{"error":false,"id":["153809"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153809,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153809","日期":"2024-06-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-12T09:41:55+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-12T09:52:37+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:42","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8193601cd6352c23b25182e407f268492bc139eec4d40364b4f842b47c36b40ae4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:41:55 - 09:52:37","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（VASP）淪為詐騙工具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":178,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時41分）主席，麻煩請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：彭主委早。"],["彭主任委員金隆：早。"],["吳委員秉叡：有一句話叫做網路無國界，就是現在這個世代，只要上網你哪裡都可以去，所以剛剛我看到你們的報告裡面說，臺灣的個人幣商如果沒有經過核准就經營，將來是犯罪，就是要納管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，那麼臺灣有一些交易所，這個我瞭解，問題是，要買的人、要交易的人不在臺灣交易啊！他上網在全世界交易，這個你有辦法管嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個確實是國際上面的一個納管，所以我們在洗錢防制有一個規定，就是如果你在境外，在國內要營業要在這邊落地……"],["吳委員秉叡：沒有啊，它沒有要在臺灣營業啊！譬如說它是歐洲或是美國的一個虛擬貨幣交易所，是臺灣電腦的使用者自己上網去那邊跟它買，那這個你要怎麼管呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個確實是國際上……"],["吳委員秉叡：是要罰那個消費者（買幣的人）嗎？還是你可以罰到美國、歐洲這樣子的交易所？"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實在國界這個限制上，對於我們這種網路上面的交易，確實是一大挑戰啦！這個不只是臺灣所面對的問題，我想全世界都是一樣的。"],["吳委員秉叡：是，所以這一方面你要怎麼處理呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以現在在策略上，我們當然從國內這部分要先納管，至於國際上要透過國際合作這部分，我們可能再來處理，譬如像剛剛的報告也有提到，假設我們的金流流到海外去的話，那麼我們應該怎麼跟國外的這些政府機關做一個合作？這個確實是國際上應該要加強努力的，譬如說我們希望透過未來國際組織一起來參與這個問題看怎麼解決？"],["吳委員秉叡：比特幣詐欺或是洗錢的案例在全世界都非常地多，而且金額非常地大。我以前也曾經跟之前的金管會主委談過，這是我的觀點──比特幣的漲跌都是非常地巨額，中間有兩次是政府機關的行為啦！中國宣布它合法就飆漲，中國宣布它違法就暴跌，這樣子經過兩次的沖洗啊！所以我一直講說，這個東西的遊戲規則制定者不是臺灣，操縱者也不是臺灣，它原來最開始的時候為什麼交易會大量？被認為說是因為中國的高官要洗錢用的，所以這個比特幣才會有這麼大的交易量。","好，現在一個問題，因為網路無國界，所以我如果上網路去買，臺灣的幣商要經營，如果沒有合法，將來依照你們現在修的法律，那就是違法，這個我可以瞭解，可是這個能保護的只有一小部分啦！我不一定要跟臺灣的幣商買，我可以上網全世界哪裡去弄，所以如何讓國人正確的認識這裡面有非常巨大的風險，也是一個很重要的工作。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為這是現在全世界的潮流，政府也不得已就指定你們金管會作為主管機關，這會讓人家誤會這個東西要合法了，這個東西合法之後最大的問題，臺灣的民族性是賺錢沒有人會感謝政府，但是如果集體賠錢，大家就會去圍你，因為你是主管機關，政府管得不好，害我們這麼多人集體被騙錢，大家會去你那邊陳抗，你要瞭解我們臺灣有這樣特殊的民族性。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我覺得這裡面隱藏的風險非常大。話說回來，從另外一個角度來看，既然要管理，慢慢地，我現在不是講馬上，是很久的未來之後有沒有可能成立公家的交易所？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們在國際上還沒有看到，其實交易所大部分都不是政府在做的，包括現在的證券也大概都不是。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啦！我的意思是就算不是，至少它是交易所，類似證券交易所、期貨交易所。