{"error":false,"id":["153844"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153844,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153844","日期":"2024-06-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-26","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":26,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-12T11:13:35+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-12T11:22:52+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:17","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81921c321c6dd17dc1059a48fe1a1d57c38dd6f040307a1001aa488f48b86ec085f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:13:35 - 11:22:52","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":560,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時13分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請國家安全局蔡局長以及法務部調查局吳副局長和NCC翁副主委以及中華電信林副總。"],["主席：請蔡局長還有以上各列席單位就位，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：局長好，還有副局長以及副主委和副總。我想今天我們要討論的就是關於司法調查的應用分析在電信信令的使用上和商業學術應用有差別，我先請教一下局長，看你瞭不瞭解這個差別。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一般來講，我們在使用電信信令，也就是說所謂的中華電信類似的電信業者的這些手機訊號位置的時候，從商業或學術研究來講，它是在去識別化之後去分析一個群體的輪廓，當然它根據的是個資法跟契約，要當事人同意，但是這跟我們國安情報或犯罪偵查以刑事起訴或情資蒐集有所不同，比如說，在我們的情資蒐集或者犯罪起訴之外，大概是要在未去識別之前找到特定的嫌疑人，並且區分潛在的受害者、共犯跟第三人，而且它基本上是法官保留，請問局長您對於這樣的區分是否同意？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，依照法規來講，本來就是要有這樣的區分，就……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你繼續講。"],["蔡局長明彥：就我們國安的相關偵辦來講，審查過程非常地嚴謹，尤其貴院所通過的通保法也特別強調的概念是在於最小侵害的原則……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["蔡局長明彥：所以這部分是我們依法行政的主要標準。"],["鍾委員佳濱：吳副局長，這個跟你們的犯罪偵查是否也是類似這樣子？"],["吳副局長富梅：報告委員，是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是沒錯，好，我們往下看。局長，在國安及司法使用之後，依法必須定期將這些年報送給立法院備查，請問你們有根據通保法第十六條之一這樣做嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，做了！"],["鍾委員佳濱：有做了？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，送到貴院備查了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：調查局，你們有嗎？還是法務部？"],["吳副局長富梅：報告，當然有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然也有，所以根據通保法的現行規定，你們只要使用過都要送到立法院來備查。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝兩位，請回。現在我們來看一下，反而是現在各種的電信契約取得授權就很含糊，我請教NCC翁副主委，這是你們定型化契約的第三十八條條款，其提到甲方因為業務上所掌握的，就是電信業者，所掌握的乙方，就是訂戶、用戶，負有保密義務，除了當事人要求查閱本身資料之外，或者要符合個資法相關法令規定，你們不得對電商揭露。這是你們訂定的？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：這個是按照電管法第十七條，因為針對用戶個資的蒐集、處理與利用，有訂定了這樣子的定型化契約。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你來看一下，遠傳電信契約的第三十九條跟你們的一模一樣，對不對？沒有問題嘛！遠傳的第三十九條，一樣嘛！遠傳電信契約的第三十九條，看得到嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是一樣嘛！好，中華電信林副總，很奇怪，你們中華電信契約的第三十七條第二項就不太一樣，你們提到乙方的資料，甲方如果有個人蒐集目的以外的使用，目的外使用喔！要得乙方的同意，但是如果甲方處理過，就是要去識別化，確認第三人無法識別乙方本人的資料，就是去識別化之後，就可以提供給第三人使用。請問你們的條款跟NCC是否一樣？"],["林副總經理文智：我想……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然不一樣嘛！"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有沒有取得乙方同意？你們去識別化之後，就不需要取得乙方同意了嘛，是不是這樣子？"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員，我想中華電信這邊相關的事項，還是依照個資法去做……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，我是問你這條是不是你們寫的嘛！"],["林副總經理文智：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們就跟NCC的規定不一樣嘛！而且你們前面還寫到要得乙方同意，但是去識別化之後，就可以提供給第三人，到底要不要乙方同意？要不要乙方同意？"],["林副總經理文智：我們在……"],["鍾委員佳濱：去識別化之後，你們的用戶資料要不要乙方同意？你們也講不出來嘛！副主委，知道了沒有？你們訂定的條款，遠傳遵守，中華電信變造一下，你覺得這樣有符合你們的規定嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告……"],["鍾委員佳濱：副主委請說。