{"error":false,"id":["153794"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153794,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153794","日期":"2024-06-11","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第17次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第17次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-11T16:51:00+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-11T17:08:10+08:00","影片長度":"00:17:10","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/065bcaf30f002e2bc00de3857236fe01eab218bf194c2065f338aa976a9cb1d921a9fc2fa37df4075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"16:51:00 - 17:08:10","會議時間":"2024-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第17次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。 \n二、6月7日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月11日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":479,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（16時51分）謝謝主席。有請行政院卓院長、陸委會邱主委。"],["主席：請卓院長、邱主委備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：先請教院長，兩岸關係有幾個重要原則，平等、互惠、尊嚴、交流，在這個前提之下，當然我們的政策規劃、政策思維，加上中國的態度，會決定兩岸關係的互動情況，行政院或者陸委會針對未來短期、中期、長期，短期是一年，中期大概是三、五年，長期的話是十年，有沒有相關的政策規劃或者情境的推演？最壞的狀況是怎樣，最好的狀況是怎樣，有沒有預做相關的沙盤推演？這部分我先請教邱主委的看法。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝邱委員的提問，非常感謝，事實上，現階段我們希望兩岸能夠進行正常、健康有序的交流。"],["邱委員志偉：這是海基會新任董事長鄭文燦他所說的，兩岸要穩健開放，然後要逐階段的開放，我們已經準備好了。海基會是陸委會授權的兩岸交流機關，是公權力行使機關；羅文嘉是副董事長也是秘書長，他說把橋梁架好、基礎打好，兩岸都能夠雙贏。這點我有點不同意，主權不可能雙贏嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["邱委員志偉：主權絕對是零和嘛！但是兩岸其他非主權的部分是可以追求雙贏的，就看雙方互動的狀況、政策規劃、兩岸領導人的政策思維。鄭文燦當海基會董事長，羅文嘉當副董事長兼秘書長，這算不算向對岸釋出一種善意？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，兩岸就是秉持賴總統所說的不卑不亢，維持現狀，以對話代替對抗，合作代替圍堵，在蔡總統的四大堅持跟賴總統的和平四大支柱底下，我們希望雙方的領導人都能夠善意對待，正視臺灣、中華民國這個民選政府的存在。"],["邱委員志偉：在過去八年來蔡總統打下基礎，加上賴總統所所提出的四大堅持、四大原則，我相信未來兩岸關係會比過去更穩定，這樣的結論您接受嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛委員有提到近期的部分我們怎麼改善，我想這個是一步一步來啦！賴總統也說過，關於兩岸學位生互相的交流，以及觀光的互相開放，我們已經做出了第一步，雖然這個第一步大家還不是完全滿意，但至少這是我們做到第一步，我們也希望兩岸的觀光，我們的團客去了，過程都能很順利、安全，品質都很好。"],["邱委員志偉：可操之在我們的部分我們已經做了，也訴諸在人事安排、政策規劃等等，如果中國還是一樣文攻武嚇，那我們當然不卑不亢，不能說用我們的熱臉去貼他的冷屁股，兩岸一定是平等、互惠、尊嚴，所以我希望能夠把持這個原則，在主權確保的狀況之下，穩健的推動兩岸有秩序、安全的交流。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝，謝謝主委。","接下來，我想請國防部顧部長、海委會管主委。