢察官用這麼重的詞，要他們停止禍害國家，這樣繼續搞下去是形同保護詐團。基層檢察官的聲明，部長有沒有看過？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有看過。"],["黃委員國昌：認不認同？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個反映就是基層檢察官在辦案的困境。"],["黃委員國昌：是啊，基層檢察官的心聲，部長認不認同？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個的確是反映事實面的一些偵辦困境。"],["黃委員國昌：好。我們具體來看，因為我不喜歡討論抽象的問題，用形容詞形容來形容去，一點意義都沒有，我們具體地看，這次通保法的修正是不是真的有去侵害人權的部分，還是在打擊犯罪兼顧保障人權的前提下所必要。","我想這件事情要回顧，在去年夏天的時候，非常多，包括現在已經當政委的臺大法律系的教授林明昕，還有很多臺大跟中研院的學者就說，應該要立法授權設備端的通訊監察跟網路流量紀錄，理由講得非常清楚，但設備端的通訊監察也就是所謂的小木馬，大木馬、小木馬，部長分得清楚嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：分得清楚嘛，我們這次連小木馬都沒有放進來，就是擔心這一步如果跨出去了，我們對於有關通訊監察資料相關目前現有機制的保障是不是能夠做得充足，有很多人很擔心啊，所以最後你們草案也不敢把設備端的通訊監察放進來，我這樣說對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關小木馬這個部分，原來的草案部分因為各界有人權侵略這樣的聲音，所以這部分我們就拿掉了。"],["黃委員國昌：德國的刑事訴訟法有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：德國刑事訴訟法有。"],["黃委員國昌：有嘛，我們看外國的立法例，因為臺灣在現行執行面上面的資訊控管，大家沒有信心，所以這一步，從保護國家安全的角度來講，我認同學者他們所提出來的呼籲有必要，但現實上的執行機制大家很擔心，所以連行政部門這一次都不敢提，導致我們這次通保法其實只有修網路流量紀錄，而我們要調取網路流量紀錄這件事情為什麼必要？2002年8月裴洛西訪臺的時候，我們關鍵基礎設施遭到駭客攻擊，針對這種駭客攻擊，如果要進一步追查，網路流量紀錄有沒有必要性？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有。"],["黃委員國昌：有嘛。好，再來，我們在2020年年底的時候，突然有人在網路上面散播恐嚇的訊息，說要血染臺灣，那個時候可以破案最重要的關鍵，是不是一類電信他們在抽樣的時候剛好有留網路流量紀錄，實際上偵辦的時候是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這個有。"],["黃委員國昌：當初如果沒有留這個網路流量紀錄的話，這個案子可以破案嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有流量紀錄的話，可以讓我們這個破案取得……"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們就進一步來看，但問題是網路流量紀錄的修法躺在行政院躺了非常多年，今天終於放到檯面上，針對網路流量紀錄，我們是不是跟通訊的紀錄一樣，到目前為止是採取法官保留？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，是法官保留。"],["黃委員國昌：是採取法官保留嘛，這件事情要講清楚啊，由法官在最後把關，網路流量紀錄事實上對於個人資訊，比起通訊的內容，所謂通訊的內容是，我今天打個電話給部長，結果我手機被監聽了，我們兩個講什麼話全部都會被聽到，對吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，那個是監聽的內容，流量……"],["黃委員國昌：就有關於監聽的部分是不是也是法官保留？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是因為它對隱私侵害比較大，所以一定要法官保留。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛。那以網路流量紀錄跟通訊的內容，哪一個對個人隱私權的侵害比較強？"],["鄭部長銘謙：通訊內容。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛。所以如果我們第一步邁出去的時候，就針對網路流量紀錄的部分，我們還是採取法官保留嘛！但有另外一件事情，大家比較擔心的就是通訊使用者的資料，這支手機是屬於誰的、住在哪裡，這個是屬於個人資料的部分，我們目前通保法的規定是不是採取法官保留？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前是。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！為什麼我們提了草案？我們採取檢察官保留，你們現在一步從法官保留跳到什麼？司法警察官也可以，所以大家會擔心嘛！如果我們這一步不要邁得這麼大步，在兼顧人權保障的情況之下採取檢察官保留，這樣的立場部長支不支持？我問過很多基層檢察官，他們說通訊者的資料，如果這一步不要邁得這麼大，直接授權給警察，採取檢察官保留，他們認為在辦案的實務上是可以的，可以兼顧人權保障跟辦案實際的需求，但現在行政院院版這一步邁得非常地大，直接到給警察了。就這個部分，如果採取檢察官保留，法務部的立場贊不贊成？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是支持行政院版。"],["黃委員國昌：所以不贊成採取檢察官保留？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個部分就是人頭門號非常多，要迅速調閱，如果他還要找檢察官，也人力……"],["黃委員國昌：不會啊！如果這種大型的詐欺犯罪、人頭門號，基本上都是報檢察官指揮在辦案啊！