{"error":false,"id":["153771"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153771,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153771","日期":"2024-06-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第17次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第17次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-07T10:24:33+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-07T10:49:18+08:00","影片長度":"00:24:45","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/91386385e8f925e243fdf43a708dde6263a4d3464892865ba3b2ba3d63e11ab4dea26643c0888b925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:24:33 - 10:49:18","會議時間":"2024-06-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第17次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。 \n二、6月7日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月11日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":586,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時24分）謝謝韓院長。大家早安，我們有請卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["高金委員素梅：還有陳主計長以及原民會曾主委。"],["主席：麻煩請陳主計長備詢。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：高金委員早。"],["高金委員素梅：卓院長早安。我們這次初次見面，希望今天的30分鐘我們彼此會有非常好的互動，給彼此留下非常美好的印象，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：一定會的。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。院長，公務員應該要依法行政，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。我們先來看一下一段影片，這是有關原住民禁伐補償，我在這邊跟前行政院長的對話。","（播放影片）"],["高金委員素梅：好，看完了，很清楚對吧？原住民族禁伐補償修正案也已經在6月4號立法院三讀通過了，這是政府的法律義務支出，行政院就應該要依法來編列。禁伐補償修正草案通過之後，原民會估算每年會增加26億，6月4號禁伐補償三讀通過之前，我們在協商會上面，柯總召他要原民會在明年他們匡列的預算125億裡面自行吸收這增加的26億，當時我還有曾主委都在現場，而吳思瑤幹事長也講，他說禁伐補償增加的26億預算會排擠掉原民會的計畫性預算，受傷的將會是原住民。我認為柯總召還有吳思瑤他們的說法極為不妥，現在禁伐補償已經在立法院三讀通過了，我們應該在這裡好好的理性來討論，怎麼樣來依法編這樣的預算，院長，你應該同意吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是必須討論，而且在修法的過程中，就應該合理的討論。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝，我們討論很久了，而且你也看了上面的回應，陳前院長他其實是同意的。主計長，我要請問您，編列預算的調整原則至少應該做到效益最大化、傷害最小化，您同意吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。所以院長，有主計長這麼說，我們是不是就應該把依法增加的這26億的預算，放在3兆2,000億行政院的大水庫中來調整，而不是在原民會125億的小水池裡面來調整，這樣才不會對原住民造成傷害。