{"error":false,"id":["154050"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154050,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154050","日期":"2024-06-14","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-14T17:05:37+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-14T17:36:28+08:00","影片長度":"00:30:51","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5066363fcb0c018576e643b74f3fb2175b353bd3059915546a63521c4604b1fc252cafd17ebecc6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"17:05:37 - 17:36:28","會議時間":"2024-06-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":615,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（17時5分）謝謝院長。我想麻煩行政院院長及經濟部長上臺。"],["主席：再請卓院長、經濟部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長好、部長好，午安。先在這邊跟院長說明一下，這是第一次跟您在國會上面質詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["吳委員宗憲：您是法律人的前輩……"],["卓院長榮泰：不敢當。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以在這邊也很高興、也很榮幸能夠對院長質詢。我也希望接下來的4年我們可以用一個比較理性、科學的態度去面對所有的問題，讓我們在辯論上面能夠有多元、彼此尊重的方式，來對於一些公共議題進行比較理性的討論，我希望接下來的時間我們都能夠很理性地討論很多事情，不流於一般比較口水的爭辯，我是比較希望這樣。因為一直以來，我覺得公共政策能夠順利執行，其實這是一件非常重要的事，我從小就很喜歡禮運大同篇的說法，對於這個社會，就是「老有所終，壯有所用，幼有所長，矜寡孤獨廢疾者，皆有所養。」所以我們對於社會上的人，不管是老人、年輕人、小孩、弱勢團體都要照顧到，我覺得這才是一個最棒的政府該做的事情。當然這也是我一直以來的想法，只要今天政府的方向是朝這個方向，即使不同政黨，我們也是全力支持，這是我個人的想法。","我想擔任過民進黨主席又擔任院長的人其實不多，您一直以來都有一個大師兄的稱號，早期說是謝系大師兄，後來是民進黨大師兄，其實我是期待將來您能夠變成全民的大師兄，就是一個真正照顧我們全臺灣人民的大師兄，這是我一直希望的，也就是將來可以朝這個方向來邁進。","其實這段時間，我是希望行政院還是能夠恪守行政中立的概念，最近大家比較有衝突的大概就是國會方面的問題，當然我也是尊重行政院的一些想法，但是我也希望行政院儘量不要說寧可跟國會對抗、衝撞……"],["卓院長榮泰：絕對沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：也不溝通，或是要求多數要服從少數，我是希望不要這樣子，其實從這次國會改革的狀況來看，不管從民調的數字來看，或是立法院內表決的結論來看，其實跟行政院所認定的都有一些出入，在世界上大部分的民主國家，其實國會有相關的權限，它是一個正常的運作，反而沒有的話，是變成一個比較畸形的國會。所以我們一直希望把臺灣的國會朝向一個正常民主國家國會的方向去走，讓立法權能夠有效地監督行政權，其實這次國會改革，我們的理想是這樣，並不是要去造成一些衝撞。更何況其實今天在座有很多部會首長當年在當立委的時候，他們也有相同的提案，我自己在擬草案的時候也參考了這邊非常多前輩的提案。所以我還是希望行政院在運作上面能夠秉持著行政中立，然後大家一起來為這個國家做一點事情。","以上只是因為第一次跟您見面，所以提了一些開場。","接下來，我想請教一些問題，從小問題到大問題跟您請教一下。第一個，我想跟您請教的部分，民進黨執政這9年其實有一些房價暴漲或者是物價通膨問題，蔡政府執政的這段時間裡面，最被大家詬病的幾個問題大概就是，第一個，高房價，不管是年輕人或中老年人，其實都為高房價所煩惱，我自己也是在臺北租房子住，我也買不起臺北的房子！另外還有社會住宅蓋不夠。針對這些問題，一直以來政府說要打房，我想請教一下院長，請問一下現在房價到底是往上還是往下？"],["卓院長榮泰：每個地區、每個區域有不同的環境因素……"],["吳委員宗憲：那以全臺灣……"],["卓院長榮泰：開發比較快的幾個地區，比方說科技園區的周遭，漲的速度確實超乎大家的意料之外。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們不去論特定的小區，因為您現在是行政院院長，管理的是全國嘛，我想請教一下，全國目前的房價是往上還是往下？"],["卓院長榮泰：整體來講，土地的資源有限，在人民對土地需求的過程當中，要房價明顯的往下降，除非是有很重大的社會因素，甚至一個動盪的因素，否則是比較少見到這樣子。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。我現在給您看一個相關的資料，我們從這個數據上面來看，其實這幾年漲幅非常高，以臺北市來說，臺北市現在新建案的單價已經直逼120萬，這個價格其實是非常驚人，我想院長一定也認同啦！而且這個較4年前的漲幅是增加30%，每坪貴了30萬；像臺南跟高雄，因為他們有一些科技業話題的加持，所以像橋頭、楠梓這些地方甚至漲到五成以上，這個其實很驚人！","以現在大部分的人來說，你也知道，我們現在臺灣的薪資所得中位數只有50萬上下而已，這個中位數是50%的人的薪資所得中位數，每年差不多只有50萬上下，但是他必須面對，不管是臺北市或是任何一個鄉下地方的房價，其實都是高不可攀！這個會造成非常多人的生活品質受影響，或是他對於未來沒有希望，我想高房價是一個很大的問題！甚至也有很多人說，即使現在是年薪百萬的人，買房子也幾乎是不可能的事，尤其以臺北市來說，你看我們剛剛講的，一坪單價到120萬，假設我年薪百萬、扣掉正常的支出，其實我要買房子也幾乎是一件不可能的事！","所以我想請教一下，民進黨政府這段時間最引以為傲的住房政策會不會變成是炒房的元凶啊？想請問一下院長，您知道民進黨的什麼政策反而推升了現在房價往上飆？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我應該很清楚委員講的是什麼政策，但是從土地資源的有限以及建築成本的增加，有關房價的高漲，這個是政府已經早就看到，所以我們推出百萬社會住宅這樣一個政策，我們也實施利息的補貼、租金的補貼。至於您所說的，大概就是最近在討論的新青安利息補貼，這個部分我們內部的討論也經過大家的思考，是不是要做一些怎麼樣的政策調整，讓它不要成為房價上漲……其實房價上漲是千百個理由啦，它可能是其中一項，但是如果可能，我們就善用這樣的工具，讓它能夠合理地真正幫助到需要的人，而不是在市場上轉售、轉手，造成第二次不公平，這個我們從制度上來檢討！"],["吳委員宗憲：是。也許民進黨當初為了一些年輕人的選票推出了這個新青安政策，也不是說完全沒有道理，但是上有政策、下有對策，就有人會去鑽這些政策的漏洞，所以這個一定需要行政院去把它補起來。這一段時間有一些年輕人很勇敢地去買房，但是也有一些人用人頭去貸款、去買來租別人，或是做一些其他經濟上面的運作，所以這個部分你們還是一定要把它處理好。","其實我們從歷史來看，美國、日本都曾經因為房貸的問題引起過金融危機，我是不希望這一塊發生在臺灣，尤其我們這邊的經濟實力有沒有那麼強，可以去應付一波很嚴重的金融風暴，這是我比較擔心的地方，因為你也知道現在臺灣的貧富差距其實也不小。我剛剛提的薪資中位，為什麼我一直要談這句話？因為太多人、太多政治人物喜歡講薪資平均數，我覺得那個平均數是騙人的，要看是要看薪資的中位數，所有念過統計學的人都懂，所以以現在全民的薪資中位數來看，人民其實是辛苦的，相較於物價、相較於房價，我想麻煩院長你要注意這個部分。","我也跟您報告，這個新青安房貸現在在五大銀行裡面，將近四成的房貸都是新青安，那這個會不會造成另外一個風險？是不是會造成房價的推升？也是要麻煩你們研究一下。我是不是可以要求院長這邊做一個全面住宅政策的規劃？就是朝向讓人民買得起房子，還是你要把強化社會宅的速度增快？下一次總質詢之前能不能給我們一個比較明確的方向？因為我必須跟各位報告，房地合一2.0或者是百萬社會宅或是新青安，這個其實邏輯上有一點衝突，有的是叫你租、有的是叫你買，邏輯上有一點小衝突啦！當然你可能是針對不同族群提供不同的政策，但是我比較希望看可不可以在下一次總質詢前提出一個比較明確的方向，讓我們知道一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員……"],["吳委員宗憲：那個方向是包括把一些現有發現的漏洞補起來。"],["卓院長榮泰：包括新青安這個政策，其原意當然是好的，執行也有一定的成效，只是現在的過程當中被一些有心的、錯用的後來的發展，也已經請內政部相關的金融單位全面檢查這件事情當中，至於新的社宅政策，內政部也有一些新的構想，我們會逐步的把它跟社會說明，過程當中也希望委員能夠多多指教。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝院長，就是下一次質詢前能夠給我們一個比較明確的作法，這樣我們才可以依循嘛！就知道接下來要怎麼做。","另外我想請教一下，除了房價之外，其實大家更思考的就是物價的問題，因為CPI最近的漲幅很高，我們去看主計處在2月下旬時本來是預計上漲1.85%，結果後來因為電價調漲的方案一出爐，它後來預測是到2.03%，結果今年6月6號它發布5月的物價調查，發現竟然高達2.24%，其實這個已經突破2%的通膨警戒線。","我覺得不管是在全世界哪裡，通膨其實都是大家害怕的一個怪獸，我們的薪資沒有漲的情況下，通膨一直漲，等於是民眾的實質購買力都下降，實質薪資所得也是下降的，這樣對國人的傷害其實是不小啦！本席之前在國是論壇的時候其實有提到，因為當時在講電價到底要不要漲，當然電價牽動到我國的能源政策，那時候我就有提到，現在電價調漲的話，一定是萬物齊漲，這個都連想都不用想，一定會造成萬物齊漲，說不會漲那個都是騙人的！甚至前面的政府對外面說影響不大，電費調漲也不大，對你們都不會有影響，這個也是騙人的嘛！因為雖然我家的家用電沒有調漲，問題是我買的每一個產品其整個供應鏈的電費都調漲了，我家沒有漲，但物價還是會漲啊！所以這樣子跟人民說沒有影響，我覺得講這句話有點不負責任，當然這跟院長無關啦！但我一直認為不應該這麼對外說，因為一個負責任的政府應該是一個有誠信的政府，做對、做錯都要承認，我自己對我個人的要求是我做錯事，我就認錯，我會很快跟人家道歉，我也希望將來我面對的政府是這樣子。","我再請教院長，我們提到物價飆漲的部分，院長你知不知道現在一顆蛋在外面售價多少錢？就是小吃店售價多少錢，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：10塊到15塊。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，現在其實差不多15塊，院長真的是蠻瞭解的，但是生雞蛋的產地價其實一斤跌到二十幾塊，所以這裡發生了一個問題，就是我在小吃店買一顆蛋，它的價格幾乎等於是生產地的半斤價格了。我自己觀察，我覺得這個跟院長無關啦！我是個人自己研究，我覺得是跟前任的農業部陳吉仲部長比較有關聯性，因為他的農業政策是補貼，他的農業政策不是做產銷的調控，反正他出什麼事……這跟院長沒關係，這不是你的論點，這是我的論點，我認為我每次看到他，就是補貼、補貼、補貼，哪裡出包就哪裡補貼，他從來不是做產銷的調控，也不是做長期的農糧政策規劃，所以搞到現在，反正出了事情撒錢就好了，但他沒有想到很多東西起來之後物價是回不去的，現在就變成是我剛剛講的，小吃店一顆蛋15塊，結果它相當於可以買產地的半斤。從產地生產之後，一路銷售到小吃店，加上成本什麼的，其實我覺得應該不是這麼高，更何況現在雞蛋價已經跌到成本價以下，所以很多人寧願把雞蛋拿去餵豬、拿去丟掉，也不願意拿出來賣，所以這是一個問題啦！請問一下，你們現在對於這些通膨、物價，穩定物價小組到底還有沒有實際在運作？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然有，這是很重要的一環啦！我們看到CPI雖然到2.43%左右，超過了大家心裡……"],["吳委員宗憲：其實蠻高的。"],["卓院長榮泰：比較安心的2%，這個數字已經超越了，但是我們一直在嚴密地監控當中，這可能也有季節性的因素。至於剛剛委員提到農業對農民的補助，我覺得部長有一句名言，叫做農民不是補助……我請部長再說一次。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，其實農業對農民來講，它是一個專業而且要被尊敬的產業，它不是靠補助而過活的一個產業，所以未來農業的部分，我想我們會真正的從整個產業的轉型跟升級來提高農民的所得。"],["吳委員宗憲：OK，這樣就麻煩你們再多注意一下，尤其是儘量不要再有什麼班班吃石斑的那種日子再現啦！因為不能把小朋友或軍人拿來當作消耗這些農產品的這些人嘛！這樣子是不太對的。我為什麼問這個問題？因為這個小組的官網，它最新版的資料還是在113年4月30號下午4點30分由鄭副院長所主持的會議，所以這個部分我在想是不是都沒有在運作，可能麻煩你們再稍微注意一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["吳委員宗憲：也要注意一下通膨的問題啦！","請部長先回座。接下來麻煩請交通部長及國防部長。"],["主席：麻煩交通部、國防部長兩位部長備詢。"],["吳委員宗憲：接下來我想請教一下一個問題，大概就是這幾天比較熱門的一個小問題，也不是小問題，大問題啦！有一位中國籍的阮姓男子，他駕船跑到淡水河口，待了51分鐘都沒有被發現，我覺得這個跟民進黨的主軸「抗中保臺」其實有一點點衝突耶！因為你既然要抗中保臺，那你就要強化我們的防守能力啊！若你在有強化防守能力的情況下，怎麼會讓一艘船跑到淡水河口51分鐘卻沒有被發現？因為這個是電影裡面才會出現的情節，雖然有懲處，請問一下有沒有什麼新的措施？將來要怎麼預防這種事情？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們原來已經啟動了司法的行政調查，海委會也全部在啟動，已經做了處置了，至於後面，它可能需要一些人力、裝備上面的更新，這個都持續要做，短期間的部分我請管主委來說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：處置的部分我沒有意見，處置我都尊重行政機關的作法。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，事實上各國的Coast Guard都面對同樣的挑戰，我們當然會要求我們的海巡同仁要零漏接，但是零漏接是非常大的挑戰，以韓國來講，在韓國的泰安港也是有中國的一艘小艇載了6個人，結果在泰安港上岸了以後，第五天才逮捕到第一個人。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，你不能以國外……"],["管主任委員碧玲：當然這次的漏接是人為的疏失，我們真的是完全不容許，但是我跟委員報告……"],["吳委員宗憲：好啦，不要拿國外做不好的來講嘛，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我主要是要跟委員報告，第一個，我們在談這件事情的時候，請委員也共同給我們的海巡一個支持的力量，他們仍然是我們的捍衛英雄。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，主委，不要拿這個來這樣講，我不接受，如果你要講那個……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒關係，我要說明的是新的措施。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講啦，我昨天還在立法院裡面幫警消、海巡在那邊爭取他們的所得替代率，我怎麼會不愛他們？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們很瞭解。"],["吳委員宗憲：對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，因為我很需要說明這一點，請大家放心，因為必須請大家放心，這是一個非常值得信賴的捍衛海疆的部隊。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這是安定民心一個非常重要的心理基礎。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝主委，沒關係，主委，這個部分我提一個想法啦，因為這個部分我覺得是不是它有在辨識上面的一些問題，對不對？我想主委一定很熟嘛。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，所以我們很希望在辨識上有新的措施。"],["吳委員宗憲：目前交通部對於這個部分，法規是規定只有20總噸以上的船才需要裝設AIS系統，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，AIS。"],["吳委員宗憲：現在我有幾個想法，我不知道你們將來有沒有這個政策，如果這個狀況發生的話，將來20總噸以下的小漁船，要不要用修法的方式，也要求他們要去裝這個AIS的辨識系統？"],["卓院長榮泰：海委會有提出這樣的想法，就是AIS熱像儀，如果能夠裝置在小的漁船上面的話，這次的事件或許就可以察覺得出來它並非我們自己的船舶，所以針對這一點，海委會已經提出它的檢討說明，現在就是我們後續的預算要怎麼來達到這個目的，但是我承諾海委會，我們儘快來想辦法，讓這個國安事件所牽扯到的因素能夠把它降低下來。