{"error":false,"id":["153859"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153859,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153859","日期":"2024-06-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-16","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":16,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-12T11:40:42+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-12T11:52:16+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:34","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8191b874656146075cc0fec08313b105ec0dd6f040307a1001a39797466756a34355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"11:40:42 - 11:52:16","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及6月13日兩天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":792,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時40分）主席、各位委員，大家好。今天討論AI的主題，臺北6月份的天空都是AI在飄，我要特別稱讚召委，這個主題選得好，用詞非常精準，「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」，這是臺灣兩個未來最重要的經濟成長動力。今天我要特別稱讚召委，真的寫得好。最重要的是，你厲害在哪裡？你把所有單位找過來，不管經濟部、國發會、數位部、教育部、國科會，AI產業發展真的要這幾個單位通力合作，同心協力才有辦法打造未來的AI產業。","今天我第一個要詢問的是誰？是台電的王總經理，你不曉得，我把你請上來。"],["主席：我們請台電王總經理。"],["陳委員超明：王總經理。"],["王總經理耀庭：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：你好。大家都很擔心缺電，我曉得你壓力很大，我認識你那麼久，我相信這幾年裡面，電力公司一定要有充足的電力，有沒有信心？"],["王總經理耀庭：有信心。"],["陳委員超明：包括AI的應用發展嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：有，這部分都在盤點。"],["陳委員超明：可能用電量很大，要規劃好。"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["陳委員超明：你不要讓郭部長下臺，要小心，要努力加油，好不好？"],["王總經理耀庭：電一定足夠。"],["陳委員超明：好，你可以回座。第一個我要請教郭部長。"],["主席：我們再請經濟部郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：部長好。我請教一個跟這個比較沒有關係的問題，但是跟生成式AI未來的發展有關係。今天所有報紙都在講聯發科，軟體都未能享受臺版晶片法案的優惠，尤其聯發科可以代表臺灣的IC設計，裡面說政府只重硬的，不重軟的，聯發科出來代表未來很多生成式的應用跟這個有關係。關於聯發科及臺灣晶片法案的問題，我相信要幫它解決，因為它是臺灣人之光，在晶片領域裡面能跟美國的幾個晶片設計公司對抗，它的成就實在不得了，你要多協助。你的看法如何？"],["郭部長智輝：這部分我們會幫忙。"],["陳委員超明：真的要加強，因為未來AI的軟體是非常重要的。你說AI這個產業臺灣可以吃50年，我們AI產業裡面軟體的排名要變成世界第二，你有沒有信心？"],["郭部長智輝：軟體的排名世界第二，現在在半導體來講……"],["陳委員超明：這是你的工作報告寫的，不是我講的，你不要忘了，你可能忘了。"],["郭部長智輝：工作報告裡面講的是IC設計世界第二。"],["陳委員超明：不是IC設計，IC設計是美國人掌握，我們不可能變成第二。報告是講AI產業生成應用裡面的軟體，你們的報告我都努力讀，你們講過的都忘了，要檢討一下，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["陳委員超明：這個可以看你的報告。我相信你講的沒有錯，AI有兩個，一個是半導體，一個是生成式AI，就是運算力非常重要，生成式AI完成以後，它的應用那一端也很複雜，不是我們想像的那麼簡單，它還要各種參數，好不好？你加強努力。","現在我要請國發會劉主委，沒有問到的可以回去，我問的話是比較輕鬆。"],["主席：請劉主委。郭部長回座。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：主委好。我請教你，在我們行政院長的施政報告裡面，他說要來創新創業，編多少錢你知道嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：知道，有1,500億。"],["陳委員超明：有多少錢？你告訴我。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們4年後要達到每年1,500億。"],["陳委員超明：啊？