{"error":false,"id":["153869"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153869,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153869","日期":"2024-06-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-26","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":26,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-12T12:00:37+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-12T12:11:51+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:14","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81953efa27fe1990e6159a48fe1a1d57c38f1306821ff1b0f811b1b31f5abdde3215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:00:37 - 12:11:51","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":899,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時）謝謝主席，是不是麻煩有請通傳會副主委以及中華電信的副總經理？"],["主席：請通傳會副主委及中華電信。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。前陣子發生了駭人聽聞的事情，大規模，不僅僅是個資，也許是通訊資料，竟然被民進黨、我們執政黨的高層掌握。大家都在追問一件事情，這位民進黨的高層到底是從哪裡取得這些資料？針對這件事情，NCC目前了解的進度是什麼，可不可以請副主委說明一下？因為這些涉及電信業者掌握到的個人資料，基本上的行政檢查及保護是屬於NCC主管，沒有錯吧？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：委員好。我們按照個資法第二十二條，在113年5月30日請三大電信業者到本會進行行政檢查、行政調查，業者向我們陳述的意見都是無任何私人企業、政府機關或特定政黨人士向該公司接洽有關於青鳥行動的人流資訊。昨天我們再請三大電信業者來開會，就去識別化這件事情，針對去識別化認證標準的程序要趕快導入，先跟委員這樣報告。"],["黃委員國昌：結論啊！以主管機關的立場來講，到目前還是沒有掌握這位民進黨高層是怎麼取得這些資訊，對不對？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，三大電信業者都表示沒有與特定政黨人士接觸、也沒有提供青鳥行動相關的人流輪廓資訊。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們現在處理的只有三個電信業者嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：未來我們也會對一定規模的電信事業再去了解，其實早上也有委員提到這件事情，譬如早上有委員提到的是方電訊，我們也會去調查了解。"],["黃委員國昌：今天早上看了徐巧芯委員的質詢，我真的是覺得匪夷所思啊！按照徐委員質詢及掌握到吹哨者提供的內容，5月27日下午這位民進黨的高層之所以可以在節目上大放厥詞，原來是5月27日上午在民進黨中央黨部就有開會，他是聽到有人報告才得到這個資訊，所以這個清查的範圍恐怕要擴大囉！不是只有王義川個人喔！如果他是坐在那邊聽其他民進黨的一級主管報告，拿著是方電訊給他們的資料在那邊進行報告，大家全部都有聽到。現在這個風波是越來越大，要查的可能不是只有王義川個人，而是所有參與那個會議的人，是不是都聽到這些資訊了？由誰報告的？這個報告的內容從哪裡來的？是不是如同徐委員收到的檢舉一樣，由是方電訊提供的？這些事情全部都要徹查到底啊！NCC會不會去查？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，剛剛我已經講過，我們會對一定規模的電信事業都進行調查了解。"],["黃委員國昌：相關的當事人會不會進行行政調查？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，我們會針對電信事業的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們具體來看嘛！中華電信從民進黨執政之後一片綠油油啊！包括了大數據中心的總監李誠偉、包括了董事長郭水義、還有是方電訊的董事長吳彥宏，吳彥宏是民進黨新潮流的大將啊！非常會酬庸啊！直接酬庸到是方電訊去擔任董事長。我請教一下中華電信，是方電訊的業務範圍有包括輿情監控嗎？來，請教？"