怎麼會是警察在沒有檢察官統一指揮的情況之下，像無頭蒼蠅一樣去辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，重大案件報檢察官指揮，我想這部分是純粹檢察官的主導，如果是一般案件，主要考慮到人頭帳戶非常多，如果每一件都找檢察官，檢察官的整個人力負荷可能會比較吃緊。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啦！這個可能會牽涉到人權保障跟打擊犯罪中間的平衡點嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我問過非常多的檢察官，他們都贊成，不過部長支持行政院版的立場，沒關係，我們到委員會審查時進一步講。我支持打擊犯罪，就像我今天提案說明的一樣，我們不可以讓壞人精神抖擻，結果好人累得跟狗一樣；然後那些壞人吃香喝辣，結果我們辛苦的基層檢警在後面苦苦追趕。這我絕對支持，但在另外一方面，如果有不肖的檢警跟犯罪集團勾結的話，這件事情絕對不能容忍，一定要嚴懲到底、嚴肅地追辦啦！部長同不同意？"],["鄭部長銘謙：同意，目前就是這樣做了。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們繼續來看，郭哲敏洗錢上百億的，88會館的主人，之前你們前任的法務部怎麼縱放的？郭哲敏跑掉喔！檢察官去過他的招待所，結果你們前一任的法務部長軟趴趴啊！問他什麼時候要追究檢察官的責任，推三阻四的，結果不只是郭哲敏，我發現臺灣很奇怪啊！洗錢洗越多的、有招待所的檢警關係都很好啊！郭哲敏拖了快一年才抓回來，現在換涂誠文，涂誠文在去年11月檢方發動搜索的時候，他竟然跑了，他們兩個有什麼共通之處？涂誠文也有設招待所，檢察官也去過啊！警察也去過啊！到現在人還沒有抓回來。","我要問，就郭哲敏的案子，檢察官可以一邊限制出境，一邊放人嗎？郭哲敏的案子來看一下，2022年3月到11月都已經禁管、限制出境出海喔！結果他18號、26號要出境的時候，海關通知檢察官，檢察官說放人，這樣辦案正常嗎？請教部長，您當過檢察長，對犯罪偵查實務應該非常熟悉，我搞不懂，檢察官一方面限制出境出海，一方面放人，結果放人的檢察官去過郭哲敏的招待所，這是什麼跟什麼啊！這種事情不需要嚴肅檢討嗎？來，請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官那部分監察院也談了，現在也是移送到懲戒法院，在審理中了。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！部長，你不會覺得很諷刺嗎？當初我們相信法務部、相信檢察官評鑑委員會，結果兩個跟檢察官最有關係的軟趴趴，反而現在是最不受社會信任的監察院最後把他彈劾了，您不會覺得很諷刺嗎？","除了這個以外，我們再繼續往下看，怎麼這麼巧，涂誠文，請部長仔細看一下他的犯罪歷程，2019年的時候檢警開始偵辦他地下匯兌及洗錢罪嫌，2020年7月檢警到他私人的招待所，你光看這個時序就會覺得匪夷所思啊！一個在被調查地下匯兌跟洗錢的人，我們的檢察官跟警察還呼朋引伴到他的招待所去，可以這樣搞喔！結果等到要對他執行搜索、拘提的時候，他已經跑了，怎麼跑的？有沒有內線消息？怎麼這麼厲害，又跑了！這件事情法務部偵辦的進度如何？跟大家說明一下，拖很久了啦！拖很久了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：北檢還在偵辦中。"],["黃委員國昌：所以要偵辦多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們就尊重檢察官的……"],["黃委員國昌：我們當然尊重檢察官嘛！我們現在就是要增加檢察官辦案的能量，希望他們把壞人一網打盡，所以我們現在願意在這邊授權給檢察官更大的權力去做犯罪的偵查。但我要講另外一件事情，我要講的是另外一件事情，當這麼離譜的狀況出現的時候，法務部就躲在檢察官個案偵查後面，有沒有一個基本的態度啊？所謂基本的態度是，這種行為絕不允許，法務部的立場絕不寬貸、嚴懲嚴辦，這樣的立場部長可不可以公開宣誓？"],["鄭部長銘謙：以法務部的立場，我們是不允許所有的檢察官及辦案人員在偵辦個案時有接受招待的情形，我想這部分……"],["黃委員國昌：就有了啊！就有了啊！問題是有了以後，你們的態度是什麼嘛！你們的立場是什麼嘛！你們具體的作為是什麼嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會責請臺高檢署再來做瞭解、調查。"],["黃委員國昌：這個案子我會持續地看，第一個，涂誠文什麼時候抓回來？第二個，他怎麼跑的？我們都尊重檢察官的偵辦，但是不要以為新聞熱度過了，偵辦一年、兩年、三年、四年，無疾而終、石沉大海，這個案子會石沉大海嗎？會不會石沉大海？涂誠文抓得回來嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們努力。"],["黃委員國昌：當初怎麼跑的？洗錢上百億耶！"],["主席：謝謝……"],["黃委員國昌：洗錢上百億耶！"],["主席：那個……"],["黃委員國昌：我們在修洗錢防制法、在修科技偵查的授權，我們就是希望落實到具體個案的時候，這種離譜的狀況不要發生嘛！新的部長，新的氣象，我希望部長硬起來啊！讓全國人民對我們檢調的偵辦是有信心的，嚴懲犯罪、打擊不法，特別是這種洗錢上百億的大亨，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們努力。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝部長、謝謝廳長。"],["主席（陳委員俊宇代）：下一位請鍾佳濱召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-31","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","林思銘","羅智強","沈伯洋","吳思瑤","陳冠廷","翁曉玲","吳宗憲"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)行政院函請審議「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