{"error":false,"id":["153783"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153783,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153783","日期":"2024-06-11","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第17次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第17次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-11T09:48:06+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-11T10:18:58+08:00","影片長度":"00:30:52","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/065bcaf30f002e2bea09959badf57393eab218bf194c20658a5486dbe25062a1286ec5ce099167b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"09:48:06 - 10:18:58","會議時間":"2024-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第17次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。 \n二、6月7日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月11日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":202,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（9時48分）主席，請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：院長早安。院長，不好意思，因為我上禮拜參加了很多包肉粽的活動，有一點感冒了。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員保重。"],["黃委員建賓：聲音如果比較不清楚，也請多多包涵。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員保重。"],["黃委員建賓：先跟院長討論一下我們臺東的一些民生議題，院長，兩週前在桃園機場有出現一個怪象，有一個人假冒日本和尚在海關被攔下來，我一開始看到這個新聞，我以為他是什麼通緝犯，還是什麼詐欺犯，還是攜帶什麼危險物品，結果一查他是因為攜帶加熱菸被抓到，院長知道這個新聞嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道最近社會對加熱菸的法制化、合法化問題討論很多。"],["黃委員建賓：院長，坦白講，現在加熱菸應該是我們國人最常違規帶回的產品，媒體報導，光是去年海關就查獲一千三百多件，總共沒收九萬三千八百多條的加熱菸，這樣違規的情況不會是少數，會越來越多，第一線的海關人員也抱怨，每次如果查到了，第一時間就會被人家罵，他們會罵這些海關人員；另外一個更大的問題是整個倉庫都塞滿了加熱菸。我想要問一下衛福部部長，加熱菸目前到底算不算是違禁品？"],["邱部長泰源：算不算……"],["卓部長榮泰：違禁品。"],["邱部長泰源：我們現在已經通過相關的法令，目前這個要接受審查，所以現在都還沒有審查通過。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，在去年菸害防制法的修正案已修正通過一年了，規定加熱菸只要通過健康評估就可以上市，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["黃委員建賓：據本席瞭解是卡在健康評估階段，具體的問題是怎麼樣，我不太清楚，但是現況告訴我們一件事，因為卡在這個關頭，導致很多人會私自夾帶加熱菸回來臺灣販售。根據網路論壇指出，走私每一條加熱菸轉賣可以獲利上千元，難怪很多人甘願被罰錢也要拼這一條路，最大的問題是什麼？我們擔心的是，不是經過正常管道進來的加熱菸，會不會有假貨的問題？這個對國人的影響更大、危害性更大。另外一個部分，菸捐是國健署成人癌健篩檢的主要來源，在112年的時候菸捐是275億，相比於111年301億，減少了26億，菸捐逐年地下降，加熱菸已經超過一年沒有完成健康評估，這個是不是變相地讓這些走私進口的人賺走菸捐的錢？本席就要請教一下院長，今年能不能讓加熱菸的健康評估有一個結果，好壞都讓我們的民眾知道？"],["卓部長榮泰：報告委員，加熱菸的健康風險評估審查還沒有完全完成，這個在程序當中，衛福部剛剛已經聽到委員的意見，我想衛福部會面對問題來處理。"],["黃委員建賓：要儘速啦！因為我們都修法通過一年、評估一年了。"],["卓部長榮泰：是、是，我們會講求效率。"],["黃委員建賓：趕快讓大家知道結果，也不要讓這些事情發生，我想對於各方都是一件好事，好不好？","另外，我想再請教一下院長，民進黨政府很喜歡用「立國」做口號，像是觀光立國、體育立國，當然農業用「以農立國」，本席也很支持，畢竟民以食為天，農業也是所有產業的根本。臺灣是一個海島型國家，根據農業部糧食供需年報的數據，糧食自給率再度下降到30.7%。我們來看附近的國家，日本、韓國的糧食自給率也有41%到45%。院長，你知道先前我們部長說臺灣的糧食自給率要多少嗎？衛福部長請休息，謝謝！沒關係。"],["卓部長榮泰：農業生產不在數量的多寡，是國人需要、國家需要的命脈，這個……"],["黃委員建賓：部長，你上次是說多少百分比？"],["陳部長駿季：現在糧食自給率的部分是30.69%到30.7%左右，但是糧食自給率不等於糧食安全，因為我們糧食自給率主要的糧食大概都會超過80%到90%，唯一低的是關於畜牧的飼料、玉米部分，自給率大概只有5%，所以把整體自給率往下拉。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，當時你說糧食自給率要到多少？40%嘛，對嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，40%大概是這20年來歷任政府共同努力的目標。