想跟院長討論一下第一擊跟自衛權的辯證關係跟界線，譬如說，在邱國正部長時代，他對第一擊有明確的定義，他說只要航空、海航的實體、無人機艦或氣球侵入我領空，無需開槍開砲，我方就可以加以擊落，這大概是在今年年初的時候邱部長對於第一擊所做的定義。顧部長上任之後說我方沒有第一擊，我們只有自衛權的行使，只要共軍攻擊我們的航機艦設施或者攻擊我本外離島，以及未經許可進入12浬領空、領海，就可下令行使自衛權。當然，那個是ROE，就是交戰準則有相關的規定。這個部分我想請教部長，您跟邱部長對所謂第一擊的定義，以及未來在太平島守軍，太平島守軍是海巡署的官兵，如果中共進犯太平島，指揮權是隸屬於海委會管主委，還是國防部部長，還是授權太平島指揮官來做判斷？"],["顧部長立雄：太平島目前是屬於海巡。"],["邱委員志偉：對啊，所以我再請教管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果進入戰爭狀態的話，依海巡而言，他是要進入戰爭序列，戰爭序列國家有國家的制度。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你是用自衛權的方式，而不是過去邱國正部長所說的第一擊？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們是首次作戰跟防衛作戰，我們沒有第一擊，主動……"],["邱委員志偉：不是，你的自衛權跟幾個月前邱國正部長所說的第一擊的概念又有點不一樣。"],["顧部長立雄：我覺得邱部長當時談的第一擊，應該是在於我們遭受到攻擊的時候的自衛反擊的……"],["邱委員志偉：他沒有說攻擊喔！他只是說不需要發砲、不需要攻擊，只要進入我領空、領海，就可以擊落。"],["顧部長立雄：這個按照聯合國憲章第五十一條，應該是屬於自衛權的概念。"],["邱委員志偉：所以邱部長時代的第一擊概念已經不適用了，現在是用所謂您所說的自衛權的行使來作為國軍……"],["顧部長立雄：就我的理解，國軍從來沒有改變，我們是首次作戰，沒有主動採取第一擊的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：我們當然是首次作戰，但是你對於發動，比方說，你要對無人機……"],["顧部長立雄：發動自衛權反擊……"],["邱委員志偉：到底要不要發砲？如果沒有發砲、沒有發動攻擊，我們也可以對於進入我國領空的無人機或者機艦實行所謂的第一擊，那時候的概念跟現在有點不一樣……"],["顧部長立雄：就是對於沒有經過許可，任何的飛航實體進入到我們12浬的領空或領海的時候……"],["邱委員志偉：這個我還是請院長，這部分還是有點混淆啦！大概兩、三個月前的部長，跟換了顧部長之後，對於自衛權行使又不一樣，然後海巡指揮系統又不一樣，太平島是海巡管的，這個狀況到底要怎麼去整合，這部分院長可能要花點心思去做全盤的檢視。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，跟委員報告，因為我們也知道這種國防韌性、防衛韌性的問題，所以我們在內部是有討論過的，但是對外來講，我們覺得雙方還是要努力的促成穩定跟和平，但是我們在所謂的航空識別區、鄰接區或是領海，我們都有相當嚴謹的步驟跟程序……"],["邱委員志偉：我瞭解，有接戰準則……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個不會在遇到事情的時候有不一樣的處置，我們告訴我們海空官兵們的，一定是以保護國家安全為原則。"],["邱委員志偉：所以太平島守軍還是用自主防禦、自衛權的方式來對付相關的緊急狀況……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，捍衛國家的主權跟安全，這是第一個。"],["邱委員志偉：我希望海委會的海巡署跟國軍在面對中國的攻擊的時候，他們的處置方式是一致的。"],["顧部長立雄：是一致的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們是一致的，而且……"],["邱委員志偉：另外，請一下文化部李部長。中正紀念堂轉型經過了8年，顧部長，你也是人權律師，中正紀念堂轉型，三位部長都沒有辦法澈底貫徹，現在我們逐步來推動，一項一項來，可以做的、有共識的先做。請問中正紀念堂現階段工作重點為何？我想文化部是主管機關，有沒有可能撤除儀隊，在這個時間點？請問部長或院長。"],["顧部長立雄：我個人的看法是儀隊可以到自由廣場來操演。"],["邱委員志偉：不用在那邊……"],["顧部長立雄：如果可以的話，我們跟文化部再積極協調。"],["邱委員志偉：跟文化部積極協調？"],["顧部長立雄：協調當中，詳細的……"],["邱委員志偉：院長，你以院長的高度……"],["顧部長立雄：詳細的案件在協調當中，但是國防部這邊，就是我現在的立場……"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有時間表？"],["顧部長立雄：移到……"],["邱委員志偉：你說的也可以，但是不用全時候在那邊駐守……"],["顧部長立雄：但可以在自由廣場。"],["邱委員志偉：我想請教院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道文化部有個計畫在推動，但是我們想想看，國人對於這種儀隊的表演，如果是在忠烈祠，大家都沒有任何其他歧見，對於這些壯烈犧牲的官兵們……"],["邱委員志偉：對，是要去威權化，如果變成是國軍的展演或表演，對不對？