{"error":false,"id":["153849"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153849,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153849","日期":"2024-06-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-26","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":26,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-12T11:23:04+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-12T11:32:18+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:14","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8190623875d68c1cd6859a48fe1a1d57c38dd6f040307a1001a37ca193e531fa9a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:23:04 - 11:32:18","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":645,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時23分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請國安局蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你好。我跟你有幾次的詢答，我的感覺就是你人長得很帥、口才很好，但是講很多，講了半天，不知重點在哪，你知道嗎？就是像泥鰍一樣，常常你的回答都沒有hit the point，就是沒有講出來、沒有答案。今天大家都最關心大陸的前艇長或者艦長直衝淡水，你的答案就是任何可能都有，這樣你國安局不知道在做什麼，都不知道？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有、沒有，我們剛剛在跟媒體說明，除了任何可能都有以外，也特別提到我們國安單位未來要查察的重點，會放在當事人的解放軍背景，以及他在背後有沒有涉入到中共的一個操作手法。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，有沒有為這個事情開國安會議？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我剛剛也跟其他委員有報告過，在事情發生之後，國安會第一時間就召開了跨部會的協調會議，來釐清整個過程。"],["賴委員士葆：誰當主席？"],["蔡局長明彥：是由國安會吳秘書長主持的。"],["賴委員士葆：秘書長來主持？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["賴委員士葆：不是總統？這個問題叫做笑死全世界，對方對我們這麼敵意，然後一個快艇可以這樣長驅直入，如入無人之地，還自己上岸。請問他是自己報案還是被人家抓到？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分的整個過程，剛剛海巡署也跟其他委員有說明，也就是他在6浬外的時候，海巡署的雷達就已經掌握到這艘小艇的位置，後續在做判讀上，可能有做一些誤判，所以才有昨天做了一些查處。"],["賴委員士葆：你看喔！他到了這個位置，那個時間又是漲潮，他從漁人碼頭到大佳碼頭，什麼意思？到圓山指揮所、衡山指揮所、海軍司令部不到1個小時欸！到大稻埕碼頭、總統府這裡，都不到1個小時，很可怕欸！你不覺得這個事情很可怕嗎？這是很嚴肅的問題啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這個案例確實很特別。"],["賴委員士葆：是不是要很緊張？整個國防、海防不知道在做什麼！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這個案例確實有引起我們高度關注，特別是當事人自稱他有解放軍的背景，所以對於各種推論，我為什麼一開始會講各種可能都有，也就是委員剛剛講的可能性也都在其中，所以這也是後續查察的重點，因為檢方已經啟辦偵查了，我們這部分就尊重檢方。"],["賴委員士葆：就在我質詢前2分鐘、前3分鐘，國台辦講話了，說這是個人行為，不要過度解讀，你怎麼看這句話？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們有在注意中方相關的資訊，有時候有出現這種類似灰色地帶的襲擾，我們看到中共有一些媒體會做一些訊息操作，目前有在注意，還沒有看到大規模的訊息操作。"],["賴委員士葆：他剛發布喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這是官方的說法。"],["賴委員士葆：官方的說法。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["賴委員士葆：說是個人行為，它沒有介入，可是我都很質疑，我都懷疑，他一艘幾萬塊的快艇，可以開這麼久嗎？