{"error":false,"id":["153724"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153724,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153724","日期":"2024-06-06","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-16","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":16,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-06T11:12:55+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-06T11:23:50+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:55","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5e0a993bbdf9505c42248f66a23a11b53ee56b966b91e1130dad8ba2f965d2ad25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:12:55 - 11:23:50","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":686,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時12分）謝謝主席，請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：王委員早。"],["王委員世堅：總裁，辛苦了！"],["楊總裁金龍：哪裡，謝謝你，謝謝你鼓勵。"],["王委員世堅：從去年8月財政部同意了新青安房貸以後，將近七、八個月來，臺灣從北到南房價的飆漲已經飆漲到離譜的地步了，我相信總裁你看在眼裡應該非常清楚。房價繼續飆漲，光是臺北市，臺北市一項5月份的統計，我們臺北市的房價平均高達97萬5,500啦，天啊！這是天文數字就對了。","過去說到退休金，大家奉公守法一輩子，領個退休金400、500萬，大概照現在的房價，在臺北市等於買個4、5坪，買一間廁所就對啦！你一輩子的辛勞，到最後剩的那些退休金在臺北市買一間廁所，天啊！這是荒唐離譜到極點！當然這牽涉到我們臺幣是否貶值，長期以來我們央行控制住臺幣匯率以及利息的部分。所以我是建議總裁，在第二次貴行的理監事會議，你們是不是該慎重考慮應該適度調升利息了，你覺得呢？你看，過去這一、兩年來，我們調升利息，有！都一點點、一點點，一碼、一碼，過去你們阻止利率的調升，當然你們考慮到很多因素。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["王委員世堅：但是我是覺得，尤其新青安貸款下去之後，房市這樣漲，過去我們都說升息跟房價沒有必然的關係，但是，總裁，你看一下這個房貸利率與房價的關係圖。我做了這個圖很清楚，房價跟利率的關係，事實上，利率越低、房價越高，他們成反比，這非常清楚的。這個統計是統計了2000年到2018年，19年的期間內，這個統計很清楚看得到的，2000年當時將近7%的房貸利率，一路下來，2000年那時候的房價漲幅跟現在利率來到這麼低，來到1.5%的時候，房價漲幅是高達295%，這是非常清楚的！所以，是不是在這次你們的理監事會議應該討論一下，針對升息你的看法呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我很簡單的跟委員報告，基本上央行的利率是針對通膨，沒有錯！你說央行嚴重輕忽了我們的通膨，但是我跟委員報告，事實上，從2008年、2009年以來我們的通膨非常低，到2019年之前，2019、2018年，就是在COVID-19之前，我們的通膨率平均大概不到1%。"],["王委員世堅：這3年突破警戒是事實。"],["楊總裁金龍：對嘛！對嘛！所以你說是長期，但事實上是沒有啊！就是從2008年……"],["王委員世堅：你在跟我定義什麼叫做長期是不是？我在跟你講現在、這3年！"],["楊總裁金龍：現在……"],["王委員世堅：你在跟我講定義是不是？什麼叫做長期？你說我的用詞寫長期，你不爽，是這樣嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告……"],["王委員世堅：我客氣的在跟你談事情。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！委員……"],["王委員世堅：你在跟我講字義上……"],["楊總裁金龍：不是、不是，委員，不好意思啦！"],["王委員世堅：3年不叫做長期，什麼叫做長期？民眾的生活，1年365天、3年1,095天，那不是長期嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：報告委員，抱歉啦！抱歉啦！我讓委員這樣……"],["王委員世堅：大家冷靜的討論事情……"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是。"],["王委員世堅：你怎麼來、我怎麼去。"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！"],["王委員世堅：我的人很清楚，我這麼客氣的問你，因為你是這部分的專家……"],["楊總裁金龍：抱歉。"],["王委員世堅：我認為房價跟利率、跟匯率能夠控制，其實全賴央行。"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是，委員，抱歉啦！委員，抱歉！我跟委員報告……"],["王委員世堅：我光跟你講一樣，你沒有去……"],["楊總裁金龍：會、會、會……"],["王委員世堅：去年8月財政部新青安貸款通過的時候，你們也沒有阻止啊！他們也沒聽你們的話，不是嗎？新青安貸款以後……"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，第一個，我對委員抱歉。第二個……"],["王委員世堅：新青安貸款以後，我先講幾個數字給你聽，新青安貸款去年4月，前五大行庫借房貸不到500億，我們講同期，今年4月同期喔！我們五大行庫借出的房貸將近1,000億元，是兩倍之多耶！這是很嚴重的事情，不是嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，很謝謝啦！"],["王委員世堅：在這件事情上面，央行眼睜睜看著財政部的作為，只是為了讓大家買房更容易，結果一放鬆就搞成這樣，本席現在是問你如何收拾殘局？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，第一個，6月13日的理監事會，我們會討論這個議題。抱歉，委員，讓你不高興，我真的是抱歉。但是我也要向委員報告，我們會在下一次的理監事會討論委員所關心的議題。"],["王委員世堅：你們認為經濟成長亮眼，臺幣貶值幅度有限，升息打房不利出口，對於這些議題，你們有自己的看法，但是本席希望你們在討論時，方向是不是可以改變？限制房貸成數，總成數是不是不要超過八成五？或者例如應該以升息來打房，這個是不是應該做了？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，委員說的沒有錯啦！"],["王委員世堅：新青安貸款實施了8、9個月，你們應該做一些複審的動作，例如有的人假借新青安貸款炒房，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，對啦！"],["王委員世堅：他等於多買了一些房子出租或做其他營利，不是這樣嗎？這個部分我們要去複審，不對嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！委員關心的沒有錯，只是我剛才的表達讓委員誤解。"],["王委員世堅：沒關係啦！我生氣3秒鐘就過了啦！那個沒關係，我經常生氣3秒鐘。"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！委員分析的沒有錯，不過我也可以向委員報告，6月13日的時候，我們的理監事會會就房地產的議題討論，請委員接受這個說明。"],["王委員世堅：因為時間有限，最後是本席沒有放上來的這個表格，前十大嚴重貸款負債比例的名單，這個名單交給你，包括他們貸款的金額。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝啦！謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：你看一下，已經嚴重到這個程度，士林開發、新潤建設、亞昕建設，這些負債比都過高，只因為什麼？只因為利率低，所以他們就大量向銀行借錢囤房、買土地，這樣反而不利於無殼族，未來我們的青年朋友們要買房的時候，房價不但居高不下，而且還節節上升。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，謝謝你啦！你提供我們的這些數據，我們來深入瞭解，謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：因為照現在這個比例來說，銀行等於沒有風險控管可言，你們是銀行中的銀行，你們才有辦法控管所有的銀行，讓他們遵守該有的財政紀律。好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，委員，謝謝你的指教。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝啦！抱歉。"],["主席（伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員代）：謝謝王世堅委員，請總裁回座。接下來請召委羅明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","林楚茵","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1135801_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.79034375,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.09409375,"end":2.2415937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.2415937500000003,"end":2.