{"error":false,"id":["153813"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153813,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153813","日期":"2024-06-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-12T09:52:48+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-12T10:04:25+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:37","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8199d499cde0cfe39eb182e407f268492bca04e565a7cce14efc219c298096853c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:52:48 - 10:04:25","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（VASP）淪為詐騙工具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":233,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時52分）主席、各位先進，有請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：你好。今天我們談到虛擬貨幣的管理，虛擬貨現在有兩萬兩千多種，對吧？你要管哪一些？代儲，你要不要管？代購，你要不要管？冷錢包，你要不要管？你能不能講一下你要管的範圍有哪些？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，剛剛在報告裡面有提到，我們有分階段來納管，我們現在已經針對所要管制的範圍有訂定一定的範圍，比如它們在做之間的交換、幣別之間的轉換或是代為傳送之類的，我們都有明定現在的範圍。沒有錯，誠如委員講的，所謂虛擬資產是一個還在演進中的概念，還有包括很多技術上，比如任何人都可以發一個幣，但是它有沒有價值是要市場來認定，這也是我們常常看到很多詐騙集團可以用來詐騙很重要的點，這是我們未來的挑戰，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：所以原則上以後什麼都管就對了，是不是？我現在告訴你，去（112）年臺灣高等法院舉辦過座談，它說金管會要管的是詐欺取財罪或詐欺得利罪，請問你是哪一個？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在金管會所主管的範圍是按照洗防法裡面的法遵聲明。"],["賴委員士葆：是哪一個？還是兩個都管？詐欺取財或是詐欺把錢放進來，或是詐欺得利，詐欺之後去賺錢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：詐欺的部分應該是由民、刑法來處理，現在金管會主政的是洗錢，目前是以洗錢防制作為我們的管理。"],["賴委員士葆：那就比較偏詐欺得利，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是洗錢，違反洗錢。"],["賴委員士葆：你現在雞同鴨講，我是問你這兩個其中哪一個，你跟我講洗錢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是現在金管會所納管……"],["賴委員士葆：洗錢跟這兩個有什麼關係？"],["彭主任委員金隆：洗錢防制法裡面有規定洗錢的定義，現在就是根據洗錢防制法裡面，我們是主政單位，未來假設有一個虛擬資產專法的時候，我們才會真的進入到機構管理。"],["賴委員士葆：現在第6頁、第7頁講到階段一，包括個人幣商，應先向金管會完成洗錢防制法遵後，才能夠從業，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，對！"],["賴委員士葆：這個很明顯就是詐欺得利，感覺就是這個樣子啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：他要取得洗錢的登記，他必須要完備洗錢防制法上的要求。"],["賴委員士葆：好，但是你在第11頁有講到，沒有依規定登記而從事事業的VASP要課以刑事責任，個人幣商的錢包交易轉入黑市，你怎麼查暗網交易？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那部法律現在正送到大院審議中，是洗錢防制法的修正，我們現在是根據洗錢防制法課以罰款，未來才會課以刑責，為了加重這樣的處罰，所以也希望未來大院能夠支持這樣的修法。"],["賴委員士葆：案子送進來了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該已經送進來了，對！"