{"error":false,"id":["153860"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153860,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153860","日期":"2024-06-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-12T11:45:17+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-12T11:56:34+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:17","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8196302a9bed8e231c0182e407f268492bcf1306821ff1b0f81628ecc4a3d608f005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:45:17 - 11:56:34","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（VASP）淪為詐騙工具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":754,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時45分）謝謝主席，我們請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主委好。今天很多委員都很關心新光人壽前董事長吳東進被約談的事情，我想請問一下，這件事情的前因應該是在2022年3月10日金管會有一個新聞稿，這個新聞稿指出，吳東進前董事長在被停止董事長職務期間指示召開會議，不動產相關會議由他擔任主席的有24次，沒有出席會議但指示怎麼做的有3次，按照吳東進指示提報董事會審議該公司與吳東進投資的事業進行交易者有4案。這是2022年3月10日金管會新聞稿中揭示的。我想請問一下，這個案子是不是跟2022年3月份金管會的檢查有關係？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。過去其實每家金控跟所有的金融機構都會接受例行性的檢查，我想我們應該是在110年的時候對這個進行檢查，當時檢查出一些意見，我們當然會循我們內部駐會檢察官的管道，認為有涉犯刑法疑慮的，會移送給檢調處理。委員剛才講的就是這樣一個過程。"],["李委員坤城：所以請問一下主委或局長，當時金管會在對新光人壽進行處分之後有沒有移請檢察官進行偵辦？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個案子我們應該是去年5月移送的。"],["李委員坤城：去年5月移送？這個案子你們是在2022年3月份處分，然後去年5月移送？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["李委員坤城：那為什麼到今年6月才開始……"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，我們金管會是一個行政機關，檢調的步驟跟作為我們沒有辦法置喙。"],["李委員坤城：我知道，它是一個獨立機關，可是時機很剛好，現在不是它正要增資嗎？對不對？","我問一下局長好了，剛剛我看也有委員關心嘛！現在正式的報告已經送到金管會了嘛？"],["施局長瓊華：是。"],["李委員坤城：你也看了報告，然後有一些相關的建議提供給他們，也請他們再提供資料，對不對？"],["施局長瓊華：對，我們還在討論。"],["李委員坤城：還在討論中嘛！那是往正向發展還是怎麼樣？"],["施局長瓊華：我們當然希望能夠正向發展，尤其是對它提出的方案能不能執行的細節進行一些溝通。"],["李委員坤城：所以這兩個案子，包含新光人壽和三商美邦都是朝正面發展就對了？"],["施局長瓊華：我們會儘量跟他們溝通，希望朝正面發展。"],["李委員坤城：好，那這個會不會影響到新光人壽增資？"],["施局長瓊華：這應該是兩件事情，增資的部分，他們財業務的計畫已經來了，就是有跟我們承諾他們要增資，我們正就這個來做討論，所以這個承諾是針對財業務改善計畫，跟現在大股東的問題是分開的。"],["李委員坤城：他們增資的期限是到哪個時候？"],["施局長瓊華：合理期限就是我們要跟他們討論他們那個時程到底能不能達成。"],["李委員坤城：他們提到的期限是哪個時候？"],["施局長瓊華：有可能在下半年。"],["李委員坤城：在下半年？"],["施局長瓊華：對。"],["李委員坤城：其實本席關心的是它的資本適足率問題，本來大家已經提心吊膽，現在又出現這件事情，會不會影響到他們增資？"],["施局長瓊華：我想這是兩件事情，但是我們會密切注意是不是有受到影響。"],["李委員坤城：你說它是兩件事，但它有可能是一件事情，如果投資人心理覺得前董事長已經被依背信罪約談，可能會影響到他們投資啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。