{"error":false,"id":["153934"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153934,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153934","日期":"2024-06-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[36,15],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會","內政委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-13T10:11:53+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-13T10:19:32+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:39","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba025f3bf709422c8f58ff7e0bc1ebc5021ae5baf1b56d477344d80454cee631a6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:11:53 - 10:19:32","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":375,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時12分）主席，請銓敘部政次、警政署署長及消防署署長。"],["主席：麻煩次長、警政署署長、消防署署長。"],["張次長秋元：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：銓敘部政次，本席在這裡先跟你探討一個問題，公務人員、警消跟軍人在這裡面為什麼會有這樣的差別？軍人的上限是95%，公務人員是70%，結果到118年的時候，改為62.5%，在這個過程當中，你們是怎麼去論定的？你認為95%、70%有道理嗎？為什麼會這樣訂定？因為外面說得風風雨雨，以軍人、消防人員跟警察人員來比較，說實在的，我心情很難過，大家都知道軍人有服役年限，不過警察跟消防人員也有付出跟安全的問題，所以本席在這裡要跟你探討的是，當時是怎樣去論定的，是不是請你講清楚好不好？"],["張次長秋元：好，謝謝委員給我這個機會跟大家講清楚，關於軍人的部分，當然當時在進行年金改革的時候就經過大家的討論，因為他們的性質確實跟大家不一樣，他們是整天都要在營區裡面。"],["王委員美惠：24小時嘛！"],["張次長秋元：24小時，他不是輪班輪休，也不是正常上下班，他的工作項目跟我們服務的狀況也不一樣，所以那時候就是把它切割開，我剛剛也跟委員報告過，這個部分連基金的部分是分帳去管理，它是獨立的，跟公務員沒有併在一起。至於公務員這個部分，就是所有的公務員都一樣……"],["王委員美惠：所有的公務員都一樣？"],["張次長秋元：對，剛剛我有報告，不管你在職的時候是醫師，他的薪水比較高嘛，還是說是警察或一般的公務員，但是他在退休後沒工作的時候，其實他的基本生活是一樣的，所以考量在沒有工作因素的狀況底下，我們就把他一致性的去處理。"],["王委員美惠：因為不一樣，所以才會分成95%和70%，在這個過程當中……"],["張次長秋元：因為這兩個……剛剛我也有跟委員報告，剛才委員有問我這兩個有沒有辦法比較……"],["王委員美惠：我現在要問你，你現在回答我就好了，好不好？"],["張次長秋元：好。"],["王委員美惠：看看到底是怎麼樣，把它說清楚是最重要的。"],["張次長秋元：當初為什麼要做這個處理？就是因為基金已經沒辦法支持大家繼續這樣領，到時候大家都……"],["王委員美惠：因為退撫基金沒辦法再讓大家這樣領，所以我們才會做這樣的改變，重點在這裡。本席要跟你探討一下，未來我們如果再修改，而且是改成可以領比較多、不是領比較少，我們有辦法支應嗎？這是最重要的。"],["張次長秋元：一定是沒辦法嘛！一定會再提早，如果大家領越多，就會提早……"],["王委員美惠：會再提早？提早的意思是說未來公教人員可能領不到退休金？"],["張次長秋元：我不能這樣說，因為我們政府要負責，但是……"],["王委員美惠：政府要負責，但你卻說沒辦法支應，這些年輕人當公務人員，這麼辛苦考試進去的，卻還是讓他們這樣冒險，這樣誰要進公家機關服務？"],["張次長秋元：所以我今天為什麼會提出這麼多理由說希望維持現在的制度，就是這樣可以爭取讓我們的退撫基金有一個好的改善機會。"],["王委員美惠：好，我最主要就是要來問你，以前的公務員我們有照顧，現在要照顧現有的和要考進來的，你的問題是說我們沒辦法支應，雖然國家要負責，但事實上就是沒錢、沒辦法支應，就像你說的啊！我知道你們的困難在這裡。","兩位署長，我要跟你們講，你們有聽到剛剛政次講的，未來如果這樣修改的話，單位內的年輕人也有可能領不到退休金，所以我覺得大家要討論，一個國家不是詛咒讓別人死的，國家是大家要維護的。現有的警察人員、消防人員非常辛苦，加班費長久以來都不曾增加，最後加班費才從1萬7,000元調整為1萬9,000元，其實我覺得還不夠，現有的公務人員、消防人員、警察人員都非常辛苦，甚至還要冒著生命的危險去打拚，所以我覺得身為大家長的二位，應該要好好去爭取現有公務人員及警消人員的權利，聽得懂吧！"],["張署長榮興：聽得懂。"],["王委員美惠：人員也不夠，老實說，他們非常的辛苦，所以你們要好好去處理。","拜託主席再給我1分鐘，我想請問海巡署署長，前天你們記過懲處10個人，但我相信未來還會有很多這樣的狀況，但我們修法時都沒規範快艇進來要怎麼處理，我們只有規範盜砂船該如何處罰及處理，所以本席會和你們一起打拚，有錯誤的地方我們要加強，我們為了中華民國臺灣的國土一定要維持好，以上。"],["張署長忠龍：謝謝委員的指導。"],["主席：下一位請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra 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