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員，是方電訊的主要業務還是IDC與上網業務。"],["黃委員國昌：它有做輿情監控的業務嗎？你們是最大的股東啊！董事長也是你們任命的啊！你應該很清楚啊！是方電訊有幹這種事情嗎？"],["林副總經理文智：就是方電訊揭露的服務項目中並沒有看到這個部分，但是如同我說明的，因為是方電訊是獨立的公司，針對相關的事項，中華電信有些部分是沒有辦法代表它提出說明。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你說的沒有錯。在它揭露公開的資訊項目裡面都沒有做什麼、都沒有做輿情監控，但我看了覺得很奇怪，它對於特定的對象、特定的關係是會去做輿情監控分析的，為什麼我會這樣講？看一下，是方電訊在2018年4月取得臺南市政府民政局107年網路輿情監測分析服務案，提供服務的對象是臺南市政府，而當時臺南市政府將這個標案發包出去的人是誰？陳宗彥啊！陳宗彥啊！另外一個民進黨新潮流的大將啊！陳宗彥要做的網路輿情分析，竟然由是方電訊幫他做，這個並不在它公司原本的業務範圍內。大家看了之後都很擔心，是方電訊手上掌握了那麼多data、那麼多主機、那麼多儲存的資料，它拿什麼資料去做網路輿情監測的分析？而且是方電訊的吳彥宏與陳宗彥都是民進黨同一個派系，民進黨特別的派系拿公帑要是方電訊幫他們去做網路監測分析。接下來的2021年，針對疫調指揮中心所做的那套系統，主席也是陳宗彥、參與的也有中華電信。我問一下中華電信，這個系統現在是不是已經百分之百徹底移除了？"],["林副總經理文智：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你們在移除的過程中，由誰負責監督這個系統的移除？"],["林副總經理文智：相關的事項，包括主管機關都會做相關的監督與查證，確保我們確實移除了。"],["黃委員國昌：來，請NCC。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，分為二個部分，這個系統已經移除，第二個，裡面的個資也移除，我們的平台處有去查核。"],["黃委員國昌：你們查核的對象是誰？"],["黃副處長天陽：報告委員，我們在確定指揮中心解編之後，立即在同一月的月底前就完成查核，至於查核的對象，因為當時參與疫調平台的是五家行動電信事業，我們都有去他們的機房確認已經刪除，也請他們留下確定刪除的紀錄。"],["黃委員國昌：這套系統，除了五大電信業者之外，還有沒有人有管道可以取得？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，因為電信事業是一個封閉的網路，沒有其他的業者可以獲得。"],["黃委員國昌：所以確定這個已經移除了嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：已經移除，而且個資都已經刪除。"],["黃委員國昌：如果有人手上還有這套系統，是不是就一定是違法的？是嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：委員講的正確。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，電信事業是一個封閉的系統，這套系統只有行動通信網路業者才會有，但是這套系統已經移除，另外個資也已經都移除了。"],["黃委員國昌：NCC有沒有對是方電訊辦理過個資行政檢查？從過去到現在？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：目前沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：從過去到現在都沒有？它是不是應該要接受行政檢查的對象？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，我們會即刻去進行。"],["黃委員國昌：分二個部分，第一個，過去它手上掌有這些個資，你們有沒有辦過行政檢查？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，按照個資法第二十二條，針對有一定規模以上的電信事業，我們才會去檢查。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是方電訊的規模還不算大就對了？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：所謂的一定規模，譬如它擁有的寬頻用戶有多少、擁有的電信用戶有多少。雖然是方電訊的最主要業務是IDC，但是今天徐委員已經很明確的點出來，我們會即刻去對這樣子的……"],["黃委員國昌：我希望你們接下來要做的行政檢查，請你先看一下個資法第二十二條，你們做行政檢查的手段，個資法給你們很多授權嘛！"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：對。"],["黃委員國昌：你應該看的到吧？可以沒入可為證據的個人資料或檔案、可以扣留或複製，並不是把他叫來問一問，然後他說沒有就沒有，現場該去做的查核就要去做查核，因為這件事情非同小可、這件事情非同小可！