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候送進來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：5月初已經進到立法院。"],["賴委員士葆：叫什麼名字？"],["彭主任委員金隆：洗錢防制法的修正。"],["賴委員士葆：金管會的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，洗錢防制法是法務部主政。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！法務部的，請次長講一下。"],["徐次長錫祥：今年5月9日已經送到大院，而且已經初審剩下兩個條文，就是第五條……"],["賴委員士葆：我再請教金管會彭主委，online game的遊戲幣要不要報備？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我們……"],["賴委員士葆：遊戲幣現在很紅喔！有一個朋友告訴我，玩遊戲幣賺了一棟房子欸！"],["彭主任委員金隆：容我去瞭解，不過，我們現在主要是管虛擬幣，對遊戲幣，我們現在是……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就我的理解，現在是沒有在我們現行的規範範圍內。"],["賴委員士葆：我現在就告訴你，我要出門以前，還有人告訴我，他玩遊戲幣不到半年的時間賺了一棟房子，這麼厲害！你們去看一下，怎麼會這麼厲害？","我們來看新光集團，我沒有要替它講話的意思，在兩年前傑仕堡已經被處罰300萬，保險局局長也在這裡，不同的主委，現在換一個主委，又開始來了，它現在1億交保了，駐會檢察官大肆搜索，昨天政論節目噼里啪啦在討論這件事情，他們就定調這是政治辦案，法務部次長要不要解釋一下？徐次長，政治力介入，因為覆議案到了，柯建銘一直講只要找6個起義來歸，鎖定民眾黨啊！以這裡面來講，吳東進就是吳欣盈的爸爸，鎖定他這樣比較快，有沒有這一回事啊？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們檢察官辦案絕對是秉公處理，不會有任何的政治力介入，我想這個是誤會，對個案的話，我不方便在講。"],["賴委員士葆：昨天call-in節目一直講這個題目，一直這樣講耶！"],["徐次長錫祥：檢察官依法辦理絕對是公正的。"],["賴委員士葆：依法辦理，真的嗎？常常要起訴誰就起訴誰，變成是這樣，常常也有政治指導，難道沒有嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，不會。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道你一定說不會啊，是不是？彭主委，你要不要解釋一下？這個兩年前才罰了300萬，怎麼現在又開始處理他呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，也就是……"],["賴委員士葆：局長要不要講一下？局長，到底這兩年來發生什麼變化？除了覆議案跑出來以外，我不知道有什麼變化？"],["施局長瓊華：這應該是兩年前就已經……"],["賴委員士葆：處罰啦！300萬啊！同樣一件事啊！處罰不夠？"],["施局長瓊華：因為刑事的部分是檢察官在辦的，我們並沒有介入。"],["賴委員士葆：所以兩年前拖到現在才起訴，現在才辦？主委？"],["彭主任委員金隆：金管會有個滿特別的地方，我們有駐會檢察官制度，我們辦理金融檢查時，金融檢查是根據保險法裡面的一些法規進行檢查，當我們發覺到這裡面的內容有狀況，我們會跟駐會檢察官討論，就會按照我們的標準程序移送給檢調，接下來就會由檢調處理。"],["賴委員士葆：主委啊，你到現在的位置，還沒有看到你淪陷的跡象，經濟部長郭智輝就已經淪陷了，一開始講核二、核三要延役，跟民進黨立委吃了飯、跟卓榮泰吃了一頓飯，回來馬上改口說都不要了！我希望你要扛起肩膀。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們都是依法辦理。"],["賴委員士葆：你是主委喔！要令人尊敬，你不要服膺於政治，外界就有這樣的聲音啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我一定是善盡我們的職責。"],["賴委員士葆：你們有駐會檢察官，請問駐會檢察官要不要聽法務部的指揮？請問徐次長，要不要？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有！"],["賴委員士葆：沒有？"],["徐次長錫祥：對！"],["賴委員士葆：不用跟你報告？"],["徐次長錫祥：不用、不用。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有跟你報告？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["賴委員士葆：好，法務部長官請回。","最後一個我再請教一下，保險修改行政命令，原來7月1號生效，比如說我住院治療，花了30萬，但是我買了3個保單，一個10萬、一個20萬、一個30萬，在過去我都可以申請，用副本就可以申請，就可以拿60萬回來，你們體恤產險、體恤這些商人，7月1號以後開始要改，最多他只能夠領到30萬，這個很奇怪，你不覺得嗎？