然後……"],["卓院長榮泰：在那個場景底下……"],["邱委員志偉：而不是說作為一個威權機構、威權象徵的守護角色。"],["卓院長榮泰：我是說這種儀隊的展演，如果是在那樣的場景，譬如忠烈祠，表示對過去到現在壯烈犧牲的國軍們的一種尊敬，這樣子大家都沒有特別意見，是不是可以仿照這種方式來考慮？"],["邱委員志偉：不要守護獨裁者，你用國軍去守護獨裁者，這個我不能接受。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我說如果用忠烈祠的標準來看，確實是有改進的地方。"],["邱委員志偉：是啊！在戶外操演也可以，但你在他前面、在那個銅像前面，全時間駐守，好像你在擁護一個威權者、獨裁者。"],["卓院長榮泰：國防部有這樣的想法，而文化部也有一個計畫在推動，李部長，要不要跟委員說明一下？"],["李部長遠：好，其實我們在行政院有一個轉型正義推廣小組，文化部就是負責中正紀念堂的專案小組，每半年會開一次會，雖然我們下次會議是在10月，但我想我們會提早來開這個會。"],["邱委員志偉：好，你們提早就好，希望有進度，在最快的時間把它完成。","另外，幾個地方性的議題，請顧部長瞭解一下。橋頭新莊營區占地很大，但只有50員駐守，廢棄軍品都放在那邊，土地也是閒置，這個請你去重視一下。還有橋頭精忠新村，現在只有2戶在那邊，已經很破舊了，有沒有任何改建計畫？請顧部長先瞭解這兩項地方性議題。","李部長……"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分我跟委員報告一下，因為……"],["邱委員志偉：文化部李部長。沒關係，你請繼續。"],["顧部長立雄：它是左營的補給分庫，負責整個高雄地區，還有金門、澎湖的糧秣運補，所以整個高雄地區三軍部隊的各類補給品，還有……"],["邱委員志偉：這我瞭解啦！我有去現勘過兩次，就是說……"],["顧部長立雄：對，這部分我們評估過，現有房建物……總共土地是13.13公頃，現有房建物有60棟，其他還有一些訓練用的，所以……"],["邱委員志偉：部長，這個我都很瞭解，我只是希望你把營區的方向做一些調整，需要的保留，不需要的是不是可以跟橋頭新市鎮結合在一起？因為它的面積非常大，你去檢討一下空間配置，那裡的狀況我很瞭解，也謝謝國防部顧部長。","文化部李部長，所謂的文化幣，我希望能夠下修到13歲，國中生就開始有文化幣，增加的受惠學生大概5、60萬人，增加的預算也不多，只有六億多。另外再加上圖書券，針對國、高中生每年發500元圖書券，不但可以培養閱讀風氣、培養文化國力，又可以振興出版業，這個我估計起來，受惠的大概有180萬人左右，經費也大概是9億，你看9億的圖書券，加上文化幣把它做大，大概只需要15億，15億可以做那麼多事情。請問院長，這個您支持嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝委員，李部長有跟我談過文化幣過去執行的情況非常好，所以他在政策上、想法上如何把它擴大、落實，這個文化部現在已經在評估。"],["邱委員志偉：所以您支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：支持。"],["邱委員志偉：預算上請全力支持，還有圖書券的部分。好，謝謝李部長。","接下來請經濟部郭部長，還有國發會主委。","院長，請問護國產業的定義是什麼？它的標準在哪裡？以我的聯想，護國產業就是對國家的競爭力、對國家的生存發展至關重要，這就是護國產業，比方說半導體、比方說AI或者是五大信賴產業，包括軍工，包括安全監控，包括通訊，都是未來的護國產業，因為這些產業會讓國家競爭力提升，會讓國家有更強的國力。但是不能忽略了傳統製造業跟第一級的農漁業，我們對於第一級的農漁業……農漁業當然是屬於農業部，而傳統製造業包括金屬扣件、包括鋼鐵、包括工具機，受到匯率很大的影響，他們很少得到政府的鼓勵跟支持，你要在政策上面有更多的論述說政府是挺你的，我們不是只挺半導體、只挺護國產業而已。過去中小型企業集中在南部，我們要有更多的政策論述、有更多的政策流露，讓他們可以感受到政府是照顧他們的。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：關於這一點，對於中小企業或者是傳統產業應該有國家戰略層次的振興發展計畫，而且有全盤的發展藍圖，以免大家都說政府全部都針對半導體，針對這部分，請部長簡單說明一下。"