{"error":false,"id":["153752"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153752,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153752","日期":"2024-06-06","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-06T12:02:07+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-06T12:14:02+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:55","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5fed9f41f2bcff187b42b94709b0a08048d38369fa36eb79f11ba3abc993e12c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:02:07 - 12:14:02","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部就「台二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【合併詢答】【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":859,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時2分）謝謝主席，是不是可以麻煩有請運安會的主委，以及交通部的陳政次？"],["主席：運安會林主委，還有我們交通部陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好，延續上一次質詢的重點，也就是針對自駕車的發展，我說過讓人類的生活更美好，這樣子一個高科技的發展，我基本上是支持的。我上次質詢的重點是不要胡搞瞎搞，找一些莫名其妙的廠商，用虛偽不實的得獎紀錄來詐騙臺灣政府，莫名其妙！可惡至極！結果我們中央政府跟地方政府，全部都呆呆傻傻的，錢一直掏出去，然後給這種像詐騙集團的廠商一樣，因為它政治後台比較硬嗎？這是我上次質詢的重點。","我今天要繼續沿著另外一個層次，因為這個自駕車的實驗，在交通部的主導之下，在我國好幾個城市都有在進行。但我要問的是，你們說現在還在技術驗證的階段當中，然後在沙盒裡面實驗，這個我都聽得懂，那問題是什麼？問題是你在沙盒裡面實驗，不可以實驗出問題，什麼叫不可以實驗出問題？我跟次長報告一下，台61西濱快速道路，因為不用過路費，跟高速公路不一樣，所以有很多大貨車、大卡車，其實都是辛苦人，在送貨的時候都走台61。所以你看一下，4月13號死亡車禍；4月6號死亡車禍，5月4號死亡車禍，都是在今年喔！我只是很簡單搜尋過去的兩個月，在台61西濱快速道路出現的死亡車禍就這麼多了。","結果你們在搞自駕車計畫的時候，竟然選在台61搞，在整個計畫開始以前就很多人提醒你們，說台61車禍多，狀況複雜，大家都在質疑。結果你們還是過了，還是過了！你們在審查的整個過程當中，我要問的第一個問題是，公路總局是整個自駕車沙盒的計畫推動機關，然後你們自己，也是沙盒實驗的審查委員，自己的計畫自己審，這樣對嗎？請次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：我想跟委員報告一下，就我的瞭解，這個案子裡我們相關的招標裡頭，是有說明它要經過沙盒的實驗，而且經過審查，沙盒實驗的審查機關不是交通部，在這裡頭你可以看到是由經濟部在處理。"],["黃委員國昌：我們看一下，無人載具科技創新實驗，智慧台61公路自駕運行計畫，你們交通部公路總局的張委員舜清說的，公總在本案有雙重角色，一個是計畫推動機關，也是本案在沙盒實驗的審查委員，白紙黑字寫這樣。現在我的問題很簡單，你自己推動自己審查，可以這樣搞嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我再跟委員做說明，這個沙盒計畫的審查，本來就有邀請各機關提供委員，但是整體沙盒計畫的審查是在經濟部，所以我想這個或許是我們當時如果是審查交通部的計畫，說不定是相關委員是不是有應該要迴避的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：你講得很好，如果在審查你們自駕車無人載具的時候，你們交通部派出去的，特別是公路總局，該迴避就要迴避，怎麼會大喇喇的自己在審查會議，講這個計畫我推動的，然後這個計畫我還參與審查，我扮演雙重角色。這不是我說的欸！這你們委員自己講的，可以這樣嗎？難怪大家會質疑嘛！台61當初大家在質疑這麼危險，死亡車禍這麼多，你們在上面搞自駕車的沙盒，你們心臟會不會太大顆？","結果今年1月，真的！你們的自駕車，在台61擦撞自行車造成騎士受傷。我看到這件事情的時候，我覺得真的是佛祖有保佑，只有擦傷。但這個是一個明顯的事故，針對這個明顯的事故，對照到你們當初在台61推動的時候大家所提出來的質疑，公路總局有沒有重新檢討？還要執意這樣幹下去嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我先來說明一下，然後看局長要不要補充，原則上這台61的試辦計畫，委員剛才看到雖然是台61，但這是屬於平面路段。因為有高架以後，平面路段的交通量確實比較少，而且沿線大概都是一些漁村，所以當時才會選在這裡，而且是希望以公共運輸的方式來處理，但是這件事情……"],["黃委員國昌：所以事故不是發生了嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，這個事故發生了以後，就我了解，目前這個計畫是在暫停的階段。"],["黃委員國昌：好！你說到重點了，現在計畫是在暫停的階段嘛！"],["陳次長彥伯：是，就我的瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：暫停了以後，當然就要評估安不安全，可不可以繼續搞下去嘛！但我現在得到的資訊是什麼？我現在得到的資訊是，拿到這1億元標案的廠商，這個案子是1億對不對？對吧？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個可能要查一下，我……"],["黃委員國昌：我全部都查過啦！前兩年5,000萬，後三年5,000萬，加起來1億啦！沙盒如果不繼續，錢拿不到，所以他一定要讓沙盒繼續，後面的錢才拿得到嘛！那個廠商已經非常大喇喇的在外面講了，這個審查會議我們走過場啦！一定會過，因為不過我後面的錢拿不到。","我聽到這樣的聲稱，我非常的震驚！大家看一下，你們在跨部會台61自駕案實驗續行評估會議當中，審查委員怎麼講的，請次長仔細看，我也拜託運安會的主委，你也一起看一下，因為真的出了事，接下來就是運安會的事了。安全事故報告應該由公正專業的第三方進行調查，且安全事故報告應該上網公開。美國加州DMV所主責的自駕車上路測試也同樣要求安全事故報告要上網公開，所以這個事故的安全事故調查報告應該要重來！","我先問一下次長，現在這個事故的安全事故調查報告誰在做？"],["陳次長彥伯：我不曉得，應該是公路局在做，還是……"],["黃委員國昌：公路局自己的計畫，自己推動；然後出了事，自己做安全事故調查報告，這樣對嗎？請問運安會的主委，贊不贊成？"],["林主任委員信得：據我瞭解……"],["黃委員國昌：我們一件事一件事來，贊不贊成第17點，委員所發表的意見，安全事故調查報告應該由公正專業的第三方進行調查，主委贊成嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：如果經濟部、交通部邀請公正專業第三方進行調查的話，我們可以協助，但是重大運輸事故的調查若屬於實驗性質的事故是不在範圍內的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係啦！