{"error":false,"id":["153822"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153822,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153822","日期":"2024-06-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-16","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":16,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-12T10:14:04+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-12T10:24:53+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:49","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819d2adb4845cb5de5b0fec08313b105ec0a04e565a7cce14efa9dba0c141707bd85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:14:04 - 10:24:53","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及6月13日兩天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":385,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時14分）謝謝主席，請主委及部長。"],["主席：請主委及郭部長。"],["張委員啓楷：主委及部長是這次內閣的新亮點，大家對你們算是肯定，有很多的期許，不過現在看起來好像被電綁住了，對不對？我們先看一下你們的老朋友黃仁勳怎麼說，記者問他會不會擔心臺灣缺電？你的朋友黃仁勳怎麼說？他說臺灣需要比較多的電，那未來幾年如果擴大對臺灣投資呢？黃仁勳說電力限制當然是個挑戰，所以這對兩位是很大的挑戰，其實有沒有缺電，不是用嘴巴講，它應該是科學問題，對不對？至少兩個事情要做到：第一個，你們任內不能大停電。第二個，你要推AI、半導體，產業要你跟它講電力是夠的，你看像黃仁勳，他看到就覺得擔憂，這就是你要解決的問題了。","我直接問部長一個這幾天大家都在問你的問題，你看一下，有人說你對核電的態度一變再變，你壓力太大嗎？你變了嗎？我唸給你聽，你先看一下螢幕。4月16日準部長郭智輝說核電廠要不要延役取決於全面評估；5月15日你說核能是乾淨的能源，核電部分是由多數人同意來做決定；最重要的是6月5日，一個禮拜前你就站在這邊嘛，對不對？那時候我問你，你怎麼說？你說我們會考慮，但條件是要安全，如果安全無虞，法令也許可，就要做，更重要的是下面那句話，如果修法、安檢都通過了，核二、核三可以用20年到30年。最大的轉變其實就是6月6號那場了，卓院長和你，還有主委應該也在嘛，那一場都有在場，對不對？卓院長那天宴請了民進黨立委，那一天你被震撼教育了，你後來改口說核電是沒有考慮的一部分，非核家園的態度沒有改變，這會不會轉得太大？人民現在都在看喔，也對你們有期許，以前大家覺得民調很高或者有期許的郭智輝部長，是一個專業、務實、負責任的經濟部長，可是你現在是被政治、被意識形態綁架了，有沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個還是一樣，我的前提就是非核家園，沒有變，只是我那時在講的時候沒有講這一句話，所以我的用詞不夠精準，這點我非常抱歉，但是我的意思是非核家園是沒有變的，但是其他的這些我是在敘述假設性的問題，也就是說今天如果我們講說這個法已經解掉了，然後我們去盤點、去看，它的安全無虞，然後核安會也通過了，認為它是可行的，所以我是在說前面都有前提啦，現在大概很多的朋友比較不會注意前面的那個假設。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你沒有很委屈、沒有被震撼教育吧？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有喔？沒有被震撼教育？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：我問你一下，你知道歷任的經濟部長任期最短的是誰嗎？現在大家在關心你，大家對你有期望，希望你當久一點啦！"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：其實產業界希望你當久一點。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：可是你知道嗎？經濟部長有的任期很短喔，像左邊這一位宗才怡，你知道宗才怡做幾天嗎？