{"error":false,"id":["153834"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153834,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153834","日期":"2024-06-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-12T10:42:08+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-12T10:52:50+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:42","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8194500e07eda7b1b70182e407f268492bca04e565a7cce14ef0962b2368f89429f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:42:08 - 10:52:50","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（VASP）淪為詐騙工具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":530,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時42分）好，謝謝主席，我先請彭主委。"],["主席（郭委員國文）：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委，金融科技業一年一度的盛事──FINTECH TAIPEI馬上就要舉辦，在今年年底。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我想請問一下，國內的詐騙集團非常有名的im.B曾經不只一次參加FINTECH TAIPEI，造成很多投資人誤以為im.B是一家合法、具有前景而且有投資潛力的一家公司。那個時候我們踢爆這件事情之後，金管會有發布聲明，推說舉辦FINTECH TAIPEI的是金融研訓院還有金融總會之類的，對於這樣的詐騙集團混入FINTECH TAIPEI予以嚴厲譴責，然後就沒有了，所以我請問一下，因為主委現在剛剛接任。從這個照片可以看到那個時候是顧立雄當主委，這個就是整個會場的狀況，im.B在後面開心地跟前主委合照。當然會有這種照片是因為他最喜歡跟這些大人物合照，照了之後就會傳給他的投資人。我想請問主委，這一次的FINTECH TAIPEI能不能夠確切地避免像這樣的詐騙集團在裡面魚目混珠？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝王委員，我們當然不希望類似的案件發生，我們會在未來舉辦這個活動的時候記取教訓，好好地避免這一件事情發生。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們是指導單位，對於這些主辦單位是不是應該課以責任？發生這種事情很難看吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們督導也要負責任，未來像這個我們都一定要記取教訓，也會責成……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我在這邊預先跟主委提醒，千萬不要再發生類似的狀況。","好，時間暫停一下，主委先請回，我請法務部次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：次長好。有關於反詐，因為檢調一直都是第一線辦案人員，當然法務部也非常希望能夠在這些新型的犯罪型態、洗錢型態得到一些經驗，所以你們從去年開始就辦了很多的研討會，各地方檢察署都有辦各樣的講座，基本上主要也是針對虛擬貨幣，因為大家都覺得這是新型態的，但法務部主要合作的單位就是幣安，次長知道嗎？我時間要暫停，他現在在問啊！"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，不是法務部找的，是檢察機關找的。"],["王委員鴻薇：是檢察機關找的？"],["徐次長錫祥：對！"],["王委員鴻薇：法務部都不知道啊？時間暫停一下，今天檢察司也有來嘛，請副司長，因為如果次長不知道。