我剛才說這兩件事情，是它所涉犯的法律層次是不一樣的，我剛才也有說明過，在法律上是獨立的，但是例如市場心理受到影響，這一點我們沒辦法預期，但是我們看待增資這件事情，就是按照程序進行。"],["李委員坤城：再請教主委，今天的討論主題是虛擬貨幣，請問從107年開始，這五年多來，本席看了資料，你們有修正洗錢防制法，把虛擬通貨納入洗錢防制的低度規範管理，110年6月也有制定虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法，112年9月又公布虛擬資產平台及交易業務事業（VASP）指導原則，到113年，最近制定洗錢防制法第十五條之二第六項，帳戶帳號暫停限制功能或逕予關閉管理辦法。你們有VASP的指導原則，請問一下，這個公會是明天要成立嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，委員對法規的蒐集非常完整。第一個，沒有錯，按照我們收到的訊息，6月13日會籌組公會。"],["李委員坤城：好。大家剛才也有問過，這個公會裡面，目前完成聲明及登記的有25家，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["李委員坤城：沒有登記的有幾家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：過去是陸陸續續向我們申請，因為有些是我們拒絕以後，他們可以改善後再來申請，目前我們還在審核中的應該有15、16家。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有期限？就是希望他們都來做這個登記。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分……"],["李委員坤城：因為現在大概是60、70家吧！是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：過去曾經來申請過的有60、70家，但是有些不符，我們已經回復意見，他們改善之後還會再來申請。現在還在等我們審查意見的，大概有16家、15家左右。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有期限？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這要看他們準備的程度，因為我們洗防領聲明要做到的點，其實滿多的。"],["李委員坤城：所以成立公會的成員，基本上就是完成聲明的這25家就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。已經做完洗防聲明的，現在總共是24、25家。"],["李委員坤城：這25家裡面，有沒有一家叫做ACE王牌數位交易所？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，有。"],["李委員坤城：它的負責人之前才因為涉及詐騙洗錢……"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該是前負責人。"],["李委員坤城：對啦！他現在被抓進去了，是前負責人。請問一下，它也是公會的成員之一？"],["彭主任委員金隆：目前是。"],["李委員坤城：這樣有沒有問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，這是一個自律組織啦！我們也……"],["李委員坤城：它要制定遊戲規則耶！這家機構的前負責人涉及詐騙，結果這家虛擬貨幣交易所要參與制定遊戲規則，這樣會不會有點怪怪的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然它只是其中之一，而且涉犯的負責人現在已經更換成另外一家公司，我想這個……"],["李委員坤城：但是換湯不換藥啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想公會應該會做出明智的抉擇啦！我們在……"],["李委員坤城：問題是你們的態度啊！要看你們的態度啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：站在主管機關的立場，我們一定希望市場健全發展，公會的籌組是非常重要的機制。"],["李委員坤城：是啊！所以我們才希望它能夠發揮功能，結果卻發現裡面的王牌數位交易所涉及詐騙，他們卻要參與訂定虛擬貨幣的遊戲規則，我們覺得很奇怪，而且它也沒有受到任何的行政處罰，都沒有！"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。未來我們希望公會能夠自律，而且很多公會的自律規範也會有罰則。我剛才也說了，未來對這個部分的管理，不是只有這個公會，我們會用四道積木去堆疊，現在只是……"],["李委員坤城：對，但是我們現在制定專法，等到實施已經是明年的事情了，對不對？