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，高度監管的。"],["吳委員秉叡：可能有沒有可能往這個方向走？"],["彭主任委員金隆：以現在的發展其實還滿原始的，還是控制發展，但是像這種全世界都是在發展過程當中……"],["吳委員秉叡：但是主委要知道，全世界主要的交易所就算是證券或其他的交易所，很多國家也都不是公家在做的，在我來看，臺灣的證券交易所、期貨交易所或OTC，因為有政府強力的主管、監管，而且它是一個特許行業，所以我覺得它還滿上軌道的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是我們未來努力的方向。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們現在想像十年後、二十年後有沒有可能，因為這裡面還可能涉及到稅率，還可能涉及到如何揭示、如何公告，讓大家能夠瞭解風險等等，如果你把它正規化之後，其實正規化也有正規化很多的好處。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，比如臺灣的交易所、櫃買就是很好的成功例子，透過櫃買或是交易所對於在那邊交易的上市櫃公司進行所謂的管理和控管，都是一個非常非常好的模式。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以未來也有可能朝這個方向去思考，既然未來要把它納管，將來是不是可以設計一套制度？當然，我是指很多年以後了，現在才剛開始，算是原始時代還在摸索、還在搞，但是其實針對虛擬市場的交易，金管會之前也是一直採取正面的看法，另外還有證券化的問題，所以我覺得將來如果能夠朝這方面制定完整的制度，也不見得不好，請主委先回座。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：接下來請法務部徐次長及警政署黃副局長。"],["主席：請徐政次、黃副局長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：兩位早。因為我來自法界，就我所知道，現在警界也好、檢察界也好、甚至法院也好，都為了詐欺案件多到這個程度痛苦不堪，甚至有很多人，當然是不是這個因素只是猜測，因為詐欺案件太多了辦不完，結果有人辦到案牘勞形，上次不是有檢察官發生輕生的事件嗎？責任感太大，案子辦不完……"],["徐次長錫祥：士林地院。"],["吳委員秉叡：士林地院司法官。如果是這樣的話，到底有什麼方式可以降低詐欺的案件量？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，之所以今天我們要動員所有的部會進來，就是要從源頭管制，因為從源頭管制、加強監管，很多的虛擬人頭才會減少，歹徒利用這些來擷取民眾金錢的管道就會受到控制，這是從源頭管制。再來，我們司法單位要充分合作……"],["吳委員秉叡：今年的案件數有比較減少嗎？還是增加更多？"],["徐次長錫祥：有，今年1月到4月的案件量已經少了大概十幾……"],["吳委員秉叡：但是4、5月又上來了。"],["徐次長錫祥：5月份的資料我還沒拿到。"],["吳委員秉叡：次長、副局長，我覺得這裡面有一個很大問題是，我舉個例子，現在網路上面的這些廣告常常用名人，誰越出名，Meta上馬上就出現這位名人股票投資群組等廣告，你們之前一直有說可以跟這些跨國公司談條件，談怎麼管理，韓國、日本現在除了在國內提起訴訟之外，還跑到美國去告Meta，尤其是日本的富有階級，他在日本告它求償1塊日圓，他不是真的要錢，而是要Meta認錯，除了在國內提出訴訟之外，還跑到美國跟Meta註冊公司那邊的法院對它提起民事訴訟，請求兩千多億日幣的賠款。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我們在詐欺犯罪危害防制條例已經把廣告這個部分也要納管。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啦！但是這些跨國的大公司有要鳥你嗎？坦白講就是這樣子，它已經大到沒辦法形容了，你知道嗎？落地國的法律它也不見得要遵守，當然之前一直跟它溝通有一些效力，如果要真正防止這個東西要拿出肩膀出來，不能夠因為它是國際巨大的公司，你們就對它不能夠提出什麼比較強硬的作法。"],["徐次長錫祥：跟委員報告，主責不是我們法務部，是數發部，今天我看到新聞出來了，這些相關的業者已經提出所謂的日出條款，他們已經有……"],["吳委員秉叡：沒有啊！媒體講日出還要一年。"],["徐次長錫祥：對，他們也有感受到如果這個法律過的話，其實對他們來講，在某些程度上是有一些約制作用，我希望大家一起努力，不是只有我們在查緝而已，各方面都要努力，這樣子效果才會……"],["吳委員秉叡：要從根源斷，不然案件越來越多是壓垮整個司法體系。"],["徐次長錫祥：這個我認同。"],["吳委員秉叡：司法體系的工作人員也是很辛苦，每天查的案子都是類似的，而且這個都有一窩蜂的現象，民國80年我剛當法官的時候，那時候刑事案件最多的是吸安非他命和簽賭六合彩、大家樂，所以都是一時、一時、一時，現在最多的應該就是詐欺案件，所以大家要努力。