開十幾個小時。"],["蔡局長明彥：剛剛海巡署也在針對委員的說明……他有說明這部分，就他的油料還有他的航程，海巡有做了相關的足跡推演。"],["賴委員士葆：海巡署再講一遍。"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，這艘船據供述是從寧德出港，距離我們臺灣大概就是136浬，而油量的話，我們查了，出發時是260公升，船上還有備用的油桶，到淡水已經剩下133公升，從這個跡證跟相關的電子取證部分，我們研判這個說法是合理，但是不排除任何可能。另外……"],["賴委員士葆：大船載小船，有沒有這個可能？大船載小船這樣下來？"],["謝副署長慶欽：目前是臆測，因為沒有具體事證，我們勘驗現場時，該船沒有任何吊掛的設備，我們現在在深入查證中，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：好。蔡局長，我提醒你，以前的國共內戰，老共最流行的是什麼？前面一堆漁船，主力艦隊在後面，這個也不排除他來探路，是不是這樣？"],["蔡局長明彥：是、對，剛剛也是在分析整個案情，我們認為各種可能性都有，不能夠排除。"],["賴委員士葆：幾個可能你告訴我們，不要唬弄，有幾個可能，跟我們講一下。"],["蔡局長明彥：檢方在偵辦，第一部分有可能是有中共配合到這一陣子的灰帶的操作，變成是個案之一，這是一種可能性，那第二種可能性是如當事人他自己陳述的，因為他嚮往臺灣的自由，他要來這邊投奔自由，當然這是第二種可能。"],["賴委員士葆：這個可能性高嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為我們本身並沒有調查權，必須由檢方再抽絲剝繭蒐集相關的證據。另外，可能要注意到的是，我們也有相關的跡證，剛剛海巡署也提到了，因為雷達對於他的航跡都有相關的掌握，還要再配合到他自述的相關證詞，比如說，他是從哪個地方出發，回溯他的數位足跡，以及海巡署的雷達回放，也都要做資料的判讀。"],["賴委員士葆：簡單來講，我們可以歸納為兩個，第一個就是個人行為，第二個就是有計畫的來探路。"],["蔡局長明彥：是、是、對，剛剛也是跟委員這樣報告。"],["賴委員士葆：簡單就是這麼講，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，兩個樣態。"],["賴委員士葆：兩個樣態哪一個可能性高？"],["蔡局長明彥：這要由有司法警察權的單位來……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以有答案？"],["蔡局長明彥：我沒有辦法替檢察官來回答這個問題。"],["賴委員士葆：好，另外一個，美國要把臺灣海峽打造成無人地獄，這個可能性高不高？"],["蔡局長明彥：剛剛進來會場也有媒體在關注這件事，以國安局來講，對於國外的相關政府部門或機構，有對臺海情勢的研判或各種預案的推演，我們都予以尊重，它反映的是國際社會對於臺海情勢的關注程度越來越高。"],["賴委員士葆：這個我們要想到一個，那老共不會打飛彈就好了嗎？飛彈難道不可以打嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，各種劇本都有，但這還是有涉及到中共的政治目的，它政治目的是什麼，才會有各種犯臺方案的推動。"],["賴委員士葆：可是美國那麼緊張，說要把臺灣海峽變成無人地獄的話，我都很怕臺灣島變成無人地獄喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：他的意思，無人地獄應該是說會增加中共在渡海過程當中的戰爭成本。"],["賴委員士葆：他不用渡海啊！可以用飛彈，不是嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：他是針對這個場景，他是針對假如說有渡海的相關犯臺方案的話……"],["賴委員士葆：只防渡海，不防飛彈，就是這個意思。"],["蔡局長明彥：各種，他只是提到其中的方案之一。"],["賴委員士葆：最後一個，我們的委員、將軍、副部長陳永康公開說了，其實重點都不在……兩岸不用擔心……不用去講臺灣能撐多久，一旦打仗，48小時以內能不能恢復電力？國安局做過推演沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：對於那個……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，對於能源的安全跟能源的韌性，不是只有推演而已，這個部分有跨部會的……"],["賴委員士葆：48小時以內恢復能源、恢復供電、恢復醫療，有沒有可能？"],["蔡局長明彥：有跨部會的機制在協調，我們有從國安的角度提供給目的事業主管機關參考，指的是經濟部，經濟部這邊有……"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有回答我啊！到底48小時這個部分可不可能？要讓我們安心啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會全力來強化臺灣相關的能源……"],["賴委員士葆：你看，這就是一開始我跟你講的，我問你都不答啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：有些不是歸我們國安局的業管，報告委員，那些方案是由……"],["賴委員士葆：國安局要統合啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有、沒有，我們是應邀來參加跨部會的協調，提供的是相關可能的樣態，還有情報的分享給事業主管機關來做相關預案的……"],["賴委員士葆：你應該有這個情報，一旦打仗，臺灣的電能不能撐48小時，應該有這個資料，怎麼沒有呢？