院長，你應該同意我這個原則吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個要經過國家財政紀律的考量以及整個概算預算的編列，那現在已經進行到相當的程度，所以這增加出來26億的預算，應該是屬於原住民同胞們應該得到的一些照顧，所以它應該放在原民的預算裡面去執行。"],["高金委員素梅：我提醒您一下，不是照顧，我一直在講，這是憲法，因為限制人民私有財產的利用，因此應該要由法律來保障他們的權益，所以不是照顧，我要再提醒你一下，這是法律義務的支出。好，所以我以上跟你提醒的這個部分，我希望院長您回去之後真的好好考慮一下，我們怎麼樣來把這個預算，讓它如剛剛主計長講的效益最大化、傷害最小化，而且僅僅只有26億，它在所謂的3兆2,000億的大水庫裡面不會造成影響，我相信全國人民都在看立法院三讀通過的法律案……"],["卓院長榮泰：容許我跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：我們的族人同胞也在注意看這件事情，您回去好好的考慮一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：容許我跟委員報告，這是從3萬到6萬加倍的增加，整個預算加倍的增加……"],["高金委員素梅：這跟加倍增加沒有關係，這是立法院三讀通過的好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：既然是法定的義務，那應該就是對原住民的族人同胞，放在原住民相關的預算裡面去執行。"],["高金委員素梅：我不同意你的說法，非常遺憾，我希望院長你回去再考慮清楚，您的立場跟上一屆行政院長的立場還有主計長的立場是不一樣的。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有不同。"],["高金委員素梅：我會一直盯這件事情盯到底。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們願意做到……"],["高金委員素梅：全國人民都在看。"],["卓院長榮泰：我也提醒高金委員，剛剛前主計長說的是，大家允許合理討論，大家有共識合理討論。"],["高金委員素梅：對嘛！所以我現在跟你說，是在大水庫裡面，不是在原民會裡面的預算，因為我們大水庫裡面有3兆2,000億，原民會的預算只有125億……"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣可能會違背……"],["高金委員素梅：所以應該就是得要如此來做嘛，對不對？好了！院長，我們不要一開始就在這邊有爭執……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，委員，你這樣可能違背我們設立原住民族委員會的立意啦！"],["高金委員素梅：我請你回去以後好好考慮，我會盯著這件事情，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經深入考慮。"],["高金委員素梅：然後全國人民還有包括原住民的族人一定都在看這件事情。我在這邊要提醒曾主委，原民會不要再習慣給自己穿小鞋了，好不好？現在請主計長還有曾主委先回座休息，謝謝。","院長，過去新院長在這邊上任的時候，我總是會講一段歷史，希望我們都能夠以史為鑑。我待會要講的這歷史有一點點長，我希望你能夠有點耐心聽完，聽完了之後，我會留時間給你來回應，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。這個會期開議以來，為了國會改革的法案，立法院內外發生了非常多的事情，我在立法院工作了22年，我跟所有的委員都知道，法案從提案一直到通過，我們一般都是依照立法院的議事規則在運作，過去就算發生朝野攻防的情況，都還能夠依照民主的原則協商、妥協，然後在這裡表決通過；但是這次卻不一樣，看一下照片，因為在立法院席次比較少的民進黨，它在議場之內簡單、粗暴地把國會改革的法案抹黑成黑箱、反民主，抹紅成國會香港化，沒有任何證據就可以指控國會改革的法案是我們習近平要求韓院長及傅崐萁要來幹的，然後柯總召還預告立法院會發生史上最嚴重的衝突，而賴清德總統要聚集在立法院外面的青鳥群眾守護民主，柯總召又號召這些青鳥要飛到立法院來，議場外面的黑熊部隊更是直截了當地喊打喊殺，我們看一下這段影片。","（播放影片）"],["高金委員素梅：您上任第四天就準備要對立法院提覆議案，俗話說當家不鬧事，可是現在當家執政的民進黨政府卻不斷地在激化朝野的對立，發生這麼多的事情，讓我對臺灣的民主體制及憲政程序非常憂心。我認為歷史是一面鏡子，唐太宗曾經說過：「以銅為鏡，可以正衣冠；以古為鏡，可以知興替；以人為鏡，可以明得失。」而院長您是賴總統所提名的行政院長，您對賴總統上任以後的施政理念應該是最瞭解的，我讓您看一下一段影片。","（播放影片）"],["高金委員素梅：看到了嗎？