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，這個部分我們會要邀集三大電信業者，要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你這樣沒有直接回答問題嘛！遠傳有照你們的規定走，中華電信有沒有？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：針對這個部分，我們想說要拉齊管制，要按照NCC的來處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們接著看遠傳做什麼，這是遠傳的隱私權策略，有提到蒐集資料範圍是「包括但不限於」，很簡單耶！我可以看你的東西，但不限於這些東西，那我是不是什麼都可以看？這個條款提到我可以蒐集你的資料，但不限於以下這些資料，這些資料我一定要蒐集，但是不限於這些資料，遠傳的條款基本上也把你看光光嘛！你同意嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，對此我們就是要它在蒐集的時候，事前他要知悉、同意，事後他也可以控制、可以option out……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：這個是我們未來要求三大電信業者……"],["鍾委員佳濱：它要做什麼？它要做行銷、它要做非公務機關依法定義務所進行個資的蒐集及利用、它要做廣告跟商業行為、它要做其他合乎營業登記的行為、它要做調查、統計與研究、它要做其他諮詢與顧問服務，幾乎無所不包啊！它的使用目的就是這些，這誰訂定的？這是遠傳自己告訴你的，什麼都可以看、什麼都可以用。","盧秀燕市長的臺中市政府怎麼跟遠傳合作？它可以透過這些資料，包含國籍、年齡、性別、居住地，它可以透過你跟基地臺的連結去分析你的旅次鏈、數位足跡、順遊景點、住宿概況、線上行為及社群使用概況。請問副主委，你覺得這樣的內容有沒有超出商業應用，還是已經到達了可以偵知隱私的程度？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，這個重點是它要去識別化，而且它只能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：去識別化，我也可以說不知道你是具體個人，我透過你停留的地點、你移動的方式、你採用的行為，我可以推斷是誰嘛，不是嗎？你覺得這樣可以接受嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，這部分我會來督導三大電信業者……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，接下來就是你的事了，往下看。金管會怎麼做？金融業都有一個共同行銷特別商議條款，你們可不可以比照金融共同行銷去取得消費者的積極同意？我今天辦信用卡，他會很清楚地告訴我一張紙，你們知道嗎？剛剛中華電信那個東西有沒有在給消費者的契約上？沒有！在網路上，你簽了，你自己看，就像反質詢一樣，法律通過了再跟你報告，中華電信是不是這樣子？我剛剛講的那些內容，你們有公布在你們的契約裡面嗎？沒有，你們公布在網站上，消費者跟你打了合約、跟你訂了手機，我簽了同意，什麼內容？我要上網去看。副主任，你知道嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：我知道，它有用那個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這樣可以嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：謝謝委員的指導，這一部分我們會努力把它拉齊，而且會比照金管會的來辦理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，副總，今天你是炮火焦點啦！你們覺得這樣做可以嗎？"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員先報告一下，我們個資的條款除了網站有公告之外，在受理業務的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：網路上有公告，我簽了你的條約，我的書面契約上沒有，你叫我自己去網路上看？"],["林副總經理文智：它是分離的一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，這是個分離的行為，副主委，聽到了沒有，分離的行為。"],["林副總經理文智：在本公司受理作業的時候，會要求客戶同意……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是你們自己訂定的規定，NCC有沒有同意？分離的契約內容，你簽了一個契約，契約的文字你上網去看。副主委，最後的結論……"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員再報告一下，他簽署的部分會包含上面所有的個資告知事項。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是啦！我簽署的那個契約，部分的內容是要上網自己去看的。副主委，上週我在交委會已經提書面質詢了，NCC目前的進度，我要求你們要修正定型化契約，包含簡易、顯著告訴客戶使用目的，設計欄位要供客戶勾選同意，不得因客戶未同意就拒絕提供服務。NCC是不是按照這個方向去處理？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，我們近期會來修訂定型化契約。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是按照這個方式？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：按照委員指導的方向來處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，中華電信要不要配合修正？"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員報告，我們目前在個資告知事項的預設就是不同意，所以要客戶選擇同意以後我們才會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：客戶不知道他同意了什麼啦！你們最大的問題就在這裡啦！謝謝副主委，副主委什麼時候可以告訴我們、告訴本委員會？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：我們在年底之前會把……"],["鍾委員佳濱：年底之前是幾月？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：定型化契約全部再重新修訂，就按照委員指導的方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：年底嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：12月31日？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席可以接受嗎？"],["主席：委員，你可以訂一個時間啊！因為現在發生的是大家產生了疑慮，你可以儘快，已經在推動了嘛！"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：是。"],["主席：可以更快速的時間？"