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，我們的目標是40%啦！今年還剩半年的時間，你覺得還有沒有機會達到？"],["陳部長駿季：我個人認為整個農業……"],["黃委員建賓：部長，有信心嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：主要是供一般用的糧食，我相信絕對可以達到60%到80%左右，但是對於飼料用的這些產品，可能還要再努力。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，臺灣目前有7成的食物都是仰賴進口，占7成，糧食是戰略物資，對嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是！"],["黃委員建賓：所以我們如果真的做不到，你們要用「以農立國」這個口號，我覺得是亂談。本席是臺東的立委，農業也是臺東很重要的經濟產業，臺東有一個地名叫「初鹿」，本席現在為臺東農業找「出路」。首先，我們有一個比較急迫的問題，臺東初鹿剛好也有酪農業，有去過臺東都知道初鹿鮮乳非常有名，食藥署在6月5號預告修正「鮮乳保久乳調味乳乳飲品及乳粉品名及標示規定」草案，保存期限30天以上，品名可以標示為延長保存期限鮮乳、長效鮮乳、ESL鮮乳，預定在2025年7月1號生效。部長，你知道有這件事情嗎？部長。"],["陳部長駿季：我非常瞭解，因為我們當初在協助酪農做產品區格的時候曾經討論過，就是我們要讓國外的鮮乳跟國內的鮮乳有一個市場的區格，所以向衛福部提出了一個長效乳的建議，將它的保存期限超過30天以上的，用另外一個名字去處理。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，這個會重創本土的酪農業，本席為什麼講？你看這個新聞也寫到酪農協會理事長說，主要是「鮮」那個字，可能我們對鮮的解釋不同，什麼叫做新鮮？在地的最新鮮，對不對？院長，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員建賓：對不對？我們有個酒品的廣告商還說18天的最新鮮嘛！對不對？國外的90天還可以叫鮮？90天還叫鮮？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，以農業部的立場，跟酪農一樣，就是我們希望用長效乳，而不是用長效鮮乳，這個部分衛福部只是預告，預告的時候還是會蒐集各方的意見，我們也積極跟衛福部溝通。"],["黃委員建賓：確實啦，部長，你是農業的大家長，人家這樣吃我們的豆腐，我們要幫農民講點話，你看以ESL為例，在紐澳地區ESL不會被視作鮮乳，結果我們酪農舉辦過的座談會，有專家學者、酪農都到場，也將產業的意見如實地傳達，食藥署的修正預告證明沒有聆聽產地的意見，這確實沒有討論就不是民主，部長，也期待你可以替我們農民講點話。","接下來我想農業還有另外一個在發展上讓人家感嘆的，因為農業現在變成千歲團，只剩下老農在進行農業的活動，雖然後面這幾年陸陸續續有青農的加入，但是離農率不小，原因是為什麼？有很多原因，第一個可能是因為找不到好的農地；第二個是因為災損他沒辦法承擔，有可能是因為他的養地成本太高，導致他滿腔的熱血投入農業，結果黯然地離農，問題很多啦！那本席就先從花費成本最大的兩個面向來跟部長就教，首先就是我們的肥料費用，以臺東最大宗的農產品─釋迦來看，最可能採用的就是雞糞加工肥料，就是我們的5-08，或者是雞糞添加50%以上的禽畜糞堆肥，就是我們說的5-09，上一屆農業部本來不要把5-09列入補助，本席向部長反映，感謝部長的支持，今年又列入，不過部長，本席認為這個不應該變動，而且要長期列入補助項目，部長你知道為什麼嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：以農業部的立場我們推動相關的有機肥，因為有機肥不僅是可以養地，同時有機肥的施用也可以減少碳排，所以未來在有機肥補助的部分，我想我們會持續。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，在我們有機肥廣泛地被使用之前，生雞糞還是農民常用的一個方式嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，因為生雞糞會造成一些環境的污染……"],["黃委員建賓：對，這就是……"],["陳部長駿季：但是生雞糞經過加熱處理以後，它變成比較腐熟的部分的話，我們會有一個協助的方式去推動這樣的作為。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，本席為什麼會這樣建議？這個補助是一個誘因，如果失去誘因之後，農民可能又會恢復使用生雞糞嘛！雞糞肥在東部是禁止使用的，我們看看其他地方有沒有，還是有的喔，2021年臺灣肥料用量總計是105萬公噸，農委會畜牧處的數據也顯示，同年有164.92萬噸的生雞糞不當施用於田間。換句話說，生雞糞的下田量是臺灣肥料總量的1.5倍以上，所以當5-09不列入補助之後，有可能就有人偷偷開始把雞糞肥放下去使用，這樣會造成什麼？蒼蠅作亂，吃飯的時候都是蒼蠅，你這個地方要發展觀光，人家看到蒼蠅就不要來了，這樣青農不會喜歡使用這東西，那對整個農產品也會有負面的影響，我想離農率一定會再提升，所以我想要請教院長，是不是可以給我們一個清楚的裁示，說相關的肥料補助都應該持續來進行？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得我們都應該朝更現代、進步、科技化發展，所以我想肥料的問題如果有更好的方式提供給農民，而且在負擔上不會有沉重的負擔，不要加重他們的負擔，那農業部應該全力去推動，也維護環境的衛生，也讓整個食品更加地潔淨。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝院長的承諾，我代替農民感謝你，也感謝部長，其實部長很照顧我們的農業。接下來，我們說到農產品，我們有比較好的肥料讓它生長之後，我們所有農業發展除了長期缺乏勞動力的問題，這個可能未來會到衛環委員會討論，但農業最重要、最大的問題是什麼？運輸的成本。這次蘇花公路坍方，最直接影響的就是花蓮跟臺東的這些農漁產品，像海鮮，因為不能久放，也有批發上的時間限制，所以發生過整臺貨車綁在火車上，貨車一路搭著火車到宜蘭，再開到臺北，這一趟路要多兩、三千塊的成本，因為這是天災的因素，所以我們有相關的專案可以進行補助，可是平常時呢？平常時是沒有的。","臺東農產品無論運送到什麼地方都是一筆費用，有些青農、小農的自創品牌都利用網路來販售，不過市場都反映價錢比較硬，為什麼比較硬？