{"error":false,"id":["153852"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153852,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153852","日期":"2024-06-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-16","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":16,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-12T11:27:41+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-12T11:40:40+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:59","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819f4dd13fb5b16e8320fec08313b105ec0dd6f040307a1001a507306caf82e4edd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:27:41 - 11:40:40","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及6月13日兩天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":664,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時27分）謝謝主席！請數發部林次長。"],["主席：請數發部林次長。"],["邱委員志偉：次長，賴總統在出席臺北電腦展時提出三項的政策目標，是你們報告裡面寫的。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["邱委員志偉：「穩定供電」，穩定供電這部分當然主管機關是經濟部、是台電。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["邱委員志偉：請台電王總經理也一起來好了，那個電是超級電腦，次長。部長，沒關係，我問王總經理，因為王總在管電的。"],["主席：部長請回座。"],["邱委員志偉：穩定供電這一點，總統的要求有辦法做到嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，台電在未來這幾年，我們大概有十幾部機組正在興建或規劃中。"],["邱委員志偉：是，你要說短期1年、中期3到5年、長期10年，你要做電力的規劃，按照AI產業的發展，我覺得電力供應，我最信任你啦！"],["王總經理耀庭：是，跟委員報告，目前……"],["邱委員志偉：供電能不能穩定？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們已經正在興建中的機組，光趕工中有包括大潭7號到9號、興達1號到3號，還有臺中的1號到2號，這麼多部的機組正在興建中。"],["邱委員志偉：你可以拍胸脯說沒有問題？"],["王總經理耀庭：沒問題啦！"],["邱委員志偉：中期跟長期都沒有問題？"],["王總經理耀庭：還有包括招標中的、已經通過環評的跟還沒有通過環評的一堆機組。"],["邱委員志偉：為了AI產業發展，短、中、長期電力供應，你來拍胸脯說沒有問題。"],["王總經理耀庭：沒問題。"],["邱委員志偉：請回座。"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["邱委員志偉：建置超級電腦，在2018年我們誕生了台灣杉，對不對？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["邱委員志偉：那個時候投入多少的經費？你不要東張西望，我跟你講4.3億啦！那時候是科技部提供給國網中心4.3億，在2018年建立台灣杉，是臺灣特有種嘛！"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["邱委員志偉：它那時候的計算能量在全球排名是多少？你也不知道？"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，因為這個是國科會的主管。"],["邱委員志偉：不過已經變成你們的業務嘛？我跟你講……"],["林次長宜敬：但是那個國網中心現在不是由數位部負責的。"],["邱委員志偉：現在它的計算比當時在2018年上線的時候是全球95名？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["邱委員志偉：建置這種超級電腦是你的工作，還是國發會的工作？"],["林次長宜敬：是國科會的工作。"],["邱委員志偉：國科會？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["邱委員志偉：來，請國科會。"],["主席：請國科會。"],["邱委員志偉：我剛剛講的數據您知道嗎？"],["林副主任委員法正：我知道。"],["邱委員志偉：你都知道喔？我好像問錯對象了，不好意思！你現在的容量啊，在2024到今年年底，你要到16PetaFLOPS對不對？到明年你要到100PetaFLOPS、到2028年要200PetaFLOPS，這種超級電腦的算力啊，你在2018年我們的計算能量是全球排名第95，好，按照你的目標值，你要2028年才到200PetaFLOPS，要投入多少經費？"],["林副主任委員法正：跟委員大概講一個數字，我們最近有看過，就是如果採用NVIDIA最新的200PetaFLOPS的話，要一百多億吧！