賴總統在4月6日出席鄭南榕特展的開幕記者會上說了這段話。我再重複一遍，他說他要利用過去發生的種種偉大的事件來進行社會改造、國家重建，還要洗滌每一個人的人生。他的這段話讓我打了一個冷顫，聽到了非常毛骨悚然。我們看到過去8年民進黨政府經常宣傳說「有政府、會做事」，並且還組成了一個一個超前部署的國家隊，他們自稱是政績空前，而民進黨政府都把執政說得這麼出色了，為什麼賴總統還要國家重建呢？是賴總統不滿意蔡總統這8年來自稱的政績，所以才要重建國家嗎？所以才要改造社會嗎？所以才要洗滌每一個人的人生嗎？","而賴總統說的這個國家重建，讓我想起了一個歷史人物，他不但曾經高喊過國家重建，他還真的立了一個國家重建法，就是90年前、1934年1月30日，當時擔任德意志聯邦共和國的總理──阿道夫‧希特勒，他頒布了一個國家重建法，而這項法律直接取消了各聯邦的人民議會，各邦政府變成了沒有自治權、沒有自決權的行政機構，而這條法律的前言宣稱這是國會一致表決通過的，他講這句話當然沒有錯，因為那個時候德國所有的政黨基本上都被希特勒消滅掉了，只剩下納粹黨。","我們來回顧一下這段歷史，看一下很多的影片。1930年代初，希特勒所領導的納粹黨成為德國第一大黨，但是他的席次並沒有過半，而不喜歡社民黨還有共產黨的德國總統興登堡，利用納粹黨對付左派政黨，因此任命了希特勒擔任共和國總理，少數執政的納粹黨上臺之後，他的內政部長戈林就發動了5萬名納粹衝鋒隊還有黨衛隊員，以反共的名義指控、鎮壓其他在野黨。1933年2月27號，德國國會大廈發生大火，希特勒宣稱這是共產黨幹的，起火後第二天，興登堡總統馬上就簽署了保護人民和國家法令，暫停執行憲法所保障的七項公民自由權利，他們說這個法令是為了要防止共產黨危害國家暴力行為的預防措施，然後納粹黨就逮捕了四千名的共產黨人、社民黨人以及國會議員，濫捕、濫殺，包括嚴刑拷打。多年之後，希特勒任命的內政部長戈林終於講了實話，他說什麼？他說火燒國會就是他們幹的。","院長您看，反共、抹紅多麼好用啊！以前納粹黨用，現在你們民進黨還在用，好像只要貼上共產黨的標籤，就可以為所欲為，然後政治正確……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我可以回答嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：還沒，會給你時間，好嗎？但是儘管火燒國會、非法鎮壓，希特勒的納粹黨在3月5號的國會選舉當中，席次依然沒有過半，只有44%，這好像是民進黨2024年的選舉一樣，而被鎮壓的社民黨還是保持第二大黨地位，然後共產黨排名第三，大家可以看一下圖表上的席次分配。","如果希特勒只是想要鞏固他的內閣政權，其實只要聯合其他右派政黨就可以了，但是希特勒不這麼想，他要的不僅僅只是內閣，他要的是什麼？他要的是獨裁，所以他當然不願意跟在野黨做任何的妥協，於是他把左派的國會議員全部一網打盡，然後很快地通過了什麼？通過了解除人民與帝國苦難法。這個法令雖然只有短短的5個條文，卻直接把國會的立法權、預算權、締約權、修憲權全部轉移到希特勒的內閣，然後之後的法律也只能由希特勒總理起草，並且可以不同於憲法，所以也就沒有所謂違憲的問題了。德國議會的民主制度，從這個時候開始就被希特勒埋葬，德國所有一切權力全部集中到希特勒手中，很快地不到一年，希特勒頒布了國家重建法。我再講一次，國家重建法取消了各聯邦的人民議會，而各邦政府完全變成了中央的附屬行政機構，從中央到地方，希特勒的權力是一把抓，他終於實現了全面獨裁。","我剛剛講的是一段過去發生的事件，他不但改變了德國，更改變了世界，而獨裁的希特勒，從此之後開始放手發動什麼？發動他所謂的社會改造，然後用納粹的信條洗滌了每一個德國人的人生，並且發動了世界大戰。","這不僅讓我想到賴總統，剛剛我們也看到了，他說要利用過去所發生的種種偉大事件來進行社會改造、進行國家重建，他還要洗滌每一個人的人生。難道民進黨總統所謂的國家重建藍圖，就是要按照德國國會的歷史劇本來完成嗎？","我們來看一下，再回顧一下5月17號，來想一下，如果賴總統他號召的守護民主的這些青鳥，還有這些黑熊部隊，然後按照柯建銘總召他的指示，真的飛進了議場，然後也發生了柯總召所說的史上最嚴重的衝突，會不會也有一把火燒到立法院呢？而院長，您說你要依照憲法提出覆議，覆議如果沒有通過，號召守護民主的賴總統，他會不會拒絕簽署法案還有拒絕公告？而柯總召他要提釋憲，並且揚言釋憲的結果出來之前，他要凍結國會的改革法案，這樣做就是守護民主了嗎？40%民意的少數政府，要與60%的在野民意對抗，這個社會還能夠安居樂業嗎？我講的這段歷史是以前的歷史，但是這一陣子發生的這些也是事實，所以現在給你時間，我想聽聽卓院長您的想法。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，也非常佩服委員，也再次清楚聽到委員對於共產黨在二戰前希特勒主政的時候所受到的迫害，您非常清楚，我想你字眼當中對共產黨那個迫害的歷史也非常清楚，但是……"],["高金委員素梅：我講的是希特勒。