因為就卡到運輸成本，所以本席要求農業部長是不是可以跟交通部長針對交通運輸不便的縣市，像是花蓮、臺東在農特產品的運輸上，我們跟相關業者來研議優惠方案，讓臺東的農產品不用再加這麼貴的運輸成本，而失去競爭力？部長，這是不是能做到？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的關心。有關於運輸的部分，的確是整個農產品重要的成本之一，我們現在已經跟將近150家農會，也跟一個物流業者，就是OK的物流系統做合作，只要任何的農民把他的產品送到合作的農會，這樣的物流運輸費用可以降20%左右，所以用這種方式讓物流的效率提高，第二個也可以把物流的費用降低。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長。最後我們談到冷鏈技術，農業部曾經有一篇報導提到與臺灣大學農藝系吳俊達教授團隊合作研發冷鏈的技術，把鳳梨釋迦從原本運輸10天左右的時間延長到1個月以上，有了這個技術就能克服長途的運輸，我們可以將鳳梨釋迦賣到中東、賣到加拿大，目前這個技術應用的情況是怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們分兩個部分，第一個部分就是氣調櫃，它可以讓我們的鳳梨釋迦延長儲架壽命跟運輸期，現在大概有6家業者利用這種技術行銷到其他國家，我們希望持續推廣這樣的一個技術。"],["黃委員建賓：我們持續在推廣嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，這個冷鏈技術是好的，對不對？對臺東農業是不是會有幫助？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["黃委員建賓：我們明知道臺東需要這樣的冷鏈技術，農業部有沒有全心投入？沒有。部長，行政院為了推動建設農、畜、水產品全國冷鏈物流體系，總共投入經費126億，結果在農糧產品的冷鏈建設，臺東的建設是零；水產品的冷鏈建設只有1個，是我們新港漁會的加工設備，這還是臺東縣政府拿相對補助款一起來完成的；畜產品的冷鏈建設，臺東也沒有。之前我們臺東縣政府成功地跟農會、海運、空調業者攜手開發冷鏈保存技術，讓10噸的鳳梨一路睡眠保鮮送到杜拜，獲得不錯的銷售成績，但是冷鏈技術最大的問題就是很貴，運費的成本很貴！我們縣長其實也曾經在臉書上呼籲，光是臺東地區農會的冷鏈包裝集貨場，投入的金額就要超過1億元，這不是地方政府可以承擔的，所以本席要求農業部重新盤整整個計畫，無論是中央增加補助各個農會的冷鏈設備，或是要設立新的大型冷鏈及加工物流中心都可以，讓我們目前兩岸看似前景堪憂的情況之下提早做好準備，我們要提早做好準備，未來我們的產品才可以銷到更遠的地方，這點請院長是不是能同意裁示，由農業部會同相關部會幫助臺東增設或增加大型的冷鏈設備園區？"],["陳部長駿季：我是不是可以先跟委員稍微說明一下？第一個，整個冷鏈第一期的計畫在今年度結束，整個冷鏈大概分為旗艦區域跟農民團體的部分，您剛才說的臺東縣政府本身，因為區域冷鏈中心是由臺東縣政府提的，我們會積極地再跟它洽談，但是對於農民團體還有集貨場的冷鏈補助還是持續，所以並沒有委員所說的「0」。第二個部分，我們也在積極研提第二期冷鏈計畫，這個冷鏈計畫未來會更普及到農場端、集貨場端，這個部分謝謝委員的關心。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長。院長，這等於是答應了喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。農民、農村、農會及地方政府應該好好的整合，地方到底需要些什麼樣對農事生產有幫助的設備，地方政府如果財政真的負擔不起，我們有一定的管道可以進行補助。剛剛提到天災地變的運輸也有補助，這樣的設施補助也是常年在做了，我希望能夠把它用到實際真正需要的地方去，所以我剛剛說農民、農村、農會跟地方政府應該先做整合，這個我們會來好好檢討。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝院長，也謝謝院長跟部長你們的承諾，我先代替臺東的農民謝謝院長及部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：也謝謝委員。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長，接下來我想要討論關於交通、觀光的問題。","院長，除了用什麼立國的口號以外，民進黨執政八年很喜歡用平權這個口號，強調婚姻平權、性別平權，本席覺得這非常好，我也很支持。但是院長，交通需要平權嗎？交通需不需要平權？院長就回答我需不需要就好。"],["卓院長榮泰：交通需要安全。"],["黃委員建賓：需要平權嗎？需要平權喔？"],["卓院長榮泰：安全的考量就會包含很多。"],["黃委員建賓：安全是最終我們要的，那需不需要平權嘛？需要嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：賴總統一直強調均衡臺灣，各地的發展有其地方的特色、文化及需求，我們會逐一去檢視。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝。我們先跟部長談，部長，因為我們之前在委員會有先聊過了，本席從2月上任至今，我們看到執政黨給花東縣民的交通平權是什麼，我們先說0403花蓮大地震之後，花東的鐵公路中斷，住在北部的臺東人要回去臺東，他要被迫環島一圈，高鐵轉臺鐵，然後再站5個小時回到臺東，我們先不管他的運輸成本增加，一路上還沒有位子坐，不過這個就是臺鐵給我們最大的……開放讓站票可以進去。我們講到天災這無可厚非，本席也接受，但我跟你看個影片，部長，請你看一下。","（播放影片）"],["黃委員建賓：部長，本席簡單說明一下，這個是4月22號本席接獲陳情，當日2點已經知道和仁到崇德段的火車中斷，不過，臺鐵繼續把票賣給要往臺東的民眾，更可惡的是，已經決定票賣給民眾了，拖了30分鐘之後才讓第一線人員知道前面沒辦法開車，那怎麼辦？民眾無所適從，停了開、開了停，他們都不知道該怎麼辦，你們把花東人民的安全推到最危險的邊緣，包括整個臺鐵的員工。接下來還有，上一週端午節連假的前一天，玉里、瑞穗的鐵路淹沒，南橫的道路坍方，我們花東人安全回家的路都遙遙無期，這些都可以說是天災，沒有關係，你們提出了很多解決的辦法、規劃，但是完成了嗎？部長，在還沒完成之前，臺鐵公司還規劃要漲票價，花蓮的災情都還沒有恢復，觀光重創的情況之下，還研議要漲票價，院長，本席認為這樣子都是在花東人民的傷口上撒鹽，這件事還是我跑去交通委員會提出臨時動議說在災情恢復前不得漲票價才暫緩的喔！