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關鍵基礎設施）。請問NCC，你覺得台馬海纜該不該列入CI？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：跟委員報告，因為馬祖跟臺灣之間的海纜被漁船勾斷的次數太多了，也有一些事情，我是認為有必要把台馬海纜列入關鍵基礎設施，因為這個部分是電信管理法第四十二條的規定，需要由數位部來認定，我們尊重。"],["洪委員申翰：現在問題來了！現在問題來了！因為今天數位部不在，NCC現在很清楚表達其實應該列入關鍵基礎設施，由數位部以韌性保護的部分來去處理這個事情。現在我們看到5月15號國土辦有找了國安局、海巡署、數發部等單位其實討論過一次這個事情，當時有說由主管機關數發部與中華電信進行下一階段的評估，這場會議5月15號到現在其實已經將近快一個月的時間了，我拿到一份公文，數發部在上禮拜6月7號發一個文給中華電信，數發部說：請貴公司評估是否將國內海纜納入關鍵基礎設施範圍，並於2024年8月9號依附件格式填寫相關調查表。","中華電信，這是禮拜五的發函，昨天是第一個上班日，其實我的辦公室也跟中華電信去做詢問，中華電信現在給我的回答是，中華電信是一家民間公司，無權限決定，只能被動接受，我跟中華電信說，可不可以讓我們知道一下中華電信內部是哪一個單位在負責這件事情，中華電信回復我說不方便透露。林副總，現在可不可以回復了？"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員，我想中華電信對相關事項的評估跟決策有一定的流程，所以這可能不是哪一個單一單位對這個部分……"],["洪委員申翰：我現在問副總，你是代表你們董事長來的嘛？"],["林副總經理文智：是。"],["洪委員申翰：中華電信現在對於台馬海纜納入CI，你們的看法是怎樣？"],["林副總經理文智：就如同關鍵基礎設這一個部分，中華電信這邊都是配合相關法令做辦理……"],["洪委員申翰：不是啊，現在數位部請你們評估。"],["林副總經理文智：評估的……"],["洪委員申翰：看剛剛的那個公文，數位部請貴公司評估。"],["林副總經理文智：評估的部分因為文剛到本公司，我想相關的作業，我們會儘快展開，也跟委員報告，中華電信公司相關的決策事項，在整個經營團隊會做過討論之後，再做相關的回復跟說明。"],["洪委員申翰：林副總，這個會議是5月15號就開了，交由數位部跟中華電信兩個去做下一階段的評估，國安局也說應該，NCC也說應該。局長，我們現在看到變數位部跟中華電信兩個在互踢皮球，你覺得這是對於我們整體國安來說是好事嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，就國安局角度來講，因為我們在跨部會的協調平臺，就是行政院的國土安全協調會報，我們可以出席，所以針對這個問題，假如有召開相關會報的話，我們會繼續來反映。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我們剛才活生生看到中華電信跟數位部互踢皮球的過程，數位部發文了，中華電信說：對不起，我不便評估……"],["蔡局長明翰：應該還是會評估啦！它會評估……"],["洪委員申翰：你會評估嗎？"],["林副總經理文智：一定會評估。"],["洪委員申翰：那什麼時候可以給答案？"],["林副總經理文智：我們會依照函的時程，在時程內一定會做完相關的評估。"],["洪委員申翰：所以什麼時候可以給答案？林副總。"],["林副總經理文智：它目前的要求……"],["洪委員申翰：這個事情是我從去年3月，這不是新議題喔！去年3月臺馬海纜斷掉，連續斷兩次的時候，我們當時就問這件事情，已經事隔1年又3個月了！你們其實是相關的……你們應該是維護者的角色嘛，對不對？"],["林副總經理文智：是。"],["洪委員申翰：你們維護者的角色到底對這件事情的看法是什麼，現在沒有看法嗎？"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員……"],["洪委員申翰：如果我們每一個相關的國安上面的關鍵基礎設施維護者都是這個態度的話，我確實覺得這對我們整體的國安來說是堪慮的啊！"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員……"],["洪委員申翰：局長，1年又3個月了喔！我們的維護者對這件事情還講不出看法，這不是新議題，不是1個月喔！"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員報告，期程的部分我們一定會依照主管機關的要求去做配合。另外剛剛委員也提到中華電信是關鍵基礎設施的維護者，相關評估的部分納入關鍵基礎設施，中華電信公司就要確實做到這個關鍵基礎設施應該要做到的事項，我想這也是……","至於海纜的部分確實有它的一些特殊性，再加上地域是對岸漁船的密集活動區域，所以相關事項的評估，我們會從如何達成這個關鍵基礎設施的部分，做相關的評估跟提出說明……"],["洪委員申翰：副總，看一下這個，這是關鍵基礎設施盤點作業須知，我想大家應該很熟悉，個別設施的維護者不只是要打分數，它還要進行設施的分級建議，我其實不知道為什麼經過1年又3個月，對於臺馬海纜的問題、就國安上面的問題，目前中華電信還沒有辦法給予具體的建議、具體的態度，為什麼還沒有辦法說出來？"