{"error":false,"id":["154051"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154051,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154051","日期":"2024-06-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-28","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":28,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-17T09:31:35+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-17T09:41:47+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:12","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/730d19f328ad3b925462b09ca589295aafafc43ba26a3505ac325f7d216cff332c0accd11298d9845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:31:35 - 09:41:47","會議時間":"2024-06-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國防部報告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢。【報告秘密，詢答「先秘密、後公開」】）","gazette":{"lineno":114,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時31分）謝謝主席，麻煩顧立雄部長。"],["主席：有請部長，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。有關每個年度要報告的海空戰力提升計畫裡面，根據你們提列的報告，你們要來報告預算條例，請主計長也上來，也要把執行成效報告進來，主計長來。"],["顧部長立雄：主計局。"],["王委員定宇：待會這個部分的數據要請教一下，第一個，主計長邊走邊聽我問，我們這一個特別預算條例裡面所列的預算跟我們年度的總預算其實都要納入國家舉債上限，是這樣子嗎？"],["謝局長其賢：是。"],["王委員定宇：它沒辦法迴避嘛？"],["謝局長其賢：是的。"],["王委員定宇：對，就是我們的舉債上限沒辦法迴避，還是在國家整個財務控管下，它要經過立法院同意，那要不要經過審計？"],["謝局長其賢：要。"],["王委員定宇：也要經過審計。"],["謝局長其賢：是。"],["王委員定宇：然後每一年還是要報告進度跟成效嘛？"],["謝局長其賢：是。"],["王委員定宇：事實上，特別預算在我們的預算法裡面其實跟總預算一樣，它就是一個法定的編列預算方式，大概用於跨年度或者比較重要的科目，它沒辦法在年度預算裡面編列才來執行。所以我建議主計單位對於特別預算的法源，它的預算金額從來就不能成為小金庫、從來也不能迴避監督，它都要納入舉債上限計算，最後審計也要看、年度報告也要看、決算也是要看嘛，所以跟總預算應該都一樣吧？"],["謝局長其賢：是。"],["王委員定宇：因為用到特別預算，除了天災、振興、疫情以外，其實未來最常用到的應該都是國防部，所以我建議主計部分說清楚。"],["謝局長其賢：是。"],["王委員定宇：接下來我請教部長，這一次提出的執行成效報告總共8類10項，其中有一個是說除了高效能艦艇儎臺，這個大概講的就是沱江啦，除高效能艦艇儎臺外，執行成效達到94%，彈體取得已經到100%，所以第一個問題是，高效能艦艇現在的進度到底怎麼樣？"],["顧部長立雄：高效能艦艇……"],["王委員定宇：因為你上面沒有單獨把它列出來，它到底進度達到百分之多少？"],["顧部長立雄：據我瞭解，5艘都已經交付了。"],["王委員定宇：都交付了嘛，所以它現在的進度是多少？你報告沒有這個數據，你上面只寫除儎臺外的執行成效94%，那高效能儎臺已經解決了嗎？我們現在是要6艘嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：對，他的報告我第一次看的時候也是有一點那個，但是他的意思應該是，如果算到去年年底是百分之九十四點多，但是到今年的3月，全部6艘都已經交艦，就是1艘原型加5艘全部都交艦了。"],["王委員定宇：那你這個報告是最近交進來的，為什麼還在寫去年的94%？對麥克風回答，你懂我意思嗎？那段文字我看不懂啦！"],["張院長忠誠：跟委員報告一下，因為我們就是以112年的執行成效，因為標題是112。"],["王委員定宇：所以現在報告的是112年會計年度裡面的執行成效？"],["張院長忠誠：對，確實……"],["王委員定宇：那這樣本席可以接受，就是到去年底儎臺可能有一些設備還沒辦法取得，所以你把它先扣除的執行成效是94%，但是在今年3月都開始追上進度了。"],["張院長忠誠：已經全部……"],["王委員定宇：這樣詮釋是對的？"],["張院長忠誠：是的。"],["王委員定宇：另外，我們希望透過這個促進我們國內的經濟嘛，釋商預計498.5億，你們報告裡面說執行成效是408.3億、成效是81.9%，其實落差20%左右還蠻大的，這個釋商為什麼有兩成無法釋出？是我們國內廠商沒有意願、技術不足，還是有什麼樣的困難？"],["張院長忠誠：跟委員報告，當初我們在預估釋商金額的時候，是以公告招標的錢來算，也就是以我們的預算來算，但是經過整個……我現在寫的是……"],["王委員定宇：裡面八十多億沒有釋商耶！"],["張院長忠誠：是決標價！前面是用公告的金額來算。"],["王委員定宇：所以項目上是不是全部釋商了？"],["張院長忠誠：全部釋商！"],["王委員定宇：但是因為你用招標的，所以有的85折、有的82折……"],["張院長忠誠：沒錯、沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：所以金額就沒有達到那邊。"],["張院長忠誠：對！但事實上我的公告金額是501億。"],["王委員定宇：那我會建議報告可以寫詳盡一點，就是你釋商的科項目全部都釋商完成，但因為招標金額不可能百分之百一樣嘛，因為你們不是全部都最有利標，有的是價格標，那價格標打折下來就剩下81.9%。"],["張院長忠誠：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以你們原來預估的價格？"],["張院長忠誠：是501。"],["王委員定宇：我的意思是說你們預估的價格偏高。"],["張院長忠誠：報告委員，因為當初報的就是用公告……"],["王委員定宇：不是，你們通常會報比較高，他們來標的時候還打了8折。"],["張院長忠誠：另外再跟委員報告，為什麼還有一些差距？