不然我真的不知道執政黨是怎麼樣剝削我們花東人民的血汗錢，漲票價可以，我們也支持，因為要營運成本，可是花東鐵路的雙軌化，還有你們規劃建設邊坡監測預警系統完成之前，在臺鐵可以提供更安全、更多班次之前，北東快線全面凍漲，院長，同意嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，其實我們現階段對於花東交通的改善，還有提供花東民眾安全、便捷回家的路，我想政府其實是不遺餘力的在努力，譬如兩年前完成的南迴公路，其實也對臺東出入往西部這邊，以及高雄、南部這邊的進出提供了一個很大的改善，也縮短了將近有一個小時的車程。另外，蘇花改之後接著蘇花安，如果整個貫通完成，就可以跟國道5銜接，而且這次蘇花改也得到印證，就是在整個地震來講，蘇花改完成的路段都是很安全。"],["黃委員建賓：其實有幫助。"],["李部長孟諺：所以政府對於花東的投資其實沒有減少，持續有增加。"],["黃委員建賓：對啊！我們都知道啦，可是漲票這件事情對民眾影響很大。"],["李部長孟諺：另外，花東的雙軌化還有列車，現在我們把最新、最好的列車都提供給花東的服務，就是EMU3000。"],["黃委員建賓：對。"],["李部長孟諺：這個可以從三百多個位置增加到五百多個位來增加花東整個運量。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，你講到EMU3000，你有聽過民眾反應椅子非常難坐嗎？椅子很難坐啦！因為它不能躺，三個小時的時間，你都是沒有辦法躺，腰不舒服，未來是不是可以開放讓民眾先試乘來反映一下，好不好？聽說你們有要改善，對嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：椅子的問題，我們會再來持續的改善，不過對運量的提升，現在的準點率也都有在處理。另外，確實這次的地震有顯示出花東有一些部分的路段，落石的風險確實還在，所以這次我們院也已經核定有將近20億的經費要去投入，對於在鐵路的部分，還要再增加一些明隧道等等的安全措施。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長非常詳細的說明，院長，本席的重點是在這些事情解決之前，花東，就是臺北、臺東這樣的鐵路車票是不是可以凍漲？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員也應該清楚，臺鐵的車票29年沒有調整。"],["黃委員建賓：我知道……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是因為說它必須調整，而是它在公司化之後，我想它必須逐步減少很多政策的功能跟手段，讓它循序漸進的來……"],["黃委員建賓：院長，其實是這樣子，有很多方法可以來解決啦，我們當然知道營運成本這些問題都是存在的，你也可以用很多方案，比如早鳥票、分散人流、離尖峰時期的購票系統，它都可以做嘛！但是你不能直接就說要漲價，因為對花東人來講，你都還沒做好，你就要給我漲價，你如果做好再漲價，我沒話說，問題是你還沒做好啊，所以這部分院長是不是可以承諾？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這部分，第一、我們要提升它的服務品質，第二、據我所知，臺鐵的售票是一套很複雜的系統，它有很多區段等等很複雜的系統，希望它重新的檢視，至於能不能提出各種的方式，在目前這個階段，我是還沒有得到這個訊息，部長這邊有沒有新的資料？但是我們希望臺鐵公司化之後必須更靈活，更有企業管理的精神，減少一些政策目標，但是循序漸進的來。"],["黃委員建賓：是，當然。院長，你知道其實東部幹線是臺鐵的金雞母，依照我們交通部自己做的報告，它的承載率高達六十幾趴，然後它的假日載客率還超過90%，所以常常一票難求。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員建賓：所以東部這條線是會賺錢的，既然會賺錢，我們就能夠彈性的來調整它，讓民眾能有更好的交通品質，也可以提升我們的臺鐵的營運成本，這是不是可以雙贏？所以這部分，院長、副部長，本席還是要求啦！有些東西在漲之前，真的要考慮一下在地人的心情。","好，我們接下來繼續討論，鐵路、公路是臺東很重要的聯絡依靠，不過一旦發生中斷的時候，或者是連假，航空也是我們不得不的選擇手段，請問一下部長，你知道去臺東的正常機票來回要多少錢？我講給你聽。"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["黃委員建賓：將近五千塊，看這邊有表。"],["卓院長榮泰：單趟。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，你知道近期臺北飛澳門來回機票要多少錢？"],["李部長孟諺：臺北飛哪裡？"],["黃委員建賓：澳門。"],["李部長孟諺：澳門，五千八。"],["黃委員建賓：對，不到6,000啦，人家還包一個飛機餐，我們應該不要講到廉航這個部分。臺東來臺北比臺北去澳門還要貴，本席要強調的是說不只貴，而且常常買不到座位，我想離島有離島票價補貼，還有縣民保留機位，這個其實在臺東都沒有，當然沒錯，離島有它的交通限制，所以我們要補貼他是合理嘛，難道臺東都沒有交通上的限制嗎？在我們剛剛談了這麼多之後，臺東有沒有交通限制？我們臺東、花東沒有國道、沒有快速道路！我們有什麼？我們只有一條遇到天災就會中斷的鐵公路。所以本席要求是不是可以給設籍臺東的居民擁有票價優惠跟座位保留？這個部分是不是可以答應一下？"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，我們的瞭解是，飛花東的航線確實是因為鐵路比較平價，另外鐵路的票也比較好訂，所以飛花東的航線這幾年確實是在下降，譬如像臺北到花蓮，目前一個禮拜只剩下4個班次。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，其實跟本席跟你講，上個禮拜我搭飛機回去臺東還差點買不到票，這是真的！其實假日的承載率是高的，這塊當然有很多方法可以來解決，但是不是可以給臺東的居民有優惠，就像你補助離島一樣的票價優惠，第二個保留機位，不然我們如果臨時要去臺北，常常都沒有機票、機位啊！這是不是可以幫忙我們一下？"],["李部長孟諺：我的瞭解確實是現在花東航線的經營面對鐵路的挑戰，成本或者是經濟規模都有下跌，這個部分我們會再來看怎麼樣改善這個狀況。