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。"],["管主任委員碧玲：有關20噸以下的小船要裝攜帶式AIS這一點，即使是在救生、救難來講，譬如我們的海巡弟兄接到報案，說有一艘我們家的波特船失聯了，然後我們要去救的時候不知道它在哪裡，茫茫的大海，我們要救一艘家屬報案失聯的波特船時，我們海巡弟兄都非常的希望，如果我們這些小船出去的時候都能有一個攜帶式的AIS在船上的話，我們很快就可以救到它了。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以你們有這個計畫嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：尤其是在這一次之後，我們很高興的是，跨部會的各個部門都認為這是一個必須立刻、急迫性來研究的課題。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以請問一下，你們有這個計畫嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們正在研究這個課題，已經有相當的共識，但是還沒有最後的final。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長……"],["卓院長榮泰：請農業部說明。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，20噸以下的漁船大概有九千多艘，然後還有一些是裝馬達的漁筏，叫CTR的部分，也有九千多艘，農業部之前就已經開始補助這些移動式或是固定式的AIS，現在的裝載率大概是20%，我們也跟海委會做一些通盤的檢討。從國安的角度來講，應該要讓每艘漁船都裝，這樣辨識度會比較高，我們會朝這個目標來努力。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我也是覺得要避免再有這個狀況發生，其實是可以思考這些小船是不是也要強制他們裝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：第二個，我思考到，既然一艘船可以跑進來……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們第一時間就開會討論了這個課題。"],["吳委員宗憲：既然一艘船可以跑進來，那毒品的走私或槍枝的走私，也變得相對簡單，它這艘船要進來不難。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，放心！我們才剛宣布了兩個大案，才今年而已，一個案我們緝獲了982公斤，另外一個案緝獲了八百九十幾公斤，這個詳細的數字我沒有記得很清楚。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，這個……"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是……"],["吳委員宗憲：這不重要。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我再跟委員報告，就在月底，連國外都會一起來肯定我們的緝毒能力，我們還會有新的成績。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講啦，主委，我們今天不是談緝毒，我當檢察官時還拿過全國緝毒獎啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：不要把這件事……"],["吳委員宗憲：好了啦，緝毒不要在這邊講好不好？主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：不要把這件事跳躍成毒品槍枝會查緝不力，不會的。"],["吳委員宗憲：主委，你也當過立委，你就不要再講了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：不會的、不會的。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們現在談另外一個問題，既然你們剛剛說AIS系統我們可能要強制小船裝設，那還有另外一個問題是我們要注意的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們在研究中。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為最近有一些狀況發生，就是有一些船他們裝的是在大陸那邊生產的AIS系統，結果他們開了以後，MMIS碼就變成是大陸的辨識碼出來，這個有時候會讓海巡去誤判嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個對海巡來講是很重要的一個問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，所以說這個東西變成要法規去強制……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們希望能夠納管。"],["吳委員宗憲：法規去強制說不可以這樣做。好，這個部分可能再麻煩你們瞭解一下這幾個問題，第一個，小船到底要不要裝；第二個，裝了以後，它是不是能夠辨識為臺灣的船隻，而不是每一次都以為是大陸的船隻靠近，這部分再麻煩你們。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告一件事情，這一次我們在6浬就發現這艘船，這是確實的，所以我們的監控系統是看得到它的，但是海委會認為這是一個人為上的疏失、判定上的疏失，所以我們要跟臺灣國人講的是，以後請海委會如何去斷絕這種人為上的疏失，加緊訓練、加緊他的警覺性。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，問題出來了就麻煩解決，謝謝。","接下來我再請教一個問題，院長，您知不知道2022年漢光38號軍演它的主要目的是哪個部分？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["顧部長立雄：2022年還是2024年？"],["吳委員宗憲：就是漢光38號，沒關係，那我……"],["顧部長立雄：今年是40號，您講的是38號……"],["吳委員宗憲：OK，沒關係，它主要的假設是中國用氣墊艇從淡水河口進入我們國家的政經中樞，因為參酌到這一次發生的事情，我想請問國防部這邊將來會不會有什麼因應的作法？因為如果這些氣墊船全數衝到大稻埕碼頭的話，我們如果從淡水河口來算，大概15分鐘左右就會衝到了。我當然有看到報紙報導說有一個作法，就是把關渡大橋炸掉來讓氣墊船無法進來，這也是其中一項作法，這沒有問題，但是如果將來有類似像這種用小船、快艇進來的時候，也許在防堵上面就會有一些問題。我想請問一下，目前是不是有什麼特殊部隊要進駐？在不違反國防機密的情況下，我想請教你，目前有沒有什麼部隊進駐的計畫？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明，但是有關關鍵機密的還是不宜多講。"],["吳委員宗憲：當然，對，我已經講了，我說這個就不用跟我說。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們要區分出所謂灰色地帶的襲擾跟真正從事軍事侵略行動兩個作為是不一樣的，所以如果你講的是它整個氣墊船從淡水河口進來的話，這已經進入到軍事侵略的一個階段，這樣子相關部署的作為，包括我們的海軍、包括我們相關的這些雷達系統，情監偵都會啟動，在淡水河口相關的布置，都會有適切的兵火力，然後會編組戰略部隊來應處這樣的狀況，但是詳細的部署，我想我不宜在這邊跟……"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，我想這一塊我將來再跟您請教，有一些東西也許公開場合也不適合去提，甚至私下也不適合告訴我，這我都可以理解。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：我再請教一下院長，最近大家常常說第五縱隊……主委可以先回去了。第五縱隊這個，甚至有官員也都出來去附和這一句話，我想請問一下，如果照大家所說的，臺灣有10萬個第五縱隊的人數，這個不是一個很荒謬的事嗎？10萬人你運作要多少經費啊！院長，你怎麼會……","底下的官員有的還附和民視和三立的這個報導，然後它內文還寫到說，熟稔兩岸情勢的官員透露出10萬人的這件事情。我覺得這個是不是有一個狀況，要嘛你就叫我們的國安局或誰去把這些人弄出來、抓出來嘛！要嘛你就應該叫NCC去管好這些媒體不要亂報嘛！你之前在當主席的時候，其實你也有提過一個東西，你說如果NCC無法加強管理就要換個人，甚至改變體制。今天發生這個狀況，說我們第五縱隊有10萬人，你底下的官員還去跟人家附和這句話，結果你人也不抓，10萬人你總抓個500人出來嘛！人也不抓，然後NCC也不管，我實在不知道這個跟你當初的想法怎麼會差距那麼遠？我覺得包括像NCC對王義川，他這次提到的手機監控這件事，NCC要做行政調查，說真的我也完全對NCC沒有任何信任度了，也不期待。但是我希望一件事，如果照院長您之前當黨主席時候說的NCC管不好那就換人，甚至改變體制，也請院長能夠支持我們這次對於NCC組織法的修正。","最後請外交部長。"],["主席：請外交部長備詢。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想請問一下外交部長跟國防部長，兩位當初在國會改革法案的時候，是不是也有提過爭取聽證權、調查權，跟罰鍰還有刑則的設計？回答是或不是就可以。"],["主席：時間打岔……"],["顧部長立雄：我想內容是不一樣的。"],["吳委員宗憲：是有，只是你認為不一樣！"],["顧部長立雄：不一樣。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，因為條文我大概都是跟各位的差不多，好，謝謝各位。"],["主席：吳宗憲委員，因為外交部部長請假，現在是田次長。好，如果您有什麼書面資料的話……","謝謝吳宗憲委員質詢、謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢。非常謝謝卓院長、鄭副院長及各部會首長列席答詢。6月18日（星期二）上午9時繼續開會，進行施政方針報告之質詢，現在休息。","休息（17時36分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","黃捷","廖先翔","陳冠廷","許宇甄","吳宗憲"],"page_start":29,"meetingDate":["2024-06-14"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00002","1135701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1135701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.67096875,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.387843750000002,"end":14.914718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.015968750000003,"end":17.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.37284375,"end":26.406593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.406593750000003,"end":26.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.59221875,"end":26.929718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.929718750000003,"end":26.980343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.980343750000003,"end":27.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.18659375,"end":36.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.48096875,"end":37.594718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.712843750000005,"end":40.244093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.564718750000004,"end":48.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.27221875,"end":50.993468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.29284375,"end":55.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.971593750000004,"end":59.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.61659375000001,"end":60.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.25346875,"end":65.70846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.87721875,"end":69.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.50534375000001,"end":71.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.96909375,"end":74.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.44971875,"end":77.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.62221875,"end":79.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.84971875000001,"end":81.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.31346875,"end":84.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.18221875,"end":88.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.53596875000001,"end":90.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.17284375000001,"end":94.56471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.25659375000001,"end":99.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.96471875,"end":102.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.03596875000001,"end":106.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.69784375,"end":108.31784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.50346875000001,"end":109.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.61721875,"end":114.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.30846875,"end":116.48534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.99159375,"end":120.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.87284375,"end":123.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.64034375000001,"end":125.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.10409375,"end":127.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.12909375,"end":128.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.15846875,"end":131.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.92596875,"end":145.