所以現在就是用公會的規範在處理，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我們除了洗防法，還有剛才委員條列的幾個法規以外，接下來明天就會有一個公會成立。我們趕快督導它成立公會，等於是再疊加上來，假設洗錢防制法也通過了，會再疊加一層，等到專法出來後，就會再疊加，這樣就會比較完整。"],["李委員坤城：積木要疊的好，下面的基礎要穩啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，當然。"],["李委員坤城：所以我們剛才就在質疑，如果下面的基礎不穩的話，上面怎麼堆上去？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們一定會好好的處理這件事情。"],["李委員坤城：所以本席才問你們對於涉及洗錢、詐騙的這家虛擬貨幣公司，還讓它繼續成為公會的一員，你們覺得無所謂就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是的。我想這個公會要有一個自我約束的機制，畢竟它是一個商業同業公會，我會請證期局密切督導。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！因為你們是主管單位。公會歸公會，當然公會有自律規範，但你們是主管單位啊……"],["彭主任委員金隆：它要經過我們備查。"],["李委員坤城：不能一點態度都沒有啊！到現在也沒有任何行政處分，都沒有！"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為現在公會還沒有成立，但是我們……"],["李委員坤城：不是啦！本席的意思是說，像這種涉及詐騙的虛擬資產公司，當然它的前負責人被抓走了，但是這家公司沒有受到任何處罰。完全都沒有嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是另外一個層次，可能不在金管會的主管範圍。"],["李委員坤城：那是誰的主管範圍？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為金管會是針對洗錢防制的部分，還有……"],["李委員坤城：不是啦！這家公司涉及違法，沒有任何行政部門可以對它做任何處罰，這點本席覺得滿奇怪的。這不歸金管會管嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：看它是否屬於我們列管，就像剛才我們討論的，和某家金控的狀況是一樣的。"],["李委員坤城：本席現在是問主委，它歸不歸你們管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：該我們管的，我們就會管。"],["李委員坤城：現在是不歸你們管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：根據剛才說的洗防規定，我們是VASP的主政單位，沒錯。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以本席才會問，它沒有受到任何處罰？完全沒有？這也很奇怪吧！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這我們來理解一下，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：不是理解啦！本席的意思是說，它是一家涉及詐騙的公司，現在在籌組公會，你們認為它的合法性沒有問題。本席再問，這家公司的負責人被抓走，是這個人的問題，但是這家公司沒有受到任何處罰，本席覺得滿奇怪的。都沒有嗎？"],["張局長振山：其實我們內部對這些比較異常的個人幣商都有控管案子，等我們內部審查完畢之後，也有可能會用行政處分來處分這些公司。"],["李委員坤城：早就要處理啦！聽主委這麼說，好像不歸你們管一樣。是歸你們管的啊！不然以後大家都亂搞就好啦！"],["張局長振山：剛才有說到，洗錢防制法還是有規範到啦！所以我們會依照洗錢防制法來規範它。"],["李委員坤城：是嘛！可以管的啊！怎麼會沒有辦法管呢？主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝指正。"],["李委員坤城：這是態度的問題啊！你們要管就可以管啊！對不對？你們是金管會耶！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們該管的一定會承擔，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員的質詢。