因為海空戰力提升以後，中科院就回歸了……"],["王委員定宇：院長，還有沒有項目沒有釋商？"],["張院長忠誠：目前就是按照進度，現在……"],["王委員定宇：不！你剛才的回答會讓我誤以為全部的項目都釋商了，只是招標額度打折而已啊，有沒有項目沒有釋商？"],["張院長忠誠：沒有，幾乎該採購都採購了。"],["王委員定宇：我不要幾乎這種答案，有沒有項目還沒有釋商？"],["張院長忠誠：沒有！該做的……"],["王委員定宇：全部都釋商了？"],["張院長忠誠：對，113（今）年度還是有釋商的金額……"],["王委員定宇：當然，我們現在講去年度的嘛。"],["張院長忠誠：對，去年度全部都釋商了。"],["王委員定宇：我要問有關這個報告的最後一個問題就是，我們因應這一個海空戰力提升，不管是雄風、各類彈體的製造、儎臺的製造，產線的產能有提升吧？"],["張院長忠誠：有。"],["王委員定宇：產線的產能包含人員、包含產線的裝備都提升了，我現在請問，如果我們這一個計畫結束之後，有關提升的產能、增加的人力，你們後續打算怎麼辦？"],["張院長忠誠：跟委員報告，在人力方面，因為我們現在是採用不定期契約的方式來進人，就是為了……"],["王委員定宇：你這樣講，現在在中科院上班的員工馬上想到下一個問題是什麼？結束我就結束了耶、我就沒工作了。"],["張院長忠誠：跟委員報告，這些海空戰力提升的員額我們用定契的方式，有3年的、有5年的、有2年的，我們依照法規……"],["王委員定宇：所以你們產能提升，當這個計畫結束了，這些技術工契約到期就不予續約、就沒有了嗎？"],["張院長忠誠：我們有配套措施，這些人我們還有擇優錄用的方式，如果說他表現得不錯。"],["王委員定宇：擇優錄用跟契約到期不續約的百分比多少？"],["張院長忠誠：目前大概三分之一留用。"],["王委員定宇：所以有三分之一可以留用？"],["張院長忠誠：有三分之一。"],["王委員定宇：表現好的可以留用？"],["張院長忠誠：是的。"],["王委員定宇：還是特殊專長可以留用？"],["張院長忠誠：表現好、特殊專長，但是這有評比。"],["王委員定宇：院長，這些東西不能含糊啦！"],["張院長忠誠：沒有。"],["王委員定宇：不能說大概、幾乎、好像可以，你知道這牽涉到你現在帶的人的軍心能不能穩定，接下來我們國防產業是永續性的，本席給你一個具體的建議，你的產能提升不是只有人，還有裝備都提升了，那你這些契約工到期了不續用，那這些提升產能的裝備就閒置在那裡，就像我們以前製造120榴彈砲的東西就封在那邊，機器是會老、會壞的！"],["張院長忠誠：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以一方面，是不是要尋求怎麼樣去繼續生產、製造；二方面，對於優秀的技術工，我們民間如果有相關的產業，你們事實上要結合、輔導他去就業，不要讓自己的員工努力了三年、五年，他覺得契約到了大概就沒有明天了，那會產生一些問題喔，這個我一定要提醒中科院。"],["張院長忠誠：謝謝委員指導，會再考量。"],["王委員定宇：這部分……你請回。我回到部長，部長，除了這個海空戰力提升計畫以外，我現在舉一個項目是我們對美採購的拖式飛彈，拖式2B飛彈大概是新型的，過去是線性在拖，有時候碰到海水會有些干擾等等。就我們看到的計畫期程，拖式飛彈2B從2018年起案至今是零籌獲，原因是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：就是它剛開始出來的時候，測評好像有點問題，不過現在這個測評已經過了，所以預計在今年的年底以前會全數交易。"],["王委員定宇：會全數一次交貨嗎？因為已經六、七年了。"],["顧部長立雄：對，沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：好像是它生產出來的品質沒有達標啦！"],["顧部長立雄：這個是屬於我們三項重大延宕裡面其中一款，但是現在測評過了之後，應該是在第四季，也就是年底之前應該會全數交易。"],["王委員定宇：它測評沒過是美軍那邊測的？不是我們吧？"],["顧部長立雄：美軍那邊測的。"],["王委員定宇：所以是美國的製造商製造拖式2B出來，美軍做品管把關測評沒有過？通通退貨重來？"],["顧部長立雄：對，美軍測評沒有過，後來再重新改進之後，在年底以前會全數交易。"],["王委員定宇：所以這個案子在今年底應該可以結案，全部都可以取得？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：全部的拖式2B？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：那另外兩個案子呢？"],["顧部長立雄：關於F-16就您所理解的，現在就是要在今年第四季產出2架原型機之後做飛行測試，我們還是要求在2026年年底以前全數交易。"],["王委員定宇：要全數交付。"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["王委員定宇：好，相關細節我有空再跟部長請教，因為拖式2B的原因是在那邊的生產，好像品質有瑕疵出了問題，美軍測評沒過，後來重新生產再交付過來，我會建議我們軍方接貨的時候，我們大概QC品管也要做一下、也要看一下，我們自己也要評一下。"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們要拿來……"],["王委員定宇：謝謝部長，我們要拿來測一下，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇委員、謝謝部長。接下來有請林楚茵委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-28","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","黃仁","馬文君","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","羅美玲","洪申翰","張啓楷","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","翁曉玲","林憶君"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-06-17"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢；二、邀請國防部報\n告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136301_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":1.