你不知道？"],["郭部長智輝：不知道。"],["張委員啓楷：48天，你應該不是誤闖叢林的小白兔啦，你經驗那麼豐富，企業界對你有期待嘛，我期待你可以像王美花一樣，王美花當了快4年，可是你到底是一個短命的經濟部長，還是一個長命的經濟部長，這個很重要。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：一方面是任期長不長。第二個，有沒有幫產業界解決問題。我剛才說的，你任期內絕對不要發生大停電，不要讓產業界的人對你說你講的是謊話，或者你不瞭解我，我根本不敢投資，這兩個事情一出現，我跟你講，你民調就掉下來了，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：不要大停電。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：要讓產業界講真心話，真的幫他們解決問題，期待你像王美花的任期，不是宗才怡，可是相對地，你要幫產業界解決問題，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["張委員啓楷：不要讓人家覺得以前那個務實、專業的郭智輝不見了，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你要不要幫你的老朋友打打氣？他可以解決剛剛講的那兩個問題，不會大停電並且滿足企業界的用電嗎？用電不只要足夠，還要是穩定的電、低碳的電，你覺得你的老朋友郭智輝部長可以做得到嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個部分我們幾乎每天都有溝通，我對他信心十足。"],["張委員啓楷：有信心喔？好，所以希望你可以做久一點，而且可以解決問題，可是我剛才說過了，電夠不夠是科學問題，不是意識形態跟政治的問題，它也是簡單的數學問題。我們來看，你的挑戰在這裡，現在核三廠的1號機7月27日要停了，明年5月2號機也要停了，減少了7%的電力，我們的電力少了7%，然後你自己講說過去5年我們的平均用電每一年是成長2.03%，郭部長你自己說的，加上AI進來之後，AI需求爆發的影響，我們臺灣每一年增加的電力是3%，到2029年，你算看看，用5年來算就好了，我們的電力至少要增加16%，少了7%，增加16%，你去哪裡生這麼多電出來？所以那時候的解方是把核電當成一個備援的電力，對不對？第二個，現在看起來你的電要生出來，是從大潭電廠的7號機跟9號機，對不對？可是現在看起來，三接到現在都還沒建完，你到時候會不會接不上來？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，三接在明年4月就會建完。"],["張委員啓楷：4月？"],["郭部長智輝：明年的4月。"],["張委員啓楷：這個有把握吧？"],["郭部長智輝：這個有。"],["張委員啓楷：不要用那個……"],["郭部長智輝：不會啦！"],["張委員啓楷：現在看起來四接跟五接環評還有問題。"],["郭部長智輝：我去看過了。"],["張委員啓楷：你有去看過了？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["張委員啓楷：下軍令狀喔，明年4月一定要夠喔！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：足夠的話，三接有成的話，大潭電廠的7號機跟9號機才有天然氣可以用喔。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["張委員啓楷：要不然的話，你就真的是缺電了，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["張委員啓楷：我們再看下一個，除了四接、五接要真的接上來之外，還有一個問題，就是低碳。AI需要穩定的電，而且是低碳的，對不對？現在連環境部部長都講，2050年淨零碳排臺灣不可能達到。另外，我提醒你一個點，發展產業之外，臺灣人的健康也要顧到，對不對？我相信你有這個體認，主委跟部長應該都很注意這個，臺灣人的肺是比較耐操嗎？臺灣現在的用電1年是3,000億度，製造了多少、產生了多少的碳？1.27億噸，我們現在肺癌跟肺腺癌的發生率是全世界第十五名，罹癌的、死掉的，致死率最高的也是肺癌跟肺腺癌，可是現在看起來你的替代方案，核電停掉了，低碳的核電停掉了，現在都是天然氣，都是燃煤，甚至有一個內幕很重要，前幾天你還把麥寮的燃煤電廠續約了，它是民間的，你本來跟它在5月就停止合約了，對不對？但你跟它續約到明年底，那個是用燃煤發電啊，我是嘉義人，那個對嘉義地區、對雲林地區、對臺中、彰化地區民眾的健康影響是很大的喔！我現在提醒……"],["郭部長智輝：這個是……"],["張委員啓楷：我現在要提醒你，要有足夠的電、穩定的電、低碳的電的同時，也要顧到人民的健康，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好的，報告委員，那個是雲林縣政府的要求。"],["張委員啓楷：雲林縣政府的要求？"],["郭部長智輝：是，減煤的要求啦。"],["張委員啓楷：這方面我……"],["郭部長智輝：合約是他們……"],["張委員啓楷：問題是買是你們台電在買啊！