接著請葛如鈞委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-17","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林楚茵","李坤城","葛如鈞","王世堅","羅明才","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案\n與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（ VASP 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我們請金管委彭主委有請彭主委"},{"start":14.725,"end":34.097,"text":"主委好今天我看也很多的委員都很關心這個新光榮獸的這個前董事長吳東進被約談的事情那我想請問一下這件事情這個前應該是在說在2022年3月10號我看金管會有一個新聞稿這個新聞稿就是認為說這個吳東進的前董事長"},{"start":38.379,"end":40.48,"text":"提報董事會審議,該公司與吳東進投資的事業進行交易者有4案"},{"start":58.666,"end":63.45,"text":"這是在2022年3月10日金管會的新聞稿這個我們市局長也在這邊那我想請問一下這個案子這個是不是跟我們2022年3月份金管會的這個"},{"start":76.117,"end":99.747,"text":"這個檢查有關係嗎?是的,我想在過去其實每家金控跟所有的金融機構都會接受例行性的檢查我想我們應該是在110年的時候對這個進行檢查這時候我們檢查出了一些的意見我們剛才會尋我們內部有駐會檢察官的管道認為說有涉犯刑法的疑慮的會移送給檢調處理委員剛才講的就是這樣一個過程"},{"start":103.729,"end":130.007,"text":"那所以請問一下主委或是局長當時候金管會有沒有針對這個進行對星光人獸處分之後有沒有依請檢察官進行偵辦這個案子應該是我們去年應該是去年5月移送去年5月移送那去年5月移送這案子是在2022年3月份你們有處分然後去年5月移送那為什麼到今年的6月才開始"},{"start":131.056,"end":151.448,"text":"跟委員報告,就是我們金管會是一個行政機關,減掉他們的步驟跟他們的作為,我們是沒有辦法去智慧,對,謝謝因為你們這個,它是一個獨立機關,可是時機很剛好,現在不是要來爭執嗎?對不對?然後呢,我問一下局長好了,這個剛才我看有委員有關心嘛"},{"start":152.088,"end":169.988,"text":"現在政治的報告已經送到金管會了嘛那你們也看了報告然後有一些相關的一些一些建議提供給他們也請他們再提供資料嘛對不對對就是我們還在討論還在討論中嘛那是往正向的發展呢還是怎麼樣"},{"start":171.307,"end":192.138,"text":"我們當然希望他能夠正向發展啦尤其是在他提出的方案能不能執行的細節進行一些溝通那所以這個兩案子那個包含新光能手跟33美邦都是朝正面發展就對了我們會盡量跟他們溝通希望朝正面發展好那這個會不會影響到他們的爭執啊"},{"start":195.515,"end":223.451,"text":"應該兩件事情增資的部分他財業務的計畫已經來了就是他有跟我們承諾他要增資那我們就這個來做討論啦所以這個承諾是針對財業務改善計畫跟現在大股東的問題他增資的期限是到哪時候啊合理期限就是我們要跟他討論他那個時程到底能不能能達成這樣子那他是提到的期限是哪時候"},{"start":225.23,"end":245.905,"text":"有可能在下半年其實我關心的是這個資本市主義的問題本來大家已經提心吊膽了現在又出現這件事情會不會影響到他們的政治我想這兩個事情是兩件事但是我們會密切注意是不是有受到影響你說它是兩件事但是它有可能是一件事情"},{"start":247.368,"end":270.902,"text":"這個投資人的心裡覺得說這個前董事長已經被依背信罪被這個約談了那可能會影響到他們投資啊對我剛才講說這兩件事情是他所涉犯的法律層次是不一樣我剛才也有說明過在法律上獨立的但是呢比如說市場上心裡面受到影響這種沒辦法預期但是我們看這件事真知我們就按照程序來進行"},{"start":273.023,"end":299.749,"text":"請教主委今天的討論主題是虛擬貨幣請問一下這5年多來從107年我看資料你們有把修正的洗錢防制法把虛擬通貨納入洗錢防制的低度規範的管理然後在110年6月也有制定虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業防制洗錢及打擊資孔的辦法然後112年9月又公布了"},{"start":301.59,"end":308.599,"text":"虛擬資產平台交易業務事業（VASP（的指導原則然後到113年最近有《洗錢防制法》"},{"start":309.828,"end":333.124,"text":"第15條之二第6項帳號暫停限制功能或禁與關閉的管理辦法然後呢你們也這個有一個VASP的指導原則那請問一下這個工會是明天要成立嗎是的那委員剛剛對那個法規收集非常的完整就是說第一個沒有錯就按照我們的收到的訊息工會是在6月13號會會來籌組工會好那這個"},{"start":339.073,"end":351.232,"text":"我看大家剛剛有問過這公會裡面這個先講目前完成這個聲明的登記的有25家嘛 