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11:49:07","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":848,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時42分）謝謝召委，麻煩幫我邀請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["廖委員先翔：總裁好。"],["楊總裁金龍：廖委員早。"],["廖委員先翔：早安。去年2023年香港蘇富比50週年慶拍賣了一幅畫，是畢卡索的畫作「坐椅女子」，拍賣了將近1億元港幣，這件事情和總裁個人或是我個人有沒有什麼關係？我們不看工作的職權，高價的藝術品拍賣和我們有沒有什麼關係？"],["楊總裁金龍：高價藝術品？你是說和中央銀行有什麼關係嗎？"],["廖委員先翔：和我們個人啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：我總覺得拍賣的價格都很高啦！我的直覺只是這樣。"],["廖委員先翔：對，和普羅大眾沒有關係嘛！對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有關係。"],["廖委員先翔：因為我們買不起。"],["楊總裁金龍：是的。"],["廖委員先翔：我們不是它的市場受眾，和我們沒有關係，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！"],["廖委員先翔：那本席要問總裁另外一個問題，有錢人去買豪宅和我們有什麼關係？"],["楊總裁金龍：這會涉及到社會政策的問題。"],["廖委員先翔：對，向總裁報告一下我的理論，絕對有關係。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["廖委員先翔：因為我們限縮豪宅的信用條件，導致很多人可能就不去買超過一定單價的房屋，對不對？因為我們這個門檻設立之後，他不想當冤大頭，所以他不想去買了，但他還是有買房屋的需求，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["廖委員先翔：所以他就往下找，原本他是買高單價的房屋，和一般民眾的購屋需求不同，結果把高單價購屋需求這些人往下擠之後，和一般的市民大眾，買一般的、平價房子的人，變成是同一個市場，造成這個市場的競爭變大了，也造成一些原本低單價、中單價的房屋，因為潛在客群變多了或者客群變成有錢人了，結果房價上升。這樣的理論，總裁覺得有沒有幾分道理？"],["楊總裁金龍：我是第一次聽到這樣的說法，雖然是第一次，但是好像也有道理。確實，我誠實的向委員報告，我們沒有這樣的資訊，也許我們可以來掌握看看，真的是因為豪宅這個部分受到限制，因而造成這樣的狀況嗎？為什麼我們要對豪宅的部分做信用管制？因為豪宅基本上比較risky，風險比較大，為什麼？因為它在大漲大跌的時候，特別是大跌的時候，它比較illiquidity，流動性比較差。","但問題是我們的豪宅基本上大部分都是那些有錢人在買，所以我們也覺得雖然做了這樣的管制，但是好像也沒有多大的效果，為什麼？因為臺灣有錢的人很多，雖然我們對信用做某些管制，但是你看看，很多豪宅都是用現金買賣。"],["廖委員先翔：總裁，我們俗稱的豪宅，也就是高價的房屋，這幾年的交易面確實急縮，應該沒錯嘛！這應該是有客觀的事實，原本交易那些豪宅的人跑去哪裡了？他們是完全不買房子嗎？或許有部分的人就不買了，或許有些人是往下尋求他覺得合理的價格。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我說委員這個資訊是我第一次聽到，我們來瞭解看看內政部有沒有這樣的資訊，包括銀行、聯徵中心有沒有這樣的資訊，我們來瞭解看看。"],["廖委員先翔：今天會問總裁這個問題，最主要是因為昨天的新聞，總裁應該很清楚，6月可能要針對高單價房屋的門檻進行調降。"],["楊總裁金龍：是的。"],["廖委員先翔：尤其是這幾年房屋單價不斷提高，導致房屋越來越小，因為越來越容易達到所謂的豪宅門檻，所以所有的建商都把坪數往下降，因為單價上升了，他們只能降坪數。現在市場上供應的房屋，到底有沒有符合我們基本的人權？一家四口需要多大的室內空間？假設在臺北市，公設百分之三十幾的情況下，我們只是要尋求一個基本的、合理的、有人權的居住空間，結果就達到豪宅的門檻。所以當這個金額降到太低的時候，就本席看來，其實也是剝奪一般民眾尋求合理、有尊嚴居住空間的權利，是吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上廖委員說的這個道理，我是第一次聽到，但是我覺得就某種程度來說，好像滿有道理的。我也承認，我們沒有掌握到這些資訊，請容許我們花比較多的時間，讓這些單位提供我們這些資料以後，再來做一些檢討，這樣可以……"],["廖委員先翔：是。本席認為我們的政策一定都是為了民眾好，我相信大家的立意都是這樣。"],["楊總裁金龍：那是當然的。"],["廖委員先翔：只是我希望你們在訂定政策的時候，例如打豪宅，聽起來是很爽，可以多課點稅，反正又課不到我們，對不對？但是我們必須思考它後續帶來的漣漪，會不會影響到普羅大眾。所以本席剛才提到兩點，第一個，就是購買豪宅的客群，到底會不會因為他們的移動，波及到一般民眾。"],["楊總裁金龍：壓擠到這邊。"],["廖委員先翔：對，一般的民眾。第二個是我們的人均所應該賦予的，有尊嚴的居住空間，到底會不會因為這個門檻降低了，變成每個人都是住豪宅，這也是我們需要去思考的另外一個問題，這兩個問題再麻煩總裁思考一下，以上提供一些淺見，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：好的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","林楚茵","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1135801_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.06846875,"end":5.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.32534375,"end":7.236593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.52284375,"end":14.931593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.640343750000003,"end":19.977218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.500343750000003,"end":23.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.99346875,"end":24.516593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.567218750000002,"end":38.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.70909375,"end":34.