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：4年後要達到每年1,500億的創新創業投資。"],["陳委員超明：4年要達到1,500億。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，每一年。"],["陳委員超明：好，有認真。因為我特別看了這一段，你的創新創業，你說要創新創業雨林生態，你每一年要編1,500億，連續5年還是4年？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是到第4年後每一年有1,500億，這1,500億……"],["陳委員超明：是到第4年，還是從現在開始？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：從現在開始第4年，逐年會增加，但是……"],["陳委員超明：是每一年1,500億，還是4年1,500億？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：到了第4年的時候，每一年1,500億。"],["陳委員超明：你講得很模糊，我也聽不懂，是1年1,500億，還是4年加起來……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在1年差不多700億，我們會逐年增加，就是明年多一點，後年多一點，到第4年1年……"],["陳委員超明：沒有啦！你講的跟院長不同，你打院長的臉，你看他的施政報告，每年1,500億，5年之內創造2萬個就業機會，再讀一下好嗎？院長說的話要記住，這樣才能繼續為我們臺灣來做出貢獻，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有啦！"],["陳委員超明：這一點很重要。接著請教數位部，主委請回座，數位部是誰？"],["主席：來，請。"],["林次長宜敬：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：數位部，我現在問的可能跟國發會跟經濟部有關係。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["陳委員超明：剛剛你們講，如果要開發一個生成式的AI，剛剛我是聽到哪一個部說大概要200億臺幣。"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，如果要做大型語言模型，要開發一個生成式AI的大型語言模型的話，1,000億臺幣大概都不夠。"],["陳委員超明：你是數位部的次長，你講話就實在，所以說那個要幾百億臺幣會被人家笑死！AI主權，臺灣既然要做AI生態關鍵的地區，你曉得一個生成式AI要做到像美國的輝達、微軟、Google、臉書、OpenAI的話，最起碼多少起跳？50億美金起跳，那還是普通的，如果要做好大概要100億美金，所以我現在要告訴國發會主委及經濟部長，這個是基本的，所以要投資很大，你要作為一個關鍵核心，要帶動臺灣的經濟成長，不要那麼小氣，你去看他們，我得到的資訊是最少要50億美金，做得好要百億美金。","臺灣起碼要把錢花下去，作為一個訓練中心，我們要有國際的水準，不然你會被那幾個大公司控制到死，臺灣永遠掌握在人家的手中，也不能達成像我們經濟部長所說，不是IC軟體，你的報告裡面是講關於AI未來的軟體裡面，我們要淨輸出，我們不好意思搶美國，但是你說排名第二，我覺得你這個策略也是對的，所以各位官員，你們這幾個部，最起碼50億美金起跳，做得好要100億美金，我是告訴大家，不是我們想像得那麼容易，好不好？請回座。"],["林次長宜敬：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：今天討論到很多的AI，AI人才非常重要，我相信部長你在產業界都了解，劉主委你也都了解，美國大公司的薪水非常地高啊！我們臺灣搶不贏，我們是為人作嫁耶！說起來，臺灣人是打工耶！我們這些人才，一家大公司來，當然它的研發中心設在臺灣，我們都非常歡迎，但是人才一定要交流，人才培養非常重要。","像以前的Qualcomm，本來要賠償7億美金，後來當作是投資，它把薪水拉得高，去拉台積電，我講了一次，台積電去拉聯發科，聯發科就開始拉所有IC設計軟體產業，一定造成這樣，不要向臺灣炫耀說你很棒，跟世界每一個國家要合作，你被掏空都不曉得啊！所以臺灣的人才自己培養自己用，不要楚材晉用，你們不要有這種想法，這是個競爭的世界，我們好不容易訓練這麼多人才出來，怎麼可以隨隨便便流出去？我希望你們特別注意。","再來，要引用外來的人才，占我們所得稅大概都超過500萬以上，現在你看NVIDIA在招人，起碼都幾百萬臺幣以上，500萬的很多，你扣稅40%，所以這個地方特別注意一下，人才如何跟國際交流，多加強一下，因為這個都是要運算力的人才，非常非常地重要，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳超明委員貼心的提醒。","接下來請賴瑞隆委員做詢答。我們中午不休息，一直到今天會議結束。請發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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你可以請回座那第一個我要來請教我們郭部長我們再請經濟部郭部長"},{"start":155.97,"end":170.778,"text":"委員好部長好我請教一個這個比較沒有關心但是跟AI生存是未來發展有關心今天所有報紙都在講蓮花坑我們台版的充電法案"},{"start":171.798,"end":192.338,"text":"那軟體的話都為您享受到經騙法的一個優惠尤其聯發科是會代表台灣的IC設計那裡面說我們的政府只種硬的不種軟的那聯發科出來這個代表未來你很多生存式的應用裡面跟這個有關係喔"},{"start":193.914,"end":220.422,"text":"所以關於聯發科聯發科我們台新晶片的法案我相信要幫他解決他是台灣人之光在晶片領域裡面能跟美國幾個晶片的設計對抗的話他的成就實在不得了你要多協助你的看法如何這部分我們會來幫忙真的要加強因為你未來"},{"start":222.255,"end":247.353,"text":"這個AI的軟體是非常重要重要的你就又在講你說AI這個產業我們可以在台灣吃五十年所以我們的AI的產業裡面軟體你要排名變成世界第二你有沒有信心軟體排名世界第二我想我們現在在半導體來講的話"},{"start":250.727,"end":273.868,"text":"這是你工作報告寫的不是我講的你不要忘了你可能忘了報告委員那個是工作報告裡面講的是IC設計世界第二不是IC設計IC設計美國人掌握在我們不可能說變成第二你那時的報告是講AI產業的那個生成那個應用的AI裡面的軟體"},{"start":276.248,"end":300.621,"text":"您的籤我都拋錶頭,您講過都忘記了,要檢討一下好不好?