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長，本席會持續來追蹤這個問題。","接下來，我們考慮完了臺東本島的問題，臺東還有2個離島──綠島跟蘭嶼，我們來看一下影片。","（播放影片）"],["黃委員建賓：部長、院長，這就是離島人的日常，祈禱著飛機下來又目送它離開，今天看的這個可能比較詼諧，你有沒有想過，如果今天等待的不是信件而是重要的醫療物資，或者是有民眾急需到臺東本島就醫或處理事情，他的心情會怎麼樣？我們知道、也去探討這個原因，結果是因為氣候的關係，東北季風風太大所以它沒有辦法飛，或者是下來之後沒有辦法順利著地而再離開，這個是天氣不可抗的因素。","可是你看一下這個圖表，這個是監察院107年的統計報告，到113年的今天這個問題有沒有改善？一樣是東北季風，兩者的取消率差了十倍多，一個是馬祖的南竿、一個是臺東蘭嶼。我想這就是因為飛機的大小造成的，因為沒辦法飛大的飛機，所以受風面大它就沒有辦法停靠，都要用命去拼呢！早期我們的祖先是用生命在拼、坐船過黑水溝；現在我們臺東的居民是用生命在拼、拼飛機可以平安降落，在這個時間點還會發生這種事是很不可思議！","當然有很多的報告沒有辦法給一個明確的結論，不過在105年就核定了超過9億元要改善我們蘭嶼的機場，到現在還沒有成效，院長、部長，從109年到現在的進度到哪邊？有沒有改善？這部分因為時間的關係，會後再請部長跟本席說明，也謝謝……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望國人體諒天候的關係，但是航空器的安全、機場的管理一定要加強，這個我們答應做到！"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝院長、也謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員、謝謝卓院長。","下一位請劉委員建國質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":173,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-17","speakers":["江啟臣","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","黃建賓","劉建國","柯志恩","沈伯洋","萬美玲","吳沛憶","王鴻薇","范雲","王育敏","李坤城","林憶君","王美惠","邱志偉"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00003","1135401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第17次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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一定感到這個新聞。 我知道最近社會對加熱煙的法制化合法化問題討論的很多。 是。 非常坦白講現在加熱煙應該是我們國人最常違規待違的產品。"},{"start":91.311,"end":118.147,"text":"委員媒體報導光是去年海關就查獲一千三百多件那總共沒收了九萬三千八百多條的這個加熱煙這樣違規的情況不會是少數越來越多那我想第一線的海關人員也有抱怨每次查到第一時間就要放棉嘛 他們就放棉 現在海關已經完嘛另外一個更大的問題是整個倉庫都塞滿了這個加熱煙那我想問一下衛福部長"},{"start":119.229,"end":134.368,"text":"部長,加熱液目前到底算不算是違禁品?我們現在已經通過相關的法令,那現在這個要接受審查,所以現在都還沒有審查通過。"},{"start":136.286,"end":154.279,"text":"委員長,那個冤害防治法的修正案在去年修正通過一年了,那規定加熱塩只要通過健康評估就可以上市,對不對?那我們目前是卡在,據本席了解是卡在健康評估的這個階段嘛,那具體的問題是這樣我不太清楚,但是現況告訴我們一件事就是因為卡在這個關頭,"},{"start":155.74,"end":168.663,"text":"所以導致很多人會失智地假帶這個加熱煙回來台灣販售根據網路的論壇指出每一條加熱煙走私加熱煙可以轉賣可以獲利上千元最大的問題是什麼就是我們擔心的是"},{"start":176.038,"end":176.058,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":201.124,"end":203.825,"text":"請教一下院長,我們今年可以讓加熱菸的健康評估有一個結果嗎?"},{"start":216.976,"end":242.186,"text":"報告委員加熱菸的健康風險評估的審查還沒有完全的完成那這個是程序當中那衛部部剛剛已經聽到委員的意見我想衛部會面對問題來處理因為我們都修法通過一年的評估一年的因為趕快的讓結果讓大家知道這件事情也不要讓這些事發生我想這個對於各方都是一些好事的好不好那另外我想再請教一下這個"},{"start":244.773,"end":260.25,"text":"委員長那個民進黨政府就喜歡用什麼很喜歡用什麼立國做口號說觀光立國體育立國當然農業用以農立國這個本性也很支持因為畢竟民以食為天嘛那農業也是所有產業的根本嘛齁"},{"start":261.161,"end":261.641,"text":"農業的生產"},{"start":286.581,"end":286.661,"text":"主席"},{"start":295.519,"end":317.893,"text":"涼食自給率的部分是30.69左右到30.7左右但是涼食自給率不等於涼食安全因為我們涼食自給率主要的涼食大概都會超過80%到90%那唯一低的是有關於畜牧部分的這些飼料玉米的部分大概自給率只有5%所以把整體的自給率往下拉"},{"start":319.141,"end":340.052,"text":"部長你說,你的重點是,你當時說,你當時自己覺得要到多少?40%嗎?對不對?沒有,40%是大概這20年來的歷任的政府,我們共同努力的一個目標。 共同努力的目標。 我們的目標是40%啦,那你覺得今年有沒有,還剩半年的時間,你覺得有沒有機會達到?