{"error":false,"id":["153950"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153950,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153950","日期":"2024-06-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-16","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":16,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-13T10:26:59+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-13T10:39:11+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:12","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba03b87df2e9579d51a79c37d5c63265337ae5baf1b56d477341aa97a5015985c895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:26:59 - 10:39:11","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員陳素月等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n(委員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)【6月12日及13日兩天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":455,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時27分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：我們請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長早安。部長你知道國會改革方案以後，很多立委跟民眾最想成立的第一個調查委員會要查什麼案子嗎？是農業部去年逾期的進口雞蛋，所以這個事情看起來還有很多後續應該對外要交代清楚。我先跟大家講一下，這幾天包括國昌委員跟我，我們一直在追，現在看起來不是只有去年超思雞蛋的問題，看起來前年還有些問題，等於今天我們要好好來討論，現在民眾為什麼對超思那麼有興趣，最少還有三個問題，第一個，去年花了10億，對不對？10億是人民的納稅錢，民脂民膏，這是第一點。第二個，銷毀太多了，五千五百多萬顆的蛋。第三個，因為有一個不可思議、神通廣大的超思出現了，現在我們要針對超思做一個……為什麼超不可思議呢？包括農業部、中央畜產會為什麼拿那麼多的民脂民膏給了超思？再來，我們發現它的採購竟然是免合約的，還幫忙洗經歷。","來，我們來看一下超思，大家都知道去年超思引起軒然大波，結果去追才發現它前年就從日本買了很多蛋進來了，它什麼時候成立的？2022年，民國111年9月5日成立，結果9月成立，11月份的時候，日本蛋就進來了，大家以前耳熟能詳，都在說去年巴西蛋進來，其實前年它就進來日本蛋了，我再重複一次，大家熟悉去年進了巴西蛋，其實前年就進了很多日本蛋了。現在大家在問，部長，一間公司9月份成立，11月就透過你們的中央畜產會買斷了這麼多的蛋，這個金額超過1億2,800萬，我再講一次喔！它是一個資本額只有50萬的公司，這位秦老闆出了1,000塊錢，50萬資本額，老闆、董事長出1,000塊，結果他在民國111年9月5號成立，兩個月內，他就做了中央畜產會跟農業部一個大生意，一億二千八百多萬，這合理嗎？一間資本額這麼小，可以做這麼大生意，這是一個，這一般的公司不可能這樣做吧！第二個，為什麼馬上開張，農業部跟中央畜產會就給他這筆生意？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員說明，委員一直針對超思的部分，我之前也已經講過了，這些資訊其實一直影射農業部有涉及相關的一些不法，我在這邊也非常正式的跟委員報告，其實在112年專案雞蛋的調度，111年是例行的產銷調節，農委會是補助他例行產銷調節，但是因為委員的一些索資，我們也正式進行了2次行政調查，相關的行政調查裡面有一些疑慮的，我們甚至於請我們的政風去做瞭解，然後我們甚至於把相關的資料移請……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，很好，你願意面對……"],["陳部長駿季：我先說明……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我先講一下事情，因為你剛用了一個很嚴重的字眼，這個不是什麼影射喔！