我知道你不希望運安會現在就扛這個鍋，但即使不是你運安會的鍋，你也要搞一個公正專業的第三方嘛！那公正專業的第三方，主委要不要承擔，我都尊重啊！你說不在你法定職權的範圍嘛！但我要請教主委的事情是，人家提出來這個意見很中肯啊！主委認不認同？"],["林主任委員信得：他提出來的意見，是他不了解運輸事故調查法裡面的規定嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：不是嘛！他只有說公正專業的第三方，人家就沒有講運安會，你不要緊張嘛！"],["林主任委員信得：對，但如果他有公正專業第三方進行調查，運安會的相關調查技術可以支援嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：好！非常好，運安會要支援嘛！次長，贊不贊成這個事故調查報告，應該由公正專業的第三方進行調查？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個我們支持。"],["黃委員國昌：你們支持，現在有這樣做嗎？現在有這樣做嗎？這個是我的問題啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：因為這裡的結論很像是希望他先提出一個安全事故調查報告……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！因為現在的調查報告荒謬的是什麼？申請拿到沙盒的人，自己在提報告，自己出事故，自己提報告，那等於是什麼？出了事故的人，自己檢討自己、自己評估自己，這是在檢討什麼？是在評估什麼？次長你剛答應了嘛！你贊成要由公正專業第三方進行調查。接下來，台61自駕車的這個計畫要不要續行下去，我們就先請公正專業的第三方來進行事故調查，次長可不可以承諾？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想這裡頭因為有一定機制在做有關沙盒實驗的評估，裡面特別提到評估的結論是，希望調查的報告應該是到一個委員會裡去討論。所以我想這個委員會裡的相關的委員，自然都會有第三方公正的人來成立。"],["黃委員國昌：好，可以，這個委員會的委員，包括這個委員會做的評估，不是申請人自己提出來的報告而已喔！申請人自己提報告，自己調查自己，那個是笑話！"],["陳次長彥伯：不會。"],["黃委員國昌：你們成立了這個小組有哪些委員？他們評估的內容是不是可以讓社會大眾知道？也提供給所有交通委員會的委員。這很重要，我已經說了喔！出了事是佛祖有保佑，所以只是擦傷。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員，這個我們來聯繫一下，我的了解，這個委員會或審查會是經濟部在召開的啦！"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係啦！你們跨部會去跟經濟部講好嘛！人命安全……"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們再建議他相關委員的審議裡頭……"],["黃委員國昌：發展自駕車道實驗，我們都贊成啦！你挑台61線之前就有人警告過了，現在真的出事啊！非同小可，要嚴肅面對啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們會嚴肅面對，至於經濟部那個委員會，希望一些比較公正專業的人士加入，這個我們來建議它。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你們打算怎麼處理？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們來建議它。"],["黃委員國昌：你們跟經濟部聯合起來，一週之內交書面報告可以嗎？最起碼讓大家知道你要怎麼處理嘛！"],["陳次長彥伯：可以，我們來……"],["黃委員國昌：可以？一個禮拜之內喔？"],["陳次長彥伯：一個禮拜會不會……我們怎麼處理會提供讓委員知道啦！好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：不要，書面提供。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，書面提供包括怎麼處理。"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜之內可以嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們要跟經濟部協商啦！"],["黃委員國昌：兩個禮拜？"],["陳次長彥伯：三個禮拜。"],["黃委員國昌：三個禮拜，好，可以。"],["陳次長彥伯：三個禮拜，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","現在請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","現在請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","林月琴","黃珊珊"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通\n部就「台二線70K 崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢【合併詢答】","agenda_id":"1135801_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.3590937499999995,"end":12.805343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.05034375,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.805343750000002,"end":17.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.94034375,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.974093750000002,"end":13.665968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.28471875,"end":24.094718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.887843750000002,"end":31.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.35096875,"end":31.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.840343750000002,"end":35.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.603468750000005,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.90659375,"end":42.