我個人,"},{"start":340.859,"end":343.902,"text":"部長,我們台灣目前有七成的食物都是仰賴進口"},{"start":362.924,"end":363.144,"text":"韓國瑜主席"},{"start":386.136,"end":398.985,"text":"臺東出入剛好也有落農業就是有去過臺東都知道出入鮮乳非常有名那食藥署在6月5日預告修正鮮乳、飽酒乳、調味乳、飲品以及乳粉品名及標示規定的草案"},{"start":401.218,"end":415.883,"text":"標保存期限30天以上可以標示為延長保存期限先入、長效先入、ESL先入,預定在2025年7月1日生效。 不然你知不知有什麼事?部長"},{"start":417.95,"end":440.112,"text":"我非常了解因為我們當初在協助弱農做產品區隔的時候曾經討論過就是我們要讓我們國外的鮮乳跟國內的鮮乳做有一個市場的一個區隔所以向衛福部提出了一個長效乳的一個建議將他的一個保存期限超過30天以上的用另外一個名字去處理"},{"start":441.231,"end":466.06,"text":"市長,這個會重創本土的酪農業。本期為什麼講?你看這個新聞他也寫到,這個酪農協會理事長說,主要是那個先那個字啊,可能我們對先的解釋不同。先沒有這個先,在地最先嘛,對不對?你認識嗎?是。對,我們那個有個那個酒品的廣告上來說,在地十八天最早嘛,對不對?"},{"start":469.937,"end":496.315,"text":"我跟委員說明以農業部的立場跟酪農一樣就是我們希望用長效乳而不是用長效鮮乳那這個部分衛福部只是預告那預告的時候還是會收集各方的意見那我們也積極跟衛福部再做一個溝通確實部長你是農業的大家長人家這樣吃我們的豆腐不要幫農民說國外人你看以ESL的例子在紐澳地區ESL不會被視作鮮乳"},{"start":497.625,"end":523.413,"text":"其實我們落農舉辦過的這個座談會有專家學者落農都到場,也將產業的意見如實的傳達,是要屬於修正依靠證明沒有聆聽產地的意見嗎?這開始沒有討論就不是民主。保證,也期待你可以替我們的農民說話。那接下來我想農業還有另外一個在發展上讓人家感嘆的就是因為農業現在變成牽稅團,只剩下老農在進行這個農業的活動。"},{"start":528.154,"end":555.134,"text":"雖然後面這幾年陸陸續續有青農的加入,但是離農率不小。原因是為什麼?因為有很多原因。第一個可能是因為找不到好的農地。第二個是因為災損他沒辦法承擔。有可能是因為他的養地成本太高,導致他滿腔的熱血投入農業,結果黯然的離開離農。這問題很多,那本席就先從花費成本最大的兩個面向來跟部長這邊來就教。首先就是我們的肥料的費用。"},{"start":556.135,"end":556.555,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":576.527,"end":583.292,"text":"以農業部的立場就是我們推動相關的一個有機肥,因為有機肥不僅是可以養地,同時有機肥的施用也可以減少它的碳排的部分,所以這個部分未來在有機肥的這些補助的部分我想我們會持續。"},{"start":603.527,"end":631.068,"text":"我認為既然有機肥廣泛的被使用之前生肌糞還是農民常用的一個方式吧對不對我跟委員說明因為生肌糞會造成一些環境的汙染但是生肌糞經過加熱處理以後它變成一個比較腐熟的部分的話我們會有一個協助的方式去推動這樣的一個作為部長本期為什麼我會這樣建議就是這個補助是一個誘因你如果誘因失去之後農民肯定會恢復使用生肌糞嘛"},{"start":632.108,"end":632.128,"text":"﹚黃建賓"},{"start":658.817,"end":687.216,"text":"有可能有人剛開始把雞腮尾放下去使用,這樣會造成什麼?苦神作亂,糊塵,吃飯的時候都是糊塵,你這個地方沒有發動觀光,看到這個糊塵人家就不要來了。這樣親農不會喜歡使用這東西,那對整個農產品也會有負面的影響。我想離農率一定會再提升,所以我想要請教院長,因為是不是讓我們解清楚的才是說相關的肥料補助都應該持續來進行。"},{"start":689.537,"end":690.498,"text":"謝謝院長的承諾,我代替農民感謝,感謝部長,其實部長要照顧我們的農業,"},{"start":717.486,"end":730.734,"text":"接下來,我們說到農產品,我們有比較好的肥料讓它生長之後,我們除了農業發展除了長期缺乏勞動力的問題,這個可能未來我們會到委員會來討論。那最重要的,農業開始最大的問題是什麼?運輸的成本。"},{"start":733.393,"end":751.741,"text":"像我們這次蘇澳公路攤房,那最直接影響的就是花蓮跟台東的這些農業產品,像海鮮啊,因為它不能孤空嘛,那它也有批發上的時間限制嘛,就發生過整台貨車綁在火車上,一路貨車搭著火車到宜蘭,再開到台北。"},{"start":752.732,"end":775.947,"text":"這一趟路要多兩、三千塊的成本,那因為這個是天災的因素,所以我們有相關的專業科技來進行補助,可是平常時是沒有的。臺東農產品無論運送到什麼地方都是一筆費用,有些青農、小農、自創品牌都利用網路來販售,不過市場都反映說你的技術有概念,有什麼概念?因為就卡到我們的文書的成本。"},{"start":777.108,"end":796.5,"text":"所以本席要求農業部長是不是可以跟我們交通部長還有針對我們交通運輸普遍的縣市像是花蓮、台東在農特產品的運輸上我們跟相關業者來研議這個優惠的方案。讓台東我們的農產品不用再加這麼多的運輸費的成本而是去競爭力。部長這個是不是能做到?"},{"start":797.38,"end":826.5,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,那有關於運輸的備份的確是整個農產品重要的一個成本之一。那我們現在已經跟將近150家的農會,然後跟一個物流業者,就是OK的物流系統去做合作。只要任何的農民把他的產品送到合作的農會,然後這樣的物流的一個運輸費用可以降20%左右。所以用這種方式也可以讓他的物流的效率提高,第二個也可以把他的物流的費用降低。"},{"start":827.78,"end":850.028,"text":"謝謝部長最後我們談到一個就是冷鏈技術我們農業部曾經有談到有一篇報導提到臺灣大學的那個農業系的這個吳俊達教授團隊合作研發冷鏈的這個技術把鳳梨釋迦從原本運輸10天左右的時間可以延長到一個月以上因為有了這個技術啊就能夠克服我們的長途的運輸嘛"},{"start":852.108,"end":877.755,"text":"我們可以將鳳梨支架賣到中東,賣到加拿大,那目前這個技術運用的情況是怎麼樣?