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.57784375,"end":150.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.92721875,"end":152.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.41221875000002,"end":155.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.07409375,"end":157.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.54221875000002,"end":158.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.80784375000002,"end":166.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.27909375000002,"end":173.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.28221875,"end":184.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.29846875,"end":178.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.77096875,"end":178.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.94721875000002,"end":188.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.08159375000002,"end":189.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.97596875000002,"end":191.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.83221875,"end":192.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.49034375000002,"end":194.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.48159375,"end":198.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.95346875,"end":199.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.21909375,"end":203.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.77971875,"end":210.19221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.25534375,"end":221.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.41409375,"end":222.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.37159375000002,"end":229.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.22721875000002,"end":230.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.57721875000001,"end":233.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.90159375000002,"end":237.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.27221875,"end":239.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.82471875000002,"end":243.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.43159375000002,"end":245.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.67596875,"end":253.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.39221875,"end":254.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.84346875000003,"end":256.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.02034375,"end":258.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.50534375,"end":259.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.93971875,"end":261.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.81284375,"end":265.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.21721875000003,"end":269.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.64284375,"end":273.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.62096875000003,"end":275.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.26221875000005,"end":276.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.59534375000004,"end":279.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.97034375000004,"end":280.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.25721875,"end":287.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.90159375,"end":289.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.89284375,"end":294.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.68534375,"end":297.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.19534375,"end":301.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.11034375,"end":309.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.23971875,"end":311.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.98221875,"end":311.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.99909375000004,"end":312.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.97784375000003,"end":323.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.69471875,"end":317.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.03534375000004,"end":323.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.38971875000004,"end":323.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.18284375,"end":330.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.34221875000003,"end":333.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.97034375000004,"end":334.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.28659375,"end":341.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.64846875,"end":341.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.03659375,"end":346.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.03596875,"end":346.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.22159375,"end":346.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.28909375,"end":346.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.40721875,"end":350.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.21659375,"end":353.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.06846875,"end":356.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.49846875000003,"end":362.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.46784375000004,"end":367.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.39971875000003,"end":370.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.44971875000005,"end":372.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.60971875,"end":397.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.92659375000005,"end":403.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.32221875000005,"end":406.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.02221875000004,"end":407.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.07284375,"end":414.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.44721875000005,"end":417.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.14721875000004,"end":425.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.70284375,"end":428.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.68971875000005,"end":429.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.56284375,"end":432.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.77346875,"end":433.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.02221875000004,"end":436.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.35096875000005,"end":438.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.32096875,"end":444.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.61971875,"end":445.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.27784375000005,"end":450.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.33596875,"end":453.15846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.69846875,"end":455.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.21284375000005,"end":457.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.66409375,"end":461.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.84909375,"end":461.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.86596875000004,"end":465.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.37596875,"end":466.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.45159375000003,"end":469.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.35846875000004,"end":475.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.55159375000005,"end":481.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.01471875000004,"end":486.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.41909375000006,"end":490.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.45221875000004,"end":492.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.93284375,"end":494.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.82284375,"end":497.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.67471875,"end":498.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.15534375000004,"end":505.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.45409375,"end":508.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.66034375000004,"end":514.