沒關係，次長還是可以站上去，你還是督導為什麼今天要問這個問題。"],["主席：有檢察司。"],["王委員鴻薇：你可以看到這麼多跟幣安一起合作的研討會，其實在國際上他們比較瞭解虛擬貨幣，他們覺得不能理解的是，為什麼幣安在全球惡名昭彰，在很多的國家裡面，幣安從創辦人開始到他們在各地其實都被判刑，因為他們涉及相關的洗錢，他們是國際性的，結果臺灣是不是幫他們洗白呢？如同剛才召委所說的，因為成立公會幫一些可能有問題的虛擬貨幣業者洗白，我們是在國際上洗白，他們看到的時候都覺得眼珠要掉下來了。在美國的創辦人趙長鵬，事實上他還被關，而且被罰款的金額極為龐大；在加拿大也是一樣，被罰款600萬加幣；在印度也是一樣，被印度指控這些交易所違反洗錢相關的法規。所以請問一下，我們為什麼要找幣安啊？"],["簡副司長美慧：法務部不是幣安虛擬資產的監理機關，就我們的瞭解檢察機關及刑事警察局的部分，畢竟這是一個新興的犯罪手法，所以要讓檢察執法人員瞭解……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以找在國際知名的洗錢犯罪集團來教我們怎麼樣防制洗錢？"],["簡副司長美慧：因為虛擬資產我們有調取金流跟交易資料的必要性，我們跟國內還有國外的交易所必須有合作管道要跟他們調取資料，在這個部分，幣安在一些案件當中有協助檢察機關調取相關的交易資料，所以檢察機關……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以呢？所以我們要繼續跟他們合作嗎？"],["簡副司長美慧：我們不是合作。"],["王委員鴻薇：我在這邊已經指出，在國際上它的裁罰不斷，今天你去Google只要打出「幣安」，就立刻出現詐騙，所以我們還要繼續跟他們合作嗎？"],["簡副司長美慧：我們指的是只有調取資料的部分，像在交易所的部分，我們必須建立一些管道，才能夠查詢跟調取資料，這個部分對於檢警在偵辦相關的詐欺犯罪當中，是有幫助的。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們一定要透過幣安才能調取相關的資料喔？"],["簡副司長美慧：它是其中一個交易所，它是國外的一個交易所。"],["王委員鴻薇：除了調取資料之外，你還有跟它做一些研討會啊！你們不要再丟臉了，好不好？真的！"],["簡副司長美慧：檢察機關跟警察單位都有……"],["王委員鴻薇：在世界各國都重罰它，還把創辦人關起來，結果我們還繼續合作，然後告訴我們你們調資料還要透過幣安，法務部在國外的一些合作都是白做的嗎？"],["簡副司長美慧：在國外的部分，因為它不是我們境內的公司，所以在調取資料的部分必須要有很多的合作。"],["王委員鴻薇：它不是境內公司，它在國外詐騙沒有關係，這是什麼回答啊？如果是這樣的話，在臺灣詐騙，再到日本去當導師，可不可以？也可以囉！"],["簡副司長美慧：我們主要是希望他們可以協助我們查詢、取得相關的資料。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們根本就做錯了，到現在還嘴硬！停止跟幣安合作，停止在國際上這種丟臉的行為，你現在的說法是因為它在境外詐騙，它沒有在臺灣詐騙，所以你在臺灣給它洗白囉！這就是不折不扣的洗白，而且透過我們的政府、透過我們的檢調單位、透過我們地方的地檢署，你看我剛剛講有這麼多的，包含拜會、這些活動及研討會，臺灣果然是一個詐騙島啊！這些境外的詐騙集團到臺灣就來洗白，果然是不折不扣的詐騙島，我們要跟世界去宣傳這件事情嗎？好，所以這一點，我今天既然質詢了，我希望法務部瞭解一下幣安在世界各國惡名昭彰的行為，不要再繼續跟他們合作了，你找不到合法的業者喔？實在太離譜了！","另外，虛擬貨幣的監管系統已經正式上線，這在520之前就上線，我想請問一下，到目前為止，在這個平臺上已經扣案多少錢了？金額多少？"],["徐次長錫祥：金額大概是6、7億。"],["王委員鴻薇：6、7億。可是如果按照當時的宣布兩天扣案就4.5億，兩個月才6、7億，是嗎？到目前為止，才扣案6、7億？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：就代表那兩天洗錢的狀況很多，但在這兩個月這種案子變少了呢？還是你們仍沒有查到，可以說明一下嗎？"],["簡副司長美慧：之前虛擬資產的查扣，我們還沒有做監管系統平臺之前，是用冷錢包的方式查扣，比方說我們去犯罪的現場搜索，發現被告有虛擬資產，例如比特幣，那是用冷錢包的方式把那個錢給扣下來，所以之前在新北跟臺中的部分，案件大概各扣了2億，那都是扣在冷錢包這邊，在上線了之後，我們把它轉到……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以你的意思就是，一上線就把冷錢包轉移到這個平臺上，所以上線兩天就告訴大家成果斐然、成果非常好，但是事實上，如果我們到現在來講，其實增加的並不如我們想像中的那麼高，對不對？"],["簡副司長美慧：因為前面有4億是之前就扣下來，只是我們把它轉到現在熱錢包的公有鏈上，如果現在地檢署有持續查扣到，我們都是把錢打到公有鏈上來。