{"error":false,"id":["153882"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153882,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153882","日期":"2024-06-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-26","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":26,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-12T12:22:24+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-12T12:33:06+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:42","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8193b7c2d7ad3b20f4659a48fe1a1d57c38f1306821ff1b0f810c7a3ba716382fef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:22:24 - 12:33:06","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1001,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時22分）主席，有請國安局、海委會、海巡署、法務部、NCC及中華電信。"],["主席：請以上單位就備詢台。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，委員好。"],["羅委員智強：局長，我最近有一個感慨，突然發現我們的國安戰略叫做對內天眼、對外無眼，局長應該是不認同這個國安戰略吧！對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，委員說明一下。"],["羅委員智強：好，說明一下。對外就是無眼啦！無眼之國啦！海巡竟然發生以前的陸艇艇長可以開著快艇長驅直入，猶如不設防一樣的衝到了我們的淡水碼頭，請問我們國安、國防及海巡的眼睛長在哪裡啊？"],["蔡局長明彥：關於這個部分，剛剛海巡已經說明過，事實上，該艘快艇……"],["羅委員智強：我講一個結果，衝上來了沒有？進來了沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：在6浬就已經掌控他了。"],["羅委員智強：掌控他？更嚴重！眼睜睜的看著他進來。我問局長，馬政府的時候中共軍機有越過海峽中線嗎？有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，時空環境不太一樣。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝啦！你們無能啦！時空環境不一樣！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，時空環境不一樣。"],["羅委員智強：有逼近24浬鄰接區嗎？有沒有？也是時空環境不一樣，我幫你講啦！有到12浬臨海線嗎？有沒有？時空環境不一樣？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，而且中共軍事擴張也越來越激烈。"],["羅委員智強：現在非常厲害，今天在我們國安系統及海巡眼皮底下，直接就衝到岸防來了、到岸上來了！海巡署，我到現在還搞不清楚，你們的說法可不可以一致一點啊？3種版本，海巡署在記者會上說6浬發現陸艇未即時攔截登檢，但岸巡人員快速掌握、嚴陣以待，快艇靠岸時逮人。海巡署北部分署的新聞稿，淡水渡船碼頭交通船擦撞，業者報案，安檢所前往察看後逮人。阮姓嫌犯的說法是他把快艇靠岸之後，自己走到岸上，請路過民眾打電話報案。署長，光你們自己的單位就有二個不一樣的版本，到底哪一個版本是真的？A、B、C哪一個是真的？"],["謝副署長慶欽：跟委員報告，我們北部分署跟海巡署發布的版本是一致的，只不過是民眾在10點54分報案，第一次有……"],["羅委員智強：對啦！現行犯的說法是錯的？"],["謝副署長慶欽：第二次我們沒有寫上去。跟委員報告，時間是這樣，我們9點44分雷達監控到之後，第一時間要通報艦艇攔截，他沒有通報；接下來跟委員報告，10點20分我們守望哨就發現……"],["羅委員智強：有沒有業者報案？"],["謝副署長慶欽：業者報案是10點54分。"],["羅委員智強：有嘛！"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們在10點20分接到……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！我告訴你，基本上我也很欣賞你們啦！反正已經全盤掌握就放人上岸，就這樣，就這麼簡單。"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，這個是我們疏失。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，今天不要說海巡，前陣子發生無人機到哨所上面去丟放傳單，結果說因為是岡哨不是營區，這也是我們政府的說法。剛剛張啓楷說不要再對內找敵人，我們國安戰略是對外放敵人啦，今天喊了這麼多的國防、國安措施，對外就是「無能」兩個字來形容。但是對內，我非常欣賞我們的國安戰略，我就要問一下中華電信，中華電信，請問一下，是方今天到底掌握了什麼資料，它的伺服器裡面有民眾什麼樣的資料？"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員報告，如同我之前的說明，是方它本身是……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，它可以拿去做輿情監控，它的資料來源是哪裡？中華電信嘛！"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員，中華電信的資料一定是留在中華電信公司。"],["羅委員智強：一定留在中華電信公司啊？"],["林副總經理文智：是。"],["羅委員智強：請國安局長，我們今天看到從王義川開始，他能夠精確的掌握資料，雖然中華電信否認，是方竟然也否認，可是昭昭然的事實就是有一筆資料可以拿去做分析，分析人流、分析不同場域的政黨傾向重疊度。請問這樣的科偵工具，我不知道我們國安局有沒有掌握？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這部分檢方已經在查辦了，我想還是尊重司法單位……"],["羅委員智強：好，我要問一下，依照現行通保法規定，避免國家安全遭受危害，國安局、移民署可以對幫助境外敵對勢力進行通訊偵查，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["羅委員智強：沈伯洋說，中共可能威脅在中國做生意或妻小在中國的人，希望這些人在開戰時進行一些任務，他認為高風險群有幾十萬人，所以要管好，然後主張對這第五縱隊的高風險群控管、偵防，你認同嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分我們要看司法警察機關，只要他們有相關的證據，跟國安局提請監察……"],["羅委員智強：你有沒有收到高層指示來監控這些高風險群？