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.65284375,"end":45.829718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.53846875,"end":53.929718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.385343750000004,"end":58.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.414093750000006,"end":60.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.962218750000005,"end":61.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.43471875,"end":67.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.80096875000001,"end":69.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.07909375,"end":73.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.16284375000001,"end":75.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.50846875,"end":78.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.61346875000001,"end":80.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.45284375,"end":83.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.71409375,"end":84.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.82784375,"end":86.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.24096875000001,"end":89.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.31221875,"end":91.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.72971875,"end":94.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.34096875,"end":99.42471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.91409375,"end":101.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.12471875,"end":106.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.93409375,"end":109.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.85346875,"end":110.35971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.22034375000001,"end":114.00471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.49409375,"end":119.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.67471875000001,"end":120.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.54784375000001,"end":122.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.25221875000001,"end":124.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.26034375,"end":127.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.65659375000001,"end":132.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.03096875,"end":137.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.20346875,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.16471875000002,"end":143.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.88596875000002,"end":145.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.84784375,"end":150.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.87221875,"end":155.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.87159375000002,"end":159.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.68534375000002,"end":160.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.21659375000002,"end":163.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.57909375,"end":165.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.16096875000002,"end":171.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.37534375,"end":173.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.75909375,"end":176.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.53909375,"end":178.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.14221875,"end":181.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.94346875000002,"end":183.