你講沒有，我不相信欸。"],["蔡局長明彥：對啊！所以我是認為應該要由經濟部來對外說明，我們不應該越俎代庖替它做這方面的陳述。"],["賴委員士葆：你已經有資料、有答案了，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們大概都有做過相關的討論。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛！所以你在這裡不答，問題就是這樣，就是我剛剛跟你講的，人很帥、口才很好，講半天，不知道在講什麼，這是我對國安局長的一個評價。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，我們要嚴守我們的分際，我們要尊重其他主管機關的權責。"],["賴委員士葆：來立法院這裡要講實話啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["賴委員士葆：你剛剛已經都有資料，就要講啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有做過相關的推演。"],["賴委員士葆：你還是沒講、你還是沒講啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有做過相關推演，但詳細的狀況要由主管單位來說明，因為它的數字也許不斷在變動當中，我怕我提供的也許不是最新的數字，請委員可以理解。"],["賴委員士葆：不理解啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員，國安單位其實應該要跟國人做相關的報告，因為即使是有不同的數據資料，現階段國安局應該是掌握最即時的，而這個部分，因為我們開委員會還是希望國安局可以提供相關的資料，讓國人更清楚，因為如果我們是處在危險之中，我們應該怎麼應處，這個應該也要知道。以921大地震來說，48小時要把它恢復，老實說很困難，我們歷經921大地震的時候，我們的電力是經過很多天才恢復的，所以這個部分，我們還是希望就整體國安的一個狀況、現況，還有未來的處置、作為，都應該要即時地讓全民知道，也讓立法院知道，謝謝。","接下來請羅明才委員、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","請李坤城委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.06471875,"end":1.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.3934687500000003,"end":3.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.68346875,"end":10.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.51846875,"end":13.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.277843750000002,"end":14.070968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.442218750000002,"end":15.910343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.129718750000002,"end":17.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.344718750000002,"end":20.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.141593750000002,"end":22.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.47034375,"end":24.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.1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謝謝主席 賴委員好你好 這個我跟你幾次的巡打我的感覺就是你人長很帥口才很好但是講很多講了半天你才重點一代你知道嗎 就是像泥鰍一樣"},{"start":29.707,"end":37.695,"text":"你常常就是你的回答都沒有HIT THE POINT就是沒有講出來沒有答案"},{"start":38.393,"end":38.553,"text":"請問你請問你"},{"start":69.161,"end":86.172,"text":"有沒有為這個事情開國安會議?有,我剛剛也跟其他委員有報告過在事情發生之後那國安會第一時間就召開了跨部會的協調會議來釐清這個的過程是由國安會的秘書長主持的秘書長來主持?不是總統嗎?這個問題叫做笑死全世界"},{"start":93.493,"end":94.193,"text":"你看喔!他到了這個位置!"