你如果為了人民的健康，其實我覺得它是那麼古老的電廠，而且燒的是煤，為什麼不停呢？部長，你如果電力夠的話，我鄭重呼籲，不要再買它的電了。"],["郭部長智輝：因為它那個是……"],["張委員啓楷：它已經除役了嘛，它的時間就是到了啊！"],["郭部長智輝：它那個是25年……"],["張委員啓楷：而且又是燃煤的。"],["郭部長智輝：是，如你所指導的，但是這個部分，契約就是這樣子。"],["張委員啓楷：契約就到期了啊，契約就是5月31日到期啊！你們現在是延期，為什麼要延到明年底？"],["郭部長智輝：5月31日到期，但是因為這裡面有一些……"],["張委員啓楷：這個我們找一天再來追，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["張委員啓楷：我跟你講，站在人民健康的立場，其實不是只有雲嘉南、彰化跟臺中，你看中南部的肺腺癌跟肺癌那麼嚴重，人命關天，你也注意一下，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：最後，我要求兩個東西，第一個，部長，請提出電力設施如果銜接不上時，你有什麼緊急的方案，你本來有7%的電，你硬要把它停掉，我知道你可能也為難，因為你是政務官，你可能也為難，你核三1號機又要停，可是發生緊急狀況銜接不上的時候，你有什麼緊急方案？第二個，你現在核能不延役了，未來一年因為核三廠1號機停完之後，你增加多少的碳排跟發電成本？你兩個禮拜內給我一份報告，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["張委員啓楷：加油！"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：期待你不是一個短命的經濟部長。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：可是如果要像王部長當4年的話，不要大停電，而且電力要充足的同時，還要是低碳的、穩定的電，讓產業可以真正發展，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝部長，也謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝。主席台宣告一下，待會鄭正鈐委員質詢完畢，我們休息3分鐘。"],["主席（張委員啓楷代）：請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","邱志偉","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","蔡易餘","羅智強","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","陳冠廷"],"page_start":83,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教\n育部首長就「為掌握生成式 AI 等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化 AI 生態系及充\n實 AI 人才與產業 AI 化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用 AI 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這個還是一樣我的前提就是非核家園是沒有變只是我那個時候在講的時候沒有講這一句話所以我的用詞不夠精準這點我非常抱歉但是我想我的意思就是說非核家園是沒有變但是其他的這些假設性問題我在敘述假設性的問題也就是說今天如果我們講說這個法"},{"start":203.843,"end":216.878,"text":"已經解掉了然後我們去盤點然後去看他安全無虞然後這個核安會他也通過了認為他是可行的所以我是在講說前面都有前提"},{"start":217.881,"end":244.229,"text":"那現在大概很多的朋友就是會比較不注意前面的那個假設部長你沒有很委屈沒有被震撼教育沒有沒有沒有被震撼教育我問你一下你知道經濟部長你認的經濟部長任期最短的是誰嗎現在大家在關心你大家對你有問嗎嗎希望你當久一點謝謝在產業界希望你當久一點是"},{"start":247.674,"end":270.548,"text":"可是你知道嗎?經濟部長有的任期很短喔!左邊這一位中材宜你知道中材宜這幾天喔?你不知道?