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們剛剛在報告當中都說明了，要進行相關監察的話，必須遵行相關的法律和行政程序。"],["羅委員智強：我們現在針對高風險群的監控是什麼樣的作為？我們對陸生、陸配、台商會不會視為高風險群進行偵防？現在有沒有視為高風險群進行偵防？會不會將其特別區隔出來視為高風險群？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個部分我剛剛一直在強調的是，要由司法警察機關，再由偵辦的國安單位在過程當中……"],["羅委員智強：我不是講個案喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：假如有需要的話再報請國安局進行……"],["羅委員智強：局長，停！我不是講個案喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["羅委員智強：我講的是有沒有把這群人區隔。"],["蔡局長明彥：我在講的是法律程序，我講的是法律程序。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，有沒有？有就有、沒有就沒有，當然今天抓到蔡某某通匪、通敵，我當然個案就要查你啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，所以我們看的是案子。"],["羅委員智強：不查就失職啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，所以我們在審核過程看的是案子。"],["羅委員智強：可是你有沒有針對36萬名陸配列為高風險群特別監控，有沒有？目前有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：假如委員提到了這些身分的民眾，他有涉入或是有涉及到中共滲透的話，我們才會啟動偵辦。"],["羅委員智強：有沒有普遍性，36萬有沒有？你到現在連這個問題都不敢回答。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，我們就依法偵辦。"],["羅委員智強：那我就嚴重懷疑你有。"],["蔡局長明彥：依法偵辦。"],["羅委員智強：你就是有監控36萬。"],["蔡局長明彥：依法偵辦。"],["羅委員智強：我這樣子講你，你接受嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：依法偵辦。"],["羅委員智強：你有沒有監控36萬？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們沒有監控那麼多人，沒有36萬。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你！直接回答就好了。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們監控的是依照案情需要……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你為什麼不行，因為這叫做無區別……"],["蔡局長明彥：法律本來就……"],["羅委員智強：對，就法律不許可嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：是，我跟委員講，因為貴院通過的通保法，強調的一種概念是在於最小侵害的原則，這是我們依法……"],["羅委員智強：廢話，我也知道，我還需要你解釋？"],["蔡局長明彥：是這樣。"],["羅委員智強：我講的就是今天有沒有通案？你已經告訴我答案就好啦！我要這個答案，你沒有啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：對啊！依照案情來審核。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：依照案情審核，依法行政！"],["羅委員智強：但你可以停下，我沒有要問你問題了。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：那很簡單，沈伯洋就是廢話！他要求針對高風險群，就是針對群別來進行監控，我謝謝你今天蔡明彥說沒有啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：我們尊重委員的討論。"],["羅委員智強：接下來我要講，自由時報說，這也是沈伯洋講的，如果沒有針對這些高風險群進行控管、人別控管，臺灣就會完蛋！完蛋了沒？你們也沒有針對高風險群進行群別的控管啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：依照證據，偵辦相關案件依照相關的法律條件來進行偵辦。"],["羅委員智強：你不要問A答B。"],["蔡局長明彥：事實上就是這樣，事實上就是這樣，每個案子……"],["羅委員智強：那你要推翻你前面說沒有針對群別做所謂的政治偵防嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們不會針對群別。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：我們依照的是案情。"],["羅委員智強：那臺灣完蛋了沒？"],["蔡局長明彥：依照案情。"],["羅委員智強：臺灣完蛋了沒？"],["蔡局長明彥：尊重委員相關的討論。"],["羅委員智強：臺灣完蛋了沒嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：這是言論自由，我們尊重。"],["羅委員智強：臺灣完蛋了沒？臺灣完蛋了沒？答不出來！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，就尊重相關討論。"],["羅委員智強：你不敢得罪沈伯洋，這麼簡單！"],["蔡局長明彥：尊重相關討論。"],["羅委員智強：接下來我要講，事實上我們會發現，我們的科技偵查法裡面也有規範，為確保國家安全，維護社會秩序，制定本法。我想請問局長，GPS定位追蹤、M化汽車定位、使用熱顯像儀等科技偵查手段，是不是未來就會使用在國安方面偵防，還是現在已經在使用中？"],["蔡局長明彥：就相關的偵防手段來講，我們並不是偵查單位，必須要看相關的……"],["羅委員智強：你會不會用？"],["蔡局長明彥：有司法警察權的單位來進行。"],["羅委員智強：你會不會用？以後會不會用？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們沒有司法警察權、我們沒有司法警察權。"],["羅委員智強：沒有用嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：國安局沒有。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝你。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：在通訊監察方面，針對通保法，監聽結束之後，換言之，我們國安局相關的國家安全單位都不用做監聽就對了？"],["蔡局長明彥：委員指的是……"],["羅委員智強：監聽，我講通保法的監聽。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們剛剛……"],["羅委員智強：有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們剛剛講到的是，只要司法警察機關有這個需要，送到國安局來審查通訊偵查的必要性的話，我們進行審查，再送請高等法院法官同意，我們來執行。