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，但是您不清楚臺灣人民面對威權時代受到什麼樣的迫害。"],["高金委員素梅：我怎麼會不清楚呢？我當然清楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以賴總統所說的偉大的事件，在那個場景底下，你應該清楚他講的是什麼事件。臺灣人民一波又一波地面對威權的時候，我們在哪裡？只有那些犧牲的前輩們，他們用自己的生命跟熱血換到了今天我們可以站在這裡互相的對話、民主的對話，但是如果把他引申為希特勒那個時代的希特勒，那絕對是歷史上完全不會做這樣的牽連的。同時，也不要對青鳥的那些活動的群眾們貼標籤，他不是賴清德總統所號召來的，也不是我們所有的任何一個民進黨的人可以去號召來的，那些青鳥朋友們，他們是看到了在立法院裡面整個審查法案的過程，覺得他們身為人民的權利被剝奪了，他們看不到一個合理民主秩序跟民主程序的審查，所以他們主動地站出來了，那怎麼可以說他們是被誰所號召而來的呢？所以很多的前提，在你的歷史，時間是對的，內容很多是不對的，引申過來更有嚴重的落差。"],["高金委員素梅：講完了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我講得比較簡短。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。院長，您的高度在這邊講，我真的實在是有一點覺得好笑。當然您說以前的這些民主制度是我們有很多的前輩用他的生命犧牲換來的，我現在要講的就是所謂的特權是不是就是要國家改造，然後所謂的社會改造或者是洗滌人心，您還沒有回答我沒有關係，多數的人民……"],["卓院長榮泰：洗滌不是洗滌成為威權時代的人心，是洗滌成為一個更民主、更自由、更開放、更國際的臺灣人民的人格、國際人格。"],["高金委員素梅：所以你認為現在臺灣人民需要被洗滌啊？好遺憾，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：能夠往好的方向去發展，任何的字眼都可以來形容。"],["高金委員素梅：卓院長，多數的人民是希望看到一個跟過去8年執政不一樣的政府新氣象，可是我們看到賴總統他的就職演說讓很多人錯愕，我希望誠意溝通、人民優先的卓院長你能夠不要再讓多數人民的期待落空了，我當然更不希望90年前曾經發生過的德國歷史，因為少數人的權力慾望而痛苦地重演……"],["卓院長榮泰：這不會發生在臺灣的今天。"],["高金委員素梅：受苦的將會是人民。"],["卓院長榮泰：這不會發生在今天的臺灣。"],["高金委員素梅：院長，我再讓你回顧一下立法院審查國會改革案的那幾天，議場內的暴力橫行，看一下這很多的照片，公然掛布條指控立法委員是中共的同路人，議場外面的黑熊部隊、青鳥亂飛，然後掛看板要槍斃中共的立委。賴總統也鼓勵青鳥要守護民主，柯總召號召這些青鳥要飛進議場，並且現在還煽動什麼？煽動要罷免在野黨的立法委員，再加上最恐怖的是無所不在監控人民手機訊號的天網，而當天納粹的劇本要素都已經在這邊一一具備了。","我昨天晚上很認真地看了行政院的記者會，我感到非常悲觀，我知道行政院一定會對國會改革提出覆議，可是在記者會上的發言人還有政委提出覆議的七大理由，竟然跟我們議場之內民進黨立法委員說謊的說法還有議場外面青鳥的控訴，看一下那麼可怕的一些畫面！還有跟橫行網路的這些1450網軍的說法一致。院長，你們的高度怎麼會跟這些人的講法一樣呢？我很期待你們會講出更好的一段說辭、一段說法，但是你們的發言人還有你們的政委講的都跟立法委員、網軍，還有這一些謊話、不是事實的話都講得一模一樣……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：我必須講一下，回首看歷史，轉頭再看一下您……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們針對程序不正義……"],["高金委員素梅：院長不要打斷，我會給你時間，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。"],["高金委員素梅：我很不喜歡我們在說話的時候互相打斷，您說話的時候，我也沒有給你打斷啊！而且給你非常多的時間在這裡充分表達你的看法，所以我說話的時候，你也不要打斷，好不好？這是最基本的禮貌，好嗎？謝謝。我們回首……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果你可以給我一個段落會比較好回答，我的意思是這樣，給我一個段落。"],["高金委員素梅：我在給你段落啊！