四十八天你應該不是誤闖叢林的小白兔啦你經驗那麼豐富企業界對你有期待嘛我期待你可以像王美花一樣王美花當了快四年"},{"start":271.684,"end":292.657,"text":"可是你到底是一個短命的經濟部長還是一個長命的經濟部長這個很重要喔是一方面任期長不長第二個有沒有幫產業界解決問題我知道說了你任期絕對不要發生大停電產業界的人對你說說你講的是謊話或者你不了解我我根本不敢投資這兩個事情一出現我跟你講你明天就掉下來了"},{"start":293.837,"end":315.883,"text":"好不好不要大停電讓產業界講真心話真的幫他們解決問題期待你是王美花的任期不是中產儀可是相對你要幫產業界解決問題好不好不要讓人家覺得說那個以前務實專業的勾字會不見的好不好主委你要不要幫你的老朋友打打氣主委"},{"start":317.735,"end":341.984,"text":"他可以解決剛剛講那兩個問題嘛對不對規大停電 滿足企業界的用電嗎用電是要不夠喔要是穩定的電喔 低碳的電喔你記得 你的老朋友 郭志輝 郭部長可以做得到嗎這個幾乎我們每天都有溝通啦我對他信心十足我信心啦好 所以希望可以做久一點而且可以解決問題來 可是啊 我剛才講過啦電夠不夠啊 是科學問題"},{"start":344.83,"end":362.193,"text":"不是意識形態跟政治的問題,它是簡單的數學問題。」我們來看你的挑戰在這裡你現在河山廠的1號機727要停了明年5月2號機要停了減了7%的電力我們的電力少了7%"},{"start":363.82,"end":386.852,"text":"然後呢你自己講的過去5年我們的平均用電每一年是成長2.03%郭部長你自己講的加上AI進來之後AI需求爆發的影響我們台灣每一年增加的電力是3%你到2029年剩下多少用5年來算就好了我們的電力至少要增加16%少7%增加16%你去找這麼多電出來你去找這麼多電出來所以那個地方"},{"start":391.499,"end":409.211,"text":"把核電當成一個備援的電力對不對然後第二個你現在看起來你的電量生出來你是從大潭電廠的7號機跟9號機嘛對不對可是現在看起來三接到現在端也見完阿你到時候會不會接不上來報告委員那個三接在明年的4月就會見完"},{"start":413.111,"end":438.003,"text":"這有把握啦不要不要用那個現在看起來4號跟4J跟5J環境我去看過了你去看過了現在精靈狀喔沒你4位是啦一定要搞啊是是是有過的話有3J有層的話才有可能你的大潭電廠的7號機跟9號機才有天然氣可以用是是要不然的話你就真的是缺電了是好不好好來我們再看下一個除了"},{"start":440.399,"end":469.307,"text":"世界5G要真的接上來之外還有一個問題就是低碳AI需要穩定的電嘛 對不對而且是低碳嘛現在連環境部的部長都講2050年淨零碳排台灣不可能另外我提醒一個點發展產業之外台灣人的健康要補給對不對我相信你有這個體認主委跟部長應該都很注意這個台灣人的費是比較耐操嗎台灣現在用電一年是3000"},{"start":470.788,"end":489.478,"text":"三千億度,製造了多少?產生了多少的這個碳?1.27億噸!我們現在肺癌跟肺腺癌發生的是全世界第15例癌的死掉的致死率最高的也是肺癌跟肺腺癌"},{"start":490.469,"end":508.691,"text":"可是現在看起來你的替代方案你核電停掉了低碳的核電停掉了可是你現在都是天然氣喔都是燃煤喔甚至有一個內幕很重要你前幾天啊你還把賣寮的燃煤的這個電廠它是民間的你本來跟它午夜就是停止合約的嘛 對不對"},{"start":510.134,"end":538.309,"text":"你跟他續約到明年底那個是用燃煤啊那個是對我自己人啊那個對嘉義地區對雲林地區對台中彰化地區那個健康影響是很大的喔我現在提醒我現在提醒要有足夠的電穩定的電低碳的電的同時顧到人民的健康好不好好的不過那個是報告委員那是婚姻管政府要要求啦婚姻管政府要要求減煤的要求啦"},{"start":539.998,"end":562.57,"text":"這個問題是你台電在買啊你如果為了人民的健康其實我覺得它是那麼古老的電廠那麼古老的電廠而且影響是燒的施展煤為什麼不停呢你如果電力夠的話部長你如果電力夠的話我鄭重呼籲不要再買它的電了因為它已經廚藝了嘛它時間就是到了啊而且又是施展煤了"},{"start":564.525,"end":588.607,"text":"是的,是如您所指導的,但是這個部分就是契約契約就夠了,契約就是5月31日夠了你們現在是延期,為什麼要延到明年底啊好不好,這個我們早些再來追啦我跟你講,站在人民的健康,比起不是只有雲嘉蘭、彰化跟台中啦你看那個中南部的那個肺腺癌跟肺癌那麼嚴重好不好,人民關天也注意一下最後我要求兩個東西好不好"},{"start":590.489,"end":616.066,"text":"第一個部長你提出電力設施如果銜接不上你有什麼緊急的方案好不好你本來7%的電力硬要把它停掉我知道你可能也為難因為你是政務官嘛你可能也為難河山廠也要計劃停可是緊急發生狀況銜接不上的時候你有什麼緊急方案第二個你現在核能不研議了增加多少的未來一年好了好不好未來一年因為河山廠"},{"start":617.352,"end":641.034,"text":"一要GYD停完之後你增加多少的碳排跟發電的這個成本你兩個禮拜給我個報告好不好好的好加油期待期待不是一個短命的經濟部長可是如果像黃部長要當4年的話不要大停電而且電力要充充足的同時要是低碳的又是一個穩定的電好不好讓產業真正可以發展好不好是是是好謝謝部長也謝謝主委好謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}