這是一個客觀的事實，我們來看這是不是一個客觀的事實，你們給我的……"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我想因為同樣的數據可能你們本身在解讀方面……所以我說因為我不希望我們同仁……我的立場是如果同仁犯法，我絕對不寬容，但是同仁如果是清白的，我希望儘快還給他清白，因為我們畜牧司的同仁現在已經非常辛苦了，他們要處理非常多的業務，所以我也主動的移請檢調單位能夠去釐清，因為唯有檢調釐清，才能夠迅速的還給我們同仁的清白。"],["張委員啓楷：對，很好，這是一個客觀的事實啦！都不是用嘴巴啦！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：到底有沒有不法？有沒有影射？這都不是……"],["陳部長駿季：所以後續……對，後續……"],["張委員啓楷：現在重點就是，一方面檢調要查，等一下我再講，要不要立法院成立調查委員會小組來查，這是一個，事實上之前檢調也有在查嘛！現在都沒消息了，我們會繼續追，我們用客觀的事實來討論這個事情，好不好？","接下來，我問你一下，你們有回文給我，中央畜產會回函給本席，這個是超不可思議的事情，他說前年有兩家公司去買了日本蛋，大家看第一個，用合約的方式執行採購雞蛋34櫃510萬顆，貿易商是亮采生物科技；第二家更特別，以自有資金買斷方式買了158櫃2,540萬顆，很多喔！很多喔！部長，我問你，上面這個買比較少的有合約，對不對？為什麼這個不可思議的超思沒有合約？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們畜產會本身在處理雞蛋調度的時候有他們的作法，因為當初在需要蛋的時候，他們也問過了……"],["張委員啓楷：這個很不合理耶！你用你的……不要用膝蓋，部長，用腦袋，不要用膝蓋，用腦袋想一下這會不會太不可思議？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們同仁有一些解釋，我們行政調查後認為有一些解釋，所以我才會說，最後我們希望讓我們……"],["張委員啓楷：你會把這個案子送到檢調去查還是怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我們已經主動地移請檢調去瞭解……"],["張委員啓楷：有移請？"],["陳部長駿季：有移請，所以我才會說……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們來看一下為什麼不合理，我說給你聽……"],["陳部長駿季：合不合理，我想可能要真正地調查以後才瞭解，因為……"],["張委員啓楷：你有調查啊，你不是調查完之後已經送到檢調了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對啊，所以他是有一個解釋，我認同同仁的解釋，但我不是法律專家，我沒有辦法判斷後面的部分，所以我相信，我也期待委員能夠……檢調已經在調查了，針對最後檢調的調查結果，如果說真的有不法，我絕對不會寬容；如果是我們的同仁有行政瑕疵，我們會就行政瑕疵部分來處理，沒有其他的貪瀆案件，我也希望還給我們同仁一個清白，這是我的立場。"],["張委員啓楷：當然，我一直在強調它是一個客觀事實，所以我們今天才要討論嘛，那最後當然結果……"],["陳部長駿季：因為我們這樣的討論，我沒辦法判斷。"],["張委員啓楷：我來做超級比一比，你看一下，為什麼沒有合約？一般民眾一定接受不了為什麼沒有合約嘛，而且你把它超級比一比，超思的資本額是50萬，這家有合約的亮采生物科技資本額是100萬，亮采勝出；成立時間，亮采是民國97年了，它也勝出，只有在進口數量方面，為什麼超思多了那麼多？亮采明明它的資本額、成立時間，而且它有合約，為什麼超思買了那麼多卻沒有合約，民眾會怎麼去想這個事情？所以你說要移送檢調，好，我們就看這個結果怎麼樣。","我們再看下一張，裡面還有一個很不可思議的，超思不只是十年不開張、開張吃十年喔，你看它在前年一成立，馬上日本蛋就進來，它就做完生意了，後來馬上就停下來了，它還暫停營業，暫停營業沒有多久，它開始復業，復業之後馬上巴西蛋就進來了，這就是一般人講的，是不是十年不開張、開張吃十年？而且專門做農業部、中央畜產會的生意，這是一個點。第二個，裡面到底有沒有官商勾結？好，我們就進一步去查，我再問一個很有疑問點的，當初農業部跟中央畜產會出來對超思講話，他說為什麼它去年可以進那麼多的巴西蛋？