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員報告，我們會儘快地去處理這個事情。"],["洪委員申翰：你給個時間點吧？兩個禮拜？"],["林副總經理文智：我們會依照主管機關的期程去完成辦理。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我坦白說，我真的覺得這個過程，我之前也給國安局、給國土辦時間，現在還弄成這樣子，讓數位部跟中華電信之間互相踢來踢去，我真的認為這從國安專業的角度來說，我不知道你從專業角度怎麼看待這個過程。"],["蔡局長明彥：我當然瞭解委員的關切……"],["洪委員申翰：我真的非常非常遺憾。"],["蔡局長明彥：我完全瞭解委員的關切，就我們的通訊韌性跟安全來講，外離島的海纜確實是非常重要的議題，也謝謝委員長期的關注，那可能在評估過程當中，就我的理解，一個是事業機關要做它自己專業的評估，另外還要再到主管機關進行跨部會的協調，我剛剛也跟委員報告，假如有決策機關在所謂行政院的國土安全協調會報，我們能夠發聲的話，我們會把委員的這種關切帶到討論過程當中……"],["洪委員申翰：我知道你們已經跨部會協調了嘛？國土辦也開會了嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["洪委員申翰：所以國土辦的決議交由數位部跟中華電信來去做最後的評估跟判斷嘛？我之前也問過你，你也跟我說這個過程進入下一階段判斷，可是到目前為止，兩邊看起來是在踢皮球啊！我認為從國安局的角度應該清楚告訴數位部跟中華電信，這種踢皮球態度是不符合國安需求的，是違背我們在國安上面的需求，我覺得國安局要把這方面的專業講得非常清楚。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會從國安的角度來提醒啦！但因為現在的中華電信還在它的作業階段，可能這部分看怎麼樣配合主管機關的要求，儘快提出比較專業的評估。"],["洪委員申翰：去年3月陳院長就說應該納入啦！所有的人看CI相關的規定，都認為應該納入喔！經過一年，假設我們每一個關鍵基礎設施都要判斷1年3個月，甚至要判斷一年半，對於我們CI相關的維護跟風險管理，我真的會很擔憂。","今天是我在國防與外交委員會第3次質詢這件事情，我真的希望中華電信不能再用之前這種推卸的態度了，就用專業來判斷，如果你們國安專業不足以判斷的話，你們就該跟國安局請教、就該跟國土辦請教，而不是用便宜行事的作法，去年我們就講過這件事，之前中共的利劍行動也特別針對金門跟馬祖、針對我們的離島，聚焦在離島上面，假如他當時又再用各種方式把我們的海纜弄斷了，那這行政疏失是要誰來承擔？這國安上面疏失的責任是誰來承擔？是中華電信還是數位部還是國安局還是國土辦？我沒有辦法接受這種評估的時程啦！","林副總，麻煩你把這個訊息清楚地帶回你的公司裡面，可以嗎？"],["林副總經理文智：是。"],["洪委員申翰：我今天沒有做其他的要求，只希望在判斷這件事情上面，從國安專業的角度來去處理這個問題，而且這不是我第一次要求，在這個委員會我們就談了3次，我也不是特別針對中華電信，我只是覺得這麼清楚，所有的長官都認為該列入CI的這樣一件事情，卻在我們執行端出現這麼多的阻力，這我沒有辦法接受，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["主席：我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時6分）","繼續開會（11時13分）"],["主席：請各位回座，開始開會，我們現在開始開會。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1.7522187500000002,"end":3.2372187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3.5072187500000003,"end":6.3590937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.76846875,"end":6.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7.01721875,"end":9.970343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.15596875,"end":12.062843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12.062843750000003,"end":13.716593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.716593750000001,"end":15.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.589718750000003,"end":16.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":19.20096875,"end":36.