因為我講話必須段落，所以我也給你段落的回應，對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。"],["高金委員素梅：當我們回首看一下這段歷史的時候，我再回頭來看看您，我真的、真的覺得你正是站在民主的懸崖邊，我真的非常期待院長能夠以史為鑑，這個歷史不僅僅是臺灣這一段過程的歷史，它更是剛剛我說的90年前希特勒的獨裁，他用一切手段來對待人民、對待不願意合作的這些在野黨的意見，然後把國家弄得一塌糊塗，甚至於發動了全世界的戰爭，所以我在這邊希望你以史為鑑，不要鑄成大錯，好嗎？現在給您回應，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。如果一開始您說不希望有委員或是任何人用習近平來影射任何的人，那我也希望不要用希特勒來影射所有的人，這樣才公平。"],["高金委員素梅：我講的是歷史，我沒有影射。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。剛剛說很多人的講法，包括我們的發言人、政委講的話跟某些場景是一樣的，我跟委員報告，要控訴不法、要控訴程序不正義，正義之聲只會有一種，不會有兩種，所以他們講話一樣，不奇怪！"],["高金委員素梅：只有一種，行政院的職權不要干涉到立法院，立法院在這邊是合法通過了國會改革的法案，包括禁伐補償，提醒您……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果程序不正義，我們還是要努力把它平反過來。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有程序不正義……"],["卓院長榮泰：我只希望能夠有機會重新審視這個法案。"],["高金委員素梅：我們所有在立法院討論的法案，全部在立法院的網站裡面公開地跟人民報告，人民可以去看立法院裡面的網路，就會非常清楚誰在說謊、誰在這邊故意地製造混亂，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，大多數的人都看得很清楚。"],["高金委員素梅：我的時間還沒到，但是我的質詢結束了，希望您今天都會很順暢，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：感謝、謝謝，一定會的。"],["主席：謝謝高金素梅委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽的是禾作式學堂的同學們，我們掌聲歡迎，都是小孩子。歡迎你們來立法院，謝謝。","接下來請登記第2號麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":23,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-17","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","鄭天財Sra 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院長你應該同意吧是必須討論而且在修法的過程中就應該合理的討論謝謝我們討論很久了而且你也看了上面的這個回應陳前院長他其實是同意的"},{"start":153.42,"end":177.916,"text":"主計長,我要請問您,編列預算的調整原則至少應該做到效益最大化、傷害最小化,您同意吧?是。好,謝謝。所以院長,由主計長這麼說,我們是不是就應該把依法增加的這26億的預算放在3兆2000億的行政院裡面的大水庫中來調整?"},{"start":178.977,"end":207.248,"text":"而不是在原民會裡面125億的小水池裡面來調整。 這樣才不會對原住民造成傷害。 院長你應該同意我這個原則吧。 這該經過國家財政紀律的考量以及整個預算概算預算的編列。 那現在已經進行到相當的程度。 所以這個26億所增加出來的預算它應該是屬於原民自己"},{"start":207.952,"end":208.612,"text":"這是法律義務的支出。"},{"start":232.998,"end":259.766,"text":"我以上跟您提醒這個部分我希望院長您回去了之後真的好好考慮一下我們怎麼樣來把這個預算把它如剛剛主計長講的效益最大化傷害最小化而且僅僅只有25億他在所謂的三億三兆兩千億的大水庫裡面不會造成影響我相信"},{"start":260.046,"end":260.667,"text":"這是從3萬到6萬加倍的增加"},{"start":274.659,"end":301.235,"text":"整個預算是加倍的增加那對人是法定的義務那應該就是對原住民的族人同胞放在原住民相關的預算裡面去執行我不同意你的說法非常遺憾我希望院長你回去再考慮清楚您的立場跟我們上一屆的行政院長的立場還有我們的主席長的立場是不一樣的沒有不同我會一直盯這件事情盯到底"},{"start":302.156,"end":326.535,"text":"我會提醒高金委員,剛剛前主席長說的是大家允許合理討論,大家有共識合理討論。