結果現在發現了，因為前年有日本這一筆，我就要問了，你說因為它有做過日本的生意，所以它可以從巴西進口蛋，問題是兩年前它也根本都沒有經驗，為什麼給它一個一億多的生意？這是另外一個點。","我們再看下一張，現在有人在問說中央畜產會這麼大的金額到底有沒有經過採購？我特別去查了預算書，部長，中央畜產會大部分的錢，它成立的時候就是用農業部的錢，農業部的錢是誰的錢？是人民的錢嘛，用人民的錢、民脂民膏來設立的，用任何一分錢……"],["陳部長駿季：它應該不是百分之百。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，至少裡面有很多是政府的錢，對不對？部長你看每一年度，109年政府補助的錢超過10億，占比是74%，110年88%，這麼多的錢，裡面都是人民的錢，所以它應該是要接受監督的，可是現在發現你們把責任都推到中央畜產會了，所以一定要查。接下來，要怎麼查……"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員說明，畜產會本身是財團法人，所以在相關規範裡面，如果要適用政府採購法，一定要超過51%的補助，而畜產會是針對畜牧法所成立的，它負責國內的產銷調節。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你說要超過51%，那它有超過51%嗎？我跳回上一張給你看一下，每一個都超過51%啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，它本身負責國內的畜產部分，包括所有屠宰場獸醫師的屠宰檢查都是畜產會負責，所以相對地，其實這些政府補助費用，畜產會有它背後需要去協助產業升級的一個非常重要的經費支持。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，謝謝，你今天應該看得出來，我們是很理性在問，我們都是客觀的，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我們再看下一張，到底後來要怎麼查？監察院一定也會查嘛……"],["陳部長駿季：監察院也有調查。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個就是你說已經送檢調；另外一個就是立法院要不要成立一個調查小組，其實我知道的是監察院審計部也在查了，這個事情要給人民一個真相。","我再問下一個，我肯定你喔，你接受媒體專訪的時候，你說以後不會再用這種專案進口的方式。不過我必須提醒你，這是人治，真正要解決的問題是什麼？所以我剛剛講了，解答人民的疑問，為什麼要花10億？第二個是為什麼銷毀那麼多？第三個，超思為什麼這麼神通廣大？這三個點你解釋不清楚，人民就一直畫問號了，當然答案就是你剛剛講的，要嘛就是國會調查，要嘛就是檢調，你已經移送了，期待檢調趕快有答案。"],["陳部長駿季：以現在的制度……"],["張委員啓楷：最後，我期待你做一件事情，不是用人治的方式，我期待你建立一個制度，好不好？你剛才有提到你們跟中央畜產會的關係，你要不要用修法的方式去檢視這次專案進口雞蛋的缺失？包括中央畜產會拿我們的民脂民膏這麼多錢，以後只要有比較大的採購，不只是雞蛋而已，它有大的採購是不是至少要有合約？要怎麼去規範它，你至少把它訂出來，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們已經在做專案的檢討，針對畜產會過去的行政疏失，我們在做專案的檢討。"],["張委員啓楷：好。部長，我知道你很盡心盡力在做，說實在的，不管是去年的事情、前年的事情，這都是上一任部長的事情，也是上一任中央畜產會的事情，我是肯定你願意去面對，你也是老實人，可是我要提醒你，人民為什麼到現在為止最想知道的會是進口蛋這個問題？為什麼期待立法院的調查委員會或是我們經濟委員會成立的調查小組要先查清楚這個案子？因為剛剛講的疑問點還很多，我們要一起加油，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：一定要解決問題，人民才會同意說這個問題是要通過的，到目前為止人民有太多疑問。我們共同努力，謝謝部長。謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請賴瑞隆委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","邱議瑩","鄭天財Sra 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to the final simple survey result, if there is really a violation, I will not tolerate it."