{"error":false,"id":["153891"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153891,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153891","日期":"2024-06-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-26","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":26,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-12T12:12:08+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-12T12:22:00+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:52","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81947c0a787d11eaf9659a48fe1a1d57c38dc42bf70e43d78a9b2e2f3909ef031385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:12:08 - 12:22:00","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":947,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時12分）謝謝主席，請蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["張委員啓楷：還有NCC的翁副主委、中華電信的林副總經理。"],["主席：請NCC及中華電信，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，現在你這個國安單位應該很擔心，一方面是陸船直接開進了淡水、另外一方面是執政黨中央政策會的執行長像老大哥一樣的監控著我們臺灣的民眾，包括小草及青鳥。此外，還有執政黨的立法委員說要對我們臺灣幾十萬的高風險族群，可能還包括陸配，進行監控，聽了之後真是煩惱。","我先問你第一個問題，我們的國防部長顧立雄說要行使自衛權的條件是什麼？只要共軍侵入我們12浬的領空或領海，結果發生昨天那樣的事情，快艇都開進來了、都直接衝到淡水河去了，我們有行使我們的自衛權嗎？我們有完全掌握、有逮捕人嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：針對這個部分的處理，剛剛海巡……"],["張委員啓楷：是不是漏洞百出？到目前為止3個版本還兜不起來，我們的國安是不是出現了很大的漏洞？"],["蔡局長明彥：海巡對這個部分有做一些查處的動作，也有釐清整個案件的過程中還有哪些疑點要進一步進行調查。"],["張委員啓楷：不只是責任要追究，這個漏洞也要趕快補起來、趕快補破網。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，昨天王義川已經被北檢約談了，他說自己是按照資料去比對，所以就是有資料啊！剛剛國昌問了一個問題，是方電訊是中華電信的關係企業，對不對？剛剛他拿出來的是鐵錚錚的證據，它承攬了臺南市政府的業務，此外，它還承攬了蔡英文總統的數據分析。從105年的總統大選開始，蔡英文總統競選總統時輿情監測及輿情分析的費用，到了109年還有3筆，做什麼？數據的費用、數據分析的費用。","我要問局長及中華電信，是方是中華電信的關係企業，一方面我們的立委從徐巧芯到黃國昌都指證歷歷，王義川的資料就是它給的，我現在更進一步給大家看，蔡英文總統與它也有業務上的交往，現在國安單位及NCC是不是要去查清楚？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個部分可能還是要確認一下，所謂相關的業務有沒有涉及到它的資料是否已經去識別化或是非去識別化，這是第一個要釐清的法律要件。因為這個案子檢調已經在調查，而我們國安局並沒有司法調查權，對於相關的資訊在細節上，可能中華電信這邊會比較有……"],["張委員啓楷：NCC與中華電信至少要做二件事情，第一，你們的一些data都在那個地方，對不對？針對data有沒有外流，你一直在搖頭，但你沒有去查又怎麼知道有沒有外流，對不對？第二，民眾一定會有疑問，現在說是方與人家業務合作，但是方明明沒有這個業務啊！它與臺南市政府也沒有這個業務啊！為什麼它可以做這件事情？資料從哪裡來的？只有三家電信有這個資料，現在與它關係密切的是中華電信啊！現在不是你搖頭耶！這是一個客觀的事實，你就要去查啊！是不是如此？NCC要去查、檢調也要去查。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，關於是方在電信服務的部分，我們會去查。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，最近還有一個也是蠻嚴重的問題，引起了蠻大的恐慌，執政黨的立法委員沈伯洋直接挑戰你們，在他接受專訪時就直接表示，國安局很難對國內人士做偵防，臺灣應該要有一個應對中國的作戰中心，對國內的高風險群要進行控管。這段話中有二點與你有關，第一個，他說你們國安局那麼努力，但是對於國內某些可能會被滲透的或第五縱隊並沒辦法做偵防，真是如此嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：不會啦！關於這個部分，早上黃國昌委員已經表示過關切，而我們也做了相關的說明，也就是說，這幾年我們國安團隊進行國安案件的偵辦非常積極，從去年到現在已經偵辦了81個案件，檢方起訴的有39個案件，這個已經是歷年來最高的數字了。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，你贊不贊成臺灣應該要有一個應對中國的作戰中心，對國內的高風險群進行控管？你贊成這個意見嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：委員對於如何強化國安的一些討論或建議，我們都尊重啦！但我要特別強調的是……"],["張委員啓楷：現在已經引起那麼多人的恐慌，你還尊重喔？