對嘛,所以我現在跟你說嘛,是在大水庫理論,不是在圓明會裡面的預算嘛,因為我們大水庫裡面有3兆2千億嘛,圓明會的預算只有125億嘛,所以應該就是得要如此來做嘛,對不對?好了院長,我們不要一開始就在這邊有爭執。"},{"start":328.337,"end":350.414,"text":"我請你我請你回去以後好好考慮我會盯著這件事情好不好然後全國人民還有包括原住民的族人一定都在看這件事情然後我在這邊要提醒曾主委主委原民會你們不要再習慣給自己穿小鞋了好不好先請主席長還有曾主委可以先回座休息謝謝"},{"start":352.608,"end":376.223,"text":"院長過去新院長在這邊上任的時候我總是會講一段歷史希望我們都能夠以史為鑑我待會要講的這歷史有一點點長我希望你能夠有點耐心聽完聽完了之後我會以留時間給你來回應好不好謝謝這個會期開議以來為了國會改革的法案立法院的內外發生了非常多的事情"},{"start":376.963,"end":405.014,"text":"我在立法院這裡工作了22年我跟所有的委員都知道法案從提案一直到通過我們一般都是依照立法院的議事規則在運作的過去呢就算發生過朝野攻防的情況都還能夠依照民主的原則協商、妥協然後在這裡表決通過但是呢這次卻不一樣因為在立法院席次比較少的民進黨他在議場之內看一下照片簡單"},{"start":406.574,"end":432.733,"text":"初報的把國會改革的法案抹黑成黑鄉反民主,抹紅成國會香港化。沒有任何證據就可以指控國會改革的法案是習近平指控是我們習近平這個要求韓院長還有傅坤祺要來幹的。然後柯總召他還預告了立法院會發生史上最嚴重的衝突。"},{"start":433.453,"end":457.501,"text":"而賴清等總統他要聚集在立法院外面的青鳥群眾守護民主。柯總召他又號召的這些青鳥要飛到立法院來。一朝外面的黑熊部隊更是直接了當的喊打喊殺。我們看一下這個影片。他讓台灣的民主死亡,我們讓他死亡也是剛好而已。"},{"start":460.592,"end":484.311,"text":"您上了第4天就準備要對立法院提復議案。 俗話說當家不鬧事可是現在當家執政的民進黨政府你們卻不斷的在激化朝野的對立。 發生這麼多的事情讓我對臺灣的民主體制還有憲政程序非常的憂心啊。 我認為歷史它是一面鏡子"},{"start":485.712,"end":513.277,"text":"唐太宗曾經說過﹝以童為敬可以爭一官﹝以使為敬可以和心替﹝以人為敬可以名得失﹞而院長您是賴總統所提名的行政院長。您對賴總統他上任以後的施政理念應該是最了解的。我讓您看一下一段影片。用過去所發生的種種歷代事件"},{"start":514.446,"end":542.827,"text":"來進行社會改造國家重建,來設定每一個人的人生。看到了嗎?賴總統他在4月6日出席鄭楠榮特長的開幕記者會上面他說這段話,他說我再重複一遍,他要利用過去發生的種種偉大的事件來進行社會改造,國家重建,還有要洗滌每一個人的人生。他的這段話,"},{"start":544.495,"end":557.956,"text":"讓我打了一個冷戰,聽到了非常毛骨悚然。 我們看到過去8年民進黨政府它經常宣傳說有政府會做事,並且還組成了一個一個的超前部署的國家隊。"},{"start":558.991,"end":586.27,"text":"他們自稱是政績空前而民進黨政府都把執政說得這麼出色了為什麼賴總統他還要國家重建呢?是賴總統他不滿意蔡總統這8年來自稱的政績所以才要重建國家嗎?所以才要改造社會嗎?所以才要洗滌每一個人的人生嗎?而賴總統他說的這個國家重建他讓我想起了一個歷史人物"},{"start":587.091,"end":610.389,"text":"他不但曾經高喊過國家重建,他還真的立了一個國家重建法。 這就是90年前1934年1月30日當時擔任德意志聯邦共和國的總理阿道夫希特勒他頒布了一個國家重建法而這項法律他直接取消了各聯邦的人民議會"},{"start":611.84,"end":631.657,"text":"各方的政府變成了沒有自治權沒有自決權的行政機構而這條法例的前言他宣稱這個是國會一致表決通過的而他講這句話當然是沒有錯因為那個時候德國所有的政黨基本上都被希特勒消滅掉了只剩下納粹黨我們來回顧一下這段歷史"},{"start":635.611,"end":658.885,"text":"1930年代初,看一下很多的影片,希特勒他領導的納粹黨,他成為了德國的第一大黨,但是他的席次並沒有過半,而不喜歡聖明黨還有共產黨的德國總統新登堡,他利用納粹黨對付左派的政黨,他因此任命了希特勒擔任了共和國的總理。"