我們分兩個部分,第一個部分就是氣條櫃,它可以讓我們的鳳梨支架延長它的儲價收名跟運輸期。那現在大概有6家的業者,它利用這種技術去行銷到其他的國家,那我們希望說持續的推廣這樣的一個技術。"},{"start":878.755,"end":886.28,"text":"我們持續在推廣嘛吼。 是。 那部長這個冷電技術是好的嘛對不對?那對台東農業是不是會有幫助?"},{"start":886.28,"end":891.643,"text":"對。 那我們明明知道這個臺東需要這樣的冷電技術。 那農業部有沒有全心投入?"},{"start":891.643,"end":901.889,"text":"不。 不定。 行政院為了推動我們建設農蓄水產品全國冷電物流體系,總共投入的經費是126億。 結果在農糧產品的冷電建設,農糧產品臺東的建設頂。"},{"start":907.324,"end":918.721,"text":"水產品的能電建設只有一個,就是我們新港漁會的加工設備,這個還是台東縣政府拿相對補助款起來一起完成它的。那蓄產品的能電建設台東也沒有。"},{"start":920.133,"end":935.928,"text":"之前我們台中縣政府成功的跟農會、海運、空調業者攜手開發這個冷鏈保存技術,讓10噸的鳳梨一路睡眠保鮮送到杜拜,獲得不錯的銷售成績。但是我們冷鏈技術最大的問題就是很貴。"},{"start":937.81,"end":937.83,"text":"﹚黃建賓"},{"start":954.755,"end":954.775,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":973.584,"end":991.318,"text":"未來我們的產品才可以向到更遠的地方。 這點我想請院長是不是能夠同意才是由農業部會同相關部會幫助台東增設或增加大型的這個冷鏈設備園區。 我是不是可以先跟委員稍微說明一下。第一個部分就是整個冷鏈第一期的計畫在"},{"start":992.299,"end":992.419,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":1017.176,"end":1027.062,"text":"第二個部分就是我們也在積極的研提第二期的冷鏈計畫,那這個冷鏈計畫未來我想更會普及到我們的農場端到集貨場端,這個部分我想謝謝委員的關心。"},{"start":1029.213,"end":1047.851,"text":"謝謝部長委員 一定這件事就答應了謝謝委員 這個農民、農村、農會跟地方政府應該好好的整合地方到底需要些什麼樣對這個農事生產有幫助的設備那地方政府如果財政真的是負擔不起我們有一定的管道可以進行補助 剛剛提到說"},{"start":1048.391,"end":1051.332,"text":"謝謝院長跟部長你們的承諾我先代替臺東的農民謝謝院長跟部長接下來我想要討論關於這個交通觀光的問題"},{"start":1083.187,"end":1084.549,"text":"交通需要安全"},{"start":1104.121,"end":1125.555,"text":"謝謝。"},{"start":1126.38,"end":1151.762,"text":"我們先跟部長談,部長因為我們之前在委員會有先聊過,本席從2月上任至今,我們看到執政黨給臺東花東縣民的交通平權是什麼?我們先說0403,花蓮大地震之後,我們花東的鐵公路中斷。我們住在北部的台東人,要到台東,他要被迫環島一圈,高鐵轉台鐵,然後再站5個小時回到台東。"},{"start":1152.608,"end":1176.407,"text":"我們先不管他的成本運輸增加一路上還沒有位置做這個不過這個就是台鐵給我們最大的讓你開放讓你站票可以進去那我們講到天災無可厚非本席也接受但我給你看個影片保證你你看一下那要蘇耀新幹嘛蘇耀新那邊交通不夠不方便要回台北不方便他直接蘇耀新直接就會折返"},{"start":1189.728,"end":1207.161,"text":"部長這個本席簡單的說明一下這個是4月22號本席監獲懲請當日2點已經知道河冷跟崇德段的火車中斷了不過我們台鐵繼續把票賣給要往台東的民眾"},{"start":1208.493,"end":1230.435,"text":"那更可惡的是齁,你已經決定票賣給民眾之後,你花了30分鐘之後你才讓第一線人員知道說,逃選那邊沒辦法開。那怎麼辦?民眾無所失從,停了開了開了停,他們都不知道該怎麼辦。我們花東人民,你把花東人民的安全推到最危險地點,包括整個台鐵的員工。"},{"start":1232.182,"end":1256.737,"text":"那我想接下來還有上一週我們端午節連假的前一天御旅那個瑞穗的鐵路淹沒南橫的道路攤房我們花東人安全回家的路都遙遙無期這些都可以說是天災沒有關係你們提出了很多的解決辦法規劃但是完成了"},{"start":1259.342,"end":1284.165,"text":"部長,在還沒完成之前,台鐵公司還規劃要漲票價,對不對?花蓮的災情都還沒有恢復,觀光重創的情況之下,還研議要漲票價。院長,我們是認為這樣子都是在花東人口的傷口上傻眼。這條就是我早期高通議員會臨時提出臨時動議說,在災情恢復前不得漲票價才暫緩的喔。"},{"start":1285.646,"end":1307.032,"text":"我真的不知道我們職長是怎麼樣剝削我們花東人民的血汗錢?漲票價可以,我們也支持因為要營運成本,可是花東鐵路的雙軌化,還有你規劃建設這個邊坡的監測預警系統完成之前,在台鐵可以提供更安全、更多班次之前,北東快線全面動漲,院長你同意嗎?"},{"start":1309.502,"end":1332.611,"text":"跟委員報告,其實我們現階段對於花東的交通的改善,還有提供花東民眾安全便捷回家的路,我想政府其實是不遺餘力的在努力。比如說兩年前完成的南回公路,其實也對台東出入往西部這邊,包括高雄南部,"},{"start":1342.255,"end":1359.142,"text":"蘇花改,之後接著蘇花安,如果整個貫通完成,就可以跟國道5銜接。而且這次蘇花改也得到印證,就是在整個地震來講,蘇花改完成的路段都是很安全。所以政府對花東的投資其實沒有減少。"},{"start":1360.242,"end":1363.224,"text":"發動的雙軌化還有列車,現在我們把最新最好的列車都提供給發動的服務,就是EMU3000,那這個可以從300多個位置增加到500多個位置,來增加發動整個運量。"