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.6297187500000003,"end":3.6253437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.974718750000001,"end":9.818468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.953468750000003,"end":10.814093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.320343750000003,"end":12.585968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.10909375,"end":16.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.074718750000002,"end":28.667843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.97159375,"end":31.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.650343750000005,"end":34.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.11409375,"end":37.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.033468750000004,"end":39.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.53096875,"end":44.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.15471875,"end":45.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.16721875,"end":47.820968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.820968750000006,"end":48.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.17534375,"end":54.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.04346875,"end":56.174093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.98409375000001,"end":57.203468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.203468750000006,"end":82.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.24159375,"end":96.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.50534375000001,"end":102.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.69846875,"end":115.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.20784375000001,"end":110.35971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.55284375000001,"end":125.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.49221875,"end":128.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.36096875,"end":130.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.06534375,"end":133.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.88346875000002,"end":134.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.53721875000002,"end":137.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.47346875,"end":143.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.45221875000001,"end":139.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.21971875,"end":146.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.22346875,"end":149.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.71221875,"end":156.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.81659375,"end":175.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.11159375,"end":159.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.80159375000002,"end":171.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.15971875000002,"end":179.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.53034375000001,"end":180.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.72846875000002,"end":181.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.94346875000002,"end":181.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.99409375000002,"end":182.