你們怎麼這麼體貼產險商？為什麼這樣子呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可能委員有點誤會。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼誤會？本來就是這樣啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：主要是因為保險有一個非常基本的原則叫損害填補原則，我們過去發覺到有很多人可能因為買了多張副本理賠，而且上次有個案件，檢察官也直接指責為什麼我們的商品一個人可以取得這麼高的理賠，為了落實保險業的損害填補原則，我們過去第一階段曾經規定最多只能買3張，但還是有這樣的問題，所以我們經過討論以後就採損害填補原則，希望未來都以正本理賠，回歸正軌。當然我們也聽到業者的意見，認為這個東西可能需要更多的調適，保險局跟業者討論的時候，也迅速作出回應，我們願意給你們一些時間來調整，我想這部分我們一定會讓市場、讓消費者安心，剛才你說的醫療險可以買得到。"],["賴委員士葆：主委，說到底你還是體貼產險商，怕他們損失太多，生病的人難道願意生病嗎？我故意去生一個病，賺這個錢，難道會有人這樣嗎？但是就買了保單、保費也交了，他可能一年才生病一次，多賺一點、多領一點錢，你們還這樣處理，有時候拿回來還要補身體、幹什麼的，你們也不可以給他？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們的商品很多類型，剛剛的規範只有實支實付，還有很多定額型的商品，比如說我們最常見的防癌保險，可能一罹癌，不管你的醫療費用是多少，就直接給付一個金額，也可以滿足很多消費者需求，其實商品是多元的，只是實支實付發生了一些實務上的……"],["賴委員士葆：好，因為我的時間到了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有、沒有。我問你最後一句話，過去買的呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們不追溯，我們都是新的商品才會開始受規範。"],["賴委員士葆：所以我過去買3張，花30萬，我可以領60萬，照領？"],["彭主任委員金隆：都沒有問題。對，就按照原來的契約處理。"],["賴委員士葆：但是以後就沒有了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對！以後新的商品裡面，我們希望都以正本理賠，如果你選擇實支實付都以正本理賠，但是如果有其他需求，可以選定額給付的商品，應該也沒有問題，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢。","接著請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-17","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林楚茵","李坤城","葛如鈞","王世堅","羅明才","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案\n與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（ VASP 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但是你在第11頁有講到沒有因為規定從事事業的VASP要刻意行事責任那個人的幣商包、個人的錢包交易轉入黑市暗網交易你怎麼查"},{"start":199.326,"end":208.971,"text":"現在我們現在的話那個法律現在正在送在大院審議中是《洗錢防制法》的修正我們現在是根據《洗錢防制法》裡面我們現在是可以罰款"},{"start":209.98,"end":237.071,"text":"的未來才會可以行責我們為了要加重這樣的一個處罰所以也希望說未來大院能夠支持這樣一個修正你案子送進來了嗎?應該已經送進來了對什麼時候送進來?這個我們是由5月初已經進到立法院叫什麼名字?《洗錢防制法》的修正修正草案?對經國會的?不是,《洗錢防制法》是法務部的主政對啊,法務部的啊好,那個市長要不要講一下"},{"start":241.735,"end":269.293,"text":"包委員今年的5月9日已經送到大院而且已經出審剩下兩個條文兩個條文就是第6條第5條好 我再請教這個金融的彭主委那個Online