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在對所有的中小微企業都會幫助他們進入生成式AI的利用、學習，然後幫助他們……"],["邱委員志偉：我是說要有部長或者院長的高度，針對中小企業政府要大力支持，針對傳統產業要大力支持，要有一個國家級的藍圖或者是一個完整的論述，才不會好像我們所有的國家資源都放在半導體及高科技產業，讓大家覺得有一點委屈，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，謝謝卓院長、鄭副院長及各部會首長列席答詢，現在作以下決定：下次會議繼續進行施政方針報告之質詢。","繼續處理復議案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":173,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-17","speakers":["江啟臣","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","黃建賓","劉建國","柯志恩","沈伯洋","萬美玲","吳沛憶","王鴻薇","范雲","王育敏","李坤城","林憶君","王美惠","邱志偉"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00003","1135401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第17次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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是。"},{"start":122.819,"end":125.301,"text":"兩岸就是秉持賴總統所說的不卑不亢。"},{"start":152.641,"end":155.33,"text":"為時現狀,以對話代替對抗,合作代替為主。"},{"start":156.345,"end":159.688,"text":"在過去8年來蔡總統打下基礎加上這個我們賴總統所提出的四大堅持四大原則我相信未來兩岸關係會比過去更穩定這樣結論您接受嗎?"},{"start":184.844,"end":207.975,"text":"剛剛我也有提到近期的部分,我們怎麼改善,我想這個是一步一步來啦。那個賴總統也說過,關於兩岸的學衛生互相的交流,以及觀光的互相的開放,那我們已經做出了第一步。雖然這個第一步還是不剩大家完全滿意,但至少這是我們做的第一步。我們也希望兩岸的觀光,我們的團客去了,"},{"start":208.855,"end":233.762,"text":"不過程都能很順利安全,品質都很好。 可是我們已經做了,對不對,也訴出在意人事安排、政治規劃等等。那如果中國還是一樣文攻武嚇,那我們也沒有,我們當然不背不抗嘛,對不對。不能說這個我們熱臉去貼在冷屁股,兩岸一定是平等互惠尊嚴嘛。所以我希望說能夠把持這個原則,在主權確保的狀況之下,穩健地推動兩岸的這個有秩序、安全的交流。"},{"start":237.873,"end":263.981,"text":"謝謝謝謝主委接下來我想請這個國防部副部長還有委會管主委還有委會主委這個想跟那個院長討論一下第一級跟自衛權的這個辯證關係跟他界限比如說你邱國正部長期待"},{"start":265.117,"end":285.799,"text":"他明確對第一級有定義,一公只要航空海航的實體,包括無人機、氣球進入領空,無需開槍開炮,我們方就可以加以擊落。 這大概是在今年年初的時候,邱部長對於第一級所做的定義。"},{"start":286.775,"end":313.477,"text":"那這個顧部長上任之後說我方沒有第一級我們只有自衛權的行使只要共機艦攻擊我們的航機艦設施或者攻擊我本外離島國軍需可進入12海里領空領海就可下令行使自衛權當然那個是ROE就是這個交戰準則有相關的規定這個部分我想請教一下這個部長"},{"start":314.761,"end":342.364,"text":"您跟那個邱部長所謂的第一級的定義以及未來在太平島守軍,太平島守軍是這個海巡署的官兵那當如果這個中共這個進犯這個太平島指揮權是隸屬於海委會管組委還是國防部這個邱部長還是授權我們指揮官,太平島指揮官來做判斷"},{"start":343.154,"end":348.295,"text":"太平島目前是屬於海巡。所以你是用自衛權的方式,而不是過去邱國正部長所說的第一級。"},{"start":366.567,"end":388.505,"text":"跟委員報告,我們是守勢作戰跟這個防衛作戰,我們...那你的自衛權跟你的自衛權跟幾個月前邱國正部長所說的第一集的概念就不一樣喔?我覺得邱部長大概當時談的第一集應該是在於我們遭受到攻擊的時候的自衛反擊的...他沒有說攻擊喔,他只要說沒有不需要發砲。"},{"start":390.589,"end":392.29,"text":"我的理解是國軍以來從來沒有改變,我們是首次作戰,沒有主動採取第一級的問題。"},{"start":413.78,"end":414.46,"text":"我還是請院長,這部分還是有點混淆。"},{"start":441.986,"end":452.968,"text":"那大概兩三個月前一個部長換了顧部長之後對這個自衛權行使又不一樣。然後海巡指揮系統又不一樣。太平島管海巡。"},{"start":454.452,"end":458.274,"text":"議員,因為我們也知道這種國防任性的問題防衛任性的問題所以我們在內部是有討論過的但是我覺得這個對外來講我們覺得雙方還是"},{"start":475.521,"end":478.902,"text":"我了解有階段準則好不好?