},{"start":659.765,"end":685.972,"text":"少數執政的納粹黨上臺之後他的內政部長戈林他就發動了五萬名的納粹衝鋒隊還有黨衛隊員以反共的名義指控還有鎮壓其他的在野黨。1933年的2月27日德國國會大廈發生了一個大火而希特勒他宣稱這是共產黨幹的"},{"start":687.612,"end":712.008,"text":"起火後第二天新東寶總統他馬上就簽署了保護人民和國家法令他暫停執行了憲法所保障的七項公民自由權利他們說這個法律是為了要防止共產黨危害國家暴力行為的預防措施然後納粹黨呢他就逮捕了四千名的共產黨人還有聲明黨人以及國會議員濫捕濫殺包括"},{"start":715.775,"end":742.602,"text":"嚴刑拷打﹚多年之後希特勒他任命的內政部長戈林他終於講了實話他說什麼他說火燒國會就是我們幹的院長您看反共抹紅多麼好用以前納粹黨用現在你們民進黨還在用好像只要貼上共產黨的標籤就可以為所欲為然後政治正確"},{"start":746.524,"end":769.498,"text":"但是儘管火燒國會,非法鎮壓,希特勒他的納粹黨在3月5日的國會選舉當中,他的席次依然是沒有過半的,只有44%,這好像民進黨在2024年選舉一樣,而被鎮壓的聲明黨還有保持第二大黨的地位,然後共產黨是排名第三,看一下這個席次。"},{"start":770.956,"end":784.756,"text":"如果希特勒他只是想要鞏固他的內閣政權的話,他只要聯合一下其他的右派政黨其實就可以了。但是希特勒他不這麼想,他要的不僅僅只是內閣,他要的是獨裁。"},{"start":787.339,"end":809.708,"text":"所以他當然不願意跟在野黨做任何的妥協,於是他把左派的國會議員全部一網打盡,然後很快的通過了什麼,通過了解除人民跟帝國苦難法。 這個法律雖然只有短短的五個條文,他卻直接的把國會的立法權,"},{"start":810.708,"end":831.22,"text":"﹗"},{"start":831.57,"end":842.542,"text":"德國的議會的民主制度從這個開始就被希特勒埋葬。德國中的所有的一切的權力全部集中到了希特勒他的手中。"},{"start":843.51,"end":870.142,"text":"很快的不到一年希特勒他頒布了國家重建法我再講一次國家重建法他是取消了各聯邦的人民議會而各邦的政府完全變成了中央的附屬行政機構從中央到地方希特勒他的權力是一把抓他終於實現了全面獨裁"},{"start":871.909,"end":894.731,"text":"我剛剛講的這是一段過去發生的事件。他不但改變了德國,他更改變了世界。而獨裁的希特勒從此之後他開始放手發動什麼?發動他所謂的社會改造。然後用納粹的信條洗滌了每一個德國人的人生。"},{"start":895.861,"end":914.931,"text":"還並且發動了世界大戰。 這不僅讓我想到賴總統他說,剛剛也看到了,他要利用過去所發生的種種偉大的事件來進行社會改造,來進行國家重建,他還要洗滌每一個人的人生。"},{"start":915.811,"end":916.812,"text":"我們來看一下再回顧一下5月17號。"},{"start":930.394,"end":954.781,"text":"來想一下如果賴總統他號召的守護民主的這些青鳥還有這些黑熊部隊然後按照柯建民總召他的指示真的飛進了議場然後也發生了柯總召所說的史上最嚴重的衝突會不會也有一把火燒到立法院呢而院長您說你要依照憲法提出復議"},{"start":956.601,"end":979.432,"text":"復議如果沒有通過,號召守護民主的賴總統他會不會拒絕簽署法案,還有拒絕公告?而柯總召他要提釋憲,並且他揚言釋憲的結果出來之前呢,他要凍結國會的改革法案。這樣做就是守護民主了嗎?"},{"start":981.873,"end":1005.527,"text":"40%民意的少數政府要與60%的在野的民意對抗。 這個社會還能夠安居樂業嗎?我講的這段歷史是以前的歷史,但是這一陣子發生的這些也是事實。 所以現在給你時間我想聽聽卓院長您的想法。"},{"start":1007.121,"end":1027.935,"text":"謝謝委員,也非常佩服委員,也再一次清楚聽到委員對於共產黨在二戰前那個希特勒主政的時候所受到的迫害,您非常清楚。我想你字眼當中對共產黨那個迫害的歷史你非常清楚。我講的是希特勒。"},{"start":1030.134,"end":1045.752,"text":"你不清楚臺灣人民面對威權時代受到什麼樣的迫害我怎麼會不清楚呢?