Game的遊戲幣要不要報備現在我們遊戲幣現在很…很…有朋友告訴我玩遊戲幣專門移動房子"},{"start":273.952,"end":286.457,"text":"這個容我去了解不過我們現在的話我們主要是管那個虛擬幣那遊戲幣我們現在是就我的理解現在是沒有在我們現在現行我現在告訴你我要出門以前還有人告訴我他就玩遊戲幣不到半年的時間賺了一棟房子這麼厲害去看也來啊這麼厲害好啦我們來看"},{"start":303.335,"end":327.226,"text":"新光集團我沒有替他講話的意思喔在兩年前捷四堡已經被處罰了300萬保險局的局長在這裡不同的組委現在換一個組委又開始又來了兩年又跑他他現在一一交保了組委檢察官大肆搜索"},{"start":328.837,"end":358.156,"text":"那個政論節目昨天一趴拉兩趴一兩趴在討論這個事情他們就定調了說這個是政治辦案那個法務部次長要不要解釋一下徐市長政治律戒律因為復原到了柯建民一直講說只要找六個其餘來歸鎖定民眾黨啊這裡面來講吳東進就是吳世穎的爸爸鎖定他那你快點有沒有這個意思啊"},{"start":358.783,"end":369.849,"text":"法務委員 我們檢察官辦案絕對是秉公處理不會有任何的政治利益介入我想這個是誤會 那個案的話我不方便昨天抗議節目一直講這個題目呢一直這樣講檢察官依法辦理絕對是依法辦理這麼厲害每天都說要告訴要起訴誰就起訴誰每天都政治指導 更沒有"},{"start":384.889,"end":409.337,"text":"報告委員不會我知道你一定說不會這個彭主委能不解釋一下你們主委檢察班這個兩年前才罰了三百萬怎麼現在開始又處理他呢報告委員局長講一下局長到底是兩人來發生什麼變化除了報告委員跑出來以後我不知道是什麼變化"},{"start":410.984,"end":422.013,"text":"報告委員這應該是兩年前就已經...那個...處罰啦!對阿!這兩...三百萬啦!阿同樣一定是啊!處罰不夠!因為刑事的部分是那個檢察官在辦的我們並沒有介入所以...所以按說兩年前拖到現在才起訴所以現在才...才辦"},{"start":434.847,"end":461.825,"text":"主委啊報告委員其實金管會有個蠻特別我們有個駐會檢察官制度我們辦理金融檢查我們金融檢查是根據保險法裡面的一些法規去進行檢查當我們發掘到這裡面的內容如果說我們會跟我們的駐會檢察官裡面討論然後接下來我們就認為有這個我們就會按照我們的標準程序移送給檢調接下來這個就會由檢調"},{"start":465.768,"end":483.287,"text":"你到現在為止還沒有看到你淪陷的跡象啦經濟部長郭志輝就已經淪陷了一開始講合二合三要研議我要吃到跟民進黨立委吃的飯總統他也吃了一頓飯回來馬上改口都不要了我希望你"},{"start":484.79,"end":513.406,"text":"要扛起肩膀你是主委喔要令人尊敬啊你不要忽異你政治啊我們一定是要善盡我們的職責你們的諸位檢察官請問請問諸位檢察官要不要聽法務部的指揮要不要請問市長市長許市長要不要阿偉沒有沒有對不要跟你報告不用不用不要跟你報告是"},{"start":514.407,"end":515.53,"text":"哈!那個!"},{"start":517.085,"end":540.262,"text":"法務部的長官請回答最後一個我再請教一下你保險修改行政命令了原來7月要生效就是我買一個比如說我住院做治療花了30萬但是我買了三個保單一個10萬一個20萬一個30萬再過去我都可以申請喔用副本就可以申請我就可以拿60萬回來阿你們體恤慘險吧體恤這些"},{"start":546.466,"end":548.367,"text":"其實報告委員其實可能委員你有點誤會"},{"start":565.578,"end":585.197,"text":"主要是因為其實保險有個非常基本的原則叫損害填補原則因為我們過去發覺到有很多人他可能因為買了多張副本理賠而且也引發了上次有個案件檢察官也直接的指責說為什麼我們的商品可以一個人他可以取得這麼高的理賠"},{"start":586.058,"end":611.595,"text":"那我們為了落實保險業的損害填補原則所以我們過去呢第一階段我們曾經規定說最多只能買三張還是有這樣的問題所以我們經過討論以後呢我們就採損害填補原則希望未來都以正本理賠回歸正軌當然我們也聽到業者的意見認為說這個東西可能需要更多的調適所以保險局在面對業者討論的時候也迅速的做出回應說我們願意給你們一個時間來做個調整我想這部分我們一定會讓市場"},{"start":616.759,"end":640.637,"text":"讓消費者安心你乾脆一條險可以買得到主委你這說的到底還是體貼慘險傷啊你怕他們損失太多這個生病的他難道因為你生病嗎我故意去生一個病賺這個錢搞得人家這樣啊但是我去買保單我就買了啊我保費交了他可能生病一年才生一次啊給他賺一手啊給他借一手啊你也給他拿"},{"start":642.599,"end":666.835,"text":"有時候拿回來還要補身體還要幹什麼的你們這樣子不可以給他就報告委員其實我們商品有很多類型剛剛規範就是只有十之十富像比如我們商品還有很多定額型的商品像比如我們最常見的防癌保險你可能一離來他也不管醫療費用他就直接給付一個金額也可以滿足很多消費者的需求其實商品是多元只是十之十富發生了一些"},{"start":671.858,"end":693.055,"text":"那過去買的咧?我們不追溯我們都是新的商品才會開始所以過去買的我買3張我花30萬我可以領60萬照理但是以後就沒有了以後我們新的商品裡面我們希望他都以正本理賠如果你選10支10副都以正本但是如果你有其他需求可以選定了幾副的商品應該也沒有問題謝謝謝謝賴氏鮑文的資訊"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}