國安局長對於這種要監控幾十萬人的意見是尊重的嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：言論自由的社會，對於怎麼樣強化國安機制，這個部分我們尊重。怎麼樣強化國安機制，每個委員有每個委員的看法，我們都表示尊重，但是我一直強調，透過我們國安團隊對於國安案件的偵防一定全力以赴。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，我念給你聽，沈伯洋說的高風險群有幾十萬人，他說在一開始就要將他們管好，要讓這些人知道自己是高風險的，有些事情不能做，現在問題是臺灣哪個單位要負責第五縱隊？是國安局嗎？判斷哪些人是中國的協力者？其中特別提到一點更是引起大家的恐慌，他說中共可能威脅在中國做生意或有妻小在中國的人，包括陸配38萬人，這樣不會引起這些人的恐慌嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們偵辦國安案件或共諜案一定要有法律的依據，這也是為什麼我們國安團隊偵辦相關案件時要依照國安法及反滲透法的法律要件進行蒐證，有的話才會移送檢調單位偵辦。對於我們的蒐證結果，到底檢調單位，特別是院方，最後會怎麼裁罰，我們就尊重司法的判決。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，其中有一個重要的點，被點名為高風險群的，包括立法委員、村里長及陸配，這個在臺灣有那麼多人，該如何讓他們覺得自己不是被欺負的，甚至是有可能會被監控，該如何讓他們安心？"],["蔡局長明彥：不會，剛剛我向委員說明的就是這個部分，我們所有國安案件的偵辦都一定要有法律當作基礎，這是我們民主法治國家最基本的標準。"],["張委員啓楷：黑熊學院是一個民間機構，它做一些民防之事並沒有什麼不妥，但它的創辦人是現任的立法委員喔！也是執政黨不分區的男性第一名！我現在要問的是另一位爭議性人物，也就是我們剛剛講的王義川，民進黨中央政策會執行長。現在他們代表的是執政黨意念的一個表達嗎？他們不約而同都提到要監控人民的意圖及疑似的作為，這是不是一種民主的倒退？是不是一種白色恐怖？我們臺灣以前經歷過白色恐怖之後，現在又要來一個綠色恐怖嗎？歷史的教訓還不夠嗎？國安局有責任讓全民是可以安心的。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這個部分……"],["張委員啓楷：國安局有相關的監控措施也不是不可以，但是一定要得到可靠的情報，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["張委員啓楷：就像你說的，有可靠的情報之後，你才能夠針對某個個人或團體進行監聽嘛！但現在並不是啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：現在我們還是這樣辦理。"],["張委員啓楷：現在民進黨內部無論是王義川講的或沈伯洋講的，都是先將某個族群劃為可能的敵人，這個在民主國家不是很危險又很荒謬的事嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：向委員說明一下……"],["張委員啓楷：在自己的國家裡面製造敵人、把自己劃分出去，陸配就有38萬人，局長……"],["蔡局長明彥：向委員說明一下……"],["張委員啓楷：局長，38萬名陸配現在是你們的監控對象嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，剛剛我一直強調，針對相關國安案件的偵辦，假如有涉及到通訊監察的話，一定要走非常嚴謹的法律及行政程序，國安局並不是發動的單位，必須要由司法檢察機關，包括警政署、憲警調有這樣的需求，送到國安局進行審核，再由高等法院的法官進行相關的偵查。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，希望透過今天的質詢，讓沈伯洋講的高風險群的這些人能夠安心，相信自己並不會被監控，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：是，國安偵辦依照法律來、依照法律來。"],["張委員啓楷：就是依照法律來，這是一個。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，依法行政。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，最後要強調一點，只要愛臺灣、認同臺灣的人都是臺灣人，只要愛臺灣、認同臺灣的人都是臺灣人，不要在自己的國內再找敵人了、不要再撕裂整個社會了、不要再操作對立了，國安局的任務非常重要，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：是，國安案件偵辦依法行政。"],["張委員啓楷：團結民眾，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["張委員啓楷：愛我們的臺灣人，多謝！謝謝！"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請羅智強委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.62034375,"end":10.392218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.61159375,"end":11.387843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.67471875,"end":11.691593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.691593750000003,"end":12.822218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.708468750000002,"end":12.585968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.31159375,"end":15.336593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.977843750000002,"end":18.