一百三十幾億。"],["邱委員志偉：我剛才提出的數據，你只要告訴我，你的目標至2028年要到200PetaFLOPS？"],["林副主任委員法正：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你要建置、提升算力要增加多少預算？"],["林副主任委員法正：就光電腦本身要一百三十幾億，當然你還要蓋Data Center，Data Center裡面要有空調及一些其他基礎的設施，那個還要另外三、四十億。"],["邱委員志偉：所以加起來200億？200億你到2028年才提升到200PetaFLOPS，對不對？"],["林副主任委員法正：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你那個虛擬的園區，本來你們主委有說園區是虛擬的概念嗎？"],["林副主任委員法正：虛擬基本上是在寫軟體，那個是數發部的主責。"],["邱委員志偉：對啦！現在生態園區是虛擬的，還是實體的？這個請數發部說明。"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，現在我們政府工作職掌的分工是這樣子，就是國發會這邊要負責硬體跟軟體，他們這邊都有規劃；我們數發部主要是負責軟體，軟體產業特性是因為在上下游產業之間，並沒有實體貨物的運輸。而且現在軟體人才大部分都是……"],["邱委員志偉：所以我的感覺就是，數發部、國科會跟國發會好像大家都沒有完全整合，大家工作雖然有分工，但是沒有有效整合？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["邱委員志偉：包括國發會的這個報告，你們的微笑曲線是失衡的，對不對？在製造的部分是最底端，然後前端的技術研發它的條件非常好，但是智慧應用全球占比是非常低的，你說智慧應用的部分就是軟體的部分，軟體的部分是誰負責的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：軟體的部分是數發部負責。"],["邱委員志偉：對啊！數發部負責的，好，數發部你要怎麼樣把目前占比低於1%的提升到什麼目標值？有沒有一個目標值？"],["林次長宜敬：抱歉！請問委員是什麼……"],["邱委員志偉：你現況智慧應用全球占比是低於1%，所以微笑曲線它是不均衡的微笑嘛！那麼你要把這個微笑變得更美好的微笑，不可以好像是歪著嘴巴的微笑這樣子，你那個微笑曲線要把它提升到多少目標？這個微笑曲線才會更漂亮？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，我們現在有一個目標，我們原來在這個部分占全國GDP的比重是1.2%，我們希望把它成倍到2.4%的GDP全國性占比。"],["邱委員志偉：全球占比你大概要達到多少目標？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：如果是這樣的話，全球占比也是要翻倍耶！"],["邱委員志偉：翻倍就是從不到1%變成2%？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前短期目標是這樣子，長期我們當然希望它能夠占30%以上。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你覺得現在的微笑曲線是不是一個不均衡的微笑曲線？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前是不均衡，所以我們才要大力地讓它均衡，尤其是抓到我們可以高速成長的地方。"],["邱委員志偉：現在軟體的部分是數發部要負責的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，我們會一起共同做，我們已經開過兩次會議了。"],["邱委員志偉：建置超級電腦我繼續請教，你剛剛說的這個，2028年要到200PetaFLOPS，如果這個算力到2028年你們達標，在國際上的計算能力、計算能量評比大概是多少？"],["林副主任委員法正：我請國網中心主任跟您報告。"],["張主任朝亮：報告委員，這個每年都在改變，照現在來看，如果有200PetaFLOPS，大概可以列到前10名以內。"],["邱委員志偉：前10名？"],["張主任朝亮：對。"],["邱委員志偉：我們本來2018年是全世界95名，如果2028年到你們的目標──200PetaFLOPS，可以到全球前10名？"],["張主任朝亮：報告委員，我稍微更正一下，在2018年的時候，台灣杉二號其實是排第20名，是AI的machine。"],["邱委員志偉：是這樣子嗎？"],["張主任朝亮：對，你剛剛提的那個CPU machine。"],["邱委員志偉：那麼你的目標2028年提升到全球前10名，在亞洲我們相對競爭的國家，比方韓國、日本，他們這方面的計算能量有沒有超出臺灣？"],["張主任朝亮：當然，兩個國家都超過臺灣。"],["邱委員志偉：日本是多少？"],["張主任朝亮：日本是超級電腦大國……"],["邱委員志偉：南韓也是。"],["張主任朝亮：所以它可以說是上千的petaFLOPS。"],["邱委員志偉：這200會不會太過保守？"],["張主任朝亮：我個人的意見是有一點，但是我們現在已經在規劃擴充當中。"],["邱委員志偉：你說你的目標就是建置超級電腦，算力要提升，還有伺服器要增加，對不對？你說重點就是伺服器跟算力，國網中心主任又說這個太過保守。"],["林副主任委員法正：對，那個……"],["邱委員志偉：為什麼達不到400？"],["林副主任委員法正：是，因為政府整體的科技預算還是有限制，我們現在做的就是尋求國際廠商的合作，例如我們會要求這些國際大廠，它既然要來臺灣生產，是不是也應該協助臺灣建立超級電腦？