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.3890937500000002,"end":3.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.40596875,"end":4.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.53659375,"end":5.0934687499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.19471875,"end":5.920343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.337218750000002,"end":17.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.555968750000002,"end":16.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.85534375,"end":18.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.504718750000002,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.20909375,"end":24.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.938468750000002,"end":25.613468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.676593750000002,"end":29.140343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.74784375,"end":30.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.945968750000002,"end":32.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.30846875,"end":34.759718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.36721875,"end":42.353468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.53909375,"end":42.758468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.674093750000004,"end":43.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.65284375,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.69909375,"end":48.377843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.799718750000004,"end":48.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.95159375,"end":50.554718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.837218750000005,"end":52.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.782218750000006,"end":72.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.96471875,"end":77.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.65596875,"end":79.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.10284375,"end":81.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.89159375,"end":82.75221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.92096875,"end":83.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.33846875,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.43471875,"end":90.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.34596875000001,"end":90.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.49784375,"end":91.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.76346875,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.97409375000001,"end":94.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.22721875,"end":95.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.58971875,"end":97.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.02409375,"end":99.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.93096875,"end":102.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.39034375,"end":104.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.70659375000001,"end":105.58409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.80346875000001,"end":106.83284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.47409375000001,"end":109.36409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.15721875000001,"end":112.89096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.22846875,"end":113.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.98346875,"end":115.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.92846875000001,"end":117.10971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.93659375000001,"end":118.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.74659375,"end":119.01659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.42159375000001,"end":120.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.95284375000001,"end":123.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.65721875000001,"end":127.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.65659375000001,"end":140.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.66721875000002,"end":143.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.85659375,"end":156.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.81659375,"end":159.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.12846875,"end":159.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.52909375000002,"end":161.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.60909375,"end":164.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.71409375000002,"end":166.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.63784375,"end":167.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.94971875000002,"end":170.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.34596875,"end":174.0290937500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