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.25846875,"end":518.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.19034375,"end":519.4265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.6628437500001,"end":528.2522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.9440937500001,"end":535.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.31846875,"end":545.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.34659375,"end":547.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.2365937500001,"end":563.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.02721875,"end":566.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.3390937500001,"end":571.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.02596875,"end":573.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.5065937500001,"end":574.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.99596875,"end":576.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.6159687500001,"end":577.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.99971875,"end":585.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.09971875,"end":589.6772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.91346875,"end":591.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.90471875,"end":592.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.17034375,"end":594.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.72284375,"end":598.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.67159375,"end":600.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.6628437500001,"end":601.2365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.5065937500001,"end":603.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.27409375,"end":608.5265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.74596875,"end":610.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.7709687500001,"end":614.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.70284375,"end":615.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.2890937500001,"end":617.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.02721875,"end":618.3647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.9384687500001,"end":620.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.3559687500001,"end":623.3428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.4440937500001,"end":623.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.91659375,"end":626.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.88659375,"end":628.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.7765937500001,"end":630.6159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.9365937499999,"end":633.7547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.1765937499999,"end":636.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.7922187500001,"end":639.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.98159375,"end":640.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.40346875,"end":646.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.6809687500001,"end":647.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.1828437500001,"end":648.7397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.1953437500001,"end":656.2322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.58659375,"end":661.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.64909375,"end":662.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.50971875,"end":665.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":665.59784375,"end":675.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":675.28409375,"end":681.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":682.4897187500001,"end":684.1772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":684.31221875,"end":685.6284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":685.8815937500001,"end":694.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.87221875,"end":691.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.9565937500001,"end":692.3447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":694.6228437500001,"end":699.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":699.1284687500001,"end":704.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":700.6809687500001,"end":701.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.78159375,"end":708.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":708.59534375,"end":711.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":711.41346875,"end":711.7847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.2234687499999,"end":712.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.1853437500001,"end":716.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":716.8303437500001,"end":720.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.1884687500001,"end":721.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":721.7409687500001,"end":727.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.7990937500001,"end":728.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":728.5247187500001,"end":729.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":729.7903437500001,"end":735.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":736.15221875,"end":744.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":745.0790937500001,"end":746.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":747.7790937500001,"end":750.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":750.8672187500001,"end":751.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":752.2509687500001,"end":756.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":757.3640937499999,"end":762.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":762.73034375,"end":765.6159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":765.7847187500001,"end":767.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":767.69159375,"end":776.8547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":777.25971875,"end":781.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":781.5459687500002,"end":783.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":783.43596875,"end":791.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":791.58659375,"end":793.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":794.08409375,"end":794.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":795.3328437500002,"end":796.4465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":796.5984687500002,"end":798.2859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":798.7078437500002,"end":806.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":806.20034375,"end":816.3759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":817.13534375,"end":818.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":818.89034375,"end":820.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":820.96596875,"end":825.2522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":825.5559687500001,"end":827.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":827.44596875,"end":829.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":829.55534375,"end":832.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":833.04846875,"end":837.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":837.6553437500002,"end":839.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":839.39346875,"end":840.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":840.38909375,"end":842.9878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":844.75971875,"end":847.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":847.37534375,"end":850.7165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":850.8515937500001,"end":854.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":854.69909375,"end":855.8803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":856.3022187500001,"end":859.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":860.1159687500001,"end":862.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":862.27596875,"end":864.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":864.57096875,"end":868.