我們現在是朝這一方面。如果兩相加成的話，應該會超過200，超過滿多的。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得這個目標實在太過保守，你最起碼double到400，你看日本多少？日本現況是多少？"],["林副主任委員法正：500到1000。"],["邱委員志偉：我們到2028才到200，這樣太過保守吧？我們怎麼樣跟其他國家競爭？"],["林副主任委員法正：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，最後壓軸請經濟部部長。"],["主席：我們請郭部長。"],["邱委員志偉：郭部長，我完全由你的報告來跟您請教，經濟部要建立專屬生成式AI核心技術，應用在臺灣的製造跟服務業，這個部分什麼時候可以完成？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的計畫應該是在……"],["邱委員志偉：你們要建立專屬生成式AI核心技術，這個核心技術是什麼東西？"],["郭部長智輝：這個計畫馬上會送出來。"],["邱委員志偉：那要花多少錢？你們要建立這個，是你們的報告寫的，我用你的報告問你。目標是要協助產業AI化，產業包括傳統產業，也包括中小企業，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["邱委員志偉：你要讓所有產業都達到AI化，所以你要建置我們自己專屬的AI核心技術。什麼時候會出來？"],["郭部長智輝：今年會送出來，但是我們大概要花2億的預算。"],["邱委員志偉：2億就可以把生成式AI的核心技術……"],["郭部長智輝：因為是最底層的應用工程師……"],["邱委員志偉：2億就可以讓所有產業AI化？"],["郭部長智輝：那是應用，就是它操作的訓練……"],["邱委員志偉：你們講的還是太空泛、太抽象，要能夠更具體地說明你們怎麼做、這個核心技術的內涵是什麼、能夠達到預期的效果，是不是可以有一個書面資料給我們？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["邱委員志偉：你引進國際大廠，目前有沒有口袋名單？"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["邱委員志偉：有幾家？"],["郭部長智輝：目前有三家。"],["邱委員志偉：我就不問你是哪三家，這有時候是機密問題。","另外，第3頁有說你的具體措施，是要透過驗證及大帶小的方式普及、擴散，建立產業導入AI指引，這個部分產創條例也要修第十條之一，對不對？讓租稅優惠能夠調整。這個部分我來幫忙。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["邱委員志偉：你加快速度把它送進來。你要怎麼樣建立產業導入AI的指引？這個什麼時候會出來？"],["郭部長智輝：一個月裡面應該可以把這個計畫送出來。"],["邱委員志偉：製造業的AI加速普及，服務業的AI有沒有可能普及？"],["郭部長智輝：服務業也是一樣，服務業也是要用到AI……"],["邱委員志偉：我一直覺得你們偏重製造業，對於中小企業、服務業，如何讓他們的產業AI化，這個也很重要。"],["郭部長智輝：服務業的話我們大概會scan它的monitoring，它可以……"],["邱委員志偉：一般坊間、產業界都說我們重視製造業裡面的高階或者高科技產業，傳統製造業或中小型的部分卻得不到政府太多的關愛。"],["郭部長智輝：服務業或者商業，我們對盤點庫存或者是銷售都可以應對。"],["邱委員志偉：這個要擴大宣傳，讓這些中小企業跟服務業知道，經濟部、政府幫他們做哪些前瞻性的規劃跟政策作為，這個都要廣為宣傳。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請陳超明委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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對不對我那個虛擬的這個園區啊虛擬的園區本來是那個你們主委"},{"start":275.086,"end":283.74,"text":"有說的園區是虛擬的概念嗎?那個虛擬就是基本上是在寫軟體那個是那個速發部的主則以下生態園區是虛擬的還是實體的?這個速發部"},{"start":287.914,"end":296.122,"text":"跟委員報告現在我們政府的那個工作職長的分工是這樣子就是說國發部國發會這邊是要負責那個有硬體跟軟體都是他們都是要負責這邊都有規劃那我們那個數發部主要是負責軟體那因為軟體產業這個特性是"},{"start":307.552,"end":334.443,"text":"因為在上下游產業之間並沒有實體貨物的運輸而且現在那個軟體人才大部分都是...所以我的感覺就是說數位發展部、國科會跟這個...呃...呃...國...國發會對好像雙...大家這個沒有完全整合大家這個工作雖然有分工但是沒有有效整合是所以包括國發會的這個...的報告你的微笑曲線是私橫的對不對"},{"start":336.144,"end":359.74,"text":"在這個製造的部分是最底端然後這個前端的技術研發它的條件非常好但是智慧應用全球佔比是非常低的所以這部分你說智慧應用的部分這是軟體的部分軟體的部分是誰負責的軟體部分是速發部對啊你速發部速發部你要怎麼樣把目前的佔比低於1%要提升到什麼目標值"},{"start":361.055,"end":377.809,"text":"有沒有一個目標值?你現況智慧應用全球占比是低1%嘛!所以微笑體驗是不均衡的微笑嘛!那你要把這微笑變得更美好的微笑!