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.01096875000002,"end":182.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.48346875000001,"end":190.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.58471875,"end":183.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.55409375000002,"end":199.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.09346875,"end":195.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.20284375,"end":197.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.03346875000003,"end":212.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.27346875,"end":203.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.16346875000002,"end":205.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.33096875,"end":215.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.92971875,"end":218.15721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.24159375000002,"end":220.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.29596875000001,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.96409375000002,"end":254.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.38409375,"end":253.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.07971875,"end":256.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.61534375,"end":260.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.41659375,"end":286.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.84659375,"end":262.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.79159375,"end":263.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.91784375000003,"end":265.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.99784375,"end":267.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.22471875,"end":272.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.31721875,"end":274.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.81409375000004,"end":282.11346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以留用是的還是特殊專長可以留用表現好特殊專長但是他有評比院長這些東西不能含糊不能說大概幾乎好像可以你知道這牽涉到你現在帶的人他的軍心能不能穩定接下來我們國防產業是永續性的本期給你一個具體的建議你產能提升不是只有人你還裝備都提升了那你這些契約工到期了不去用"},{"start":438.18,"end":438.2,"text":"拜訪議員．"},{"start":454.275,"end":474.365,"text":" ﹏二方面我們優秀的技術工我們民間如果有相關的產業你們事實上要結合輔導他去就業不要讓自己的員工努力了三年五年他覺得契約到了我大概就沒有明天了那會產生一些問題這個我一定要提醒工科院是有在考量好這個部分請回我回到部長"},{"start":475.865,"end":496.276,"text":"部長我們除了這個海空戰力提升計畫以外呢我現在舉一個項目是我們對美採購的托式飛彈托式2B飛彈大概是新型的要過去是線性在拖有時候碰到海水會有些干擾等等那就我們看到的計畫其成從2018年起案至今"},{"start":497.745,"end":526.26,"text":"都還是沒有籌獲到任何的就脫勢非但二逼從2018年起案至今是零籌獲原因是什麼就是它剛開始出來的時候測評好像有點問題不過現在這個測評已經過了所以預計在今年的年底以前全數會交易全數一次交過嗎因為已經六、七年了好像是它生產出來的品質沒有達標了"},{"start":527.06,"end":540.358,"text":"這個是屬於我們三項重大延宕的裡面其中一塊但是現在測評過了之後應該是在第四季也就是年底之前應該會全數交易他測評沒過是美軍那邊測的不是我們嗎?"},{"start":542.541,"end":564.107,"text":"所以是美國的製造商托斯2B製造出來,美軍做評判把關,測評沒有過,通通退貨重來。然後後來再重新再改進之後,那現在在年底以前會全數交易。所以這一個案子在今年底應該可以結案,全部都可以取得。是。全部的托斯2B。是。那另外兩個案子呢?"},{"start":565.53,"end":581.207,"text":"另外一個F16那個就您理解了現在就是說要在今年的第10季產出第二架原型機之後做飛行測試那我們還是要求在2026年年底全速交運好 相為細節我有空再跟部長請教"},{"start":581.988,"end":583.388,"text":"謝謝王定宇委員 謝謝部長接下來有請林楚瑩委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}