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":868.92471875,"end":869.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":869.4140937500001,"end":871.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":871.4897187500001,"end":873.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":874.0547187500001,"end":875.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":876.07971875,"end":879.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":880.5515937500002,"end":880.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":881.27721875,"end":884.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":884.7365937500001,"end":889.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":889.56284375,"end":895.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":896.2453437500001,"end":899.4853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":899.85659375,"end":903.5522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":903.9740937500001,"end":910.5047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":910.6397187500002,"end":913.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":914.20034375,"end":922.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":922.5872187500001,"end":923.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":924.0890937500001,"end":924.8484687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":925.45596875,"end":927.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":927.9197187500001,"end":928.5947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":928.69596875,"end":931.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":931.78409375,"end":932.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":932.2734687500001,"end":934.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":935.0578437500001,"end":935.3615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":935.88471875,"end":944.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":944.9297187500001,"end":948.9797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":949.5365937500001,"end":950.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":950.73471875,"end":953.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":953.8059687500001,"end":954.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":955.13909375,"end":957.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":957.6197187500002,"end":960.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":960.20159375,"end":960.2353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":960.9440937500001,"end":982.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":969.5503437500001,"end":970.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":972.82409375,"end":973.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":975.8953437500002,"end":976.1653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":982.99971875,"end":983.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":983.65784375,"end":984.4340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":983.82659375,"end":991.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":992.1628437500001,"end":993.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":994.0022187500001,"end":1004.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1005.1397187500002,"end":1009.5103437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1009.83096875,"end":1018.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1018.26846875,"end":1020.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1021.0190937500001,"end":1027.5328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1028.00534375,"end":1029.1865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1029.2034687500002,"end":1032.1397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1032.5953437500002,"end":1034.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1035.2615937500002,"end":1036.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1036.99971875,"end":1038.3328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1038.83909375,"end":1040.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1041.21846875,"end":1044.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1044.3909687500002,"end":1046.1122187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1046.31471875,"end":1046.7872187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1046.9222187500002,"end":1049.7572187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1050.38159375,"end":1050.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1051.1409687500002,"end":1053.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1053.2503437500002,"end":1058.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1054.7859687500002,"end":1054.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1054.87034375,"end":1056.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1058.07659375,"end":1058.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1058.8528437500001,"end":1058.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1058.92034375,"end":1058.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1058.93721875,"end":1058.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1060.06784375,"end":1062.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1062.05909375,"end":1062.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1062.0759687500001,"end":1062.0928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1062.0928437500002,"end":1062.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1062.73409375,"end":1062.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1062.85221875,"end":1064.0840937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1064.96159375,"end":1074.0740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1074.4622187500001,"end":1074.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1075.3397187500002,"end":1075.7278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1076.6222187500002,"end":1080.2672187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1080.3684687500001,"end":1084.6040937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1085.39721875,"end":1086.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1087.1690937500002,"end":1088.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1088.33346875,"end":1091.6409687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1092.2315937500002,"end":1094.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1095.08346875,"end":1097.8509687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1098.8465937500002,"end":1111.0472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1111.36784375,"end":1113.7472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1114.0003437500002,"end":1114.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1115.04659375,"end":1116.9703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1116.9703437500002,"end":1118.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1118.7928437500002,"end":1133.8453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1134.4022187500002,"end":1136.5284687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1135.14471875,"end":1136.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1136.5284687500002,"end":1137.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1136.57909375,"end":1139.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1138.8740937500002,"end":1140.5615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1141.1353437500002,"end":1172.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1148.6278437500002,"end":1149.0159687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1164.01784375,"end":1167.0215937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1171.0715937500001,"end":1174.7840937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1174.5984687500002,"end":1185.7022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1182.69846875,"end":1190.