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以更快速嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：我們在四個月內。"],["鍾委員佳濱：四個月內，好，可以，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.90846875,"end":1.6340937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.03909375,"end":10.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.98284375,"end":14.712218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.454718750000001,"end":16.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.36596875,"end":23.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.89221875,"end":40.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.14409375,"end":32.329718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.68284375,"end":55.836593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.25471875,"end":53.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.22471875,"end":59.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.61659375000001,"end":63.41346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.68346875,"end":65.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.82659375,"end":75.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.23846875000001,"end":80.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.74846875,"end":79.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.23784375000001,"end":81.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.11534375000001,"end":86.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.71784375,"end":96.91034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.22721875,"end":94.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.52659375,"end":95.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.99471875,"end":100.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":101.29784375000001,"end":102.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.14159375000001,"end":113.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.95846875000001,"end":113.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.97096875000001,"end":114.64596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.27471875,"end":114.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.34221875,"end":114.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.64596875000001,"end":115.91159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.91159375000001,"end":118.17284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.67909375,"end":118.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.69596875,"end":118.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.71284375,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.03346875000001,"end":119.64096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.72534375000001,"end":126.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.53846875,"end":129.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.32721875000001,"end":143.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.73846875,"end":144.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start"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周委員好好 局長好還有副局長以及副主委和副總"},{"start":23.973,"end":40.09,"text":"那麼我想今天我們在討論的呢就是關於司法調查的應用分析在電信心靈的使用上和商業學中有差別我先請教一下局長看你來我聊一下這個差別一般來講我們在使用電信心靈就是說所謂的中華電信類似的電信業者的這些手機訊號位置的時候"},{"start":41.052,"end":54.511,"text":"從商業或學術研究來講他是在去識別化之後去分析一個群體的輪廓那當然他根據的是個資法跟契約要當事人同意但是呢這個跟我們國安情報或犯罪偵查他是以刑事起訴"},{"start":56.474,"end":57.194,"text":"請問局長您對這樣的區分您是否同意?"