所有參與那個會議的人，我希望今天承辦案件的檢察官……在立法院裡所做的質詢全部都是公開資訊，我希望承辦案件的檢察官不要高高舉起輕輕放下，把人叫來問一問，說沒事就沒事。NCC也是一樣，既然目前的個資法賦予你們行政檢查的權限，你們就要確實去檢查。這個涉及到大規模的國家、甚至是政黨藉由非法取得的資料對人民進行的監控，一定要徹查到底啊！NCC可不可以本於獨立機關的權責，這件事情要查清楚，給大家一個交代，可以嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：會，謝謝委員的指導。"],["黃委員國昌：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝。這個受到很大的關注，我們請相關單位，包括NCC及中華電信都要盡速處理，謝謝。","請吳宗憲委員、吳宗憲委員、吳宗憲委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員不在。","接下來請張啓楷委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":3.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.755968750000001,"end":5.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.05971875,"end":8.856593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.974718750000001,"end":9.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.919718750000001,"end":12.130343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.084093750000001,"end":15.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.15471875,"end":18.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.99409375,"end":23.824718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.60096875,"end":25.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.54159375,"end":29.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.08534375,"end":34.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.502218750000004,"end":37.611593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.98284375,"end":42.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.45034375,"end":44.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.23909375,"end":5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對不對電信跟委員報告所有電信三個電信業者的報告是說他們沒有跟特定的政黨人士有接觸也沒有提供青鳥行動的相關的人流輪廓資訊所以你們現在處理的只有三個電信業者嗎"},{"start":135.741,"end":160.429,"text":"未來我們會對一定規模的電信事業也會再去了解因為早上有委員提到這件事情像早上委員提到的四方電信我們也會去調查了解我今天早上看徐曉欣委員的質詢我看了真的是匪夷所思按照徐委員他質詢跟掌握到吹哨者所提供的內容"},{"start":161.676,"end":184.645,"text":"5月17號下午這位民進黨的高層之所以可以在節目上面大放厥詞啊原來是5月27號上午在民進黨中央黨部就有開會啊他是聽有人報告才得到這個資訊啊那這個清查的範圍恐怕要擴大囉不是只有王逸川個人喔"},{"start":186.414,"end":213.194,"text":"因為他是坐在那邊聽別的民進黨的一級主管在那邊報告拿著四方電訊給他們的資料在那邊進行報告大家全部都有聽到現在這個風波是越來越大要查的可能不是只有王玉川個人啊而是所有參與那個會議的人是不是都聽到了這些資訊了由誰報告的"},{"start":217.51,"end":246.53,"text":"這個報告的內容從哪裡來的是不是如同徐委員所收到的檢舉一樣是從四方電訊所提供的這些事情全部都要徹查到底啊NCC會不會去查報委員我剛才已經有講過我們會對一定規模的電信事業都會去調查了解相關的當事人會不會進行行政調查報委員我們會對電信事業的部分好來我們具體的來看嘛"},{"start":247