當然清楚所以賴總統所說的偉大的事件在那個場景底下你應該清楚他講的是什麼事件臺灣人民一波又一波的面對威權的時候"},{"start":1046.954,"end":1073.27,"text":"我們在哪裡只有那些犧牲的前輩們他們用自己的生命跟熱血換到了今天我們可以站在這裡互相的對話民主的對話但是如果把它引申為跟希特勒那個時代的希特勒那絕對是歷史上完全不會做這樣的牽連的同時也不要對青鳥的那些活動的群眾們貼標籤他不是賴清德總統所號召來的"},{"start":1075.231,"end":1104.081,"text":"也不是我們所有的任何一個民進黨人可以去號召來的那些青鳥朋友們他們是看到了在立法院裡面整個的審查法案的過程他們覺得他們身為人命的權利被剝奪了他們看不到一個合理民主秩序跟民主程序的審查所以他們主動的站出來了那怎麼可以說他們是被誰所號召而來的人所以很多的前提在你的歷史"},{"start":1105.513,"end":1130.032,"text":"時間是對的,內容很多是不對的,引申過來更有嚴重的落差。講完了嗎?我講得比較簡短。好,謝謝。院長您的高度在這邊講,我真的實在是有一點覺得好笑。當然您說以前的這個民主主義是我們有很多的前輩他用他的生命犧牲換來的。"},{"start":1131.648,"end":1145.856,"text":"難道我現在要講的就是這個所謂的特權是不是就是要國家改造然後所謂的這個社會改造或者是洗敵人心您還沒有回答我沒有關係"},{"start":1148.098,"end":1158.469,"text":"洗滌不是洗滌成為威權時代的人心,是洗滌成為一個更民主、更自由、更開放、更國際的臺灣人民的人格,國際人格。"},{"start":1162.353,"end":1183.355,"text":"好遺憾,謝謝。卓院長,多數的人民是希望看到一個跟過去8年執政不一樣的政府新氣象。可是我們看到賴總統他的就職演說讓很多人錯愕。我希望誠意溝通、人民優先的卓院長"},{"start":1184.176,"end":1208.761,"text":"你能夠不要再讓多數人民的期待落空了。 我當然更不希望90年前曾經發生過的德國歷史因為少數人的權利欲望而痛苦的重演。 這不會發生在台灣的今天。 因為受苦的將會是人民。 這不會發生在今天的台灣。 院長我再讓你回顧一下"},{"start":1209.841,"end":1236.827,"text":"立法院審查國會改革案的那幾天一場內的暴力橫行看一下這很多的照片公然掛布條指控立法委員是中共的同路人一場外面的黑熊部隊青鳥亂飛然後掛看板要槍斃中共的立委賴總統他也鼓勵青鳥要守護民主柯總召他號召這些青鳥"},{"start":1237.628,"end":1265.698,"text":"你要飛進議場啊並且現在還煽動什麼煽動要罷免在野黨的立法委員再加上最恐怖的是無所不在監控人民手機訊號的天網而當天納粹的劇本要素都已經在這邊一一的具備了而我昨天晚上也很認真的看了行政院裡面的記者會"},{"start":1267.076,"end":1277.692,"text":"我感到非常的悲觀。我知道行政院一定會對國會改革提出複議可是呢在記者會上面的發言人"},{"start":1278.525,"end":1298.273,"text":"還有政委他們提出復議的七大理由竟然跟我們一場之內民進黨立法委員說謊的說法還有一場外面青鳥的控訴看一下那麼可怕的一些畫面還有橫行網路的1450的這些網軍他的說法一致"},{"start":1301.394,"end":1301.814,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":1325.934,"end":1326.254,"text":"我們針對程序不正……"},{"start":1347.839,"end":1348.92,"text":"我真的覺得你正是站在民族的懸崖邊。"},{"start":1368.82,"end":1382.755,"text":"我真的非常期待院長您能夠以史為鑑。 這個史、這個歷史不僅僅是臺灣的這一段過程的歷史,它更是剛剛我說的90年前希特勒他的獨裁"},{"start":1383.939,"end":1387.24,"text":"謝謝委員如果一開始您說不希望有委員或是任何人用習近平來演"},{"start":1413.251,"end":1413.491,"text":"只有一種"},{"start":1441.505,"end":1470.5,"text":"行政院的職權不要干涉到立法院。立法院在這邊是合法的通過了國會改革的法案,包括禁法補償。提醒您,我實踐,沒有程序不正義,我們所有在立法院討論的法案全部在立法院的網站裡面公開的跟人民報告。人民可以去看立法院裡面的網路,就會非常的清楚。"},{"start":1470.999,"end":1471.82,"text":"謝謝高金素梅"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}