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1186.4109687500002,"end":1190.3934687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1191.01784375,"end":1199.1009687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1195.65846875,"end":1198.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1199.1009687500002,"end":1199.1178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1199.2528437500002,"end":1215.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1205.34471875,"end":1205.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1211.92596875,"end":1221.1565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1221.5784687500002,"end":1222.7090937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1223.4009687500002,"end":1230.0328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1228.0753437500002,"end":1228.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1228.6322187500002,"end":1233.3740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1230.38721875,"end":1240.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1240.5290937500001,"end":1241.1534687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1241.3897187500002,"end":1244.4609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1244.73096875,"end":1256.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1256.7628437500002,"end":1261.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1262.55096875,"end":1267.2759687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1267.74846875,"end":1274.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1274.7347187500002,"end":1278.8184687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1278.9197187500001,"end":1279.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1280.16846875,"end":1285.0115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1285.07909375,"end":1289.0953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1289.5340937500002,"end":1339.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1325.57909375,"end":1325.9165937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1326.3553437500002,"end":1327.9247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1338.37034375,"end":1341.1040937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1340.6653437500001,"end":1347.1453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1345.0697187500002,"end":1346.0147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1346.0653437500002,"end":1346.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1346.7065937500001,"end":1356.1565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1356.5447187500001,"end":1365.8765937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1366.3997187500001,"end":1382.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1382.7684687500002,"end":1401.1622187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1390.83471875,"end":1393.2815937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1398.69846875,"end":1418.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1416.6028437500001,"end":1417.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1417.0247187500001,"end":1417.7503437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1417.7503437500002,"end":1417.7672187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1418.67846875,"end":1419.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1419.48846875,"end":1419.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1420.34909375,"end":1435.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1427.53784375,"end":1443.1978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1435.0303437500002,"end":1448.3953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1448.8340937500002,"end":1456.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1451.98971875,"end":1453.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1457.5415937500002,"end":1472.2228437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1472.0372187500002,"end":1479.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1473.0328437500002,"end":1473.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1474.1128437500001,"end":1490.1947187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1479.1753437500001,"end":1479.1922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1490.81909375,"end":1497.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1497.97409375,"end":1504.2347187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1504.5047187500002,"end":1516.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1514.86596875,"end":1515.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1516.0303437500002,"end":1522.2403437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1523.2190937500002,"end":1526.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1526.8978437500002,"end":1527.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1527.64034375,"end":1533.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1534.13721875,"end":1534.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1535.79096875,"end":1537.0228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1537.0228437500002,"end":1537.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1537.36034375,"end":1537.4109687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1537.8497187500002,"end":1539.9590937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1539.7059687500002,"end":1540.1447187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1540.29659375,"end":1540.9547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1540.44846875,"end":1541.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1542.7265937500001,"end":1543.5703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1542.9459687500002,"end":1543.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1543.5703437500001,"end":1545.1565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1545.1565937500002,"end":1545.1734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1545.6965937500001,"end":1545.7303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1545.7303437500002,"end":1547.2659687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1545.7472187500002,"end":1547.4178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1547.2659687500002,"end":1547.2828437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1547.8565937500002,"end":1551.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1551.7547187500002,"end":1552.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1553.3240937500002,"end":1554.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1555.1465937500002,"end":1556.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1557.4415937500003,"end":1562.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1562.1665937500002,"end":1565.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1565.4572187500003,"end":1566.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1566.3684687500001,"end":1570.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1571.0597187500002,"end":1574.5359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1574.62034375,"end":1579.0922187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1579.53096875,"end":1582.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1582.93971875,"end":1599.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1599.7134687500002,"end":1603.6790937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1604.2022187500002,"end":1611.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1611.8465937500002,"end":1620.8240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1618.1747187500002,"end":1618.3097187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1620.9253437500001,"end":1622.6634687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1621.8197187500002,"end":1622.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1622.9503437500002,"end":1623.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1623.84471875,"end":1630.1222187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1627.7428437500002,"end":1627.9959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1628.0297187500003,"end":1628.