},{"start":123.294,"end":125.155,"text":"那個時間又是漲潮他到大家從雲林碼頭到大家碼頭什麼意思沿山指揮所、橫山指揮所、海軍司令部不到一個小時耶大稻埕碼頭總統這裡都不到一個小時總統府這裡很可怕耶你不覺得這事情很可怕嗎"},{"start":145.166,"end":173.014,"text":"這個很嚴肅的問題啊對,這個案例確實很特別是不是很緊張?我們的國防、海防、國防你在幹什麼呢?對,這個案例確實有引起我們的高度的關注特別是當事人他有自己稱他有解放軍的背景所以對於各種的推論我為什麼一開始會講各種可能都有也就是委員剛剛講的可能性也都在其中所以這也是後續查查重點那因為檢方已經期盼偵查了我們這部分就讓觀眾檢發就像我質詢前兩分鐘"},{"start":183.297,"end":196.861,"text":"我們在注意中方相關的資訊有時候有出現這種類似灰色地帶的襲擾我們看到中共有一些媒體會做一些訊息操作目前在注意還沒有看到大規模的訊息操作還沒有"},{"start":197.386,"end":208.523,"text":"他剛發布喔對這是官方的說法官方的說法對說個人行為他沒有介入可是我都很質疑啊我都懷疑啊他一燒幾萬塊的快艇可以開這麼久嗎開十幾個小時"},{"start":213.174,"end":240.531,"text":"有關海巡署也在針對委員的說明對,他有說明這部分就他的油料還有他的航程海巡有做了相關的足跡的推移再講一遍報告委員,這一艘船的話他攻速是從寧德出港那距離我們台灣大概就是136海浬那油料我們查的話出發時是260公升船上還有備用的油桶到淡水已經剩下133"},{"start":242.622,"end":243.262,"text":"蔡局長提醒你"},{"start":271.374,"end":275.455,"text":"是,對,剛剛也是在分析整個案情,我們認為各種可能性都有,不能夠排除。"},{"start":290.639,"end":313.433,"text":"幾個可能告訴我們不要糊弄幾個可能跟我們講一下檢方在偵辦但第一個部分有可能是有中共配合到這一陣子的揮帶的操作他變成是個案之一這是一種可能性第二種可能性是如當事人他自己的陳述的因為他對於想往台灣的自由他要來這邊投奔自由當然這是第二種可能性"},{"start":315.335,"end":339.857,"text":"因為我們本身並沒有調查權那必須要有檢方在更抽絲剝繭的來收集相關的證據那另外可能也要注意到的是我們也有相關的機證剛剛海巡署也提到了因為雷達對於它的航機都有相關的掌握那還要再配合到它自述的相關的證詞比如說它是從哪個地方出發那回溯它的數位以及海巡署的雷達回放也都要"},{"start":340.337,"end":342.839,"text":"美國要把台灣海峽打造成無人地獄,這個可能性高不高?"},{"start":368.159,"end":390.254,"text":"剛剛進來會場也有媒體在關注這件事那國安局來講對於國外的相關的政府部門或機構有對台海情勢的研判或各種預案的推演我們都予以尊重那他反映的是國際社會對於台海情勢的關注程度越來越高這個我馬上想到一個老公不會打飛彈就好了嗎?飛彈難道不可以打嗎?"},{"start":390.933,"end":392.314,"text":"可是如果這樣子美國這樣子那麼緊張說把台灣現在變成無人地獄的話我都很怕說台灣打變無人地獄喔"},{"start":410.82,"end":430.704,"text":"對,他的意思,無人地獄應該是說會增加中共在渡海過程當中的戰爭成本他不用渡海啊,飛彈啊,不是對,他是針對這個場景,他是針對假如說有渡海的相關的犯台方案的話只防渡海,不防飛彈,就這個意思沒有,各種,他只是提到其中的方案之一最後一個,我們的委員,將軍陳永康部長公開說了"},{"start":434.932,"end":456.745,"text":"其實重點都不在兩岸不用擔心不用去講台灣能撐多久一旦打戰48小時以內能不能恢復電力你國安局做過推演沒有對對於那個有沒有有能源的安全跟能源的韌性不是就退演而已這個部分48小時以內恢復人員恢復供電恢復醫療有沒有可能"},{"start":457.168,"end":465.752,"text":"有跨部會的機制在協調那我們有從國安的角度來提供給目的事業主管機關來參考指的是經濟部這個48小時可不可能啊要讓我們安心啊對我們會全力的來強化台灣的相關的對不起一開始我跟你講的啊"},{"start":473.855,"end":495.2,"text":"我問你都不答有些不是歸我國安局的業管報告委員那些方案是由你國安局統合啊沒有沒有我們是應邀來參加跨部會的協調那提供的是相關的可能樣態還有情報的分享給事業主管機關來做相關你應該有這樣的情報啊一旦打戰台灣的電能不能撐48小時應該有這個資料怎麼沒有呢"},{"start":496.041,"end":506.46,"text":"你講沒有我不相信你對阿所以我是認為說應該要由經濟部來對外說明我們不應該來越處代跑來替他做這方面的陳述你已經有答案了對不對"},{"start":507.686,"end":523.671,"text":"對,大概,我們大概都有做過相關的討論和推演。對嘛,所以你這裡不答,我的問題就是現在,就是我剛剛跟你講的,人很帥,口才很好,講幾波,不知道你在講什麼,這樣。老師,我對國安局長的一個評價。沒有,我們要守我們的憤忌啊,我們要尊重其他主管機關的權責。不是,來,立法院這裡要講實話啊。"},{"start":527.885,"end":528.806,"text":"謝謝賴委員 國安其實應該要跟國人做"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}