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！沒錯啊！所以你們也會執行監聽嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們不是執行單位。"],["羅委員智強：只是要有一個法律程序嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：委員，國安局是審核機關，我們不是執行監聽的機關。"],["羅委員智強：好，我要問一下，就算你是審核機關。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["羅委員智強：相關為執行國安業務進行的監聽，事後會不會通知當事人？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個要看案情狀況，依照法律規定……"],["羅委員智強：案情？法律規定要通知啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，要看案情的狀況，三個月評估一次，法律規定是這樣子。"],["羅委員智強：法律規定事後要通知，這法律規定的。"],["蔡局長明彥：要由法院來通知。"],["羅委員智強：法律你還是要理解，釐清一下。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，釐清了。委員，也請看清楚法律，這要由法院在結案之後針對案情進行通知。"],["羅委員智強：廢話，當然是結案之後啊！偵辦中不會通知，我也知道啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：是，沒有錯，法律是這樣寫。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["羅委員智強：那你前面跟我拗半天是在拗什麼嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：我沒有啊！就是遵照法律程序。"],["羅委員智強：好啦！最後一件事情，我要跟你講，今天授予國安單位為我們國家做一些安全偵查是有必要的，我支持啊！但是不能濫用是最基本的原則。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有濫用。"],["羅委員智強：所以我反對的是什麼？對外無眼，對內天眼！搞這種事情，你有本事去政治偵防臺灣人民的話，先把這些陸艇、陸艦直衝淡水碼頭的事情管好啦！謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們依法行政，也會加強相關的國安體制，因應相關的問題，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請邱志偉委員、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","請鄭天財、鄭天財、鄭天財委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","已登記質詢委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有林憶君委員、楊瓊瓔委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。委員口頭質詢未及答復部分，或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供，委員另約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":3.0515937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.496593750000002,"end":19.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.70721875,"end":22.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.57596875,"end":23.453468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.930343750000002,"end":26.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.33909375,"end":28.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.12346875,"end":30.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.852843750000005,"end":34.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.962218750000005,"end":38.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.13034375,"end":41.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.94846875,"end":42.555968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.92721875,"end":46.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.892843750000004,"end":49.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.166593750000004,"end":51.533468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.32659375,"end":53.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.72284375,"end":55.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.157218750000006,"end":59.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.00471875,"end":67.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.56471875,"end":68.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.57721875,"end":72.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":72.77909375,"end":77.