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1630.45971875,"end":1640.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1641.15846875,"end":1643.3522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1644.1622187500002,"end":1645.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1646.0015937500002,"end":1648.4147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1648.8365937500002,"end":1650.3890937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1650.7434687500001,"end":1657.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1658.1178437500002,"end":1666.1165937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1666.31909375,"end":1666.5215937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1666.5215937500002,"end":1666.5722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1666.5722187500003,"end":1666.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1666.87596875,"end":1666.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1666.9097187500001,"end":1668.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1668.0234687500001,"end":1671.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1668.2597187500003,"end":1669.6097187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1671.8203437500001,"end":1680.0215937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1677.3047187500001,"end":1677.7265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1680.51096875,"end":1681.1690937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1681.65846875,"end":1683.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1684.0715937500001,"end":1684.6453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1685.5228437500002,"end":1689.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1689.9609687500001,"end":1691.1422187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1691.49659375,"end":1695.0740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1695.3778437500002,"end":1698.7190937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1698.9890937500002,"end":1699.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1700.22096875,"end":1701.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1701.6384687500001,"end":1702.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1703.4778437500001,"end":1709.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1711.02096875,"end":1720.9265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1721.2640937500003,"end":1723.2384687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1723.42409375,"end":1724.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1724.6053437500002,"end":1726.8497187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1727.6597187500001,"end":1729.1447187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1729.6509687500002,"end":1730.2584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1730.6128437500001,"end":1738.4934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1738.9659687500002,"end":1739.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1739.9278437500002,"end":1741.9528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1742.0878437500003,"end":1743.4040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1743.7078437500002,"end":1751.4365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1751.8584687500002,"end":1766.5565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1766.9784687500003,"end":1767.4678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1767.7547187500002,"end":1771.1972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1771.7034687500002,"end":1777.2047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1777.4578437500002,"end":1785.3890937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1785.84471875,"end":1788.1228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1788.5615937500002,"end":1789.8440937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1790.1309687500002,"end":1792.8478437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1793.0672187500002,"end":1796.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1797.2184687500003,"end":1798.2815937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1799.19284375,"end":1800.9478437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1801.5047187500002,"end":1803.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1804.6097187500002,"end":1809.3009687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1806.7190937500002,"end":1808.0184687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1810.04346875,"end":1812.2540937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1812.5409687500003,"end":1824.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1824.0328437500002,"end":1825.7203437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1826.20971875,"end":1832.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1828.4878437500001,"end":1828.5215937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1828.60596875,"end":1828.8253437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1829.3990937500002,"end":1829.8378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1832.3690937500003,"end":1835.3728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1834.6978437500002,"end":1835.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1835.9465937500001,"end":1843.7428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1844.0297187500003,"end":1847.2190937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1848.13034375,"end":1851.9778437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.7,"end":10.021,"text":"再請卓院長經濟部備選吳委員好"},{"start":31.557,"end":59.031,"text":"院長好部長好吳安先在這邊跟院長說明一下就是說這是第一次跟您在國會上面質詢是的您是法律人的前輩所以在這邊也很高興也很榮幸能夠在這邊能夠對院長質詢那我也希望說接下來的4年我們可以用一個比較理性、科學的態度"},{"start":59.677,"end":60.506,"text":"去面對所有的問題"},{"start":61.314,"end":89.801,"text":"那我們在辯論上面能夠有多元那彼此尊重的方式來對一些公共議題能夠比較理性的討論希望說接下來的時間我們都能夠這樣子能夠很理性的討論很多事情不流於說一般比較口水的那個爭辯我是比較希望這樣因為我一直以來我覺得就是公共政策他能夠順利執行其實這是一個非常重要那我從小我就一直覺得"},{"start":91.221,"end":116.348,"text":"我很喜歡李韻大同篇的那個說法就是對於這個社會就是勞有所終、壯有所用、幼有所長、關寡孤獨、廢棄者皆有所養。所以說我們對於這個社會上面的人不管是老人、年輕人、小孩、弱勢團體都要照顧到。我覺得這才是一個最棒的一個政府該做的事情。當然這也是我一直以來我的想法。"},{"start":117.068,"end":126.735,"text":"那只要今天政府做的方向是朝這個方向去即使不同政黨我們也是全力支持這是我個人的一個想法那我想說"},{"start":128.388,"end":156.533,"text":"在這一段時間其實擔任過民進黨主席又擔任院長的人其實不多那您一直以來有一個就是大師兄的稱號早期是說是謝系大師兄後來是民進黨大師兄其實我是期待將來您變成是全民的大師兄就是一個真正照顧我們全台灣人民的一個大師兄這是我一直希望說將來可以這樣子朝這個方向去邁進那其實這一段"},{"start":157.665,"end":157.865,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲"},{"start":180.199,"end":180.219,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":200.267,"end":229.439,"text":"而行政院所認定的其實都是有一些出路那在世界上的大部分的民主國家其實國會有相關的權限他是一個正常的運作那反而是沒有的話是變成一個比較畸形的國會所以其實我們是一直希望說把台灣的國會朝向一個正常的民主國家國會方向去走讓那個立法權能夠有效的監督行政權其實這次國會改革我們的理想是這樣子並不是說"},{"start":230.589,"end":230.609,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":246.758,"end":260.644,"text":"行政院在運作上面能夠秉持的行政中立然後大家一起來為這個國家做一點事情以上只是說第一次跟您見面提了一些開場接下來我想說請教一些問題"},{"start":262.145,"end":278.833,"text":"小問題到大問題,一些跟您請教一下。第一個我想跟您請教的部分大概就是,其實民進黨執政這9年,其實有一些房價暴漲或者是物價通膨的一些問題。"},{"start":280.407,"end":309.518,"text":"那蔡政府呢,她執政的這段時間裡面,其實最被大家詬病的幾個問題大概就是第一個,高房價。不管是年輕人或中老年人,其實都會高房價所煩惱。我自己也是在台北租房子,住好我也買不起台北的房子。那還有社會住宅蓋不夠,所以這些問題一直以來政府說要打房。然後我想請教一下院長,請問一下現在房價到底是往上還是往下?"},{"start":312.081,"end":323.152,"text":"每個地區每個區域它有不同的環境因素那以像台灣比較快的幾個地區比如說科技園區的周遭那漲的速度確實是超乎大家的意料之外"},{"start":324.369,"end":344.168,"text":"我們不去論特定的小區因為您現在是行政院院長主管理是全國嘛那我想請教一下全國目前房價是往上還是往下?整體來講土地的資源有限在做人民對土地的需求的過程當中房價要它明顯的往下降除非是有很重大的社會因素"},{"start":344.668,"end":370.277,"text":"甚至一個動盪的因素,否則是比較少見到這樣。好,那我現在給您看一個相關的資料。其實呢,我們從這個數據上面來看,其實這幾年漲幅非常高。那以台北市來說好了,台北市現在新建案的單價已經直逼120萬。那這個價格其實是非常驚人,我想院長一定也認同啦。而且這個較4年前的漲幅是增加30%。"},{"start":373.666,"end":397.277,"text":"那美萍就說貴了30萬那像台南跟高雄因為他們有一些科技業的話題的加持所以像橋頭、楠梓這些地方甚至漲到五成以上所以這個其實很驚人那以現在大部分的人其實他你也知道我們現在台灣的薪資所得的中位數只有50萬上下而已"},{"start":397.981,"end":422.723,"text":"那相對這個中位數是50%的人的薪資所得的中位數只有到每年差不多50萬上下但是他必須面對不管是台北市或是任何一個鄉下地方的房價其實這都是高不可攀啦但是這個會造成非常多人他生活品質受影響或是他對於未來沒有希望我想高房價是一個很大的一個問題啦"},{"start":423.988,"end":443.838,"text":"甚至有很多人說,即使現在年薪百萬的人買房子也幾乎是不可能的事,尤其以台北市來說。你看我們剛剛講的一坪單價到120萬,假設我年薪百萬扣掉正常的支出,其實我要買房子也是幾乎是一件不可能的事。"