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":184.03596875000002,"end":184.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.75721875000002,"end":186.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.76534375,"end":210.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.15596875,"end":199.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.72534375,"end":201.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.20096875000002,"end":210.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.95159375,"end":216.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.09409375,"end":220.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.00909375,"end":221.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.05971875,"end":228.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.67846875,"end":232.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.41659375,"end":236.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.36096875,"end":262.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.57221875,"end":262.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.77471875000003,"end":263.88846875},{"sp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目前是在暫停的階段好,你說的你說到重點了齁現在計畫是在暫停的階段嘛暫停了以後大家就要評估安不安全嘛可不可以繼續搞下去嘛但我現在得到的資訊是什麼?我現在得到的資訊是啊拿到這一億元標案的廠商"},{"start":387.922,"end":415.792,"text":"一億元標案嘛這個案子是一億對不對對吧這個可能要要查一下我我全部都查過啦前兩年五千萬後三年五千萬加起來一億啦沙盒如果不繼續錢拿不到所以他一定要讓沙盒進去他後面的錢才拿得到嘛那廠商已經非常大剌剌的在外面講啊這個審查會議我們走過場啊一定會過"},{"start":417.199,"end":439.077,"text":"因為不夠我後面的錢拿不到我聽到這樣的聲稱啊我非常的震驚啊來看一下你們在跨部會台61自駕案10月續型評估會議當中審查委員怎麼講的來請次長仔細看我也拜託那個運安會的主委你也一起看一下因為真的出了事哦真的出了事接下來就是運安會的事了啦"},{"start":440.319,"end":467.24,"text":"安全事故報告應該由公正專業的第三方進行調查安全事故報告應該上網公開美國加州DMV所主責的自駕車上路測試也同樣要求安全事故報告要上網公開所以這個事故的安全事故調查報告應該要重來來我先問一下次長現在這個事故的安全事故調查報告誰在做"},{"start":470.772,"end":472.014,"text":"來請運輸安全調查委員會主委"},{"start":485.115,"end":512.027,"text":"站不贊成我們一件事一件事來站不贊成第17點委員所發表的意見安全事故調查報告應該由公正專業的第三方進行調查主委贊成嗎?如果經濟部、專業部他邀請公正專業第三方進行調查的話我們可以協助但是重大運輸事故的下場會屬於實現性質的事故是不在範圍內的好沒有關係啦我知道你不希望運安會現在就扛這個鍋嘛"},{"start":513.388,"end":537.275,"text":"那即使不是你運安會的鍋你也要搞一個公正專業的第三方嘛那公正專業的第三方主委要不要承擔我都尊重啊你說不在你法定職權的範圍嘛但我要請教主委的事情是人家提出來這個意見很中肯啊主委認不認同他提出來的意見他是他不了解運輸"},{"start":539.145,"end":562.466,"text":"不是啦,他只有說公正專業的第三方,人家就沒有講運安會,你不要緊張嘛。對對對,但是如果他有公正專業的第三方進行調查的時候,運安會的相關調查技術可以支援嗎?好,非常好。運安會要支援嘛。來,次長,在不贊成這個事故調查報告應該由公正專業的第三方進行調查?這個我們支持,支持。你們支持?現在有這樣做嗎?"},{"start":565.195,"end":586.451,"text":"現在有這樣做嗎?這就是我的問題了因為現在的調查報告荒謬是什麼?申請拿到沙盒的人自己在提報告自己寫出事故自己提報告那等於是什麼?出了事故的人自己檢討自己自己評估自己是在檢討什麼?"},{"start":587.512,"end":604.086,"text":"是在評估什麼?市長你剛剛答應了嘛說你贊成要由公正專業的第三方進行調查接下來台61自駕車的這個計畫要不要續行下去我們就先請公正專業的第三方來進行事故調查市長可不可以承諾"},{"start":604.907,"end":630.009,"text":"我想委員他這裡頭因為他有一定的一個機制在這裡頭做相關的有關這個沙盒實驗的一個評估那他這裡頭特別特別提到他評估的結論是希望用那個調查的報告到這個應該是一個委員會裡頭去討論所以我想這個委員會裡頭的相關的委員自然都會有一個第三方公證人的成立這個委員會的委員包括這個委員會做的評估"},{"start":631.03,"end":654.075,"text":"不是申請人自己提出來的報告而已喔申請人自己提報告自己調查自己那個是笑話你們成立了這個小組有哪些委員他們評估的內容是不是可以讓社會大眾知道也提供給所有交通委員會的委員這是很重要我已經說了喔出了事是佛祖有保佑所以只是擦傷"},{"start":655.458,"end":676.086,"text":"委員 這個我們來聯繫啊 我來瞭解這個的委員會或這個審查會是經濟部在召開的啦沒關係啊 你們跨部會去跟經濟部講好嘛人命安全 發展自駕車要實驗 我們都贊成啦挑台61線之前就有人警告過了 現在真的出事啊"},{"start":676.866,"end":696.945,"text":"分紅小可啊要嚴肅面對啊是我們會嚴肅面對那至於說經濟部那個委員會希望一些比較公正專業的人士來加入這個我們來建議他我們來建議他你們打算怎麼處理你們跟經濟部聯合起來一週之內交書面報告可以嗎你最起碼讓大家知道你要怎麼處理嘛可以可以我們來一個禮拜之內齁"},{"start":699.633,"end":715.351,"text":"呃...一個禮拜會不會...我...我們怎麼處理來提供讓委員知道啦好不好不要書面提供啊是啊書面提供吧怎麼處理一個禮拜之內可以嗎我們要跟經濟部協商啊兩個禮拜呃...三個禮拜三個禮拜好可以三個禮拜好謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}