{"error":false,"id":["153853"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153853,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153853","日期":"2024-06-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-26","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":26,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-12T11:33:25+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-12T11:41:17+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:52","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8190f08364b581ed6c159a48fe1a1d57c38dd6f040307a1001a6a0518872308de285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:33:25 - 11:41:17","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":726,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時33分）謝謝主席，我們請國安局蔡局長，還有海巡署謝副署長。"],["主席：請蔡局長，還有謝副署長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，李委員好。"],["李委員坤城：局長好。剛剛我聽到針對中國快艇長驅直入淡水河口這件事情，昨天國安會有開過會議，是不是？"],["蔡局長明彥：有開。"],["李委員坤城：有開。那有沒有什麼會議的結論可以公開跟大家講？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為那個會議是有列密等，所以我不方便轉述會議的內容。但是會議的討論重點有針對怎麼樣來釐清相關的案情，以及後續我們在海防或邊境的安全上有沒有要精進的作為，都有做相關的討論。"],["李委員坤城：就公開的部分，因為現在大家都在關心，一艘快艇可以從中國福州的寧德港就這樣長驅直入進來我們淡水河口，這是何等大事！所以我才問國安單位有沒有做這件事情。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["李委員坤城：已經發生兩、三天了，有沒有什麼樣的一個公開說明，可以讓全民來放心的？"],["蔡局長明彥：在相關精進作為的部分，有特別提到未來的通報機制的精進，另外，對於一些海空狀況的監偵設備，可能可以再有更進一步的提升。"],["李委員坤城：我講幾個時序表，海巡署也在這邊，6月8號這位阮性男子駕快艇從中國福州的寧德港出發，有知道他大概出發的時間是哪時候嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們請海巡署來提供詳細的數字。"],["謝副署長慶欽：它總共航行12小時，在6月9號早上11點10分靠港，所以應該是6月8號凌晨的時候。"],["李委員坤城：從福州寧德港出發。"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們預判總共是12個小時。"],["李委員坤城：好，6月9號快艇在通過12浬的時候大概是6月9號的哪時候，有掌握到嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：這個小艇，規定的話是在3浬偵測到，我們9點44分在6浬就偵測到了。"],["李委員坤城：所以通過我們領海12浬的時候沒有任何雷達或是怎麼樣的一個裝置可以偵測到？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們是近岸雷達，因為設置高度和反射波的問題，一般來講是12浬可以偵測得到。小艇的話，一般來講3浬偵測得到，這個案子我們6浬就抓到了。"],["李委員坤城：以後他們派小艇過來就好啦！"],["謝副署長慶欽：但是6浬我們看到之後，如果9點44分……"],["李委員坤城：我的意思說，到了12浬我們領海的時候，我們完全偵測不到嗎？如果它是快艇的話。"],["謝副署長慶欽：偵測得到，它有光點是忽明忽暗，這個時候雷操手依規定就要盯著這艘……"],["李委員坤城：你講的是6浬，還是12浬？"],["謝副署長慶欽：12浬就看得到。"],["李委員坤城：12浬就看得到？"],["謝副署長慶欽：6浬的時候是確定。"],["李委員坤城：所以12浬的時候我們的雷達手沒有看到？"],["謝副署長慶欽：有看到，但是沒辦法確定是一個漁船，因為它的光點是忽明忽暗，比較小，到6浬的時候確定。"],["李委員坤城：到6浬的時候是9點44分，6浬的時候有被偵測到了？"],["謝副署長慶欽：雷達標定、編號確定！"],["李委員坤城：但還是沒有辦法辨識它是屬於我們的，還是屬於中國的？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，只有光點。"],["李委員坤城：已經到6浬囉！"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["李委員坤城：9點52分的時候到3浬，那我們是只有加強監控，沒有實際的攔截行為嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：依規定在6浬發現之後就要通報，並視威脅程度派艦艇攔截登檢。"],["李委員坤城：所以6浬的時候有通報嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：有通報安檢所跟守望哨，可是巡防區沒有通報海巡隊的線上艇或預備艇出來攔截跟登檢，這是缺失。"],["李委員坤城：這是缺失嘛？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["李委員坤城：到3浬了，已經慢慢推進了。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["李委員坤城：10點19分的時候靠近漁人碼頭，八里守望哨才用望遠鏡目視，用目視來看是不是我們的漁船，我覺得都已經到了漁人碼頭，我們才用目視來判斷。到12浬，你說有光點，不知道，6浬的時候有偵測到，但是也不確定到底是屬於中國，還是屬於我們的，然後3浬的時候有加強監控，但沒有實際去攔阻，也都沒有，到了漁人碼頭了，都已經到了漁人碼頭才用望遠鏡目視，現在已經2024年，我們還用望遠鏡目視看是不是我國的漁船。"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，所以這個案子我們檢討有兩個缺失，第一個，9點44分6浬偵測到不明光點，確定是船舶的話，因為不確定，應該是要派艦艇過去辨別跟攔查登檢。"],["李委員坤城：6浬的時候沒有去攔截就是一個問題了，但我是說到12浬，已經到了我們的領海的時候，我們都還是沒辦法判斷，這個地方有沒有要加強、要精進的？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們現在的監測雷達就是12浬以內，所以12浬我們發現之後就緊盯這個目標，全程監控。"],["李委員坤城：但是沒有啊，你說光點忽明忽暗，也不知道是誰啊！都已經長驅直入到6浬了。"],["謝副署長慶欽：但是持續關注，到6浬確定的時候，這個案子在6浬抓到，所以這個系統是沒有問題。剛才講的第二個問題就是當安檢所人員10點20分發現它不是我國籍漁船的話，這個時候就馬上要通報，他繼續用監控……"],["李委員坤城：你們是直到10點25分它跟我們一個交通船擦撞之後，然後渡輪業者去報案，我們才知道這件事情。"],["謝副署長慶欽：跟委員報告，都在監控中，在10點25分……"],["李委員坤城：在監控中？