{"error":false,"id":["154008"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154008,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154008","日期":"2024-06-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[36,15],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會","內政委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-13T12:28:08+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-13T12:35:43+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:35","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba02919d41191c7b8308ff7e0bc1ebc50211d141634ad16f55f7e7c4e88479a19625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"12:28:08 - 12:35:43","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":960,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時28分）謝謝主席，本席請銓敘部張次長，還有警政署張署長。"],["主席：請張次長及張署長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：還有消防署蕭署長。"],["主席：請蕭署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["張次長秋元：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：張次長，恭喜您高升次長，我們好像十幾年前在新竹縣議會……"],["張次長秋元：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：您那時候是人事處長。"],["張次長秋元：鏡蘭秘書非常照顧，非常感謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：先恭喜您。今天想跟您討論，我們今天是談警察人事條例，內容包含警消，首先第一個就是同工同酬跟不同工不同酬，您認同吧？"],["張次長秋元：對，同工同酬，不同工不同酬。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們的警消人員和一般坐辦公室的公務員……"],["張次長秋元：制度上設計是不同的，我剛剛有報告過，等一下我可以再跟委員做比較詳細的說明。"],["徐委員欣瑩：您認同嘛。"],["張次長秋元：我們現制也是這樣在處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我發現你們的報告有寫，就是銓敘部的報告，他們雖然有比較高，但他們工作的危險性和勞動性的程度跟一般公務人員就是不一樣。"],["張次長秋元：這應該是整體面的，我們是就我們人事制度的部分做了哪些事，剛才署長那邊也有說了很多在工作上、配備上、整個的執勤方式應該有更多的配套讓警消同仁能夠有更好的保障。"],["徐委員欣瑩：配備歸配備，但對於警消人員應有的照顧和福利，我們不能忽視，就是不能同等於一般公務人員。"],["張次長秋元：我們的態度是一般公務人員跟警消，警消方面我剛才已經表態過了，我非常尊敬警消的同仁夥伴。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是啊，我們都是。"],["張次長秋元：對我們來講，公務人員和警消人員，其實手心是肉、手背也是肉，我們必須要有一個衡平的對待。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你就先到這裡。公務人員有週休二日，還有國定假日、休假、加班補休，可是警消是輪班制，甚至常常出勤要熬夜，他們還支援非警勤務，最重要的是他們都是冒著生命危險在執勤，所以首先你還要瞭解到，我請兩位署長上來就是說，既然次長說薪水這麼優渥，對他們的照顧好像已經比較好了，我請警政署長和消防署長分別簡答，為什麼警消缺額的問題一直沒有辦法解決？為什麼那麼少人想要去？警消加給這麼多，可是離職這麼多，而且還有提前申請退休等等，多做幾年不是更好，領更多。"],["張次長秋元：報告委員，跟委員搶一點點時間。我們的統計，這幾年警消的退休是一個比較常態的現象，每年大概一千六百多人到1,800人，它是一個穩定的狀態，所以剛剛提到所謂退休潮等等……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這幾年人就一直不足，警消人員都不足，你聽一下警政署和消防署的聲音好不好？"],["張次長秋元：我們這端的統計資料呈現出來就是這樣的狀態，我們可以把數據提供給您。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。請署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。警察的工作不同於其他一般的公務人員，真的是非常繁重。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，危險。"],["張署長榮興：除了本身的工作之外，有危險性、不特定性而且是在輪班，生活步調紊亂，不是只有本身的工作，還有其他機關的職務協助。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，非警勤務。"],["張署長榮興：佔的非常多，所以有些在退休的考慮上可能有時候就是因為經年累月受不了，可能就是提早退休。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們的立場，尤其時代的變化，我們看到警消人員都非常辛苦，當然我們警察人員更是，消防人員是有勤務的時候來協助，但是警察平常打擊犯罪等各方面非常辛苦且危險，所以我覺得給他好的退休制度、好的退休金制度，還有薪水高一點，我認為不能按照一般公務人員來看待。警政署署長有回答了，有關消防人員，蕭署長你簡單答10秒。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員，我們消防人員去年本來要進用1,000位，考試通過300位。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個我在內政委員會問過你了，你不用講。"],["蕭署長煥章：所以未來的幾年，1,000位跟400位是同樣會進駐。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我指的是消防人員工作上的辛苦。"],["蕭署長煥章：當然消防人員工作相當辛苦。"],["徐委員欣瑩：而且危險。"],["蕭署長煥章：隨時因應勤務狀況需要出勤，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：次長，10年前警察號稱8萬大軍，現在剩下7萬，人手變少但勤務增加，加上社會變遷，他們都非常的辛苦。所以我們還是希望，如果真的要講到整體，當然我相信很多委員也有講，整個整體，我們有為的、廉能的政府，錢是絕對可以替民眾、對各行各業來想辦法，但是我也認同要合理，這個合理就在於我們大家要共同來看，我們對警消人員的照顧是不夠的，我們希望對他們能夠更好，所以這個部分也希望次長能夠重視，本席今天就特別跟你談，針對警消我們本來就不一樣。最後表達的就是有關年金改革，其實年金改革也是對不起軍公教人員，怎麼可以違反信賴保護原則？只是這個部分在過去，過去8年我們不談，所以……"],["張次長秋元：報告委員，經過大法官會議解釋……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你自己也是公務人員，我們就是對不起軍公教。"],["張次長秋元：我們事實上……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你如果要改革，可以，但是不能溯及既往，這個是最重要的原則。今天談警察人事條例的部分，我們是針對警消的辛苦跟危險，我們一定要重視，所以他們的照顧我覺得是可以加權、可以加重的，就這樣，謝謝。"],["張次長秋元：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請張智倫委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林德福","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","楊曜","李彥秀","柯建銘","傅崐萁","高金素梅"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 委員蘇清泉等27 人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草\n案」案、(二)委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委\n員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王鴻薇等29人\n擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員\n人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十\n五條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修\n正草案」案、( 八) 委員林思銘等23 人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、\n(九)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.40159375,"end":4.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.55346875,"end":4.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.64159375,"end":8.012843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.87721875,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.83846875,"end":18.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.660968750000002,"end":18.