.679,"end":272.534,"text":"中華電信從民進黨執政了以後一片綠油油阿包括了大數據中心的總監李承偉包括了董事長郭水義還有四方電訊的董事長吳彥宏吳彥宏是民進黨新潮流的大將阿非常會酬庸阿直接酬庸到四方電訊裡面阿去當董事長"},{"start":276.793,"end":302.392,"text":"來我請教一下中華電信四方電信他們的業務範圍有包括語情監控嗎來請教報告委員就了解四方電信的主要業務還是IDC跟那個上網業務對阿他有做語情監控的業務嗎你們是最大的股東阿董事長是你們任命的阿你應該很清楚阿四方電信有在幹這種事情嗎"},{"start":303.942,"end":303.962,"text":"對﹖好"},{"start":321.94,"end":349.71,"text":"你說得沒有錯他接到公開的資訊項目裡面都沒有做什麼都沒有在做語情監控但我看得很奇怪他對於特定的對象、特定的關係是會去做語情監控分析的我為什麼這樣講?來看一下世芳電訊2018年4月的時候取得台南市政府民政局107年網路語情監測分析服務案"},{"start":351.158,"end":370.95,"text":"提供服務的對象是台南市政府台南市政府那時候的發包這個標案出去的人是誰陳宗彥陳宗彥另外一個民進黨新潮流的大將陳宗彥要做的網路語情分析結果四方電訊幫他做"},{"start":373.121,"end":396.799,"text":"這不在他們公司本來的業務範圍內那大家看了會很擔心啊四方電訊手上掌握那麼多data那麼多主機那麼多儲存的資料他拿什麼資料啊去做這個網路語情監測的分析而且四方電訊的吳彥宏跟這個陳忠彥都是民進黨同一個派系的"},{"start":401.752,"end":424.602,"text":"民進黨特別的派系拿公帑要釋放電訊幫他們去做網路監測分析接下來2021年我們針對疫調指揮中心所做的那套系統主席也是陳宗彥"},{"start":426.462,"end":440.337,"text":"參與的也有中華電信來 我問一下中華電信這個系統現在是不是已經百分之百徹底移除了是好 你們在移除的過程當中由誰負責監督這個系統的移除"},{"start":441.278,"end":461.695,"text":"相關的事項包括主管機關都會做相關的監督跟查證確保我們確實移除報告委員這個分做兩個部分這個系統它已經移除第二個裡面的個資也移除我們的平台處有去查核好你們查核的對象是誰"},{"start":463.99,"end":489.556,"text":"報告委員我們在那個確定那個指揮中心解編以後我們就立即在同一月的月底前就完成查核那我們查核對象是五那個因為參與這個疫調平台是五大當時是五家電信行動電信事業我們都有到他們的就是機房跟確保他們刪除而且都有請他們留下Log記錄然後確定刪除的記錄這套系統"},{"start":492.077,"end":515.888,"text":"除了五大電信業者以外,還有沒有人有管道可以取得?報告委員,這個系統是因為電信事業它是一個封閉的網路沒有其他的業者可以獲得所以確定這個已經移除了嗎?已經移除如果有人手上還有這套系統的話,是不是一定是違法的?"},{"start":517.449,"end":519.35,"text":"NCC有沒有對四方電訊辦理過各自行政檢查?從過去到現在?"},{"start":542.256,"end":547.281,"text":"從過去到現在都沒有?他是不是應該要接受行政檢查的對象?分兩個部分嘛 第一個"},{"start":553.05,"end":566.133,"text":"過去他手上藏有這些個資：你們有沒有辦過行政檢查嗎?包委員這個部分就是我們按照個資法22條就是有一定規模以上的電信事業才會去檢查所以四方電信規模還不夠大就對了因為一定規模比如說他擁有的寬頻的用戶有多少"},{"start":572.435,"end":574.316,"text":"我希望齁你們接下來所做的行政檢查來你看一下各自法22條"},{"start":592.91,"end":609.362,"text":"你們做行政檢查的手段各支法給你們很多授權嘛對你應該看得到吧可以去沒入可違證據的個人資料或檔案嘛可以扣留或複製嘛那不是把他叫來問一問他說沒有就說沒有嘛"},{"start":611.003,"end":627.011,"text":"現場該去做的查核就要去做查核嘛因為這件事情非同小可啊這件事情非同小可啊所有參與那個會議的人我希望啊今天承辦案件的檢察官在立法院裡面所做的質詢全部都是公開資訊啊"},{"start":628.462,"end":645.135,"text":"我希望承辦案件的檢察官不要高高舉起輕輕放下人叫來問一問說沒事就沒事NCC也是一樣你們既然在目前各執法裡面賦予你們這樣檢查的權限就要切實去檢查"},{"start":646.036,"end":672.171,"text":"這涉及到大規模國家甚至政黨藉由非法取得的資料對人民所進行的監控一定要徹查到底啊NCC可不可以本於獨立機關的權責這件事情要查清楚啊給大家一個交代可以嗎會 謝委員的指導好 謝謝這個受到很大的關注我們請相關單位NCC、中華電信都可以盡速處理謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}