好,這個你可以看你的報告那個我相信你講的沒有錯AI有兩個,一個半導體一個生成式的AI,就是運算力非常的重要那因為生成AI完成了以後它的應用那一端也是很複雜,不是我們想像那麼簡單它還有各種參數來的"},{"start":304.141,"end":328.101,"text":"好不好你加強努力那現在我要請我們國外委我們的劉梓瑋還沒有問到的可以請回座我們請劉梓瑋我們問的話比較輕鬆副部長回座委員好梓瑋我給你請教一下我們行政院長的一個施政報告裡面"},{"start":329.246,"end":334.015,"text":"你知道他說要來創新創業變化多少錢你知道嗎?1500億我們四年後要達到每年1500億四年後要達到每年1500億"},{"start":342.199,"end":356.554,"text":"的創新創業投資4年要達到1500億每一年對好好有認真因為我特別看了這一段你的創新創業你說要創新創業以零生態你每一年要編1500億連續5年還是4年"},{"start":365.894,"end":384.075,"text":"是到第四年後每一年有一千五百億是到第四年還是從現在開始從現在開始第四年那逐年會增加是每一年一千五百億還是四年一千五百億到了第四年的時候每一年一千五百億阿你講得很模糊阿也聽不懂"},{"start":385.136,"end":401.445,"text":"是一年1500億,還是1500億?現在一年差不多700億,我們現在逐年增加,就每年多多少年多多少年?你跟議長說的不一樣,你看他的施政報告,每年1500億,5年之內創造2萬個就業的機會"},{"start":407.298,"end":425.322,"text":"好嗎?再談一下,把議題給我記住,繼續為我們台灣來做出貢獻好不好?這一點很重要,要不要跟您請教,那個,世衛部,請回座,世衛部是誰?好,來,請"},{"start":436.857,"end":449.415,"text":"我現在可能跟你們國外會跟經濟部有關係剛剛你們講如果要開挖一個生成式的AI剛剛我是聽到哪一個部大概講說200億台幣"},{"start":453.282,"end":481.454,"text":"報告委員,如果要做那個大型語言模型的話要開發一個生成式AI大型語言模型的話一千億台幣大概都不夠你是衛部的處長,你講的就實在所以你講的那幾百億代表那個人,那個人就是AI主權台灣既然是要做成AI生態關鍵的一個地區你曉得,一個生成式的AI"},{"start":483.322,"end":510.209,"text":"要做到像美國的輝達、微軟、Google、臉書的話還有OpenAI你曉得最起碼多少起跳50億美金起跳那還是普通的如果要做好了好大概100億美金所以我現在跟國安會主委、經濟部長這個是基本的所以要投資很大你要當為一個關鍵核心要帶動台灣的經濟成長"},{"start":513.035,"end":539.708,"text":"不要那麼小氣你去看他們我得到資訊最少50億美金做得好百億美金台灣要把這個起碼錢要花下去當為你一個訓練的中心我們有國際的水準不然你會被那幾個大公司控制死掉台灣永遠掌握在人家的手中也不能達成像我們經濟部長不是IC軟體"},{"start":541.507,"end":568.055,"text":"你的報告裡面是講關於AI未來的軟體裡面我們要進出我們不好意思搶美國但是你說排名第二我覺得你這個策略也是對的所以各位官員你們這幾個部最起碼50億起跳做得好要100億美金我是告訴大家不是我們想像的那麼容易好不好"},{"start":570.914,"end":586.839,"text":"請回座今天討論到很多的AIAI的人才非常的重要現在你們真的我相信部長你在產業界都了解"},{"start":588.244,"end":611.26,"text":"那個劉子瑞你也都了解那美國大公司來那個薪水非常的高啊!咱台灣出名啊!咱是為人做家咧!講到台灣人是打工的咧!咱現在知道這大公司來當然它的研發信息設在台灣我們都非常歡迎但是人才一定要教育"},{"start":612.666,"end":639.685,"text":"這個人才培養非常的重要像以前的QICOM我們7億美金本來要賠償的單位投資來他把薪水拉的高其他臺積電我講了一次臺積電去年華科了年華科了就開始拉所有那些IC設計軟體產業一定造成這樣不要把台灣電工力很高跟世界每一個國家要合作"},{"start":640.586,"end":663.127,"text":"你被掏空都不曉得啊所謂台灣的人才自己培養、自己用不要讓主材什麼用啊經用還是經用主材你們不要有這種想法這個是降生的世界啊我們好不容易訓練這麼多的人才出來怎麼隨隨便便可以流出去啊我希望你們特別注意"},{"start":664.639,"end":690.841,"text":"再來要運用外來的人才暫時我們所得稅那大概都超過五百萬以上的現在你看Amber在招人都起碼幾百萬台幣以上了五百萬的很多阿你扣稅40%所以這個地方特別注意一下人才如何跟國際交流都加強一下因為這個都是要硬算力的人才非常非常的重要謝謝謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}