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員的質詢。","接著請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-17","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林楚茵","李坤城","葛如鈞","王世堅","羅明才","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案\n與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（ 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謝謝所以我是覺得這裡面隱藏的風險非常的大好 那話說回來從另外一個角度來看那既然要管理慢慢的慢慢的我現在不是講馬上很久的未來之後有沒有可能成立公家的交易所"},{"start":252.214,"end":271.716,"text":"這個我們在國際上還沒有看到但是我們很多其實我們交易所大部分都不是政府在做包括我們現在證券也大家都不是對啦那我的意思是說就算不是至少是交易所吧類似證券交易所期貨交易所有沒有可能有沒有可能往這個方向走呢"},{"start":272.416,"end":288.041,"text":"現在以現在發展其實還蠻原始的還是自發展但是我們像這種都是全世界都在發展過程當中但是主委你要知道全世界主要的交易所就算是證券啊什麼其他的交易所很多國家也都不是公家在做的是的那"},{"start":289.124,"end":316.703,"text":"台灣在我來看台灣的證券交易所、期貨交易所或是說這個OTC因為有政府強力的主管、監管而且它是一個特許行業所以我覺得它還蠻上軌道的啊是 這也是我們未來努力的方向我事實上現在想像10年後、20年後有沒有可能因為這裡面還可能涉及到稅率還可能涉及到如何的揭示如何的公告讓這大家能夠了解風險"},{"start":317.904,"end":346.73,"text":"等等這個 如果你把它一個正規化之後其實正規化有正規化很多的好處啊是的 像比如說像台灣的交易所櫃買就是很好成功的例子是透過櫃買或是交易所對於一些在那邊交易的上市櫃公司進行進行所謂的管理跟控管都是一個非常非常好的模式好當然所以這個未來也有可能朝這方向思考就是既然如果將來要把它納管"},{"start":347.827,"end":359.397,"text":"那將來是不是設計一套制度當然我是指很多年後現在還開始在算是原始時代還在那邊摸索還在那邊搞但是"},{"start":361.843,"end":385.843,"text":"其實另外一方面虛擬資產的交易金管會之前也是一直採取正面的看法所以也要另外還有一個證券化的問題所以這個是將來我覺得如果朝這方面能夠制定完整的制度也不見得是不好啊是好那先請你回座我們請這個法務部徐次長跟警政署的這個黃副局長徐政策黃副局長"},{"start":389.403,"end":397.32,"text":"委員長早兩位我所知道因為我來自法界現在"},{"start":398.55,"end":426.9,"text":"警界也好、檢察界也好甚至法院也好都為了這個詐欺欺犯罪多到這個程度痛不堪甚至有很多人當然這個是是不是這個因素這是一個猜測因為詐欺欺犯罪太多了辦不完就有的人辦到暗賭勞刑上次不是有檢察官發生輕生的事件嗎責任感太大然後案子辦不完士林地檢嘛還是士林地院、司法官那如果是這樣的話"},{"start":428.321,"end":432.882,"text":"到底有什麼方式可以降低這個詐欺的案件的這個量"},{"start":434.81,"end":463.602,"text":"報告委員之所以今天我們要動員所有的部會進來就是從源頭管制因為從源頭管制的話加強監管那很多的虛擬的人頭的才會減少那歹徒利用這些來擷取民眾的金錢那管道就會受到控制這是從源頭去那再來的話我們當然我們要我們司法單位要充分的合作案件數今年"},{"start":464.562,"end":483.187,"text":"的數量有比較減少嗎?還是增加更多?今年一到四月的案件量已經少了大概十幾...但是五月又上來了這個五月份的資料我還沒拿到市長還有副局長我覺得這裡面一個很大的問題是說現在網路上面這些廣告它的廣告它..."},{"start":487.403,"end":515.38,"text":"常常我舉個例子常常用名人誰越出名這個Meta上面就馬上就出現那個名人的這個股票投資群組等等這些的廣告那之前就一直有說可以跟這一些跨國的公司談條件談怎麼管理我跟你說韓國跟日本現在除了在國內提起訴訟之外還跑到美國去告Meta尤其是日本的這個"},{"start":517.563,"end":520.044,"text":"報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告"},{"start":545.319,"end":560.421,"text":"對啦 但是這些跨國的大公司齁 它也要鳥你嘛坦白講是這樣子啦 台灣的法律它大到大到沒辦法形容你知道嗎 落地國的法律它也不見得要遵守啊那當然之前一直跟它溝通"},{"start":561.75,"end":589.997,"text":"有些效力如果真正要防止這個東西要拿出肩膀出來不能夠是因為他是國際的這個巨大的這個公司然後你們就對他不能夠提出什麼比較強硬的做法嗎我跟委員報告我想這個當然主責不是我們法務部是書發部今天我看到新聞出來了就是這些相關的業者已經提出所謂的日出條款"},{"start":590.888,"end":615.548,"text":"他們已經有感受到如果這個法律過的話其實對他們來講在某些程度裡面是有一些抑制的作用我希望大家一起努力不是只有我們在查緝而已各方面都要努力要從根源斷不然案件越來越多是壓垮整個司法體系司法體系的工作人員也是很辛苦"},{"start":616.489,"end":639.243,"text":"每天查的案子都是類似的而且這個都有窩蜂的現象民國八十年我剛剛當法官的時候那時候刑事案件最多是西安美搭面跟千篤六合彩、大加勒所以都一死一死一死現在最多的應該就是詐欺案件了是所以大家努力吧是好 謝謝謝謝吳秉樂委員的質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}