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我就是要瞭解一下，但是基本上有關幣安的問題，今天我在這邊做正式的質詢，麻煩法務部也可以找各地方的檢察署討論，是不是還要繼續跟幣安再合作，我不希望再看到繼續合作了。"],["徐次長錫祥：我們會深刻檢討。"],["王委員鴻薇：好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢。待會在顏寬恒委員質詢之後，我們休息10分鐘。","接著請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-17","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林楚茵","李坤城","葛如鈞","王世堅","羅明才","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案\n與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（ 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謝謝主席 我先請彭主委有請彭主委委員好"},{"start":15.097,"end":43.008,"text":"主委 這個我們金融科技業一年一度的盛世就是那個Fintech對那麼也馬上就要舉辦在今年年底是那我想請問一下因為在國內的這個詐騙集團非常有名的IMB它曾經不止一次的參展就參加我們的Fintech所以呢造成很多的投資人物以為IMB是一家"},{"start":44.609,"end":62.907,"text":"合法而且具有前景、具有投資潛力的一家公司那個時候我們踢爆這件事情之後當時金管會有發布聲明那個聲明就把它推給說這個Fintech它的舉辦"},{"start":64.388,"end":76.254,"text":"是這個金融延續院還有什麼金融總會等等之類的說對這樣的人這樣的一個詐騙集團混入Fintech予以嚴厲譴責然後呢然後就沒有了然後就沒有了那所以我想請問一下因為主委現在剛剛接任"},{"start":86.52,"end":112.094,"text":"這個照片呢你可以看到那個時候是顧立雄他當時啊當主委的時候這個IMB這個就是整個的那個會場的狀況在後面開心跟我們的主委合照那當然這種照片因為他最喜歡跟這些大人物合照照了之後呢就會傳給他的這些投資人所以我想請問主委那麼我們這一次的FinTech能不能夠"},{"start":114.425,"end":141.965,"text":"確切地避免像這樣的詐騙集團在裡面魚沐混珠謝謝王委員我想我們當然不希望這類似的案件發生我們會在未來舉辦這個活動的時候記取教訓好好的來避免這件事情的發生所以因為你們是指導單位嘛那麼對於這些主辦單位是不是應該科以他們責任啊發生這種事情很難看吧"},{"start":142.739,"end":142.879,"text":"主委請回法務部次長"},{"start":176.128,"end":189.995,"text":"有關於反詐因為我們的檢調一直都是第一線的辦案人員當然法務部也非常希望能夠在這些新型的犯罪形態洗錢的形態能夠得到一些經驗"},{"start":192.216,"end":213.586,"text":"所以你們從去年開始呢就辦了很多的研討會各地方檢察署都有辦各樣的講座那基本上呢主要也是針對虛擬貨幣因為大家都覺得這是新型態的但是啊這個法務部主要的合作的單位就是幣安那個次長知道嗎"},{"start":220.834,"end":234.593,"text":"那我時間要暫停啊他現在在問啊不是法務部找的是那個檢查機關找的是檢查機關找的那法務部都不知道啊那時間暫停一下今天什麼檢察司也有來嗎"},{"start":236.529,"end":254.636,"text":"來 副市長來因為如果市長沒關係啊 市長還是可以站上去啊你還是督導為什麼要今天要問這個問題好 這個可以看到這麼多的這個跟幣安一起合作的這些研討會好 我們來看下一頁"},{"start":256.141,"end":280.771,"text":"其實這個是在國際上他們比較了解虛擬貨幣他們覺得不能理解的是為什麼幣安在全球惡名昭彰在很多的國家裡面幣安從創辦人開始到他們在各地其實都被判刑因為他們就是涉及相關的洗錢他們是國際性的"},{"start":284.246,"end":307.807,"text":"那結果台灣呢?