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.69846875,"end":77.48721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":77.48721875000001,"end":77.50409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.50409375000001,"end":78.38159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":78.38159375000001,"end":78.58409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.58409375000001,"end":78.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":78.65159375,"end":80.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.98471875,"end":81.90846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.93784375,"end":84.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.11471875000001,"end":85.92471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.93721875,"end":96.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":95.40846875000001,"end":95.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.69096875000001,"end":102.41159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.91784375,"end":105.55034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.82034375,"end":107.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":106.98471875000001,"end":109.54971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.77784375,"end":109.58346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.52846875,"end":114.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.47284375000001,"end":115.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.70471875000001,"end":118.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.98284375,"end":119.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.67034375,"end":126.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.99846875000001,"end":132.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.63471875000002,"end":149.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.62784375,"end":152.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.73284375,"end":160.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.17034375,"end":161.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.96346875,"end":166.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.41846875000002,"end":168.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.48971875,"end":173.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.01221875000002,"end":177.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.62784375,"end":178.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.75409375,"end":192.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.14034375,"end":192.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.09784375,"end":198.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.75159375,"end":195.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.77221875,"end":201.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.41284375,"end":209.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.54721875,"end":209.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.92221875,"end":214.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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說明一下對外就是無眼啦無眼之國啦"},{"start":54.79,"end":81.227,"text":"海巡發生進來發生露艇以前的艇長可以開著快艇長驅直路猶如不設防一樣衝到了我們淡水碼頭請問我們的國安以及我們的國防跟海巡的眼睛長在哪裡這部分應該海巡剛有說明到了事實上該稍微我講一個結果衝上來了沒有進來了沒有在六海裡就掌控他了掌控他更嚴重"},{"start":83.001,"end":108.467,"text":"眼睜睜看著他進來我問局長馬政府的時候中共軍機有越過海峽中線嗎有沒有對時空環境不太一樣謝謝啦你們無能啦時空環境不一樣有時空環境不一樣來有越過有逼近24海浬林街區嗎有沒有也時空環境不一樣我幫你講啦有到12海浬林海線嗎有沒有時空環境不一樣對而且中共軍機現在非常厲害啦"},{"start":110.879,"end":119.774,"text":"現在在你今天我們國安系統海巡眼皮底下直接就衝到暗房來啦到暗上來啦"},{"start":120.711,"end":148.705,"text":"而且報告局長我們請海巡署一下我到現在搞不清楚海巡署你的說法可不可以一致一點三種版本海巡署記者會說六里發現陸艇為及時攔截燈檢但暗巡人員快速掌握延鎮以待快艇靠岸時逮人然後呢海巡署北部分署新聞稿是淡水渡船碼頭交通船擦撞業者報案"},{"start":149.685,"end":168.288,"text":"安檢所前往查看後逮人然後軟性嫌犯說法是他把快頂靠岸之後自己走上岸上請路過民眾打電話報案署長光你們自己單位就兩個版本不一樣到底哪個版本是真的啊ABC哪個真的啊那個跟委員報告我們"},{"start":169.557,"end":191.576,"text":"北部分署跟海軍發布的版本是一次的只不過是民眾賽10.54報案第一次有講所以軟信侵犯的說法是錯的第二次我們沒有寫上去那跟委員報告實際是這樣我們9點44分雷達監控到之後第一時間要通報艦艇攔截他沒有通報接下來跟委員報告10點20我們守望掃描研究發現"},{"start":193.334,"end":220.751,"text":"業者報案是10點54分有嗎10點54分我們在10點20分我告訴你基本上我也很欣賞你們反正已經全盤掌握就放人上岸就這樣就這麼簡單沒關係我告訴你基本上你不要講說今天海巡前陣子發生無人機到哨所上面去丟放傳單結果呢說因為是鋼哨不是營區這也是我們政府的說法"},{"start":222.598,"end":242.509,"text":"對外阿 剛剛我們張祺敢說不要在對內找敵人啦我們國安戰略是對外放敵人啦任何的今天喊了這麼多的國防、國安措施對外就是無能兩個字來形容但是對內我非常欣賞我們的國安戰略阿我就要問一下中華電信阿中華電信"},{"start":244.385,"end":271.848,"text":"請問一下,四方今天到底掌握什麼資料?他的伺服器裡面有民眾的什麼樣的資料在裡面?跟你們報告,如果之前的說明,四方他本身是我告訴你,他可以拿去做輿情監控,他就掌握,他的資料來源是哪裡?中華電信吧?報告委員,中華電信的資料一定是留在中華電信公司"},{"start":272.625,"end":282.364,"text":"一定留在中華電信公司啊那我問你吼今天我們前面在講為什麼講說你們今天來請國安局長我們今天就看到吼"},{"start":283.742,"end":304.967,"text":"從王毅川開始,他能夠精確地掌握資料,當然中華電信否認啦,四方進來你也否認啦可是招招攔的事實就是有一筆資料可以拿去做分析,分析人流,分析今天不同場域的政黨傾向的重疊度啊請問這樣的科技,這樣的科證的工具,我不知道我們的國安局有沒有掌握"},{"start":305.809,"end":327.862,"text":"這部份檢方已經在查辦了我想還是尊重司法單位好 我要問一下依照現行通保法規定避免國家安全遭受危害國安局移民署可以幫助對幫助境外敵對勢力進行通訊偵查對不對是那沈博洋說中共可能威脅在中國做生意或蹊蹺在中國人希望這些人在開戰時進行一些任務他認為這高風險群有幾十萬人"},{"start":332.805,"end":340.649,"text":"所以要管好,然後主張對這第五縱隊的高風險群來控管、偵防,你認同嗎?你有沒有受到高層指示來監控這些高風險群?我們現在針對這些高風險群的監控是什麼樣作為?"},{"start":356.96,"end":372.587,"text":"我們對陸生、陸配、台商會不會視為高風險群進行偵訪?現在有沒有視為高風險群進行偵訪?所以會不會把特別區隔出來作為高風險群?這個部分我剛剛一直在強調的是要由司法警察機關我問你嗎?有沒有?我不是講個案喔!局長提!我不是講個案喔!對!"},{"start":378.169,"end":379.089,"text":"假如委員提到的這些身份的民眾他有涉入或是有涉及到"},{"start":403.279,"end":407.602,"text":"有沒有普遍性36萬有沒有你到現在連這個問題都不敢回答那我就嚴重懷疑你有你就是有監控36萬我這樣講你你接受嗎你有沒有監控36萬謝謝你直接回答就好了我告訴你為什麼不行"},{"start":424.045,"end":445.024,"text":"法律本來就是要...我跟委員講因為貴院通過的通保法強調的一種概念是在於最小侵害的原則這是我們依法...你不廢話我也知道我還需要你解釋是是這樣我講的就是你今天有沒有通案你已經告訴我答案就好啦我一樣就答你沒有阿對啊依照案情來整合依照案情整合依法行政謝謝"},{"start":447.847,"end":461.635,"text":"那很簡單沈博洋就是廢話他要求是針對高風險群就是針對群別來進行監控我謝謝你今天蔡明彥說沒有啦然後接下來我要講自由時報說這個也是沈博洋講如果沒有針對這些高風險群進行控管人別控管台灣就會完蛋啦"},{"start":475.438,"end":497.714,"text":"臺灣完蛋了沒?你們也沒有針對高風險群進行群別的控管啊?依照證據,偵辦相關案件依照相關的法律條件來進行偵辦你不要給我問A答B事實上就是這樣你現在已經前面跟我們要推翻了你前面沒有針對群別做所謂的政治偵探不會針對群別我們依照的是案情那臺灣完蛋了沒?依照案情臺灣完蛋了沒?臺灣完蛋了沒?臺灣完蛋了沒?"},{"start":502.807,"end":513.716,"text":"馬上完蛋了沒,答不出來,你不敢得罪沈博雅嘛,這麼簡單接下來我要講,事實上我們會發現我們的科技偵查法裡面也有規範"},{"start":515.287,"end":537.555,"text":"就是為確保國家安全維護社會秩序制定本法那我想請問局長GPS定位追蹤、N化汽車定位、使用熱血象儀等科技偵查手段是不是未來就會使用在國安方面偵訪還是現在已經在使用中?就相關的偵訪手段來講我們並不是偵查單位那必須要看有司法警察用的單位來進行"},{"start":539.995,"end":559.633,"text":"我們沒有司法警察權我們沒有司法警察權國安局沒有那在通訊這個監察方面那針對所謂的通保法監聽結束之後所以換言之國安局相關的我們國家安全單位都不用做監聽就對了我已經指的是監聽我講通保法監聽"},{"start":561.435,"end":577.805,"text":"對,我們剛剛講到的是,只要司法警察機關有這個需要,送到國安局來審查通訊偵查的必要性的話,我們進行審查,再送請高等法院,法官來同意。對阿,沒錯阿,所以你們也會執行監聽嗎?只是要有一個法律程序嗎?"},{"start":579.796,"end":604.564,"text":"國安局是審核機關,我們不是執行國安局的機關。好,我要問一下,就算你是審核機關,相關為執行國安業務進行的監聽事後會不會通知當事人?這個要看案情的狀況,依照法律規定,沒有,看案情的狀況,三個月評估一次,法律規定是這樣子的。法律規定要通知,事後要通知,這是法律規定的。要由法院來通知,沒有,沒有,理清了委員也請看清楚法律。"},{"start":605.024,"end":629.219,"text":"這要由法院在結案之後,針對案子的決定制的通知。﹗不廢話,在結案之後啊,偵辦中不會通知我也知道啊﹗是,沒有錯,法律是這樣寫﹗對啊,那你前面要給我拗了半天,拗什麼啊﹗我沒有啊,就是舉照法律的情形﹗好啦,最後一件事情啊,最後一件事情,我要跟你講今天授予我們國安單位,來用國家來去做所謂的那個安全的一些偵查,是有必要的,我支持啊"},{"start":630.111,"end":630.251,"text":"好,謝謝接下來"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}