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.098468750000002,"end":27.419093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.680343750000002,"end":29.781593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.781593750000003,"end":29.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.96721875,"end":29.984093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":37.12221875,"end":38.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.15596875,"end":37.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":39.197843750000004,"end":39.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start"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委員好"},{"start":20.356,"end":44.748,"text":"局長我其實我們一直在本委員會其實這個我記得之前我們已經兩度其實討論臺馬海蘭的事情那其實這個議題我也是在去年的時候3月當時就質詢過陳建仁院長那我今天為什麼還要再談這一題的原因是因為我其實感覺到"},{"start":46.348,"end":72.833,"text":"一個很明確而且正當性很高的國安的訴求主張但我感覺現在在行政部門裡面卻出現了一些阻力這是我今天為什麼還要持續在談這一題的原因這個我其實在去年3月的時候其實那時候我就很明確說"},{"start":74.643,"end":100.65,"text":"臺馬海蘭應該列入關鍵基礎設施去年3月的時候陳院長也表達應該那這一年多來我陸陸續續跟NCC包括跟海巡署包括也質詢過蔡局長蔡局長也跟我說你也覺得臺馬海蘭應該列入CI那NCC你覺得臺馬海蘭該不該列入CI"},{"start":102.812,"end":128.933,"text":"跟委員報告因為馬祖跟台馬之間的海嵐那個被漁船勾斷的次數太多了也有一些事情我是認為說有必要把它列入台馬海嵐要把它列入關鍵基礎設施那因為這個部分是電信管理法42條的規定需要由數位部來認定那問題來了現在問題來了因為今天數位部不在"},{"start":130.154,"end":150.64,"text":"NC現在當然很清楚表達其實應該列入關鍵基礎設施然後由數位部以韌性保護的部分來去處理這個事情現在我們看到5月15號國土辦有找了國安局、海巡署、速發部等單位其實討論過一次這個事情當時是有說由主管機關速發部與中華電信進行下一階段的評估"},{"start":153.161,"end":167.564,"text":"這場會議5月15號到現在其實已經將近快一個月的時間了我拿到一份公文下一張再下一張速發部在上禮拜6月7號發一個文給中華電信速發部說請貴公司評估是否將國內海嵐納入關鍵基礎設施的範圍並於2024年8月9號"},{"start":181.485,"end":208.465,"text":"副建格式填寫相關的調查表中華電信昨天這是禮拜五的發函那昨天是第一個上班日那我其實我的辦公室也跟中華電信來去做詢問那中華電信現在給我的回答是中華電信是一家民間公司無權限決定只能被動接受"},{"start":209.707,"end":225.166,"text":"那我跟中華電信說那可不可以讓我們知道一下中華電信是內部是哪一個單位在負責這件事情中華電信回覆我說不方便透露林副總現在可不可以回覆了"},{"start":227.11,"end":245.388,"text":"報告委員,我想中華電信對相關事項的評估跟決策有一定的流程,所以這可能不是哪一個單一單位對這一個部就能夠做出的決策。那你副總,那我現在問副總嘛,你是代表你們董事長來的嘛,那中華電信現在對於台馬海岸納入CI你們的看法是怎樣?"},{"start":246.89,"end":260.123,"text":"我想就如同關鍵基礎設施這一個部分呢：中華電信這邊都是配合相關的法律的指定不是啊 現在數位部請你們評估啊看看剛才的那份公文數位部請貴公司評估啊"},{"start":260.845,"end":262.646,"text":"林副總 