真是是不是幫他們洗白呢?如同剛才那個我們那個昭偉所說的一位權力工會幫一些可能有問題的我們的這些這個虛擬貨幣業者來洗白我們是在國際上洗白他們看到的時候都覺得眼珠都要掉下來了好在美國"},{"start":309.301,"end":329.994,"text":"那個創辦人趙長鵬他事實上還被關而且被罰款的金額極為龐大在加拿大也是一樣被罰款600萬加幣在印度也是一樣被印度指控他們這些交易所是違反洗錢相關的法規所以請問一下我們為什麼要找幣安"},{"start":336.023,"end":361.859,"text":"報告委員就是說法務部不是那個弊案虛擬資產的那個監理機關那就我們了解是就是檢查機關還有那個刑事警察局的部分因為就是畢竟這是一個新興的一個犯罪的手法所以呢就是有要讓檢查所以找這個在國際知名的相關洗錢犯罪的集團來教我們怎麼樣防治洗錢因為那個虛擬資產我們有調取那個金流跟交易資料的一個必要性"},{"start":362.259,"end":382.067,"text":"所以我們就是跟國內還有國外的交易所必須有這個合作的管道要跟他們調取資料那這個部分就是幣安這邊有有些案件當中有協助檢查機關就是調取相關的這個交易資料所以呢所以你們要繼續跟他們合作嗎我在這邊您指出說在國際上他的財閥不斷你今天你去打一個幣安立刻出現詐騙"},{"start":386.038,"end":410.629,"text":"你去Google只要打錯幣安就立刻出現詐騙所以我們還要繼續跟他們合作嗎報告委員就是我們指的是只有調取資料的部分像那個就是交易所的部分我們必須建立一些管道才能夠查詢跟調取資料那這個部分對於檢警在偵辦相關的這個詐欺的犯罪當中我們一定要透過幣安才能夠調取這些相關的資料喔它是其中一個交易所它是國外的一個交易所"},{"start":411.581,"end":436.346,"text":"你除了調取資料之外然後你還有跟他做一些研討會啊你們不要再丟臉了好不好真的在世界各國都罰他重罰他還把他的那個什麼創辦人關起來結果我們還繼續的合作然後告訴我們說我們要調資料還要透過幣安那我們法務部在這個國外的一些一些合作都是白做的嗎"},{"start":437.686,"end":438.486,"text":"你們根本就做錯了 到現在還嘴硬"},{"start":459.605,"end":484.017,"text":"停止跟幣安合作停止在這種國際上丟臉的行為你現在做法是說因為他是在境外詐騙他還沒有在台灣詐騙啊所以你在台灣給他洗白囉這不就是不折不扣的洗白而且透過我們的政府透過我們的檢調單位透過我們地方的地檢署你看我剛講說有這麼多的包含拜會啦包含這些活動包含研討會"},{"start":485.712,"end":511.63,"text":"結果台灣台灣果然是一個詐騙島啊境外的這些詐騙直接到台灣就來洗白啦果然是不折不扣的詐騙島我們要跟世界去宣傳這件事情嗎好 所以這一點我今天既然質詢了我希望拔部瞭解一下彼岸在世界各國他們惡名昭彰的行為不要再繼續跟他們合作了你找不到合法的業者喔"},{"start":512.734,"end":513.155,"text":"金額多少?金額大概是六七億"},{"start":536.573,"end":562.555,"text":"6、7億可是如果按照當時的宣布說兩天扣案就4億5那兩個月才6、7億是嗎到目前為止才扣案6、7億是那是不是那就代表說那兩天哇 那個什麼那種洗錢的那個狀況很多然後就是這兩個月是這種案子變少了呢還是說我們還是沒有查到"},{"start":565.103,"end":568.367,"text":"之前那個虛擬資產的查扣就是我們還沒有做這個監管系統平台之前的時候是用冷錢包的方式查扣就說比方說我們去犯罪的現場搜索那發現這個被告有這個虛擬資產例如比特幣那是用冷錢包的方式把那個錢給扣下來"},{"start":582.762,"end":591.872,"text":"所以之前新北跟台中的部分就是案件大概各扣了有兩億那都是扣在冷錢包這邊所以你的意思就是說一上線就把這個冷錢包轉移到這個平台上所以這個金額會就是所以這個上線兩天就告訴大家成果斐然啊成果非常好"},{"start":600.362,"end":618.696,"text":"但是事實上如果我們到現在來講的話它其實增加的並不像我們所想像所想像中那麼高前面有四億就是之前就扣下來只是我們把它轉到現在的這個熱錢包的這個公有鏈上那如果現在地檢署這邊有持續查扣到的話我們都是把錢打到這個公有鏈上"},{"start":619.537,"end":619.697,"text":"主席主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}