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.95721875,"end":44.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.85534375,"end":44.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.85096875,"end":55.431593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.02659375,"end":67.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.549718750000004,"end":55.634093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.18659375,"end":58.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.05971875,"end":60.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.38846875,"end":62.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.299718750000004,"end":62.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.65409375,"end":63.41346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.767843750000004,"end":63.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.78471875,"end":63.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.80159375,"end":64.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.09221875,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.02409375,"end":71.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.22659375,"end":72.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.06596875000001,"end":76.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.86284375000001,"end":84.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.48284375,"end":94.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.23721875000001,"end":84.45659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.54784375000001,"end":94.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.88534375,"end":94.98659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.98659375000001,"end":95.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.27346875,"end":97.72034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.78784375000001,"end":98.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEA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有這樣的一個資訊所以呢也許我們來掌握看看可能就是說是真的就是說豪宅的這個部分因為就我們了解了就是說我們都認為就是說對於豪宅為什麼我們對豪宅要對他那信用管制因為豪宅基本上呢他比較risky"},{"start":190.049,"end":191.491,"text":"但是問題是在於就是說我們的豪宅基本上大部分都是那些有錢人"},{"start":205.866,"end":208.308,"text":"總裁最近在我們豪宅這幾年我們俗稱的豪宅這幾年高價的房屋確實在交易面"},{"start":232.282,"end":249.368,"text":"有很大的急縮嗎?這應該是沒錯嗎?這應該是客觀的一個事實那原本去交易那些豪宅的人都跑去哪裡了?他是完全不買房子嗎?或許有部分的人他就不買了所以我說委員你的這個資訊是我第一次聽到那或許有些人是不是往下來尋求他認為合理的價格"},{"start":253.53,"end":258.392,"text":"總裁金龍 今天會問總裁最主要是昨天的新聞 總裁應該非常清楚 6月可能要針對高單價房屋的門檻再來調降 尤其是這幾年房屋單價不斷的提高 那房屋"},{"start":276.36,"end":304.972,"text":"越來越小那越來越容易達到了這個所謂豪宅的門檻那就導致這個大家所有的建商都把所有的坪數再往下降單價上升了他只能來降坪數那現在市場上面所供應的房屋他到底有沒有符合我們所謂所基本的人權我們一個基本的人權假設一家四口我需要多大的一個室內空間那假設我在台北市公設三十幾趴的情況下"},{"start":306.493,"end":324.635,"text":"我只是要尋求一個基本居住的一個合理的有人權的居住空間結果就達到豪宅的門檻了那所以說當我們這個金額降到太低的時候其實就我的看來其實也是剝奪了我們一般的民眾去尋求合理有尊嚴的居住空間的一個門檻"},{"start":326.837,"end":330.502,"text":"事實上,廖委員,你講的這個道理我是第一次聽到,但是我總覺得"},{"start":337.662,"end":338.503,"text":"我希望說在訂定的時候有時候不要說"},{"start":364.119,"end":388.704,"text":"打豪宅聽起來都很爽啊我聽了也很爽啊多課點稅反正又課不到我對不對但是我們必須要去思考一下他所後續帶來的聯誼會不會影響到我們的普羅大眾所以我剛剛提到的兩點第一個就是購買豪宅的客群到底會不會因為他的移動來波及一般的民眾對一般的民眾第二個是我們的人均所應該賦予的有尊嚴的居住的空間"},{"start":389.864,"end":390.064,"text":"請謝依鳳謝委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}