},{"start":1382.912,"end":1399.845,"text":"移植很難做啦,因為他不能躺平,那三個小時的時間你都是沒有辦法腰那個不舒服,那個未來是不是可以開放讓民眾先試乘來反映一下,好不好?因為條工運要改善嘛對不對?是一定要有問題,我們會再來持續的改善,不過就是說對運量的提升"},{"start":1400.145,"end":1401.706,"text":"謝謝部長非常詳細的說明。那院長本席的重點是"},{"start":1428.334,"end":1455.735,"text":"在這些事情解決之前,花東,北東,就是臺北臺東這樣的鐵路的車票是不是可以動賬?委員也應該清楚,那個臺鐵的車票29年沒有調整,那我不是意味說他必須調整,而是他在公司化之後,我想他必須逐步的減少很多政策的功能和手段,但是讓他循序漸進的來。 院長其實是這樣子,其實很多方法可以來解決,"},{"start":1456.696,"end":1472.937,"text":"那當然我們當然知道營運成本這些問題都是存在的嘛,你也可以用很多方案,比如說找鳥票啊、分散人流啊、離間封時期的這個勾票系統,它都可以做嘛,但是你不能直接就說要漲價,因為對發動人講,你都還沒做好你就給我企價,你如果做好你就給我企價我不會說啊,問題是你還沒做好啊。"},{"start":1475.08,"end":1501.962,"text":"所以這部分院長是不是可以承諾?所以這部分我們第一個提升他的服務品質。第二個據我所知台鐵的售票是一套很複雜的系統他有很多區段等等等等很複雜的系統那希望他重新的檢視那至於能不能提出各種的方式在目前這個階段我是還沒有得到這個訊息部長這邊有沒有新的資料但是我們希望台鐵公式化之後必須更靈活更有企業管理的精神減少一些政治目標但是循序漸進的來"},{"start":1503.383,"end":1507.128,"text":"院長也是要借東部幹線施台鐵的經濟模。﹖他的承載力"},{"start":1508.752,"end":1531.265,"text":"依照我們那個交通部自己做的那個報告,它的承載率高達60幾%﹖然後它的假日做客率還超過90%﹖所以常常一票難求﹖所以當部這條線是會賺錢的﹖而且這段賺錢能夠調整﹖能夠彈性的來調整它﹖讓民眾能夠有更好的交通品質﹖也有可以提升我們的台鐵的營運成本﹖這是不是要讓雙贏﹖"},{"start":1533.746,"end":1559.326,"text":"院長、副長、本席還是要求有些東西在漲之前真的要考慮一下在地人的心情。好,那我們接下來繼續討論的就是說那個鐵路公路是台東很重要的聯絡的依靠。不過一旦發生中斷的時候或者是廉價航空也是我們不得不的選擇的手段。建盟是要保證"},{"start":1560.54,"end":1589.138,"text":"普通機票來回要多少錢?我講回聽好了,將近五千塊。來看這邊有沒有票。部長你知道近期臺北飛澳門來回機票要多少錢?臺北飛哪裡?澳門。五千八。到六千,人家還包一個飛機餐。我們應該不要講到聯航這個部分。"},{"start":1590.985,"end":1615.376,"text":"臺東來臺北比臺北去澳門還要貴分析要強調的是說不只貴而且常常買不到座位我想離島有離島票交補貼還有縣民保留機會這個其實在臺東都沒用當然沒錯離島有它的交通限制所以我們要補貼它是合理嘛難道臺東都沒有交通上的限制嗎才我們剛剛談了這麼多之後臺東有沒有交通限制"},{"start":1616.274,"end":1632.106,"text":"我們台東花東沒有國道沒有快速道路我們有什麼我們就一條遇到天災就會中斷的鐵公路所以本席要要求是不是可以給涉及台東的居民擁有票價的優惠跟座位保留這個部分是不是可以答應一下"},{"start":1633.42,"end":1660.504,"text":"跟委員報告我們的了解是徽花東的航線確實是因為鐵路大家比較因為鐵路的這個比較平價那另外鐵路的票也比較好定所以徽花東的航線這幾年確實是在下降那也因為他的這個譬如說像台北到花蓮目前一個禮拜只有只剩下4個班次部長其實跟本席跟你講上個禮拜我回去台東搭飛機還差點買不到票"},{"start":1661.164,"end":1662.305,"text":"請問我們該去台北每天都沒有機票嗎?"},{"start":1683.308,"end":1701.338,"text":"我的了解確實是現在的航空航線花東航線的經營面對鐵路的挑戰這個成本或者是規模都經濟規模都有下跌那這個部分我們會再來看怎麼樣來改善這個狀況。 謝部長部長會持續那個本協會持續來追蹤這個問題齁那接下來我們考慮完了臺東本島的問題臺東還有兩個地島地島跟南嶼我們來看一下一個影片"},{"start":1710.404,"end":1712.105,"text":"部長、院長這就是離島人的日常。起島的飛機下來又目送他離開。"},{"start":1740.698,"end":1754.212,"text":"今天看起來比較虛邪,你們想過,如果今天等待的不是信件,是重要的醫療物資,或者是有民眾急需到台中東本島,包括就醫,包括處理事情,他的心情會怎麼樣?"},{"start":1758.427,"end":1770.697,"text":"我們知道也去探討這個原因結果就是說因為是氣候的關係東北季風風太大所以他沒有辦法飛了或者是下來之後沒有辦法沒有辦法"},{"start":1772.302,"end":1788.484,"text":"順利的著地,還要再離開。可是你看這個天氣不可抗的因素,你要不要看一下這個圖表,這個是監察人的107年的統計報告,到113年的今天這個問題有沒有改善?一樣是東北季風,兩者的取消率差了10倍多,一個是馬祖的藍干,一個是台東的藍雨。"},{"start":1792.619,"end":1802.415,"text":"我想這就是因為飛機的大小造成的吧,因為你沒辦法飛大型的飛機,所以你那個售後面大家就沒有辦法停靠嘛,你看都要跟他用命去拼了,早期我們的組織,我們早期我們的組織是"},{"start":1804.873,"end":1827.793,"text":"黃建賓在拚借存過5歲以後,我們這階層的居民是黃建賓在拚借負擔期可以平安降落,在這個時間點還會發生這種事是很不可思議的。當然有很多的報告也沒有辦法給一個明確的結論,不過我們在105年合併就合併了這個超過9億元要改善我們蘭嶼的機場,到現在還沒有成效。"},{"start":1828.934,"end":1835.817,"text":"那假如院長、部長現在109點到現在,你看到這個紀錄到現在進度到哪邊?有沒有改善?這個部分是...謝謝黃委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}