不能像歪嘴巴的微笑"},{"start":378.968,"end":400.765,"text":"你這微笑曲線你要把它提升到多少目標你這微笑曲線才會更漂亮各位委員報告我們現在有一個目標那我們原來在這個部分占全國GDP的比重是1.2%我們希望把它成倍到2.4%的GDP那全球占比你要大概要達到多少目標如果是這樣的話全球占比也是要翻倍"},{"start":401.758,"end":427.222,"text":"反正就是從不到1%變成2%目前的短期目標是這樣長期我們當然希望它能夠佔30%以上所以你覺得現在的微效曲線是不是一個不均衡的微效曲線目前是不均衡所以我們才要大力的讓它均衡那尤其是抓到我們可以高速成長的地方所以在軟體的部分是速發部要負責的是的我們會一起共同做我們開過兩次會議了那個"},{"start":431.912,"end":448.249,"text":"建制超級電腦我繼續請教你剛剛說的到2028要到200 petaflop如果這個算力到2028你們達標在國際上的計算能力計算能量平比大概是多少"},{"start":451.346,"end":473.676,"text":"我請那個國防中心主任跟您報告報告委員這個每年都在改變照現在來看如果有200PF大概可以列到前10名以內我們本來2018是這個全世界95名那如果2028到你們的目標200PF可以到這個全球前10名"},{"start":474.666,"end":489.318,"text":"報告委員我稍微更正一下2018的時候台灣32號其實是排20名第20名是AI的MACHINE是這樣子嗎對你剛剛提的那個CPUMACHINE那你的目標2028前任到全球前10名在亞洲我們相對的這個競爭的國家比方韓國、日本"},{"start":491.954,"end":512.82,"text":"他的這方面的計算能量有沒有超出台灣?當然,兩個國家都超過台灣日本是多少?日本它是超級電腦的大國所以它其實都是可以說上千個配套所以這200會不會太未保守?我個人意見是有一點,但是我們現在已經在規劃擴充當中"},{"start":514.74,"end":530.245,"text":"所以你說你的目標就是建制超級電腦就是你的算力要提升嘛還有伺服器要增加嘛 對不對你說所謂的重點就是伺服器跟這個算力那你算力他說這個市長就說這個國防中心主任就說這個太過於保守"},{"start":531.125,"end":557.748,"text":"對 那為什麼不能double到400呢是是 跟委員報告齁因為政府的整體的科技預算還是有限制所以我們現在做的就是也是在尋求國際廠商的合作例如我們會跟國際這些大廠他既然要來台灣生產的話他是不是也應該要協助台灣建立超級電腦我們現在是朝這一方面那如果兩相加成的話應該會超過200 超過蠻多的我覺得這個目標實在太過於保守你最起碼要double到400你看日本有多少"},{"start":559.366,"end":564.607,"text":"日本現況是多少?500到1000500到1000?我們2028才到200那太被剝削吧那我們怎麼樣跟其他國家競爭另外部長最後這個壓軸請部長經濟部部長我們請郭部長"},{"start":581.397,"end":607.349,"text":"部長我完全由你的報告來跟您請教這個經濟部在建立專屬生成式AI核心技術運用在台灣的製造跟服務業這個部分什麼時候可以完成我們的計畫應該是在這個你們要建立專屬生成式的AI核心技術這個核心技術是什麼東西馬上會這個計畫馬上會送出來"},{"start":610.609,"end":638.885,"text":"那要花多少錢?你們要建立這個你們報告寫的我用你的報告來問你啊目標是要協助產業AI化產業包括傳統產業也包括中小企業對不對你要讓所有產業都能夠達到AI化所以你要建置我們自己專屬的AI核心技術那什麼時候會出來?我們應該馬上今年會送出來但是我們大概要花兩億的這個預算"},{"start":640.902,"end":668.349,"text":"兩億就可以把這個生成式的AI我是最底層的應用工程師兩億就可以讓所有產業讓它AI化那是應用嘛就是說一個它操作的訓練你們講的還是太空泛還是太抽象能夠更具體的把你們怎麼做這個核心技術的內涵是什麼能夠達到預學效果是不是可以有一個書面資料給我們然後你引進國際大廠你目前有沒有口袋名單"},{"start":670.407,"end":694.643,"text":"有幾家目前有三家目前有三家那我就不問你是哪三家有時候是機密問題另外最後一頁第三頁你要說你的具體的措施要透過驗證或代小方式來普及擴散然後建立產業導入AI之一"},{"start":697.43,"end":724.444,"text":"這個部分你們船上條例也要修十之一對不對讓租稅優惠能夠調整這個部分我來幫忙我來幫忙你加快速度把它送進來那你要怎麼樣建立這個產業導入AI的指引這個什麼時候會出來一樣我們這個應該是在這個一個月裡面應該可以把這個計畫送出來吧那你製造業的AI普及加速那服務業的AI有沒有可能普及"},{"start":725.165,"end":741.992,"text":"服務業也是一樣我一直覺得你們偏重在製造業那對於這個中小企業對於這個服務業這如何讓他這個產業AI化這也是很重要服務業的話我們大概會在那個scan他的那個模擬品"},{"start":742.912,"end":768.168,"text":"所以一般坊間這些產業就是說我們重視製造業製造業裡面的高階或高科技產業傳統的製造業或中小型的製造業卻得不到政府的太多的關愛報告委員服務業或商業我們對盤點庫存或是銷售的都可以擔憂讓這些中小型企業跟服務業知道說我們經濟部、政府幫他們做了哪些前瞻性的規劃"},{"start":769.309,"end":770.17,"text":"跟政策的作為﹐這個要廣為宣傳"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}