這個會議是5月15號就開的交由數位部跟中華電信兩個去做下一階段的評估"},{"start":288.49,"end":311.822,"text":"國安局也說應該NCC也說應該局長我們現在看到變數位部跟中華電信兩個在互踢皮球你覺得這個事物對於我們整體國安來說是好事嗎對就國安局角度來講因為我們在跨部會的協調平台就是行政院的國土安全協調會報我們可以出席所以針對這個問題假如有召開相關會報的話我們會繼續來反映"},{"start":315.463,"end":343.691,"text":"我們剛才活生生看到中華電信跟數位部故踢皮球的過程嘛數位部發文了中華電信說對不起我不便評估應該還是會評估他會評估你會評估嗎一定會評估那什麼時候可以給答案我們會依照那個喊的這個時程在時程內一定會做完相關的評估所以什麼時候可以給答案李副總"},{"start":346.114,"end":368.259,"text":"這個事情是我從去年3月這不是新議題喔去年3月台馬海欄斷掉連續斷兩次的時候我們當時就問這件事情已經事隔一年又三個月囉你們其實是這相關的你們應該是維護者的角色嘛對不對你們維護者的角色到底對這件事情的看法是什麼現在沒有看法嗎"},{"start":370.703,"end":381.367,"text":"如果我們每一個相關的國安上面的關鍵基礎設施維護者都是這個態度的話我確實是覺得這對我們整體的國安來說其實是慷慮的局長一年又三個月了我們的維護者對這件事情還講不出看法"},{"start":393.726,"end":406.733,"text":"這不是新議題不是一個月又三不是一個月喔跟委員報告那個起承了部落想我明天會依照主管機關的要求去做配合另外剛剛委員也提到說中華電信是關潛技術設施的維護者"},{"start":408.854,"end":428.859,"text":"關於相關的評估的部分納入關鍵基礎設施中華電信公司就要確實做到這個關鍵基礎設施應該要做到的事項我想這也是海嶺的部分確實有它的一些特殊性那再加上這個地域是對岸漁船的密集活動區域所以相關的事項的評估我們會從如何達成這個關鍵基礎設施的維穩"},{"start":432.7,"end":460.791,"text":"做相關的評估跟提出說明蘇董看一下這個這是關於企圖設施盤點作業須知這我想大家應該很熟悉個別設施的維護者不只是要打分數他還要對於進行設施的分級建議我其實不知道為什麼經過一年又三個月目前中華電信還沒有辦法對於台馬海嵐的問題就國安上面的問題給予具體的建議具體的態度為什麼還沒有辦法說出來"},{"start":464.637,"end":491.658,"text":"我們會盡快的去處理這個事情到底你給個時間點吧兩個禮拜我們會依照主管機關的基層裡面去完成辦理那個局長我坦白說我真的覺得這個過程齁我之前也給國安局給國土辦時間現在還弄到是現在是這樣子讓數位部跟中華電信之間互相踢來踢去"},{"start":494.851,"end":519.559,"text":"我真的認為這是從國安專業的角度來說我不知道你從專業角度怎麼看待這個過程我當然了解委員的關切我真的非常非常遺憾完全了解委員的關切就我們的通訊韌性跟安全來講外離島的海嵐確實是非常重要的議題那也謝謝委員長期的關注那可能在評估過程當中我的理解一個是事業機關他要做他自己的專業的評估那另外還要再到主管機關進行跨部會的協調"},{"start":520.359,"end":547.967,"text":"那我剛剛也跟委員報告交友決策機關在所謂行政院的國土安全協調匯報我們能夠發聲的話我們會把委員這種的關切帶到討論的過程當中我知道你們已經跨部會協調了嘛國土辦也開會了嘛對所以國土辦的決議交由數位部跟中華電信來去做最後的評讀跟判斷嘛我之前也問過你嘛你也跟我說了這個過程進入下一階段判斷嘛可是到目前為止兩邊看起來是在踢皮球啊"},{"start":550.305,"end":575.624,"text":"我認為從國安局的角度應該清楚告訴數位部跟中華電信這種踢皮球的態度是不符合國安需求的是違背我們在國安上面需求的我覺得國安局要把這方面的專業要講得非常清楚我們會從國安的角度來提醒但因為現在的中華電信它還在它的作業階段那可能這一部分看怎麼樣配合到主管機關的要求儘快提出比較專業的評估去年3月陳院長就說應該納入"},{"start":577.737,"end":607.098,"text":"所有的人看這個CIA相關的規定都認為應該納入假如我們每一個關鍵基礎設施都要判斷一年三個月甚至要判斷一年半我其實會對我們這CIA相關的維護跟風險管理真的是會很擔憂的我今天在這邊是我們在國防外交委員會我第三次質詢這件事情我真的是希望中華電信不能再用之前這種推卸的態度了"},{"start":609.827,"end":630.805,"text":"就用專業來判斷如果你們專業不足以國安專業不足以判的話你們就該跟國安局請教就該跟國土辦請教而不是用便宜形式的做法去年我們就講這件事今年之前這個中共的利劍行動也特別針對"},{"start":633.483,"end":657.478,"text":"金門跟馬祖針對我們的離島聚焦在離島上面假如他當時又再把我們的海欄弄斷了用各種方式那這行政疏失是要誰來承擔這國安上面疏失的責任是誰來承擔是中華電信還是數位部還是國安局還是國土辦我沒有辦法接受這種評估的時程"},{"start":659.977,"end":678.792,"text":"林副總麻煩你把這個訊息清楚的帶回你的公司裡面可以嗎是我今天沒有做其他的要求只希望在判斷這件事情上面從國安專業的角度來去處理這個問題而且這也不是我第一次要求在這個委員會我們就談了三次我也不是特別針對中華電信"},{"start":681.172,"end":697.744,"text":"我只是覺得這麼清楚所有的長官都認為該列入CI的這樣一件事情卻在我們執行端出現這麼多的阻力這我沒有辦法接受啊謝謝好謝謝我們現在休息五分鐘"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}