對不對是的然後呢那沒有登記的有幾家"},{"start":352.271,"end":368.892,"text":"現在過去陸陸續續跟我們申請因為它其實上有些是我們把它拒絕以後它當然可以改善再來我們現在大概是目前我們還在審核中應該十幾家應該四五六家有沒有一個期限就是說我們希望說他們做來做這一個登記"},{"start":371.135,"end":392.47,"text":"現在大概六七十家吧過去曾經來申請過六七十家但是有些不服我們今天回復意見他改善就會還會再過來現在還在等的等我們審查意見大概有16家15家左右那有沒有一個期限這個要看他們準備的程度因為其實我們的洗房林聲明他要做到的點其實蠻多的那所以說這個成立工會"},{"start":393.07,"end":407.66,"text":"基本上就是有這個聲明的這25家就對了是的 就是我們已經做完洗房聲明的總共現在大概是24、5家那這25家裡面有一家叫做這個S王牌數位交易所 有沒有有"},{"start":408.24,"end":426.262,"text":"那他的負責人齁那之前齁才因為這個涉及詐騙洗錢齁對應該是前負責人對啦因為他現在被抓進去了嘛是前負責人嘛那我問一下那所以他也是工會成員之一先生目前是那這樣有沒有問題啊呃當然這是個自律組織啦那我們我們還要自立遊戲規則欸"},{"start":427.763,"end":453.201,"text":"那結果他的前負責人這家機構他的前負責人涉及詐騙那結果這一家的交易所虛擬貨幣交易所要來制定這個遊戲規則這樣會不會有點怪怪的當然他只是其中之一而且那個前涉犯的負責人已經現在更換成另外一家公司我想不是啊那這個換湯不換藥啊這個的話我想工會他們應該會做出明智的抉擇啦我們在那你的態度啊要是看你的態度啊"},{"start":453.641,"end":474.526,"text":"站在主管機關我們一定希望這個市場健全發展工會的籌組是非常重要的機制是啊所以我們才希望說它能夠發揮功能那結果這個發現說裡面這個王牌數位這個交易所這個涉及詐騙那結果它要訂立這個虛擬貨幣的這個遊戲規則我們是覺得很奇怪啊然後它也沒有任何的沒有任何的行政處罰都沒有"},{"start":475.426,"end":490.264,"text":"未來我們希望他工會因為很多的工會自律規範他們也會有罰則只是我剛才講說未來對這個管理不是只有這個工會因為我剛才講我們會用四道積木的去堆疊我們三法是到明年的事情了啊"},{"start":490.905,"end":507.213,"text":"所以現在就是用工會的規範在做處理現在我們除了《洗錢防制法》剛才委員所條列的那幾個法規以外接下來明天就會有一個工會成立我們就趕快督導他成立工會就等於說再疊加上來假設我們《洗錢防制法》也通過的話"},{"start":508.514,"end":522.566,"text":"會再疊加一層當我們專法出來就會疊加一層這個基木要疊得好你下面基礎要穩所以我們剛就在質疑說你這個下面基礎不穩的話你上面怎麼堆上去啊我們一定是會好好的來處理所以我才問說你這個你對於這個有涉及這個洗錢的詐騙的這個虛擬貨幣的公司你還讓他繼續成為工會的議員你也覺得無所謂就對了"},{"start":529.212,"end":556.21,"text":"不是,我想這個工會任何應該他們要有一個自我約束的機制畢竟它是一個商業同業工會那我會請我們的那個政績局密切的督導對啊,你們是主管單位啊工會是歸工會當然工會有自律的規範但是你們是主管單位啊不能說這個一點態度都沒有啊到現在也沒有任何的行政處分,都沒有現在的部分我們現在因為工會還沒成立,但是呢不是啊,我的意思是說像這種有涉及到詐騙的這個虛擬資產的公司"},{"start":560.153,"end":586.394,"text":"當然他前副職人被抓走了但是這家公司沒有任何的處罰?完全都沒有嗎?這是我想說另外一個層次可能不在我們金管會的主管範圍那是誰的主管範圍?如果說涉犯違法的話應該是因為金管會是對這個洗錢防制的部分還就是做一個不是啊,那所以說這家公司他有涉及違法了然後沒有任何的一個行政部門可以對他做任何的處罰"},{"start":588.483,"end":611.976,"text":"這規矩蠻奇怪的,這不規矩管會管嗎?我們就看他所列管,就跟剛剛我們討論剛才比如說某家的經貨概念是一樣現在不規你管?現在我們根據剛才那個洗房的規定,我們對這個VASP是一個主政單位對啊,所以我在問說他沒有任何的處罰?完全沒有?"},{"start":613.036,"end":635.383,"text":"這很奇怪吧這我們來理解一下這我們會來理解啦不是不是理解啦我的意思是說他這是一個詐騙的公司然後他籌組工會那你也認為說他的合法性沒有問題那我再問說那你這家公司負責人是被抓走是他這個人的問題啊但是這家公司沒有任何的處罰我也覺得蠻奇怪的啊都沒有嗎"},{"start":640.76,"end":658.736,"text":"因為我們內部其實有對這些個人弊傷比較異常的那其實我們有控管案子那等我們內部審查完畢之後也有可能他我們會用到我們的行政處分來處分這些共識早就要處理了啊我先聽主委講說這個好像不歸你管一樣是歸你管的啊"},{"start":659.622,"end":659.862,"text":"主席主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}