},{"start":409.274,"end":419.341,"text":"那如果說我們同仁是屬於行政瑕疵,我們會行政瑕疵處理。那沒有其他的貪圖的案件,我也希望還給我們同仁一個清白。這是我的立場。這是我的立場。"},{"start":434.871,"end":460.703,"text":"這家有合約的釀材釀材生物科技他資本額一百啊釀材勝出對不對成立時間釀材民國九十七年啊他也勝出啊只有在進口數量的方面為什麼超市多了那麼多釀材明明資本額成立時間而且他有合約是怎麼超市買了那麼多沒有合約這民眾會怎麼去想這個事情"},{"start":463.447,"end":489.551,"text":"所以你說要移送檢調嘛。好,我們就看這個結果怎麼樣。來,我們再看下一張。而且啊,裡面還有一個很不可思議的。操司不只是10年不開張,開張是10年喔。你看,他在前年一成立,馬上就日本彈進來,他就做完生意了。後來馬上就停下來了。欸,他還停業,暫停營業。暫停營業沒有多久,他開始復業,復業馬上巴西彈就進來了。這就是一般人講的嘛。是不是?"},{"start":491.257,"end":512.803,"text":"十年不開張,開張四十年,而且專門做的就是農業部中央系長會的這個生意,這是一個點。第二個裡面你剛剛講到底有沒有關山勾結,好,我們就進一步去查。我再問一個很疑問點的。當初農業部中央系長會出來對超市公會,他說什麼?為什麼他去年可以禁那麼多的巴西蛋?結果現在發現了,因為前年有日本這一筆。我就在問啊。"},{"start":513.513,"end":523.111,"text":"你說因為他有做過這個日本的生意所以他從巴西進來問題是兩年前你根本都沒有經驗啊為什麼給他一個一億多的生意這是另外一個點的那我們看下一張"},{"start":524.933,"end":550.699,"text":"現在有人在問啦,他說中央市場會這麼大的金額到底要不要經過採購我特別去查了預算書,保證中央市場會台北的錢,它成立的時候就是用農業部的錢農業部的錢是什麼人的?人民的錢嘛對不對用人民的錢民主民高設立的,所以用任何一分錢一分錢裡面至少有很多是政府的錢對不對你看每一年度,來來保證你看每一年度109政府補助的錢超過"},{"start":552.469,"end":554.671,"text":"我跟委員說明喔續產會本身是財產法人"},{"start":570.888,"end":579.312,"text":"他本身是財團法人,所以他本身的規範裡面,他如果說要適合政府採購法,那一定要超過51%的補助。那續展會是針對植物法所成立的,他負責國內的產銷調節。"},{"start":585.811,"end":608.81,"text":"我跳回上一張給你看一下,有什麼問題嗎?對,但是相對的,不是,我跟委員說明齁,他本身負責國內的續產部分的包括所有的屠宰場的獸醫師的一個屠宰的檢查都是續產費。所以相對的續產費其實這些的政府補助的費用,其實他有他背後的需要去協助產業。"},{"start":610.282,"end":633.558,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":634.349,"end":644.543,"text":"你接受媒體專訪以前一共啊你說以後不會再用這種專案進口的這個方式不過我必須提醒你這是人質甚至要解決問題是什麼所以我剛剛講的解答人民剛的疑問"},{"start":646.108,"end":664.231,"text":"為什麼要花10億?第二個為什麼銷毀那麼多?第三個超市為什麼這麼神通廣大?這三個點你解釋不清楚人民就一直挖問號了那當然答案會是你剛剛講的要嘛就國會調查要嘛檢調你已經移送了那問一下最後的我期待你做一件事情"},{"start":665.012,"end":666.912,"text":"對,我們已經在做專案的一個檢討。針對市長會過去的行政疏失,我們在做專案的檢討。"},{"start":691.437,"end":707.324,"text":"好,保定,我知道你很盡心盡力在做。啊說實在的,不管是去年的事情、前年的事情,這都是定一定保定的事情。也是上一任中央市長會的事情。我是肯定你願意去面對。老實說你也是老實人。可是我要提醒你,人民為什麼到現在為止最想知道的"},{"start":708.909,"end":729.834,"text":" »:會是進口蛋這個問題。為什麼期待立法院的調查委員會或者是我們經濟委員會成立的調查小組要先查清楚這個案子?因為剛講那個疑問點還很多。我們要一起加油好不好?一定要解決問題,一定要解決問題人民才會同意說這個問題是要通過的。到目前為止人民也有太多疑問好不好?我們共同努力。好謝謝部長,謝謝主席。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}