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.52596875,"end":18.559718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.559718750000002,"end":23.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.42159375,"end":39.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.65346875,"end":40.244093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.37909375,"end":40.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.39596875,"end":40.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.64909375,"end":40.69971875},{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這個應該查得你一直在搖頭你沒有去查怎麼知道他有沒有外流對不對 要不然第二個民眾一定有個疑問嘛那四方 四方跟人家業務 業務合作他明明沒這個業務啊他跟台南市政府也沒有這個業務啊他為什麼可以做這個事情資料從哪邊來"},{"start":253.874,"end":282.045,"text":"只有三家電信有這個資料嘛 對不對那現在關機密順便掀起中華電信啊現在不是你搖頭耶這是一個客觀的事實啊你最好去查啊是不是這樣NCC要去查 檢調人要查那個有關於四方的假使電信服務的部分我們會去查還對OK 會進去嘛來來 局長我再問你一個最近還有一個也是蠻嚴重的問題引起蠻大的恐慌的這陣動的立法委員沈博洋"},{"start":283.322,"end":310.857,"text":"他直接挑戰你們,他是接受針訪的時候,他直接說他說啊國安局啊很難對國內人士做針訪他說台灣應該要一個應對中國的作戰中心對國內的高風險的高風險群要進行控管這兩個人裡面,有兩個叫你管的第一,他說你國安局那麼努力可是"},{"start":312.386,"end":316.615,"text":"你對國內的某些可能會被滲透或者第五縱隊你是沒辦法做申訪嗎?"},{"start":318.472,"end":344.097,"text":"這部分剛剛早上黃蓮委員也有在關切我們做過相關的說明也就是說這幾年我們在國安團隊進行國安案件的偵辦非常的積極那去年到現在已經有偵辦了81個案件那檢方起訴有39個案件那這已經是歷來最大的數字你贊不贊成說台灣應該要有一個應對中國的作戰中心對國內的高風險群進行控管你有贊成這個意見嗎"},{"start":344.957,"end":357.411,"text":"我想委員對於一些怎麼樣來強化國安的一些討論或建議我們都尊重但是我要特別強調尊重現在引起那麼多人的恐慌你尊重喔國安局長對於這樣的一個要監控監控幾十萬人你是尊重的嗎"},{"start":360.635,"end":360.975,"text":"沈博洋講的高風險情"},{"start":377.329,"end":379.61,"text":"中共可能威脅在中國做生意．或者有蹊蹺在中國的人．包括陸配,38萬"},{"start":410.383,"end":430.447,"text":"我們在偵辦國安案件或共諜案一定要有法律的依據那這也是為什麼我們國安團隊在偵辦相關的案件要依照國安法跟反滲透法的法律要件來蒐證有的話才會移送檢調單位來偵辦那我們蒐證結果到底檢調單位特別是院方最後怎麼裁法這我們尊重司法的判決"},{"start":431.267,"end":457.129,"text":"市長裡面有一個很重要的點被點名是高風險的包括立法委員、傳理長、陸配就在台灣有這麼多人你怎麼讓這些人覺得他不是被欺負的有可能會被監控怎麼讓他們安心我剛剛跟委員說明就在這一部分我們的所有的偵辦國安案件都一定要有法律當基礎這就是我們民主法治國家最基本的標準黑熊協議有很多民間的這個機構他做一些民防的這個沒有什麼不同"},{"start":458.12,"end":481.951,"text":"可是他創辦人現任的立法委員也是執政黨不溫區男性第一名包括另外一個爭議性人物我們剛才在講的王逸川民進黨中央政策會執行長他們現在代表是什麼是執政黨的一個意念的一個表達嗎他不約而同裡面都提到什麼要監控人民的意圖跟儀式的作為這是不是一種民主倒退是不是一種白色恐怖"},{"start":482.964,"end":510.341,"text":"我們台灣以前經歷了白色恐怖之後現在要來一個綠色的恐怖嗎?歷史的教訓還不過嗎?國安局有責任讓全民是可以安心的國安局有相關的監控措施也不是不可以可是一定要得到可靠的情報對不對?有可靠的就像你說的有可靠的情報之後你才能夠針對某個個人或團體做監聽嘛可是現在不是啊"},{"start":511.461,"end":528.859,"text":"在民進黨裡面不管是王逸川講的或者是邢博安講的他是什麼他先把某個族群把他化成說是可能的敵人這個在民主國家裡面不是很危險荒謬的事嗎在自己的國家裡面去製造敵人把自己劃分出去錄片就有38萬人"},{"start":531.363,"end":557.356,"text":"局長,38萬的陸配現在是你們的監控對象嗎?沒有,我剛剛一直在強調的是,針對相關國安案件的偵辦,假如要涉及到有通訊監察的話,一定要走非常嚴謹的法律跟行政程序。國安局並不是發動單位,必須要由司法警察機關,包括警政署、縣警調有這樣的需求送到國安局,國安局進行審核,再由高等法院法官來進行。"},{"start":558.777,"end":571.529,"text":"透過今天這個執行讓所謂沈博洋講的高風險型的這些人能夠安心他不是會變心痛這是依照法律來這是依照法律來這是一個第二個我們最後要強調的我們只要是愛台灣認同台灣的人都是台灣啦"},{"start":575.168,"end":587.661,"text":"只要愛台灣、認同台灣人、恭喜台灣人不要在自己的國內再找敵人了不要再撕裂整個社會操作對立了國安局的任務非常重要好不好是,國安案件正辦,依法行政愛我們的台灣人,謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}