},{"start":76.617,"end":100.096,"text":"對,本來就是按照依照法規來講就是要有這樣的區分對,那就我們的國安的相關的偵辦來講那它審查過程非常的嚴謹那尤其貴院所通過的通訪法也特別強調的概念是在於最小侵害的原則所以這部分是我們的依法行政主要的標準那吳局長這個跟你們的犯罪偵查是不是也是類似是這樣子"},{"start":104.101,"end":125.77,"text":"請問局長在我們國安及司法使用之後依法必須定期將這些年報送給立法院備查請問你們有根據通報法第16條之一有這樣做嗎有做了送到貴院來備查了調查局你們有嗎還是法務部報告當然有當然也有所以根據通報法現行的規定你們只要使用過之後都要送到立法院來備查對好謝謝兩位請回"},{"start":127.591,"end":153.157,"text":"好現在我們來看一下反而是現在各種的電信契約取得授權就很含糊啊我請教NCG副主委、翁副主委這是不是你們定型化契約的條款的38條他說假方因為業務上所掌握的就是電信業者掌握的乙方就是訂戶、用戶的有保密義務除了當事人要求查閱本身資料之外或者要符合各執法相關法令規定你們不得對電商介入這是不是你們定的"},{"start":154.297,"end":174.446,"text":"這個是按照我們電管法17條因為那個就是對用戶的各自的收集處理利用那有訂了這樣子一個定型化的企業那你來看一下遠傳電信的7月的第38條跟你們的一模一樣對不對沒有問題嘛遠傳的那第39條一樣嘛遠傳電信的7月第39條看得到嗎是一樣嘛好來中華電力林副總"},{"start":179.008,"end":201.161,"text":"很奇怪,你們中華電信的7月的第37條第2項就不太一樣你們說,乙方的資料,甲方如果有個人收集目的以外的使用目的以外使用,要得乙方的同意但是,如果甲方處理過,就是要去識別化確認第三人無法識別本人,去識別化之後就可以提供給第三人使用請問,你們的條款跟ECV一樣"},{"start":203.376,"end":230.252,"text":"當然不一樣嘛,你們有沒有取得乙方同意,你們去識別化之後就不需要取得乙方同意了嘛,是不是這樣子?報告委員,我想中華電信這邊相關的事項還是依照各自...我是問你這一條是你們寫的嘛,你們就跟NCC規定不一樣嘛,而且你們前面還說要得乙方同意,但是呢去識別化之後呢,欸就好像不...但就可以提供給第三人,到底要不要乙方同意,要不要乙方同意?"},{"start":232.318,"end":259.048,"text":"往下看 要不要以方同意去自編號之後你們的用戶資料要不要以方同意你們也講不出來嘛副主委知道了沒有你們訂的條款遠傳遵守啊中華電信的變造一下你覺得這樣有符合你們的規定嗎副主委請說報告委員那個這個部分我們會邀集三大電信業者要拉你你這有沒有職業回答問題嘛遠傳有照你們的規定走中華電信有沒有"},{"start":260.089,"end":280.027,"text":"這個部分的話,我們想說要拉起管制,要按照NCC的那個來處理。好,那我們來解決看,看遠傳做什麼啦,來往下看。這是遠傳的,遠傳的隱私權策略,他說收集這個範圍,但不限於,包括但不限於,很簡單耶,我可以看你的東西,但不限於這些東西,那我是不是什麼都可以看?"},{"start":281.194,"end":290.72,"text":"這個條款說我可以收集你的資料但不限於以下這些資料這些資料我一定要收集但是不限於這些資料遠傳的條款基本上也幫你看光光嘛你同意嗎"},{"start":293.578,"end":321.138,"text":"這邊我們就是說他要收集的時候事前他要自息同意事後他也可以控制可以option out這個是我們未來要求三大經驗者他要做什麼你看他要做行銷他要做非公務機關依法定義務所進行的各自的收集及利用他要做廣告跟商業行為他要做其他合乎營業登記的行為他要做調查統計研究他要做其他諮詢跟顧問服務幾乎無所不包啊他的使用目的是這些這誰訂的"},{"start":324.34,"end":350.299,"text":"這遠傳自己告訴你的什麼都可以看什麼都可以用往下看來盧秀燕市長的臺中市政府怎麼跟遠傳合作他可以透過這些資料瞭解國籍、年齡、性別、居住地他可以去分析跟你跟記者聯繫他可以聯繫到你私戀你的數位足跡、順由的景點住宿的概況、線上的行為社群使用的概況請問副主委你就是這樣的內容"},{"start":351.653,"end":370.97,"text":"有沒有超出商業應用還是已經到達了可以政治隱私的程度報委員這個重點是說他要去識別化而且他只能去識別化我也可以說不知道你是具體個人我透過你停留的地點你移動的方式你採用的行為我可以推斷是誰嗎不是嗎你覺得這樣可以接受嗎"},{"start":372.298,"end":396.557,"text":"法委,這邊我們會請,我會來督導三大電信業者。很好,接下來就是你的事了,往下看。金款會怎麼做?金融業它都有一個共同行銷特別商議條款。你們可不可以比照金融共同行銷去取得消費者的積極同意?我今天辦信用卡,他會告訴我,很清楚地告訴我一張紙。你們知道嗎?剛剛中華電信那個東西有沒有在給消費者的契約上?沒有!"},{"start":397.677,"end":403.028,"text":"在網路上你簽了你自己看就像反諮詢一樣把法律通過了再跟你報告"},{"start":404.738,"end":429.469,"text":"中華電信是不是這樣子我剛剛講那些內容你們有公布在你們的契約裡面嗎沒有你們公布在網站上我消費者跟你打了合約我跟你訂了手機我現在同意什麼內容我要上網去看副主委你知道嗎我知道他有用那個這樣可以嗎我想謝謝委員的指導這一部分我們會來努力把它拉起而且會比照那個金管會的那個來辦來副總"},{"start":431.03,"end":457.396,"text":"今天你是泡口焦點阿你們覺得這樣做可以嗎跟委員先報告一下齁我們那個各支的條款除了網站有公告之外在受理業務的時候網路上有公告我簽了你的條約我的契約上的書面沒有你叫我自己去網路上看他是分離的一個對這是個分離的行為主委、副主委聽到沒有分離的行為在本公司受理作業的時候會是這是你們制定的規定NC有沒有同意"},{"start":459.175,"end":473.613,"text":"分離的契約內容你簽了一個契約契約的文字你上網去看副主委來最後的結論跟委員再報告一下那他那個簽署的部分會包含上面所有的是啊我簽署這個契約部分的內容是要上網自己去看的副主委來"},{"start":474.694,"end":500.133,"text":"上週我在教會已經提出面諮詢了NCC目前進度我要求你們修正定型化契約簡易、顯著、告訴客戶的使用目的設計的欄位要供客戶勾選同意不得因客戶未同意就拒絕提供服務NCC是不是按照這個方式來處理八位我們在近期會來修訂那個定型化契約按照委員指導的方向來處理好那最後中華電信要不要配合修正"},{"start":500.934,"end":529.374,"text":"跟著委員報告我們目前在這一個各自告知事項的預設就是不同意所以要客戶選擇同意以後我們才會客戶不知道他同意了什麼啦你們的最大的問題就這裡啦謝謝副主委副主委什麼時候可以告訴我們告訴本委員會我想我們在年底之前會把那個電信化企業全部再重新修訂就按照委員指導的方式12月31號主席可以接受嗎"},{"start":531.584,"end":532.364,"text":"接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}