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["李委員坤城：你跟我說在監控中？監控中就是沒有作為，監控就是看而已，沒有作為啊！"],["謝副署長慶欽：剛才也講了，在10點20分八里守望哨人員已經確定這艘船不是我們國籍漁船，是10點20分。剛才講的順風122交通船是10點25分報案的，所以一直在監控中，但就是沒有立即派遣……"],["李委員坤城：人員有疏失啊！"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["李委員坤城：我認為設備也要再精進。","我再問一下，我們的漢光38號演習是以臺北港淡水河口為防禦的重要據點，淡水河如果遭共軍攻陷的話，我們要怎麼去應對？這是漢光38號演習。再看漢光39號演習，39號演習也是淡水河口兩岸大規模軍演，這個是漢光38、漢光39，就是跟他進來的路徑是一樣的啊！對不對？我們38、39都已經演習過了，結果還讓一艘快艇長驅直入到了淡水河口！這應該是問國安局長，請問漢光40號演習呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分應該國防部已經有針對演習科目做相關的規劃。"],["李委員坤城：我認為漢光38、39都特別以淡水河口為主，就是說如果共軍長驅直入到淡水河口的時候要怎麼殲滅，如果沒有殲滅的話，長驅直入就到中樞，就可能到臺北了！對不對？還演練過可以把關渡大橋炸掉，都有這個設想嘛！結果一艘快艇，我是不好意思講，一艘快艇就把我們漢光38號、39號演習暴露出來的缺點在哪裡，所以我認為目前看起來雖然是個人，傷害性還不大，但是對我們國軍、對我們海巡侮辱性極強，這真的是要檢討，真的是要檢討！因為一艘快艇就把我們過去漢光38、39號……40號演習是7月份開始，可能都已假定，如果從淡水河口進來，我們該如何演練、如何預防，結果一艘快艇就把我們演習的重點突破了，我認為我們真的是要深自檢討。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們要針對這個個案凸顯的問題來做全面檢討、系統性的檢討，謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝局長，謝謝副署長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請翁曉玲委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":3.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.40596875,"end":6.257843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.46409375,"end":18.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.94784375,"end":19.504718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.57221875,"end":22.238468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.035968750000002,"end":39.096593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.64534375,"end":54.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.398468750000006,"end":51.634718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.469718750000006,"end":60.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.891593750000006,"end":54.908468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.713468750000004,"end":75.20909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.05409375,"end":68.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.20909375000001,"end":85.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.87409375,"end":87.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.05534375,"end":87.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.96659375,"end":96.23534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.23534375000001,"end":96.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start"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的一個交通船擦撞之後然後呢是杜倫業者去報案我們才知道這件事情的啊"},{"start":310.37,"end":326.338,"text":"跟委員報告都在監控中在10點25分在監控中你不要跟我講說在監控中在監控中就是沒有作為監控就是看而已沒有作為啊在10點20剛剛也講了巴黎首望哨人已經確定這艘船不是我們國際漁船是10點20"},{"start":328.559,"end":330.54,"text":"我們的漢光38號演習以台北港淡水河口是防禦的重要的據點"},{"start":348.844,"end":364.71,"text":"他說淡水河如果遭過共軍的攻陷的話我們要怎麼去應備是漢光38號演習然後看漢光39號演習39號演習呢也是以這個淡水河口兩岸大規模軍演下一張圖這個都是38漢光38漢光39就是跟他進來的路徑是一樣的啊對不對"},{"start":372.236,"end":379.5,"text":"我們38、39都已經演習過了結果你讓一艘快艇長驅直入就到了淡水河口那請問一下那這應該是問國安局長漢光40號演習勒"},{"start":383.526,"end":409.601,"text":"這部分應該國防部已經有在針對演習的科目有做相關的規劃我認為這個漢光38、39都特別以這個淡水河口就是說如果共軍長驅直入到淡水河口的時候你要是怎麼殲滅如果沒有殲滅的話長驅直入就到中蘇就可能到台北了對不對還演練過說如果關渡大橋可以把它炸掉都有這個設想嘛那結果一艘快艇"},{"start":411.379,"end":431.705,"text":"我是不好意思講一稍快點就把我們漢光38號、39號演習這個暴露出來的缺點在哪裡所以我認為說他雖然這是目前看起來是個人傷害性還不大但是對我們國軍、對我們海巡五路性極強這真的是要檢討因為一稍快點就把我們過去這個漢光38、39號、30、40號演習是7月份開始"},{"start":440.034,"end":459.171,"text":"可能都以假定就是說如果從淡水河口進來的時候我們該如何去演練如何去預防結果一燒快艇一燒快艇就把就把這個我們這個演習的這一個這個重點就把它就把它突破了我認為我們真的是要深緻檢討了對我們要針對這個個案凸顯的問題來做全面的檢討系統性的檢討謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝局長謝謝副處長謝謝主席好謝謝"},{"start":469.021,"end":471.59,"text":"接下來請汪小琳委員上台質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}