},{"start":444.693,"end":460.898,"text":"所以我想請教一下民進黨政府這段時間最引以為傲的住房政策,會不會變成是炒房的一個元兇?所以想請問一下院長,您知道民進黨的什麼政策反而推升了現在房價往上飆?"},{"start":462.112,"end":484.913,"text":"謝謝委員我應該很清楚委員講的是什麼政策但是我是說從土地資源的有限以及建築成本的增加房價的高漲這個是政府已經早就看到所以我們推出社會住宅我們推出百萬社會住宅的這樣的一個政策我們也從利息的補貼租金的補貼那您所說的大概就是現在最近在討論的這個"},{"start":486.634,"end":498.432,"text":"新青安的立即補貼那這個部分呢我們已經在內部的討論也經過大家的一個思考那是不是要做一些怎麼樣的政策的調整讓他不要成為"},{"start":500.199,"end":505.881,"text":"當然就是說也許民進黨當初他為了一些年輕人的選票他推出了這個新清安政策也不是說完全沒有道理但是呢"},{"start":529.488,"end":551.053,"text":"上有政策下有對策嘛就有人會去鑽這些政策的漏洞所以這個一定需要行政院去把它補起來那這一段時間呢有一些年輕人很勇敢的去買房但是也有一些人他用人頭去貸款去買來租別人或是做一些其他的經濟上面的運作嘛所以這個部分可能你們還是要一定要把它處理好齁"},{"start":551.755,"end":573.448,"text":"因為其實我們看從歷史來看美國日本他都曾經因為房貸的問題引起過金融危機我是不希望說這一塊發生在台灣尤其是我們這邊的經濟實力有沒有那麼強可以去應付到一波很嚴重的金融風暴這是我比較擔心的地方因為現在你也知道台灣的貧富差距其實也不小"},{"start":575.131,"end":603.471,"text":"也不曉所以說我剛提的新知中位數因為我不喜歡為什麼一直要談這句話因為太多人太多政治人物喜歡講新知平均數我覺得那個平均數是騙人的要看是要看新知的中位數所有內部統計學人都懂所以以現在的全民的那個新知的中位數來看其實人民其實是辛苦的相較於物價相較於房價我想麻煩院長你要注意這個部分"},{"start":604.349,"end":629.697,"text":"那我也跟您報告就是其實這個新清安房貸啊他現在在五大銀行裡面是將近四成的房貸都是新清安那這個會不會造成另外一個風險那是不是造成房價的推升也是要麻煩你們研究一下那我是不是可以要求院長這邊呢是不是可以做一個全面的住宅政策的規劃"},{"start":631.504,"end":631.844,"text":"房地合一2.0"},{"start":648.271,"end":674.785,"text":"或者是那種百萬社會財或是新清安這個其實邏輯上有一點衝突嘛有的是叫你租有的是叫你買邏輯上有一點小衝突啦當然你可能是說針對不同族群提供不同的政策但是我比較希望就是可不可以提出一個比較在下一次總諮詢前提出一個比較明確的方向能夠讓我們知道一下那個方向是包括到把一些現有發現的漏洞把它補起來"},{"start":675.319,"end":704,"text":"包括新金安這個政策他出原意當然是好的執行也有一定的成效只是現在的過程當中被一些有新的錯用的一些後來的發展那也已經請內政部我相關的金融單位也在全面的檢查這個事情當中好我想說新的涉宅的政策內政部也有一些新的構想我們會逐步的把它跟社會來說明也希望委員能夠多多指教下一次執行前能給我們一個比較明確的"},{"start":704.878,"end":725.567,"text":"的作法,這樣我們才會依循嘛,就知道接下來要怎麼做。好,那另外呢,我想請教一下就是有關房價之外,其實大家更思考的就是物價的問題。因為CPI它是最近的漲幅是很高嘛。那我們去看齁,主計處它2月下旬,它本來是預計是上漲1.85。"},{"start":727.988,"end":744.414,"text":"結果呢後來因為那個電價調漲的發案一出爐他後來就是預測是到2.03結果呢到5月的時候就是今年6月6號他發布5月的物價調查發現竟然高達2.24那其實這個已經突破那個2%的這個通膨警戒線"},{"start":750.933,"end":776.455,"text":"那我想我覺得這個通膨不管在全世界其實都是大家害怕的一個怪獸啊我們的薪資沒有漲的情況下其實通膨一直漲等於是他實質購買力都下降所以他實質所得也是下降的那這樣對國人其實傷害是不小啦那我之前在就是本期之前在那個國是論壇的時候其實有提到因為當時在講電價到底要不要漲"},{"start":777.176,"end":777.196,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":796.721,"end":824.147,"text":"而前面的政府對外面說影響不大那個電費調漲也不大對你們都不會影響這個也是騙人的嘛因為我家的家用電沒有調漲問題是我買的每一個產品他的整個供應鏈的電費都調漲了我家沒有漲物價還是會漲啊所以這樣子跟人民說沒有影響我覺得這個講這句話有點不負責任那當然跟院長您無關"},{"start":825.749,"end":853.69,"text":"我一直不認為說這個是應該這麼對外說一個負責任的政府應該是一個誠信的政府做對做錯都要承認那我自己對我個人的要求是我做錯事我就認錯我會很快跟人家道歉那我也希望說將來我面對的一個政府是這樣子好那那個我再請教院長我們提到物價飆漲這個部分院長你知不知道現在一顆蛋在外面售價多少錢就是在小吃店"},{"start":854.778,"end":879.122,"text":"是我家人知道多少錢嗎?我講10塊到15塊吧。對,現在其實差不多15塊,院長你真是蠻了解的。但是呢,產地價生雞蛋的產地價其實一斤跌到20幾塊。所以這個發生了一個問題就是,我在小吃店買一顆蛋,它的價格等於是生產地的幾乎是半斤的價格了。"},{"start":880.612,"end":895.488,"text":"那其實呢我自己觀察啦我自己覺得這個可能這個是跟院長您無關啦我是個人我自己研究我是覺得是跟前任的那個農業部陳吉仲部長比較有關聯性因為他的農業政策是"},{"start":896.529,"end":921.917,"text":"吳宗憲的農業政策不是做產銷的調控。反正他什麼出什麼事,院長沒關係,這不是你的論點,這是我的論點。我認為說我每次看到他就是補貼補貼補貼,哪裡出包就哪裡補貼。他從來不是做產銷的調控,那他也不是做那種長期的農糧政策的規劃。所以搞到現在反正出了事情就撒錢就好了。那他沒有想到很多東西起來之後物價是回不去的。"},{"start":922.637,"end":922.777,"text":"吳宗英"},{"start":935.936,"end":959.259,"text":"那個銷售到小吃店那加上成本什麼其實我覺得應該不是這麼高更何況現在雞蛋價已經跌到成本價以下所以很多人寧願把雞蛋拿去餵豬拿去丟掉他也不願意拿出來賣所以這是一個問題那請問一下你們現在對於這個那個這些通膨啊這些物價穩定物價小組到底還有沒有實際在運作"},{"start":961.401,"end":982.597,"text":"當然有,這是很重要的一環。我們看看CPI雖然到2.43左右,超過了大家心裡比較安心的2,這個數字已經超越,但是我們是在嚴密的監控當中,這可能也有季節性的。那至於說剛剛委員提到農業對農民的補助,我覺得部長有一句名言,農民不是補助。"},{"start":984.859,"end":1004.09,"text":"我跟委員報告,其實農業是對農民來講他是一個專業而且是要被尊敬的一個產業他不是靠補助而過活的一個產業所以未來農業的部分我想我們會真正的從整個產業的一個轉型跟升級來提高農民所得"},{"start":1006.514,"end":1031.51,"text":"OK那這樣就麻煩你們再多注意一下尤其是盡量不要再有什麼斑斑吃食斑那種日子再現因為不能把小朋友或軍人拿來當作去消耗這些農產品的這些人這樣子是不太對的那其實因為我為什麼要問這個問題因為我們這個小組的官網他最新版的資料還是113年4月30號下午4點30分由那個"},{"start":1037.669,"end":1063.566,"text":"鄭副院長他主持的會議所以這個部分我在想說是不是怎麼都沒有在運作那可能再麻煩你們再稍微注意一下那也要注意一下這個通膨的一個問題我們請部長先回去交通部長跟國防部長麻煩交通部長跟國防部長麻煩交通部、國防部兩位部長備選"},{"start":1065.194,"end":1083.951,"text":"接下來我想請教一下一個問題,大概就是這幾天比較熱門的一個小問題,也不是小問題,大問題。就是這個軟性男子,中國籍的軟性男子,他駕船跑到淡水河口待了51分鐘都沒有被發現。"},{"start":1087.837,"end":1097.616,"text":"這個跟民進黨的主軸抗中保台其實有一點點衝突耶因為你既然要抗中保台那你就要強化我們的防守能力啊"},{"start":1098.905,"end":1124.834,"text":"沒有那你強化防守能力的情況下怎麼會讓一艘船跑到淡水河口51分鐘卻沒有被發現因為這個是電影裡面才會出現的情節吼那雖然有懲處那請問一下那有沒有新的什麼措施啊有沒有新將來要怎麼預防這種事情報告委員我們已經啟動了原來已經啟動了司法的調查行政調查海委會也全部在啟動他已經做了處置了"},{"start":1125.094,"end":1125.214,"text":"根委員報告"},{"start":1141.392,"end":1162.807,"text":"事實上各國的coast guard都面對同樣的挑戰那我們當然會要求我們的海巡的同仁要零漏接但是零漏接是非常大的挑戰以韓國來講在韓國的泰安港也是中國的一艘小艇載了6個人結果在泰安港上岸了以後第5天才逮捕到第1個人"},{"start":1163.888,"end":1185.754,"text":"那當然這一次的漏接是人為的疏失,我們真的是完全不容許。但是我跟委員報告...我主要是要跟委員報告說第一個我們在談這件事情的時候請委員也共同給我們的海巡一個支持的力量。他仍然是我們的捍衛人手。沒關係,那我要說你們是新的措施。"},{"start":1191.136,"end":1215.324,"text":"我昨天還在立法院裡面幫錦霄海巡在那邊爭取他的所得替代率我怎麼會不愛他們請委員因為我很需要說明這一點之後那請大家放心因為必須請大家放心說這是一個非常值得信賴的捍衛海疆的部隊這是安平民心的一個非常重要的心理基礎"},{"start":1216.465,"end":1240.227,"text":"主委,那這個部分我是提一個想法啦,就是說,因為我大概這個部分我覺得是不是說他這個在辨識上面的一些問題,對不對?所以我們很希望,我們很希望在辨識上有新的措施。目前交通部這邊對於這個法規是只有20種頓以上的,只有20種頓以上才需要去設那個AIS系統,對不對?"},{"start":1241.628,"end":1260.713,"text":"那現在我有幾個想法,我不知道你們將來有沒有這個政策,就是如果這個狀況會發生的話,那是不是將來20總噸以下的小漁船,要不要用修法的方式也要求他們要去裝這個AIS的辨識系統?"},{"start":1262.791,"end":1279.446,"text":"還會不會有提出這樣的想法就AIS熱像儀如果能夠裝置在29小的漁船上面的話那這次的事件或許他就可以察覺出來他並非我們自己的船貨所以真的這一點還有已經提出他的檢討的說明但是現在就是我們要後續"},{"start":1280.219,"end":1280.799,"text":"有關20噸以下的小船要來裝攜帶式的AIS這一點"},{"start":1296.005,"end":1296.025,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":1321.411,"end":1321.871,"text":"委員長 農業部說明"},{"start":1347.944,"end":1347.964,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":1366.448,"end":1367.169,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲"},{"start":1395.686,"end":1400.11,"text":"委員放心,我們才剛剛宣布了兩個大案,才今年而已。我們一個案,一個案我們棄貨了982公斤,那另外一個案棄貨了八百九十幾公斤,這個詳細的數字我沒有記得很清楚,但是"},{"start":1420.427,"end":1436.12,"text":"我再跟委員報告齁就在月底齁連國外都會一起來肯定我們的企讀能力我們還會有新的我們還會有新的成績所以不要把這件事不要把這件事跳躍成對不要把這件事跳躍成說獨品槍枝獨品槍枝會長期不入不會的那我們現在談另外一個問題既然我們你們剛剛說那AIS系統我們可能要往小船上面去"},{"start":1448.911,"end":1451.112,"text":"對海巡來講是很重要的一個問題。"},{"start":1477.988,"end":1504.077,"text":"法規來去強制說不可以這樣做好那這個部分呢可能再麻煩你們瞭解一下這幾個問題第一個就是小船到底要不要裝第二個就是裝了以後他是不是裝能夠辨識為臺灣的船隻而不是每一次都以為是大陸的船隻靠近這部分再麻煩你們跟委員報告一件事情這個這一次我們在六海裡就發現這艘船這是確實的所以我們的監控系統是看得到他的"},{"start":1504.597,"end":1524.436,"text":"但是海委會認為這是一個人為上的疏失判定上的疏失所以我們要跟台灣國人講的是這個人為上的疏失以後請海委會如何去斷絕這種人為上的疏失加緊訓練加緊他的警覺性問題出來了就麻煩解決接下來我們請國防沒關係我再請教一個問題"},{"start":1527.694,"end":1541.358,"text":"部長,院長您知不知道那個2022年那個漢光38號軍演,它的主要目的是哪個部分?2022年還是2024年?就是漢光38號?今年是40號,你講的是38號。他主要的那個的假設是中國他用那個氣墊艇"},{"start":1556.003,"end":1570.294,"text":"從淡水河口進入我們國家的政軍中樞我想請教一下因為參酌到這一次發生的事情我想請問就是國防部這邊將來會不會有什麼因應的做法"},{"start":1571.115,"end":1598.874,"text":"因為啊這些如果氣墊船他全速衝到那個大稻埕碼頭的話我們如果從淡水河口來算大概15分鐘左右就會衝到了嘛那我當然有看到就是報紙有報導說那有一個做法就是把那個關路大橋炸掉來讓這個氣墊船無法進來這也是其中一項做法這沒有問題但是如果將來有類似像這種用小船快艇進來的時候也許這個"},{"start":1599.735,"end":1599.855,"text":"跟委員報告齁就是說"},{"start":1624.073,"end":1643.096,"text":"我們要區分出所謂灰色地帶的洗澡跟真正的從事這個軍事侵略這個行動兩個作為是不一樣的所以整個如果你想的是他整個氣墊船從淡水河口進來的話這是已經進入到軍事"},{"start":1644.155,"end":1644.175,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":1658.168,"end":1684.334,"text":"那在淡水的河口相關的佈置都會有適切的冰火力,然後會編組戰略部隊來應處這樣的一個狀況。但是詳細的部署,我想我不宜在這邊。那我想這一塊我在將來我再跟您請教,我想有一些東西也許公開場合也不適合去提,甚至私下也不適合告訴我,這我都可以理解。那我再請教一下就是這個院長,"},{"start":1685.563,"end":1709.459,"text":"最近常常大家講說第五縱隊,主委可以先回去了,第五縱隊這個啊,甚至到有官員也都出來去附和這句話。那我想請問一下,如果照大家所說的,台灣有10萬個第五縱隊的人數,那這個不是一個很荒謬的事嗎?10萬人你運作要多少經費啊?那部長你、院長你怎麼會?"},{"start":1711.055,"end":1737.676,"text":"就是底下的官員有的還附和這個民事和三立的這個報導然後他內文還寫到說所有兩岸情勢的官員透露出這個這個10萬人的這件事情那我覺得這個是不是有一個狀況就是要嘛你就叫我們的我們的國安局或誰去把這些人弄出來抓出來嘛要嘛你就應該叫NCC去管好這些媒體不要亂報嘛所以"},{"start":1739.997,"end":1754.999,"text":"你之前在當主席的時候其實你也有提過一個東西你就說如果這個NCC無法加強管理就要換個人甚至改變體制那今天發生這個狀況你說我們第五縱隊有什麼"},{"start":1755.8,"end":1770.827,"text":"十萬人,結果你底下的官員還去跟人家附和這一句話,結果你人也不抓,十萬人你總抓個五百人出來嘛,人也不抓,然後NCC也不管,那我實在不知道這個跟你當初的想法怎麼會差距那麼遠,我覺得啦齁"},{"start":1771.787,"end":1800.455,"text":"包括像NCC對那個王逸川他這次提到的這個手機監控這個齁NCC要做行政調查說這個我也完全對NCC沒有任何信任度了也不期待啦齁但是我是希望一件事如果照院長您之前當黨主席時候的說NCC管不好那就換人甚至改變體制那也請院長齁能夠支持我們這次對於NCC組織法的的修正好啦那最後齁那個"},{"start":1802.027,"end":1825.454,"text":"請那個外交部長我想請問一下那個外交部長跟國防部長兩位當初在國會改革法案的時候是不是也有提過爭取聽證權、調查權跟這個罰環還有刑責的設計是或不是就可以時間打差我想內容是不一樣的"},{"start":1827.138,"end":1837.283,"text":"吳宗憲委員,因為是外交部田次長,部長請假,現在是次長。好的,好的,您要什麼書面資料的話,好。謝謝吳宗憲委員執行,謝謝卓院長的備詢。報告委員會本日排定的質詢的委員均已質詢完畢。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}