所以太平島屬區還是以用這個自主防禦自衛權的方式來對付"},{"start":502.79,"end":503.79,"text":"另外請教部長跟國防部文化部的李部長"},{"start":527.693,"end":554.466,"text":"這個中正紀念堂轉型,我們經過了8年,您也是這個人權律師,這個中正紀念堂轉型,三位部長都沒有辦法徹底貫徹,我們逐步來推動,一項一項來,可以做的,有公司先來做,譬如說中正紀念堂現階段工作重點為何?我想文化部是主管機關,那有沒有可能撤除疑慮?"},{"start":556.138,"end":569.344,"text":"在這個時間點,我想請問部長或是院長。我個人的看法是,魚隊可以到自由廣場來操演。不用在那邊?如果可以的話,就我們跟文化部再進行協調。"},{"start":570.851,"end":583.571,"text":"跟文化部繼續協調。 協調當中。那,詳細的案件在協調當中。但是,我們這邊,國安部就是說,現在我的立場就是說,移到這個... 但是不要這個,全時候在這邊助手。"},{"start":586.496,"end":610.079,"text":"但可以在自由廣場,可以在自由廣場。 我想跟委員我們想想看,國人對於這種儀隊的表演,如果他是在中列時,大家都沒有任何其他的起義,對這些犧牲、壯烈犧牲的官兵們。 對,他只要迅威勸話,如果變成一個,譬如說這個國軍的展演,或是表演,對不對?"},{"start":611.195,"end":640.545,"text":"而不是說作為一個威權威權機構,威權一個象徵的一個守護的一個角色。我是說這種儀隊的展演,如果是在那樣的場景,鍾烈子表示對壯烈犧牲國軍,過去到現在大家一種尊敬,那這樣子大家都沒有特別意見,是不是仿照這種方式可以考慮?在守護著獨裁者,用國軍去守護獨裁者,這個我覺得我不能接受。"},{"start":641.175,"end":641.976,"text":"國防部有這樣的想法,文化部有一個計畫在推動。"},{"start":661.176,"end":685.035,"text":"李部長要不要跟委員說明一下?其實我們在行政院有一個轉型正義推廣的小組,文化部就是負責中正經驗堂的專案小組,每半年開一次會,雖然我們下一次會議是10月,我想我們會提早,提早來開這個會。提早就好,有進度,我希望最快的時間把它完成。"},{"start":685.575,"end":713.804,"text":"另外幾個地方性,就請顧部長了解一下,橋頭新章營區,它的營區很大,但是只有50元住手。這個廢棄軍品都放在那邊,對土地閒置,這個請你去重視一下。另外橋頭金鐘新村只有兩戶在那邊,已經很破舊了,沒有任何改建計畫。請顧部長先了解這兩項的地方性的議題。這個部分我跟委員報告一下,因為那個...文化部李部長。"},{"start":715.734,"end":716.396,"text":"沒關係那個你請繼續"},{"start":717.756,"end":747.756,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":748.016,"end":748.737,"text":"謝謝國防部副部長。 國防部李部長"},{"start":764.958,"end":785.472,"text":"所謂的這個文化幣我希望能夠下修到13歲國中生就開始有文化幣這個增加這個受惠大概五六十萬的這個學生增加預算也不多只有6億多另外再加上這個圖書卷圖書卷增加針對國高中生每年發500塊圖書卷培養閱讀工具培養文化國力"},{"start":788.516,"end":789.097,"text":"請問院長您支持嗎?"},{"start":806.825,"end":807.085,"text":"還有國發會主委"},{"start":839.133,"end":840.634,"text":"護國產業的定義是什麼?"},{"start":840.634,"end":846.437,"text":"如果我的聯想,護國產業對國家的競爭力、對國家的生存發展有至關重要。 比如說A.I或者是五代信賴產業,包括軍工、安全監控、通訊。"},{"start":862.244,"end":886.92,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":886.92,"end":887,"text":"這一點我告訴你"},{"start":910.798,"end":913.6,"text":"我們現在對所有的中小企業都會實施幫助他"},{"start":963.564,"end":966.665,"text":"好,謝謝。謝謝邱委員。謝謝卓院長。"},{"start":970.832,"end":985.034,"text":"報告委員會本日排定質詢的委員均與質詢完畢。謝謝卓院長、政府院長及各部會首長列席答詢。現在做以下決定。下次會議繼續進行施政方針報告之質詢。"},{"start":987.047,"end":1010.266,"text":"繼續處理復議案本院民進黨黨團針對第16次會議報告事項第18、39至43、84案之決定提出復議請公決案現做以下決定令定期處理報告院會本次會議進行到此為止現在散會"},{"start":1023.968,"end":1025.896,"text":"響鐘"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}