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.72846875,"end":19.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.36971875,"end":19.403468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.980343750000003,"end":27.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.70596875,"end":29.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.69721875,"end":30.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.23284375,"end":35.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.65471875,"end":32.228468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.53596875,"end":36.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.97471875,"end":41.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.447218750000005,"end":37.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.438468750000006,"end":39.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.244093750000005,"end":43.500968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.27721875,"end":58.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.102218750000006,"end":57.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.27909375,"end":60.88221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.11409375,"end":63.632843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.93659375000001,"end":66.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.49721875,"end":70.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.95284375,"end":68.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.62346875,"end":73.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.42034375,"end":77.09909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.22159375000001,"end":77.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.82471875,"end":78.95534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.26346875,"end":82.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.11971875,"end":82.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.24596875,"end":82.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.27971875,"end":82.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.31346875,"end":84.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.96284375,"end":86.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.46471875,"end":94.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.81409375000001,"end":92.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.66596875,"end":94.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.93596875,"end":101.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.92221875000001,"end":108.52034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.28409375000001,"end":129.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.33409375000001,"end":114.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.20284375000001,"end":115.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.96221875,"end":116.08034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.62034375,"end":117.32909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.48471875000001,"end":121.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.91784375,"end":141.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.44784375,"end":141.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.56159375000001,"end":141.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.27034375,"end":157.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.40034375000002,"end":149.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.25534375,"end":160.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.78659375,"end":160.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.32659375,"end":218.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.52284375000002,"end":173.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.59034375000002,"end":173.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.86596875,"end":230.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.27096875,"end":221.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.88659375,"end":222.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.86409375000002,"end":237.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.69034375,"end":245.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.68534375000002,"end":247.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.62534375,"end":249.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.15659375,"end":249.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.20721875,"end":249.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.40971875000002,"end":249.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.42659375000002,"end":249.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.44346875000002,"end":249.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.49409375000002,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.81471875000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案。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}